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dmprantz
06-19-2013, 04:13 PM
I know I'm sticking my hand in the snake pit with this, but it has become a wtf moment for me. In a different thread some one referenced KCBS BOD QuickNotes where an organizer's punishment for some irregularity was to make an extra $400 payout and then all was well. For some reason I decided to follow the link and read the rest of the quick notes, and something in them has me shocked, but I guess it shouldn't.

Most here know that KCBS banned me from competing for three years because of something that some one on my team did. I was the head cook and got caught in a bad situation beyond my control, but I wanted to make sure that's out there. The background to this is that two months prior, a KCBS rep cheated by falsifying score cards. The result was that the reps involved were fired and told that they could reapply in one year.

After I was punished I brought up how strange it was that I was banned for three years because of an apron that I didn't wear, and a rep who cheated was banned for only one. Multiple people on the BOD told me that this happened because reps could only be retrained or fired, and that the rules allowed them to reapply, but that acceptance was not guarenteed.

Well guess what: Less than a year since the termination, one of the reps involved with the falsifying of scores applied to be reinstated as a Rep in Training, and the board approved! It wasn't unanimous, (Farrin, Compton, and Harwell voted no), but really? After all the statements that applying didn't mean acceptance, a rep involved with falsifying scores gets let in less than a year later, and a head cook who had a team member wear an apron gets three years plus probation?

I hope every one who stood behind the board and felt that an apron hurt the product that the KCBS offerred is glad to know that according to the board, cheating and ethics hurt the product less. Enjoy your pure and clean sport.

dmp

dmprantz
06-19-2013, 04:17 PM
And now I wait for people to tell me that I'm just bitter and it it isn't a problem to punish those involved with cheating less than those involved with offensive clothing.

dmp

deguerre
06-19-2013, 04:17 PM
How can you trust an organization that thinks chicken is BBQ in the first place?:confused:





























:bolt:

nthole
06-19-2013, 04:18 PM
Wow. That does make one scratch their head. Well, not really. The 'cheater' was part of 'management'. You're a peon tax payer. Good to see the KCBS board is closely aligned with the American way.

deguerre
06-19-2013, 04:19 PM
Seriously though. I'd be considering going postal if I was in your shoes and I wasn't afraid of prison...

little bit of r & r
06-19-2013, 04:35 PM
I have always said something is wrong with reps hanging out with teams on Friday and I was hammered for suggesting it I guess it happens a lot more than I thought.

Scottie
06-19-2013, 04:40 PM
If I may. ... just because I have a twisted sense of humor...

Way to stick their nuts out by voting no. :shock: seriously though. I do applaud them for the no vote. That rep must have pictures is all I can say!!!! :evil:

Uomograsso
06-19-2013, 05:17 PM
It's all part of the Good Ole Boy network. Or kind of like MLB where you if you use drugs you will be banned, re-instated, banned, re-instated, etc., but lord help you if you gamble, you will be banned for life with no possibility of re-instatement.

Pappy Q
06-19-2013, 05:20 PM
A couple of contest ago I experienced horrible KCBS reps. My plan was to complain to KCBS, while looking up the info to do that, I noticed the Rep in question was a BOD, so I figured it would be a waste of time. I did complain to the contest organizer who said he had received numerous complaints about the Reps and would not be inviting them back.

dmprantz
06-19-2013, 05:31 PM
I'm pretty sure I know the comp and the rep. That person has been at the center of several things lately. Personally, I pay attention to trends. With all the other incidents going on, I'd recommend letting the BOD know just in case they do too.

dmp

Wampus
06-19-2013, 05:34 PM
:tsk:

drbbq
06-19-2013, 06:38 PM
I do appreciate the guys that voted no, but the rest prove that it's the same old same old good ole boy way. Did Jeff Stith vote yes? he's always been a straight shooter around here. Maybe he can enlighten us.

landarc
06-19-2013, 06:53 PM
Well, DMP, that is a good question, it does seem that a rep that has definitely cheated, should serve something more than a year away.

I also know about the apron thing, and think 3 years is too much. The apron was not in good judgement, but, a 3 year ban for not stopping it seems too far, always did.

nthole
06-19-2013, 08:04 PM
dmp have you considered applying for reinstatement? Every...single...day. Make a game of it. Use a different email address for each day.

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-19-2013, 08:55 PM
Doug accepted his punishment like a man, I would have told every one where to stuff it.

I say shame on all of the yes votes. They should be embarrassed. Thanks for calling them out.

hogzillas
06-19-2013, 08:57 PM
My thoughts would be try for reinstatement, whats the worst they can say??? Bring up the rep issue as I do remember some of the apron incident being mentioned around but don't know/remember all the facts but I would consider it much more minor than what the rep did. Are they hurting for reps vs contestants???

nthole
06-19-2013, 08:59 PM
Are they hurting for reps vs contestants???

Does that even remotely matter when it comes to a rep cheating in some form?

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 09:17 PM
Still on the newer side of competition experience so forgive the question but.........

You were kicked out of KCBS for 3 years because of an apron?? What exactly about wearing an apron is a problem??

landarc
06-19-2013, 09:23 PM
Does that even remotely matter when it comes to a rep cheating in some form?
Of course it does.

fnbish
06-19-2013, 09:24 PM
Still on the newer side of competition experience so forgive the question but.........

You were kicked out of KCBS for 3 years because of an apron?? What exactly about wearing an apron is a problem??

Check out this thread. It apparently was a penis apron.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141539

dmprantz
06-19-2013, 09:25 PM
You were kicked out of KCBS for 3 years because of an apron?? What exactly about wearing an apron is a problem??

In an attempt to avoid another 18 page thread on the topic, some one on another team dared some one else on my team to accept an award while wearing an adult themed apron (fabric men's genitalia). I had no part in it, but both the team member and I were banned for three years from competing, to be followed up by two years of probation. The reason for my punishment is that I was the "head cook" on the application and some people on the BOD felt that it meant I was required to be punished for some one else's actions. The person who provided the apron and the dare received one year probation.

If any one feels that I have mis-represented the facts above, let me know, but please no arguing over opinions. This is not about me so much as honourable KCBS and how important ethics are to the sanctity of the game and the reputation of the organization.

dmp

landarc
06-19-2013, 09:25 PM
Still on the newer side of competition experience so forgive the question but.........

You were kicked out of KCBS for 3 years because of an apron?? What exactly about wearing an apron is a problem??
It wasn't about wearing an apron, it was about the chosen apron. It turned into a big deal. I'll let DMP answer more if he chooses. Oh, and he did not wear the apron, a member of his team did.

dmprantz
06-19-2013, 09:37 PM
And for the sake of clarity....

There was a motion brought up to the BOD in March to reduce my ban from three years to one year. Almost every one who voted to reinstate the rep fired for cheating less than a year ago felt it was appropriate to keep my ban at three years. The point is that six people on the current board felt that one year was enough for cheating, but not for inpropriety through association.

dmp

ique
06-19-2013, 09:38 PM
The background to this is that two months prior, a KCBS rep cheated by falsifying score cards. The result was that the reps involved were fired and told that they could reapply in one year.



Name of the Rep? I'd like to avoid contests that they rep.

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 09:40 PM
Check out this thread. It apparently was a penis apron.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141539


Thanks.........I have no tolerance for idiots of that ilk. A permanent ban would have gotten a "yes" vote from me.

Grow up or stay home.

Sorry if you got caught in your pals stupidity but you are in charge.

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 09:43 PM
What's the background on the cheating rep?? Forged score cards how??......to let some team he knows win or what??

Permanent ban should have been handed out for that as well.

Once a cheat........always a cheat.

landarc
06-19-2013, 09:46 PM
Thanks.........I have no tolerance for idiots of that ilk. A permanent ban would have gotten a "yes" vote from me.

Grow up or stay home.

Sorry if you got caught in your pals stupidity but you are in charge.
Wow, that is pretty harsh. There are a lot of things that can and do happen at BBQ comps, some are pretty juvenile. A permanent ban, that goes pretty far for something that is, at best, poor judgement.

JD McGee
06-19-2013, 09:46 PM
Good on ya brother! Nice to know I'm not the only black sheep in a BBQ association that calls out the low-lifes...:clap:

dmprantz
06-19-2013, 09:51 PM
Thanks.........I have no tolerance for idiots of that ilk. A permanent ban would have gotten a "yes" vote from me.

Grow up or stay home.

Sorry if you got caught in your pals stupidity but you are in charge.

Like you said, you just got started in competition BBQ, so I'll give you a pass on the the ignorance you show by ASSuming that you know anything about the organization of every BBQ team out there, because the assertion that I was "in charge" of anything shows exactly how little you know. I was the guy on the team who filled out the paper work. Nothing more.

In addition to that, I'll wish you exactly as much success in your competitive BBQ career as as the amount of logic, thought, and understanding you have shown in your two posts on this thread.

I said I didn't want another long thread discussing the merrits of my punishment, and I meant it. I guess I've allowed myself to get sucked into it, but if you wanna get on a soap box to complain about how you stand behind my punishment, please do it on another thread. This is about the fact that the punishment was harsher than for cheaters.

dmp

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 09:56 PM
Wow, that is pretty harsh. There are a lot of things that can and do happen at BBQ comps, some are pretty juvenile. A permanent ban, that goes pretty far for something that is, at best, poor judgement.

I don't think it's harsh at all. This isn't Saturday night at 2 am with a couple teams hanging around a fire or cooker sharing a few too many beers. This is the awards ceremony where parents, kids, and families gather to celebrate the weekends efforts and congratulate the winners.

It's not a frat house.........baseline decency and maturity are all that is needed to fit in and this guy couldn't even muster up the brain power to get that far.

Sorry, but no sympathy here.

kenthanson
06-19-2013, 10:00 PM
Atlasman please take it somewhere please.

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 10:06 PM
Like you said, you just got started in competition BBQ, so I'll give you a pass on the the ignorance you show by ASSuming that you know anything about the organization of every BBQ team out there, because the assertion that I was "in charge" of anything shows exactly how little you know. I was the guy on the team who filled out the paper work. Nothing more.

In addition to that, I'll wish you exactly as much success in your competitive BBQ career as as the amount of logic, thought, and understanding you have shown in your two posts on this thread.

I said I didn't want another long thread discussing the merrits of my punishment, and I meant it. I guess I've allowed myself to get sucked into it, but if you wanna get on a soap box to complain about how you stand behind my punishment, please do it on another thread. This is about the fact that the punishment was harsher than for cheaters.

dmp


I'm the head cook of my team and I am in charge and responsible for everything and anything we do. If someone on my team does something to break the rules or be an event ruining idiot I would expect to be held responsible myself. Who the hell else is supposed to be responsible for the clowns YOU choose to bring to the party??

Despite your ill wishes (classy).......our team is doing just fine in competition.

You want to go on pretending you share no responsibility for the actions of your team members then fine..........have fun in denial. They make someone sign up as the head cook for a reason.

CarolinaQue
06-19-2013, 10:07 PM
I don't think it's harsh at all. This isn't Saturday night at 2 am with a couple teams hanging around a fire or cooker sharing a few too many beers. This is the awards ceremony where parents, kids, and families gather to celebrate the weekends efforts and congratulate the winners.

It's not a frat house.........baseline decency and maturity are all that is needed to fit in and this guy couldn't even muster up the brain power to get that far.

Sorry, but no sympathy here.



Did you happen to read the thread about how this all started? If not, I'll fill you in that dmpratz wasn't even at the awards ceremony and never knew until after that some one on his team did some things immature and stupid. He simply got caught in the crossfire because he was listed as the "head cook" on the paper work.

He was more than willing to accept a punishment of some sort, but many felt that the 3 year ban was very excessive. Now, only to have salt thrown on the wound with the latest regarding the cheating rep issue.

Sorry to hear of this dmp. I'm starting to think that my temporary break from competing due to work may turn into a permanent break if it means financially and indirectly supporting KCBS through sanctioned competing.

dmprantz
06-19-2013, 10:11 PM
dmpratz wasn't even at the awards ceremony and never knew until after that some one on his team did some things immature and stupid. He simply got caught in the crossfire because he was listed as the "head cook" on the paper work.


Thank you for the kind words, and again not wanting to relive previous threads, but for the sake of honesty, I was at awards. I did not walk to awards with my teamate, and I did not sit with him at awards. I didn't even see the apron because I was in the back. I did not realize that there were any issues until I went up to get my score sheet and was told I would probably be banned for one year for something I didn't do because I wrote my name on a piece paper. There's always gotta some one to blame, because that makes life easier. Even if it's wrong.

dmp

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 10:16 PM
Did you happen to read the thread about how this all started? If not, I'll fill you in that dmpratz wasn't even at the awards ceremony and never knew until after that some one on his team did some things immature and stupid. He simply got caught in the crossfire because he was listed as the "head cook" on the paper work.

He was more than willing to accept a punishment of some sort, but many felt that the 3 year ban was very excessive. Now, only to have salt thrown on the wound with the latest regarding the cheating rep issue.

Sorry to hear of this dmp. I'm starting to think that my temporary break from competing due to work may turn into a permanent break if it means financially and indirectly supporting KCBS through sanctioned competing.


Yes, I read it..............I also said sorry he got caught up in his teammates stupidity.

Head cooks are in charge for a reason. I think he was lucky to get away with a 3 year ban. I also think its BS the cheating KCBS guy only got a year.

He started the thread...........don't blame the people who are just speaking honestly and not being cheerleaders just because he's a fellow cook.

We're all grown ups........stuff like this shouldn't even be in realm of possibility but unfortunately it still is.

nthole
06-19-2013, 10:38 PM
Yes, I read it..............I also said sorry he got caught up in his teammates stupidity.

Head cooks are in charge for a reason. I think he was lucky to get away with a 3 year ban. I also think its BS the cheating KCBS guy only got a year.

He started the thread...........don't blame the people who are just speaking honestly and not being cheerleaders just because he's a fellow cook.

We're all grown ups........stuff like this shouldn't even be in realm of possibility but unfortunately it still is.

I hope none of your associates ever make a mistake. But I guess if they do it will be interesting to see you appeal your ban. A wise Man once told me while laughing that some thought the glass was half empty and others argued it was half full. When I asked why he was laughing, he nearly bust a gut before he told me... I pissed in the glass.

Walk a mile in another shoes bro.

kenthanson
06-19-2013, 10:43 PM
[QUOTE=Atlasman;2522302].

He started the thread...........don't blame the people who are just speaking honestly and not being cheerleaders just because he's a fellow cook.

We're all grown ups.../QUOTE]

He also asked specifically that this thread not turn into another thread about what happened last year, and as an adult you should respect that, since we're all grown ups.

JazzyBadger
06-19-2013, 10:46 PM
Cheating judges should get a stiffer punishment, hands down. I read that original thread awhile back, and it still boggles my mind that they didn't just hand out a lifetime ban to the guy who was acting in such a lewd fashion.

While we're on the "Had it been me" shtick, had it been me I'd have announced the apron wearer supreme commander of the competition, and handed him Eleventy billion dollars. :heh:

Iso
06-19-2013, 10:51 PM
Disappointing to hear of this about the KCBS. Up here in the Pacific Northwest we are hurting for event reps. Events have to fly at least one in for contests. I would be absolutely livid to the point of bringing in legal counsel if I, as a contest organizer, caught the event rep changing scores or cheating in any way at my event. In many ways what this rep is accused of is far worse than the great apron incident. It reflects poorly on the KCBS and even more so on the event organizer.

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 10:52 PM
I hope none of your associates ever make a mistake. But I guess if they do it will be interesting to see you appeal your ban. A wise Man once told me while laughing that some thought the glass was half empty and others argued it was half full. When I asked why he was laughing, he nearly bust a gut before he told me... I pissed in the glass.

Walk a mile in another shoes bro.


A "mistake"???

Wearing fake male genitals in front of people's families, and young children is not a "mistake". You are either drunk, an idiot or both if you think that is acceptable public behavior in front of women and children.

If someone on my team makes a mistake I will take full responsibility.......you do every time you let someone else watch over what goes in the box, you get that score or DQ weather or not you would have done the same. That's why there is a HEAD cook.

I am a pharmacist........I live by these rules every day. I could do everything right and have an untrained kid at the register give out the wrong bag to someone with a drug that hurts or god forbid kills them. Guess who the pharmacy board, the lawyers and corporate are gonna want to talk to. You think they are going to care if it was because some 17 year old kid grabbed the wrong bag?? NOPE!!!!! I am in charge so EVERY aspect of that pharmacy is my responsibility good-bad-right or wrong.

It's called being an adult............besides that I don't have to worry about anyone on my team EVER doing something so stupid because I simply don't associate with people like that.

Makes life more fun :smile:

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-19-2013, 10:53 PM
Atlasman, you are totally out of line. You were asked to stay on topic or take it some where else. Show some respect.

nthole
06-19-2013, 10:57 PM
A "mistake"???

Wearing fake male genitals in front of people's families, and young children is not a "mistake". You are either drunk, an idiot or both if you think that is acceptable public behavior in front of women and children.

If someone on my team makes a mistake I will take full responsibility.......you do every time you let someone else watch over what goes in the box, you get that score or DQ weather or not you would have done the same. That's why there is a HEAD cook.

I am a pharmacist........I live by these rules every day. I could do everything right and have an untrained kid at the register give out the wrong bag to someone with a drug that hurts or god forbid kills them. Guess who the pharmacy board, the lawyers and corporate are gonna want to talk to. You think they are going to care if it was because some 17 year old kid grabbed the wrong bag?? NOPE!!!!! I am in charge so EVERY aspect of that pharmacy is my responsibility good-bad-right or wrong.

It's called being an adult............besides that I don't have to worry about anyone on my team EVER doing something so stupid because I simply don't associate with people like that.

Makes life more fun :smile:

An error in judgement is a mistake. Not everyone walks the black and white line you do.

Peace out.

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 10:58 PM
Not trying to pile on you dude. Just no tolerance for your teammates kind of behavior in public.

Sucks that you are paying the price for his actions and the cheating KCBS guy is back on the circuit. Equally appalling behavior IMO.

kenthanson
06-19-2013, 11:02 PM
Not trying to pile on you dude. Just no tolerance for your teammates mind of behavior in public.

Sucks that you are paying the price for his actions and the cheating KCBS guy is back on the circuit. Equally appalling behavior IMO.

I think you've said enough.

Atlasman
06-19-2013, 11:11 PM
[QUOTE=Atlasman;2522302].

He started the thread...........don't blame the people who are just speaking honestly and not being cheerleaders just because he's a fellow cook.

We're all grown ups.../QUOTE]

He also asked specifically that this thread not turn into another thread about what happened last year, and as an adult you should respect that, since we're all grown ups.

He started the thread saying he knows he's sticking his hand in the snake pit with this one...........and ends it with a sarcastic jab at the entire process we all love competing in. I can understand from his perspective how he wouldn't want anything but cheer leading for his opinion but not everyone agrees.

I don't think I have said anything disrespectful or in poor taste. Sorry if anyone was offended by the opinions I voiced.

kenthanson
06-19-2013, 11:24 PM
Like talking to a wall. :blah:

Fat Freddy
06-19-2013, 11:36 PM
Name of the Rep? I'd like to avoid contests that they rep.

If you are really wondering Chris I wont drop names, but what I will say is maybe if you happen to look at KCBS events in Nebraska in 2012 and accidentally look at reps at say the North Platte contest, you might be on the right track.

dmprantz
06-19-2013, 11:45 PM
To those who say that I should ask for reinstatement, I respectfully suggest that you are missing my point.

The previous board fired this rep and put it in the notes that he could apply in one year. Heck they practically encouraged him to do so. Then they turned around and banned me for three years. They had multiple opportunities to reduce the punishment against me, and decided not to.

The current board had the opportunity to reduce the punishment against me in March and decided not to. I believe the suggestion was to reduce it to one year. At the first opportunity, the same board decided that the rep fired due to cheating could come back after only one year.

Two seperate KCBS Boards of Directors have stated through words and actions that punishment for an innappropriate apron should be harsher than for cheating. You are the people who have to live with those statements.

Here is a quote of some text that was added to the QuickNotes from when this rep was fired:

"After reading the Quick Notes and after e-mail discussion, the board would like to add the following statement as an addendum:

'While discussed in executive session, it was not stated in the statement of results after deliberations on the North Platte matter that the board discussed long and hard the disposition of the reps in question. Due to loss of cook team trust as evidenced by many e-mails to the board, collectively and individually, it was determined that termination was the best course of action. Because CBJ Instructors are held to a higher standard as instructors of the KCBS rules, the CBJ Instructor was terminated as well. The board further states that the reps' service in the past is acknowledged and appreciated by KCBS. After one year, both former contest reps may reapply to be reps in training upon approval by the board as constituted in 2013.'"

dmp

sdbbq1234
06-19-2013, 11:51 PM
:pop2:

BBQchef33
06-20-2013, 12:01 AM
for those wondering...

yes, we're watching.

:mod:

Crash
06-20-2013, 03:51 AM
[quote=kenthanson;2522325]

He started the thread saying he knows he's sticking his hand in the snake pit with this one...........and ends it with a sarcastic jab at the entire process we all love competing in. I can understand from his perspective how he wouldn't want anything but cheer leading for his opinion but not everyone agrees.

I don't think I have said anything disrespectful or in poor taste. Sorry if anyone was offended by the opinions I voiced.

The trick is knowing when to quit.

Kindly move along. You're not only past being offensive and assisting in keeping this post off topic, but you are also being severely Un-Brethrenly.

Please, take it somewhere else.

Best of luck in your future comps.

Pappy Q
06-20-2013, 06:16 AM
Name of the Rep? I'd like to avoid contests that they rep.

According to the BOD quick notes, the Rep reinstated as a Rep Trainee was Sonny Ashford. Now I have no personal knowledge of the Rep caught cheating, but me thinks there could be a connection here. I'm no detective but I did drive past a Holiday Inn Express last night.

deguerre
06-20-2013, 07:32 AM
[quote=kenthanson;2522325]

I don't think I have said anything disrespectful or in poor taste. Sorry if anyone was offended by the opinions I voiced.

Sometimes I'm GLAD I don't compete...:tsk:

Diva
06-20-2013, 07:38 AM
The Rep in question is Sonny Ashford.

It kills me that there's 4 pages to this thread and nobody has the cajones to name the person.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-20-2013, 07:45 AM
regarding the "score fixing" or cheating of a contest rep, if they are found to have cheated they should be banned for LIFE!! How can the KCBS turn a blind eye to this, just flat out wrong. A competitor and friend of mine describes bbq as a gentlemen's sport. That rep just took that away from everyone else whom has ever competed in a contest that they were a rep at.

dmprantz
06-20-2013, 08:06 AM
It kills me that there's 4 pages to this thread and nobody has the cajones to name the person.

This forum is indexed by Google, and I'm sure by others. When you write something here, you should be sure of the effects of your actions. I am and have tested it with myself and am concious of if.

More importantly, my goal was not to call out this rep. It was to point out the actions of a voting majority on the BOD. It was to ensure that you all know the position of the brand and product you think is so important. What does it stand for now? You may not get the scores that you earned at a competition, but at least you won't see anything that offends you at awards! What would have happened if this had been an Sam's Club event you think?

dmp

Teamfour
06-20-2013, 08:10 AM
The apron incident was a lapse in judgement. Cheating or score fixing is a premeditated malicious act that deserves a lifetime ban. At the least, the KCBS members should be the ones to decide if that person is re-admitted as a rep.

peterz
06-20-2013, 08:12 AM
KCBS rep cheating should get the F out of here and NEVER come back.
Just my 2c.

Muzzlebrake
06-20-2013, 08:24 AM
Saying the rep cheated is like saying someone wore an apron, there is much more i'm sure to each of those stories.

I know the details of the apron, what is it the rep did exactly?

ique
06-20-2013, 08:27 AM
The Rep in question is Sonny Ashford.

It kills me that there's 4 pages to this thread and nobody has the cajones to name the person.

Thank You. I'm not looking for dirt or rumors, just wanted to know the publicly available information on this issue.

I'm guessing KCBS had some kind of audit that identified the issue, if there is a silver lining at least they spotted the issue.

dmprantz
06-20-2013, 08:31 AM
Saying the rep cheated is like saying someone wore an apron, there is much more i'm sure to each of those stories.

I know the details of the apron, what is it the rep did exactly?

This is as much information as I have on the issue:

http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=513

http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=658

SOME ONE cheated, and the rep was helpd accountable for one year. SOME ONE wore an apron, and I was held accountable for three years. I don't disagree that there is more to both stories, but for a group who was so obsessed with the integrity and reputation of the brand, for a group who wants to be "The NFL of the BBQ World," does this further those goals?

dmp

wrenfro12
06-20-2013, 08:47 AM
So are these the only two people that have been punished by KCBS? Why are we comparing only these two?

Diva
06-20-2013, 08:56 AM
Thank You. I'm not looking for dirt or rumors, just wanted to know the publicly available information on this issue.

I'm pickin' up what you're layin' down.

It seems that there are a bunch of Rep advisories, etc. but, I don't see any Cook advisories letting us know what/who to watch out for.....

Untraceable
06-20-2013, 08:58 AM
because one offense is deemed a lapse of judgement and someone harshly punished that had nothing to do with it

and the other offense completely comprimised the entire integrity of the scoring system and got a hand slap in comparision

kenthanson
06-20-2013, 09:01 AM
So are these the only two people that have been punished by KCBS? Why are we comparing only these two?

Because the OP is the one serving the three year ban and he believes that his punishment is more severe for doing less.

Porcine Perfection
06-20-2013, 09:10 AM
What a great thread to read right before heading out to my first comp. :icon_frow

fnbish
06-20-2013, 09:28 AM
What a great thread to read right before heading out to my first comp. :icon_frow

These are just 2 scenarios out of the hundreds of competitions that happen a year. You'll have fun. :becky:

That being said, to the OP, they certainly are 2 very important scenarios that bring to light issues with how KCBS is run and how problems are currently dealt with. Hopefully going forward when conversations like these happen it can help turn the mirror on KCBS and tighten up how things are run and people/teams are treated fairly.

The apron was bad, but not 3yrs plus probation bad. It doesn't sound like it was planned. The information presented about the falsifying scorecards seems premeditated and premeditated cheating/falsifying is not acceptable. A 1yr sentence on that is a joke and looks very bad for KCBS and how they deal with issues.

Fat Freddy
06-20-2013, 10:36 AM
These are just 2 scenarios out of the hundreds of competitions that happen a year. You'll have fun. :becky:

That being said, to the OP, they certainly are 2 very important scenarios that bring to light issues with how KCBS is run and how problems are currently dealt with. Hopefully going forward when conversations like these happen it can help turn the mirror on KCBS and tighten up how things are run and people/teams are treated fairly.

The apron was bad, but not 3yrs plus probation bad. It doesn't sound like it was planned. The information presented about the falsifying scorecards seems premeditated and premeditated cheating/falsifying is not acceptable. A 1yr sentence on that is a joke and looks very bad for KCBS and how they deal with issues.

I dont know if I would call it premeditated, at least not days in advance, but it was messing with the integrity of the blind judging and the integrity of the reps.If there was not enough judges seated then the judges that were should have judged more not just fake card filled out for the entries that didnt have judges. In my opinion what happened to DMP was not right or fair, a 3 year ban, but what was done by Sonny Ashford was 10X worse, and more importantly I know for an absolute 100% fact that there was at least 1 team that will not do KCBS directly because of the North Platte issue. I wonder how many teams quit KCBS because of the apron incident??

I am not defending the apron issue, though I feel Daniel was punished to extremes, and I have no clue what happened at Myrtle Beach. But in my opinion the North Platte incident was much much worse and I personally am disgusted that the rep can be reinstated so soon.

Sorry about not naming names earlier, I was trying to have fun with it before I got all pi$$ed off about it again.

deguerre
06-20-2013, 10:41 AM
I know for an absolute 100% fact that there was at least 1 team that will not do KCBS directly because of the North Platte issue. I wonder how many teams quit KCBS because of the apron incident??



Well, KCBS will never, EVER, see any of my money after this. Not even for a Restaurant Depot day pass if I never decide to actually compete one day.

fnbish
06-20-2013, 10:49 AM
I dont know if I would call it premeditated, at least not days in advance, but it was messing with the integrity of the blind judging and the integrity of the reps.If there was not enough judges seated then the judges that were should have judged more not just fake card filled out for the entries that didnt have judges. In my opinion what happened to DMP was not right or fair, a 3 year ban, but what was done by Sonny Ashford was 10X worse, and more importantly I know for an absolute 100% fact that there was at least 1 team that will not do KCBS directly because of the North Platte issue. I wonder how many teams quit KCBS because of the apron incident??

I am not defending the apron issue, though I feel Daniel was punished to extremes, and I have no clue what happened at Myrtle Beach. But in my opinion the North Platte incident was much much worse and I personally am disgusted that the rep can be reinstated so soon.

Sorry about not naming names earlier, I was trying to have fun with it before I got all pi$$ed off about it again.

Yeah, premeditated isn't exactly the right word from the standpoint that it wasn't planned a lot ahead of time. But sounds like when they realized there were short 2 judges the rep had a choice at that point. To fess up and say "oh crap we are short 2 judges" or think for a minute and decide/plan "falsifying these 2 scorecards is a much better option". Better to cheat/falsify than look foolish is the route that was taken.

Cheating/falsifying is so much the worse offender here.

txschutte
06-20-2013, 11:07 AM
If you are really wondering Chris I wont drop names, but what I will say is maybe if you happen to look at KCBS events in Nebraska in 2012 and accidentally look at reps at say the North Platte contest, you might be on the right track.
The chitty thing about that whole situation for my team was that was when we got our first walk. After I found out the scoop, it really cheapened my teams thoughts about our walk.

Now, we don't even really know if we did or didn't. That sucks, especially for first timers that blow a bunch of money just to try it out.

I applaud the BOD members that voted no.

hogzgonewild
06-20-2013, 11:35 AM
I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here, but when I read the KCBS article presented, I don't feel that the word "cheated" is correct to use in regards to the Reps.

It seems that the Mistake the reps made was not verifying that there were enough judges at each table, and fixing that issue.

During the judging, it is my experience that the Reps are away from the cook tables. Is it possible that the Reps didn't realize the issue of being 2 judges short and didn't notice til time to tally up the scores?

If that is possible, then it seems the judges did the best thing they could at that point. They averaged the other 4 cards to create the additional two scores, which seems to be the rule for "missing score cards" per KCBS.

What I'm saying, is, from the first 4 pages of this thread, you would think the Reps falsified scores on purpose to help a team achieve a higher standing. From the KCBS meeting minutes, I don't see that as being the case in my eyes.

Think of it this way....if they were trying to help out a team, why would they average the scores instead of taking the highest....Averaging probably lead to some 8's instead of 9's.


Again, I may be playing devil's advocate, but I don't feel that anyone should be bashed when most of us only know the details listed in 4-5 lines on the KCBS website.

Now I will also comment on the Apron subject, since like it or not, if you bring up this thread as a "response" to your punishment, you've got to know its going to be talked about.....

As far as that situation, A person on the team made a deliberate choice to wear something inappropriate to awards. As the father of a small child, and knowing how many children were potentially in attendance, I have no remorse for any punishment of the individual, up to a permanent ban of KCBS events.

For DMPRANTZ, I agree that as the team captain, its your job to be aware of who is on your team and you are responsible for those people. I do hope that the event and KCBS includes something along those lines in their rules and Regulations, as it should be. I would not dare include anyone on my team who would perform such a morally offensive act, and have no problems with KCBS or events banning/punishing teams who do. I think 1-2 years would have been sufficient, but we elect the KCBS officials, and they took a vote on it, so it is what it is.

Trucky1008
06-20-2013, 11:47 AM
What would have happened if this had been an Sam's Club event you think?
dmp

Well, based on my experience with a rules violation at a Sam's Club event nothing would have happened.

Shiz-Nit
06-20-2013, 11:54 AM
What a great thread to read right before heading out to my first comp. :icon_frow

Dont worry... Go out and have fun, dont get drunk during your cook, follow your check list.

BBQ Comps are real fun and you will meet some very good people indeed!!!

dmprantz
06-20-2013, 11:54 AM
Respectfully....

it seems the judges did the best thing they could at that point. They averaged the other 4 cards to create the additional two scores, which seems to be the rule for "missing score cards" per KCBS.

Either you or I is misreading what happened. The way I read it is the following statement:

"cards were falsified in the two categories."

The averaging procedure which you later describe is what I took to happen by the KCBS after the cheating had been detected, not the original actions. If some one knows more about this situation and would like to correct my enterpretation, please do so.

Now I will also comment on the Apron subject, since like it or not, if you bring up this thread as a "response" to your punishment, you've got to know its going to be talked about.....

For DMPRANTZ, I agree that as the team captain, its your job to be aware of who is on your team and you are responsible for those people.

Once again, my issue here is that the punishment for wearing an adult themed apron is more severe than the punishment for submitting false scores (I'd call that cheating). Whatever you think the appropriate punishment should have been for me, if you think that having a lesser punishment for some one associated with cheating, well that's your opinion, but that's the topic at hand.

And, while I don't want to turn this into that long argument, I was not the "team captain," but was the "head cook," and again, that was because I filled out the applications. We were a team, not a military organization with ranks and hierarchy. What's more, despite all the yelling, the KCBS rules do not indicate that the head cook is responsible solely and punishable for the actions of all team members. That's a longer topic, but the implications that that is written are false.

dmp

dmprantz
06-20-2013, 11:58 AM
Well, based on my experience with a rules violation at a Sam's Club event nothing would have happened.

lol. I laugh because you might be referencing the team that was caught cheating at a Sam's Club local and given a do-over...they ended up going all the way to Bentonville if I recall.

I also laugh because a member of the 2012 BOd who voted to ban me said that he did it in large part because if the apron had been worn at a Sam's Club event, that series would not have been repeated, so three years was good. Still, cheaters are allowed to advance at Sam's Club, and the fear of the Sam's Club contract doesn't seem to be good enough to keep reps associated with cheaters out of the organization.

I'm really seeing a trend here of cheaters being punished less harshly than some one who wore an adult themed apron. Protect that reputaiton KCBS. You want to be the NFL OF BBQ. I think the Blacksocks of BBQ may be more like it.

dmp

Scottie
06-20-2013, 12:02 PM
for those wondering...

yes, we're watching.

:mod:



Damn... I crapped my pants just reading this...

Scottie
06-20-2013, 12:03 PM
The Rep in question is Sonny Ashford.

It kills me that there's 4 pages to this thread and nobody has the cajones to name the person.


I believe it is in the quick notes as well...

que_dawg
06-20-2013, 12:07 PM
Well, based on my experience with a rules violation at a Sam's Club event nothing would have happened.

It would depend on whether you pulled up in a $100,000 motor home or if you were cooking under a couple of pop up tents and no one knew who you were. #SAMSisoverrated :caked:

landarc
06-20-2013, 01:38 PM
What a great thread to read right before heading out to my first comp. :icon_frow
JP, your biggest worry, if judge number 6 ask you to pick up the soap he dropped, decline.

By and large, the KCBS does a lot for BBQ in the form of having built up Competitive BBQ. That may be a more grand statement than it needs to be, but, still, it has worked out well overall. There are bound to be issues, and I believe this is pointing one out. But, any group of people, especially a large diverse one, is bound to have problems like this.

landarc
06-20-2013, 01:46 PM
[quote=Atlasman;2522354]

Sometimes I'm GLAD I don't compete...:tsk:
Guerry, I do not compete regularly due to physical limitations, but, I highly recommend joining a team of friends and giving it a shot. Although this seems like a load of drama, it is really darned fun. And, there are moments when you get experiences that you cannot get anywhere else.

BBQ comps are not my passion, but, you really are missing out on some fun not having done any at all.

Lake Dogs
06-20-2013, 01:58 PM
> You want to be the NFL OF BBQ.

They'll be the NFL of BBQ only when the game is the toughest to play and compete, and IMHO MBN FAR outranks KCBS. Couple of Webers and you can compete quite effectively in KCBS. You cant even was dishes in MBN with a few Webers...

Mind you, my opinion. KCBS is the largest sanctioning body, but not the "NFL"...

dmprantz
06-20-2013, 02:12 PM
> You want to be the NFL OF BBQ.

They'll be the NFL of BBQ only when the game is the toughest to play and compete, and IMHO MBN FAR outranks KCBS. Couple of Webers and you can compete quite effectively in KCBS. You cant even was dishes in MBN with a few Webers...

Mind you, my opinion. KCBS is the largest sanctioning body, but not the "NFL"...

Tell that to MMA. There's an understanding between KCBS and MMA that KCBS is trying to set themselves up as the NFL of BBQ when it comes to the marketing deals and reputation. We'll see. Let's see if the NFL invites the replacement ref from the Seattle/Green Bay game back this year.

Seriously though, comparing Four Meat competitions (KCBS is not the only one) to MBN, MBN definitely requires more cooking space and more meat, but to say that it's harder is something that depends on some one's opionion. I can show up to an MBN event with a case of ribs, cook half in the morning and the other half two hours later, and I'm done, with a shot at GC. Four Meat competitions require, well four meats. they each have to be cooked differently, to come off on a schedule. Some get injected, some get a cooking liquid, some get a mop, some don't get anything. Different prep skills, different rubs, different sauces. Personally, i think that the coordination of having four meats done on a schedule with all the differences is more difficult than cooking a large quantity of one meat. Don't forget, I lived in Memphis and have competed in MIM. I know, you can cook all three in MBN, but you don't have to.

The on-site presentation definitely includes its own challenges and is more difficult than any blind turn in box, but I think that may be outweighed by the time, effort, and skill it takes to turn in non-IBCA chicken (and consistantly win). In the end, opinions vary, and I'm veering off topic. Sorry.

dmp

Lake Dogs
06-20-2013, 02:18 PM
Tell that to MMA. There's an understanding between KCBS and MMA that KCBS is trying to set themselves up as the NFL of BBQ when it comes to the marketing deals and reputation. We'll see. Let's see if the NFL invites the replacement ref from the Seattle/Green Bay game back this year.

Seriously though, comparing Four Meat competitions (KCBS is not the only one) to MBN, MBN definitely requires more cooking space and more meat, but to say that it's harder is something that depends on some one's opionion. I can show up to an MBN event with a case of ribs, cook half in the morning and the other half two hours later, and I'm done, with a shot at GC. Four Meat competitions require, well four meats. they each have to be cooked differently, to come off on a schedule. Some get injected, some get a cooking liquid, some get a mop, some don't get anything. Different prep skills, different rubs, different sauces. Personally, i think that the coordination of having four meats done on a schedule with all the differences is more difficult than cooking a large quantity of one meant. Don't forget, I lived in Memphis and have competed in MIM.

The on-site presentation definitely includes its own challengers and is more difficult than any blind turn in box, but I think that may be outweighed by the time, effort, and skill it takes to turn in non-IBCA chicken (and consistantly win). In the end, opinions vary, and I'm veering off topic. Sorry.

dmp


I know; I have competed in and judged both. JMHO. I did KCBS by myself with 1 runner. MBN; didnt happen without 4 of us, and we worked our ***es off. Physically harder.

Different rewards, for sure, singularly awesome (MBN) vs. consistently very good (KCBS). One can surely debate which is easier to GC... Another topic for another day...

You're right though; I remember back when you first received your ruling and I though to myself "this is crazy B.S.". Reprimand, yes, but anything else other than warned next time you'll be disqualified, NO. Really, a fake **** drew down that much of a sanction? Rhetorical now, I know...

And then the things that should be policed (cheating, plain and simple, with knowledge and malice), this should be life-long ban IMHO.

SmokinJohn
06-20-2013, 04:06 PM
I got a headache reading this (especially jumping to read the connected threads). Wow.

DMP: I am sorry you got hosed like that. I don't think the punishment fit the crime, as it did not with the cheating rep. I personally hoped you mud stomped your teammate (or at least made him buy you a new rig).

Today's NFL and NBA, and the EU were the result of mergers decades ago. So it seems to me (and I'm talking off the top of my head) that the other Associations could band together to create a new Association that does away with the unsavory aspects that you (and others I suspect) have seen/been victims of.

There have to be vendors that KCBS doesn't use that would chomp at the bit to be a sugar daddy (Maybe the Chinese, when they take over Smithfield?).

Just my two cents worth.

sitnfat
06-20-2013, 04:12 PM
I may be wrong but wasn't there a rep that got banned for having a drink on friday night with a team?

peterz
06-20-2013, 04:21 PM
Damn... I crapped my pants just reading this...


hahahahahahah now thats funny !!!!!!!!! =)

drbbq
06-20-2013, 04:33 PM
I may be wrong but wasn't there a rep that got banned for having a drink on friday night with a team?

There was a rep that was banned when I was on the board but he got hammered drinking moonshine, blew lunch and passed out in a teams camp. There were plenty on the board that wanted to look the other way cuz he was a good old boy. The next month there was a do-over and he was unsuspended. We later made rules and reps have been reprimanded even including our esteemed Executive Director.

Smoke'n Ice
06-20-2013, 04:54 PM
There have been instances where I have questioned the validity of the results over the last 15 to 20 years and over 200 contest. The first time, was at one of my first KCBS events and the First KCBS event in Boise, ID. I blew it off and felt maybe I was mistaken.

The second time was in Seattle, WA at one of the first KCBS events in the PNW and again thought it was sour grapes. The third time, which was the charm, was in Worland, WY. After this contest, I now look at the reps and make my decision of weather to attend or not as the same rep was involved in all three instances.

I support the contest depending on the rep and there are times I have let the organizer know this.

If we practice this as a group, it might make a difference as the organizers are the real people whom the BOD must please, not the judges, who outhnumber the cooks or the cooks who show up to enjoy the sport.

Cue's Your Daddy
06-20-2013, 07:22 PM
Holy cow. Come on dmprantz. You can't start a post and then you don't want to be judged. What your team did was wrong. Don't stir the pot if you don't want to get burnt. You always have a way of putting stuff out there and trying to sound like the innocent victim. This post has lasted 3 pages to many. People need to have the balls to stop beating around the bush and state names and facts. If you would of mentioned names and details then I could get 20 min of my life back. And I do aGree with you that what the rep did is worse then what you did. But I think I would of beat the sh+t out of your teammate if he did that. And I know a lot of people would of joined in.

dmprantz
06-20-2013, 08:17 PM
I'm trying to turn over a new leaf in life where I don't get sucked into arguments by trolls. As I have said before, this thread is not supposed to relive the old stuff, and is about relative punishments. If any one feels that I have said something wrong or you want to call me names, I have room for a few more messages in my inbox, so let's chat. In the mean time, let's please try to stay on topic.

One thing I will discuss though is the handfull of people who have made comments that they would have physically assaulted my former teamate or me if they had been there. First, I'll say that I don't believe a single one of you! Long distance Internet threats predate when most of you used a mouse. I think you're all full of it. Next, do you realize how much it makes you sound like juvenile hypocrite? "It's not okay for those women and children to see a fake penis, but one man beating another sensless with blood flying everywhere...that's just groovy!" Think about it man. And finally, what makes a you think you would have gotten within three feet of either of us? You have no idea what kind of military or civilian training either of us has. You have no idea which weopons we might have been carrying (You really think Trigg is the only one? We were in the South guys.), and you have no idea how many people there were our friends and would have had our back. That's not to mention the fact that the Police were around. I strongly suggest that that you all cut the bravado crap, or come down to Tennessee. I don't make threats toward any of you because, quite frankly, I'm a reasonable, mature adult. I wish there were more of us around....

dmp

sdbbq1234
06-20-2013, 08:31 PM
Geez loueez! Is bbq comp about fun and fun only? If so, then get rid of the prizes!

Cheating (lying) is not good! The cheaters are taking away someone's chance for a "prize".

I do not have any tolerance for cheating. It just is not part of my morals and life. I like to win or lose honestly. I have a clean conscience.

:pop2:

wallace

carlyle
06-20-2013, 09:43 PM
I was very surprised when I read about the re instatement. Not that he applied. But that the application was accepted. Not enough time for what was admitted to have happened.

Big congrats to the 4 who voted no. Way to go.

I will just say it again, not enough time!

Smokedelic
06-20-2013, 10:02 PM
I may be mistaken, but isn't the son of the Rep who requested to be reinstated the one who got the contract for the KCBS Score system? The scoring system, which, by the way, has been in development for a couple of years, and has never been put into full operation.

...but I could be wrong.

dmprantz
06-20-2013, 10:15 PM
I may be mistaken, but isn't the son of the Rep who requested to be reinstated the one who got the contract for the KCBS Score system?

The rep who was recently reinstated is a software developer. Some one with the same first and last names is the former CEO of the company who is developing that software. Both that former CEO and the rep currently report the same employer on public websites, and both have ties to a single sports league (not BBQ). I do not know if they are the same person, related, or complete strangers. This is news to me.

dmp

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-20-2013, 10:16 PM
What? I hope that is wrong, that is just too much to sound true.

Muzzlebrake
06-20-2013, 10:52 PM
Objectively looking at it from a distance I think that having score cards falsified on your watch would be a bigger issue that someone wearing inappropriate clothing on your watch.

However subjectively, I can see where a rep that has a record of serving an orginization would draw less of a sentence than a team captain with a history if being quick to criticize an organization. Like it or not, right or wrong, thats not for me to decide but I can see how that could be the case.

Dan you can't really think that continuing to bash the organization and its leadership as a whole and make veiled threats about available weaponry and pugilistic abilities is going to improve your odds of being reinstated early. I don't know what Sonny's argument for being reinstated was but it I'm sure I didn't hurt that he was not airing his grievances publicly.

Also, I don't see where in the notes it states that the rep falsified the score cards. I do see where it states "[I][two tables were short judges, and cards were falsified in the two categories. The rep who called into the meeting could not explain how this happened ] [I]. Based on what I see presented the cards could very well have been falsified by someone else and the rep failed to catch it and/or correct it accordingly to the established criteria.

Sounds very similar to your situation Dan, in that as the contest rep or team head cook, you both were the ones ultimately held accountable for not only your own actions but for others as well.

Furthermore the reps involved were not banned, they were terminated and given the opportunity after one year to reapply for the training program. Sonny also had his credentials as CBJ Instructor terminated but I do not see mention if he will be allowed to once again reapply for this position. I know your ban was 3 years, will you be automatically reinstated at that point or do you have to formally reapply?

SDAR
06-20-2013, 11:10 PM
I think he meant he woulda beat the crap out of someone on his own team for pulling such a childish act. I wouldn't ever associate with him again at the least. Comparing the two acts is how you started this thread.

dmprantz
06-20-2013, 11:19 PM
I think he meant he woulda beat the crap out of someone on his own team for pulling such a childish act....Comparing the two acts is how you started this thread.

Respectfully, I disagree. I felt that I started this thread by comparing the punishments more than the actions. Further, he said that he would have assaulted my teamate if he had been there and other teams would have joined in. He's not the first one either. In particular I remember a former correctional officer saying in another forum that he would have gone to prison from attacking us if he had been there. I believe that his intent was to say that as a member of the audience at awards, he would have physically attacked some one on another team for wearing an adult themed apron. If I am wrong and he'd like to clarify his statements, I'll listen, but that's not at all how it came across to me. In the mean time, if you think that that would be appropriate behaviour, then you and I severely disagree.

dmp

SDAR
06-20-2013, 11:29 PM
I believe comparing the punishments requires comparing the acts. The "dishonesty" is somewhat unclear from my view but I'm a long way away.

Atlasman
06-20-2013, 11:34 PM
Holy cow. Come on dmprantz. You can't start a post and then you don't want to be judged. What your team did was wrong. Don't stir the pot if you don't want to get burnt. You always have a way of putting stuff out there and trying to sound like the innocent victim.


Exactly.........to heap scorn on anyone who disagrees and the entire KCBS and expect everyone else not to say anything about you is not "respectfully" trying not to rehash old gripes.......it's wanting to tell a one sided story.

Sorry, but if you want to continue to dish it out you should be mature enough to take some heat yourself.........not wish ill on other teams when they compete, insinuate low intelligence or imply you are armed with weapons and close combat training should anyone approach you at a contest.

Everyone has agreed the KCBS guy got off easy........not everyone agrees with you that you got a raw deal. That's life.

White Dog BBQ
06-20-2013, 11:54 PM
I believe comparing the punishments requires comparing the acts. The "dishonesty" is somewhat unclear from my view but I'm a long way away.

Exactly. There's a big difference between a "cheater" and someone who made a boneheaded mistake. Not saying which label applies to the Rep (I have no idea), but to borrow DMP's NFL analogy, if the NFL fired a ref every time a boneheaded call was made, the ref corps would be very small.

DMP -- one question on your reinstatement request. I got the impression from your interview on Rempe's show that one of the reasons it was denied was because you no longer maintain a KCBS membership. Is my understanding correct? It's been a while since I listened to the interview so I acknowledge I could be imagining things.

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 12:03 AM
one question on your reinstatement request. I got the impression from your interview on Rempe's show that one of the reasons it was denied was because you no longer maintain a KCBS membership. Is my understanding correct? It's been a while since I listened to the interview so I acknowledge I could be imagining things.

I have never requested to be reinstated. A member of the board voluntarily, without speaking to me, made a motion to reduce my ban to a year, and encountered multiuple obsticles. We did eventually speak a few times, but he never kept the motion around long enough for a vote. The reason why it was never voted according to him and another member of the board is that they wanted me to pay the KCBS $35 and become a member. Proof to me that it really is all about the money. Another member of the board, again without me requesting it, brought another motion up to reduce my ban to a year, and he made sure there was a vote. Eight members of the current board voted to keep my ban at three years. Six of those eight voted to reinstate this rep.

dmp

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 12:20 AM
This was a very good and thoughtful comment on the topic, and I'd like to take the time to respond to each point. I apologize in advance to any one with ADD or any other form of short attention span for the length of this post, but I think that the discussion may be good.

veiled threats about available weaponry and pugilistic abilities

My point above was not that I am an expert fighter who will hurt people. We could have each been Army Rangers with a better draw than Raylan Givens and a platoon at our back, or we could have been two out of shape nerds with no friends and nothing more dangerous than butter knife at our disposal. What I was trying to get across was that making retroactive threats that you would have definitely beaten me up with all of your friends is both juvenile and presumptive at best. Most of you don't really know who either of us is, and to say that you would have broken the law as a result of some one's actions is ascinine. You weren't there, and the violent person who was there didn't do anything, so quit the threats.

Also, I don't see where in the notes it states that the rep falsified the score cards. I do see where it states "[two tables were short judges, and cards were falsified in the two categories. The rep who called into the meeting could not explain how this happened ] . Based on what I see presented the cards could very well have been falsified by someone else and the rep failed to catch it and/or correct it accordingly to the established criteria.

Sounds very similar to your situation Dan, in that as the contest rep or team head cook, you both were the ones ultimately held accountable for not only your own actions but for others as well.

These are fair points, but does it matter? Even if the reps didn't cheat and I didn't wear the apron, we were all guilty by association. Does it make sense for guilt of cheating by association to carry a lesser punishment than guilt of innappropriate clothing by association? Don't forget that this board could have voted to change my punishment to one year, and they chose not to. They could have chosen to punish this rep for longer than one year, and they chose not to. If you think that makes sense and is okay, then that's your position and the end of it.

It also begs the question of how good is an organization where this is even possible? If the reps didn't cheat, who did? How did this happen, and what's to prevent it from happening again? What, if anything, was done to find the people responsible? Was anything done to keep this from happening again? Do you even care?

Furthermore the reps involved were not banned, they were terminated

Moot point. They were fired as reps but are still allowed to attend competitions. I was banned from competing, but I'm allowed to attend KCBS competitions. Semantics. Either of us may be allowed to judge, but I'd question whether any organizer would want that.

I know your ban was 3 years, will you be automatically reinstated at that point or do you have to formally reapply?

I don't have to reapply for anything at the end of the three years. I go immediately to probation, should I choose to compete.

I think that having score cards falsified on your watch would be a bigger issue that someone wearing inappropriate clothing on your watch.
...I can see where a rep that has a record of serving an orginization would draw less of a sentence than a team captain with a history if being quick to criticize an organization....

And here's the crux of it. You can see it. I can see it. It's apparently what happened. Is that right? Are you okay with it? Is any one okay with it? Does some one being chummy with the BOD allow for association with cheating to be punished lighter than association with a penis apron? I mean, it's a simple question in the end: "Are you okay competing under a sanctioning body that allows friendship or some other factor to bring those associated with cheating back into the fold sooner than those associated with annappropriate clonthing?" If you're fine with it, then you can say so, and I won't attack you for it. If not, then I'd agree with you, but everything else in this thread is subterfuge from that central issue.

you can't really think that continuing to bash the organization and its leadership as a whole...is going to improve your odds of being reinstated early.

I think you have a serious misunderstanding about me and my intent. I have never asked to be reinstated early. Let's be clear on that. When a board member voluntarily offerred to move to reduce my ban to one year, I was happy, but when other board members, and eventually even that person, chose to waylay that motion and then ask me for a payoff to get it heard, I got angry. When some one else voluntarily made a similar motion, it was voted down. The only reason this thread even exists is because I came to The Brethren to sell my competition rig and I decided to check out the forum while I was signed in, leading me to find this mess. Read my sig if you're interested in the pit. I'm not here to try to convince people to let me compete. I'm here to tell you the truth that the folks running the KCBS treat people differently based on their BBQ pedigree and revenue production.

I don't deny that I've been a critic of the KCBS when I felt it was warranted, but should critics be punished for not towing the company line and being lemmings? Most of my critiques have been that KCBS is concerned with little more than money. My experiences since being banned only confirm that. I'm not asking any one if it "makes sense" to them, I'm asking if you think it's right...and if you do, you all deserve each other!

dmp

Atlasman
06-21-2013, 12:51 AM
So do you want to compete in KCBS again?? Guessing not if you are selling your contest rig.

If not what's the point???......to try to get other people to hate the KCBS like you do???

This thread is just one HUGE pile of sour grapes........we're supposed to believe you are taking some high moral ground and they are money grubbing devils all over a $35 fee??? LOL

KCBS is a business.......they SHOULD do everything they can to make money and grow.

I understand you are angry with them and if you want to take your ball and go home that's cool............why try to drag everyone else into it though??


Best of luck whatever you decide.

Crash
06-21-2013, 02:41 AM
Here's what I think.....time to throw a padlock on this amazing thread. It's all over the place and has quickly gotten a severe negative vibe to it.

Nothing good is coming from it. Of course, just one dude's opinion.

K-Train
06-21-2013, 05:32 AM
Sweet Raylen Givens reference. Now back to the thread, this whole thing is unfortunate for all involved no matter how you look at it.

Fornia
06-21-2013, 07:48 AM
Wake me up when this thread is over. Jeez.

BaggerBill
06-21-2013, 07:53 AM
So do you want to compete in KCBS again?? Guessing not if you are selling your contest rig.

If not what's the point???......to try to get other people to hate the KCBS like you do???

This thread is just one HUGE pile of sour grapes........we're supposed to believe you are taking some high moral ground and they are money grubbing devils all over a $35 fee??? LOL

KCBS is a business.......they SHOULD do everything they can to make money and grow.

I understand you are angry with them and if you want to take your ball and go home that's cool............why try to drag everyone else into it though??


Best of luck whatever you decide.

The point is very simple, he's saying that CHEATING is far worse than BAD JUDGEMENT. Given that fact, the question is why does the punishment for BAD JUDGEMENT out weigh the punishment for CHEATING. Both punishments were handed down by the KCBS. There is no consistency. That was made very clearly in the onset of this thread.

Like I said, the point is very simple and if you would stop trying to take cheap shots, actually read what is being said and NOT twist the facts to suit yourself, then you would understand. I'm not sure if you can't understand because you don't want to or the the lack of oxygen way up there on your soap box is fogging your ability to think clearly. Either way it's obvious that your sole purpose is to take cheap shot. Now if you'll excuse me, I got a fatty to smoke.

BBQinMI
06-21-2013, 08:02 AM
Why are these two events being connected? They have nothing to do with each other at all

On one hand is the debate of whether a 3 year ban is appropriate punishment for having a team member wear an inappropriate apron

On the other hand is the debate of whether the punishment for the rep was the correct punishment


But to try to link the 2 is foolish. Your punishment has to stand on its own. To illustrate it lets say 2 guys in 2 separate cars go out driving drunk and they both hit pedestrians and kill them. One guy hires a good lawyer and gets a kind judge and receives a 10 year sentence, the other guy gets a mean judge and gets 20 years. Is the 20 year sentencing unfair? No, its within the realms of the law as a fair punishment, just because someone else got off easier does not change the validity or fairness of his punishment

smokinrack
06-21-2013, 08:04 AM
After reading this and the other thread for 2 days it seems to me that :

A lapse in judgement can ruin a particuliar event but something involving a KCBS rep and falsified score cards has the potential to ruin the reputation of the entire organization and has apparently left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.Seems pretty common sense to me which should of been deemed worse and recieved a harsher penalty, dont really know what the rest of the drama in this was about if people would stick to the OP and stay on topic.

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 08:09 AM
KCBS is a business.......they SHOULD do everything they can to make money and grow.

For the sake of clarity, the Kansas City Barbecue Society is not a business in the traditional sense. They are a not for profit company which files as a 501(c)3. That means that their primary purpose, whatever it is, is not to make money, but rather to further a non-political cause. It also means that the members of the organization are not allowed to receive any "undue benefit" from being members. IANAL, but this is what I understand to be true. I have been told by a current member of the KCBS BOD that this undue benefit doctrine is the reason why the KCBS can't require that all teams or head cooks be KCBS members.

dmp

Lake Dogs
06-21-2013, 08:55 AM
DMP, I'm thinking that many have problems talking frankly and openly about their "hallowed" organizations; in this case KCBS. Sadly, any organization of any size at all has problems/issues. I sure wish people would understand that the only way to fix problems is to first identify them, and then secondly to delve into them, cause, etc. so that you can work to prevent them from being repeated... Rather, they'd bad-mouth the messenger... Sad.

Cheers, brother, hope to catch a beer with 'ya sometime.


<-- thinking to myself; DMP received a 3 year ban for showing bad judgement (a team member, really)... Shouldn't the folks on the BOD who voted "Yes" receive the same 3 year ban for their bad judgement? Fair is fair, yes?

Sawdustguy
06-21-2013, 09:44 AM
dmprantz,

You should not have been banned for three years. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Unfortunately there are some who can't see the forest for the trees.

Slamdunkpro
06-21-2013, 10:03 AM
Exactly. There's a big difference between a "cheater" and someone who made a boneheaded mistake. Not saying which label applies to the Rep (I have no idea), but to borrow DMP's NFL analogy, if the NFL fired a ref every time a boneheaded call was made, the ref corps would be very small.
I think it's more akin to the NFL rep was adding touchdowns that didn't happen vs a blown call. The one single person who can "fix" a contest is the person who enters the scores. That person has to be above reproach. Allowing a person who knowingly entered false data ("I have no idea how it happened" is such a weak argument that I won't even get into it) back in a position where they can do it again and directly affect contest results casts a shadow on every event they touch.

I have a question for DMP - KCBS has banned you from KCBS events yet you are not a KCBS member. How would they enforce this? What are they going to do? not include you in ToY? Have the organizer read you the trespass act?

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 10:17 AM
KCBS has banned you from KCBS events yet you are not a KCBS member. How would they enforce this? What are they going to do? not include you in ToY? Have the organizer read you the trespass act?

The funny thing here is that even though I am banned from competing, the KCBS would gladly accept my money, and in fact has told me that they expect that to happen for some considerations. Honestly, this is something that I think is best not to test, but my guess is that if I were to be found competing at a competition by a rep who knows who I am, that entire team would be DQed in every category. Additionally, the head cook of that team (if it's not me) would be banned from competing in KCBS for some period of time, and the length of my ban would be increased. The decision of the rep would be final, and most-to-all organizers have you sign that you agree to follow the KCBS, so they would hope to be insulated from a fraud lawsuit. Even if an organizer told me I could compete, he would likely have signed a contract allowing the reps to make final decisions. I won't say the thought of testing this never crossed my mind, but the cost of a competition followed by the cost of a potential lawsuit makes it silly to even ponder.

I have attended KCBS competitions since my ban, but I've always contacted the reps before hand to explain the situation and to ensure that they know I have no intent on cooking. I've been asked what to do at a comp and refused to answer because it sounded too much like actually participating. My former teamate attended a dual sanctioned event with a team that entered both MBN and KCBS, and a self appointed member of KCBS ban police kept an eagle eye on him all night to make sure that he never participated in the KCBS side of things....

dmp

deguerre
06-21-2013, 10:20 AM
KCBS (Acronym): 1. Corrupt from the neck up...




























OK, OK...posted in jest. Maybe...

Pigs on Fire
06-21-2013, 10:53 AM
If KCBS is such a terrible organization, why do so many people voluntarily choose to spend $700 or more weekend after weekend to attend their sanctioned events and compete?

Smoke'n Ice
06-21-2013, 11:19 AM
I was a member of a BOD for a home owners association. We were responsible for enforcing the Deed Restrictions imposed on the property and agreed to by each owner. We had a home owner who was operating a business from their home which was against the bylaws. We attempted to mediate the issue but to no avail. Our final action was filing a law suit against the property owner.

The BOD prevailed in this legal action but we were lectured by the judge that we, the BOD, could not be arbitrary or capricious in our enforcement of the deed restrictions or we would forfeit the right to enforce any. Just some food for thought. The question being could these two actions, when taken together and viewed by a third party not involved in the organization, be considered arbitrary or capricious.

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 11:34 AM
Removing Offtopic post. I should have known better.

dmp

Scottie
06-21-2013, 12:22 PM
I do not believe KCBS is a 501c3. Maybe a 501c4? Different rules and can make money and not fundraise

White Dog BBQ
06-21-2013, 12:53 PM
Like many legal questions, this can vary from state to state, and I'd be curious to know which state's laws would apply here, Missouri or Tennessee. I wonder because the whole basis for punishing me to begin with is based on a principal which the state of Tennessee considers unconstitutional, but I'm veering off topic again. Sorry.

dmp

I'd love to see your authority on this. While I believe the principle you are citing is applicable in a criminal law context, this is a private matter and generally private groups can choose their members and enforce their rules as they please. If what you are saying is true, the Vols would never have to worry about NCAA sanctions...

wrenfro12
06-21-2013, 01:03 PM
Like many legal questions, this can vary from state to state, and I'd be curious to know which state's laws would apply here, Missouri or Tennessee. I wonder because the whole basis for punishing me to begin with is based on a principal which the state of Tennessee considers unconstitutional, but I'm veering off topic again. Sorry.

dmp

No you are not off topic....you just stepped around to beat the other side of the dead horse.

Pigs on Fire
06-21-2013, 01:08 PM
If he would have gone to KCBS with his hat in hand and approached them in a manner of which appeared to be remorseful, I suspect they would have pursued a different outcome regarding his banishment and further sanctions.

And before Mr. Prantz chimes in and says that I know nothing of his behavior towards KCBS post-incident, he would be correct. But I'll continue on with my suspicions of how the conversations went...based on his past, present and I'm sure future posts on the subject.

What people like him don't understand is that in most entities....whether they are government-based, publicly traded corporations or small-time organizations (I'll put KCBS in the last category), there's a group of people that control them. You piss them off and 99.9% of the time, you ain't gonna like the outcome.

Yeah, get the weed burners out. Flame on. I don't GARA....

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 01:12 PM
No you are not off topic....you just stepped around to beat the other side of the dead horse.

You are correct and I apologize. I wrote that right before lunch and planned to come back and try to remove it, which I will do now. It was off topic and did not belong.

dmp

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 01:21 PM
I do not believe KCBS is a 501c3. Maybe a 501c4? Different rules and can make money and not fundraise

You may be correct. You have a closer connection to the KCBS than I do, and you have better access to tax law professionals, but I'm not sure that it matters much. All of 501(c) entities are not for profit, which was the primary point.

dmp

landarc
06-21-2013, 01:29 PM
I have to say, although the arguments seem fairly split, there do seem to be at least a few people who agree that DMP should have been banned and perhaps for even longer than he is already. I have stated my opinion that he has been treated too harshly, and in truth, I would not have banned him, or his team mate at all. They would have been given some form of warning and allowed to move on.

But, I have to wonder, if the broad membership of the KCBS somehow feels that showing fake genitalia is so offensive, that it must be eradicated from view. I see this as political correctness run amok (I would think differently if the guy has chosen to not wear pants, the real deal is a totally different thing). But, indeed, KCBS is a private organization, and has the right to bad whatever they want, including, apparently Daniel. And I do think this could be interpreted as capricious, but, who is going to take this to court?

On the other hand, any competitive organization that does not come down on cheating, that seems to be a very serious thing. I will say this, much like the NFL, the KCBS has turned a blind eye to cheating, just as the NFL claims that it is perfectly normal, and certainly there are no performance enhancing drugs used by their players.

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 01:30 PM
And before Mr. Prantz chimes in and says that I know nothing of his behavior towards KCBS post-incident, he would be correct. But I'll continue on with my suspicions of how the conversations went...based on his past, present and I'm sure future posts on the subject.

You are correct that you know absolutely nothing of my communications with the KCBS post incident. I did apologize, said I would accept the punishment, and have done just that. I have been critical of KCBS "all about the Benjamins" attitude before, but I did not criticize them on this issue until it became clear to me that members of the board told bold faced lies about me to get this punishment passed, were continuing to act as road blocks for leniency requests that I didn't make, caused me a lot of stress and agony to string me a long, and then shook me down for money.

Even now, what you still just don't get is that I am not complaining about the three year ban that I received. I am complaining about the punishment received by some one else for what I perceive to be a much more serious event. Like I said before, if you don't have an issue with it, then it's best you move on and be happy with what you have.

dmp

BBQinMI
06-21-2013, 01:44 PM
Even now, what you still just don't get is that I am not complaining about the three year ban that I received. I am complaining about the punishment received by some one else for what I perceive to be a much more serious event. Like I said before, if you don't have an issue with it, then it's best you move on and be happy with what you have.

dmp


Then why mention your 3 year ban at all? Why connect the two events?

You could have a discussion about a 1 year ban(removal/termination) for cheating not being a strict enough punishment without even mentioning your incident, if that was really all your purpose was.

I am not going to get in to whether your punishment was right or wrong, as quite frankly I know very little about situation and don't care all that much. But it is clear as can be there are ulterior motives to this thread and discussion

landarc
06-21-2013, 01:49 PM
In defense of Daniel, I had known him through this forum prior to this incident, and through this incident, and I had no idea that it was him who got the three year ban. In our private communication, he has never complained or mentioned it. I think he has handled it well.

I totally see where he is coming from, that the two punishments, in comparison, seem unfairly administered. At no time in this discussion has he said to reduce his time, more so, he seems to be saying cheating should be a much worse offense and treated as such.

nthole
06-21-2013, 02:01 PM
Then why mention your 3 year ban at all? Why connect the two events?

Because without context one might think a one year ban for cheating was adequate. But then when you find out the same board handed out a much more severe penalty for something that could be perceived as much less harmful to the KCBS organization then it creates the ability to ponder whether or not some individuals really are making the decisions they were ELECTED to make or whether they are disregarding the INDIVIDUALS FUNDING THE ORGANIZATION and making decisions for their own benefit.

KCBS doesn't exist without it's paid members PAYING their money. And the board is ELECTED to make decisions based on the best interest of the 'shareholders', ie the paying and voting members. They are not FREE to do whatever they want as though it's their company and we are all along for the ride.

:deadhorse:

Atlasman
06-21-2013, 05:11 PM
The point is very simple, he's saying that CHEATING is far worse than BAD JUDGEMENT. Given that fact, the question is why does the punishment for BAD JUDGEMENT out weigh the punishment for CHEATING.


Let's get one thing perfectly clear for all the people out there passing this joker's actions off as "bad judgement" or something similarly benign.

What the offender did was a crime and he is lucky he didn't get charged for it...........even worse for him because I am sure children were present.

This clown is lucky his picture isn't up at the local post office............and we are all worried about the severity of his and the head cooks ban from weekend BBQ??


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/jacob-lee-bovia-arrested-exposing-fake-penis-maryland_n_1326558.html

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 05:30 PM
I'm not aware of any court in the United States that believes that BBQ team head cooks are criminally responsible for all acts commited by their team, and the police who were at the awards ceremony didn't feel it was worth arresting any one. Besides, cheating has landed people with Congressional subpeanas. Any other way you want to dodge the point and prove to the world that you're smarter and more responsible than any one else?

dmp

motoeric
06-21-2013, 05:34 PM
Let's get one thing perfectly clear for all the people out there passing this joker's actions off as "bad judgement" or something similarly benign.


No worries about making anything 'perfectly clear'. You've done that. And then you did it again. And again. You have made your position abundantly clear.

I'm relatively sure that no one thinks that A) bad judgement is synonymous with benign and B) what happened by a member of Dan's team was anything less than deplorable and deserving of action by the BoD.

The first event that I attend was pretty bad. The organizers did a piss poor job. I was there with my teenage niece. If that was topped off by some jerk wearing an apron with fake genitalia I might have written off competition BBQ in it's entirety.

Eric

BaggerBill
06-21-2013, 05:35 PM
Let's get one thing perfectly clear for all the people out there passing this joker's actions off as "bad judgement" or something similarly benign.

What the offender did was a crime and he is lucky he didn't get charged for it...........even worse for him because I am sure children were present.

This clown is lucky his picture isn't up at the local post office............and we are all worried about the severity of his and the head cooks ban from weekend BBQ??


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/jacob-lee-bovia-arrested-exposing-fake-penis-maryland_n_1326558.html

Ok, make things perfectly clear and specifically state that it was a team member who is the "clown" and not the head cook or original poster...you know, the guy that you are taking pot shots at...most recently by referring to him as a clown.

nthole
06-21-2013, 06:05 PM
Let's get one thing perfectly clear for all the people out there passing this joker's actions off as "bad judgement" or something similarly benign.

What the offender did was a crime and he is lucky he didn't get charged for it...........even worse for him because I am sure children were present.

This clown is lucky his picture isn't up at the local post office............and we are all worried about the severity of his and the head cooks ban from weekend BBQ??


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/jacob-lee-bovia-arrested-exposing-fake-penis-maryland_n_1326558.html

Psssst. Falsifying scores which could result in teams winning money and others not would constitute fraud and would therefore be a crime. So...

Ron_L
06-21-2013, 06:58 PM
Mod Note:

So far this thread has stayed within our rules but name calling and personal attacks are not going to be tolerated. Consider this the first warning. If you can't contribute to the discussion without resorting to name calling and personal attacks then move on. There are plenty of other threads to read.

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 07:03 PM
The first event that I attend was pretty bad. The organizers did a piss poor job. I was there with my teenage niece. If that was topped off by some jerk wearing an apron with fake genitalia I might have written off competition BBQ in it's entirety.

Just for devils advocate, and actually on topic, if you found out that the meat you turned in didn't get judged by two judges and had made up scores for at least some period of time, how might that have affected your opinion of competition BBQ in general and the KCBS in particular?

dmp

Atlasman
06-21-2013, 07:03 PM
I'm not aware of any court in the United States that believes that BBQ team head cooks are criminally responsible for all acts commited by their team

Who said you should be criminally responsible for all acts of your team???


No one.

Atlasman
06-21-2013, 07:16 PM
Ok, make things perfectly clear and specifically state that it was a team member who is the "clown" and not the head cook or original poster...you know, the guy that you are taking pot shots at...most recently by referring to him as a clown.


Simple comprehension allows you to see I clearly made a distinction between the two and in no way addressed the OP.


What the offender did was a crime and he is lucky he didn't get charged for it...........even worse for him because I am sure children were present.

This clown is lucky his picture isn't up at the local post office............and we are all worried about the severity of his and the head cooks ban from weekend BBQ??

motoeric
06-21-2013, 07:24 PM
Just for devils advocate, and actually on topic, if you found out that the meat you turned in didn't get judged by two judges and had made up scores for at least some period of time, how might that have affected your opinion of competition BBQ in general and the KCBS in particular?

dmp


I was an attendee, not a competitor. It was literally my first exposure (no pun intended) to competition BBQ.

Eric

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 07:38 PM
I was an attendee, not a competitor. It was literally my first exposure (no pun intended) to competition BBQ.

Fair enough. What if you heard some teams complaining about fake scores, or what if you heard some people saying that the event would have been twice as large but teams boycotted because the rep has a history of cheating? I'm really just trying to get a gauge of reactions to the two situations, which has been the whole point.

dmp

boogiesnap
06-21-2013, 07:45 PM
i can see both acts being equally detrimental to KCBS and competition BBQ, two black eyes.

i do not know the extent of the cheating(did the rep give his buddies 9's and other 5's)?


but what i can't understand is the difference in severity or permanence of each punishment.

i think that is all dan is saying, nothing more, nothing less.

so what is worse? being a dumbass on a cook team or a dumbass in the tent?

why is one treated differently than the other?

boogiesnap
06-21-2013, 08:18 PM
thought i added, if the rep DID manipulate scores in favor of a particular team, well then, that is clearly far worse.

and i woulda beatin his ass senseless...naw not really. just on the net.

but i know, and others do too, they turned in some damn good food and finished middle of the pack despite of it, and if i found out my scores or other competitors were forged, one way or the the other, i'd be pretty upset.

seeing a penis or vagina doesn't really bother me too much. nor does it bother my 6 yr old. her parents have one of each, and she knows it.

now lying or cheating she also knows is completely unacceptable.

Atlasman
06-21-2013, 08:32 PM
i do not know the extent of the cheating(did the rep give his buddies 9's and other 5's)?


10 pages and that question has yet to be answered.

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-21-2013, 08:51 PM
Let's get one thing perfectly clear for all the people out there passing this joker's actions off as "bad judgement" or something similarly benign.

What the offender did was a crime and he is lucky he didn't get charged for it...........even worse for him because I am sure children were present.

This clown is lucky his picture isn't up at the local post office............and we are all worried about the severity of his and the head cooks ban from weekend BBQ??


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/jacob-lee-bovia-arrested-exposing-fake-penis-maryland_n_1326558.html

Intent is the difference between what you posted and what happened in this case. What happened at the comp was not a criminal matter.

Just an FYI

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-21-2013, 08:53 PM
10 pages and that question has yet to be answered.


thank you, I would also like to know the extent of the "score fixing"

2nd..Dmp, did you sign a "loose" contract prior to "your" offense?

I await any functional response prior to being banned from the Brethren defending my daughter and maybe yours.

Phil and others you may just want to tell me to "jump in a lake now. saves us both time.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-21-2013, 08:56 PM
thank you, I would also like to know the extent of the "score fixing"

2nd..Dmp, did you sign a "loose" contract prior to "your" offense?

I await any functional response prior to being banned from the Brethren defending my daughter and maybe yours.

Phil and others you may just want to tell me to "jump in a lake now. saves us both time.


My kid is my life , just like many others...we only get one chance to be a hero! some people want to be a martyer and a zero!

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-21-2013, 09:00 PM
FWIW- I probably would have been pissed if my kids were there, but they have cousins and although I do not know it for a fact have probably seen a phallic (no need to excite google) by now. Even if they haven't it is still not really a big deal.

Now the funny part... if you look at the old thread. The part that people found unacceptable is the size of the appendage. Phallic envy much? Seriously, it's worse because it is large?? Puritanical nonsense.

On to the rep. Best case scenario he was negligent. To make matters worse he said he had no idea how it happened. IF THIS IS TRUE, how many times has this stuff happened under his watch. This concerns me as much as the possibility that he was cheating for a specific team.

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-21-2013, 09:02 PM
thank you, I would also like to know the extent of the "score fixing"

2nd..Dmp, did you sign a "loose" contract prior to "your" offense?

I await any functional response prior to being banned from the Brethren defending my daughter and maybe yours.

Phil and others you may just want to tell me to "jump in a lake now. saves us both time.

I missed something, what happened to your daughter?

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-21-2013, 09:04 PM
FWIW- I probably would have been pissed if my kids were there, but they have cousins and although I do not know it for a fact have probably seen a phallic (no need to excite google) by now. Even if they haven't it is still not really a big deal.

Now the funny part... if you look at the old thread. The part that people found unacceptable is the size of the appendage. Phallic envy much? Seriously, it's worse because it is large?? Puritanical nonsense.

On to the rep. Best case scenario he was negligent. To make matters worse he said he had no idea how it happened. IF THIS IS TRUE, how many times has this stuff happened under his watch. This concerns me as much as the possibility that he was cheating for a specific team.

please lets all keep it to the rep. I actually do wonder how much things change under the tent.

Size DOES NOT MATTER!!! showing children pron is showing children pron.

boogiesnap
06-21-2013, 09:06 PM
I missed something, what happened to your daughter?

her dad was drinkin an postin prolly is all. :rolleyes:

but seriously... i don't know. sorry if it was serious.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-21-2013, 09:12 PM
I missed something, what happened to your daughter?

nothing, but she does kids que and hangs out with a bunch of teams here in the Mid Atlantic as well as does a number of our children. If some one "got it out" in front of any of our children, there could be some talks to be had. Do you have any kids? Hey, do you have a wife? A sister or any LOVED one you wouldnt want to see a pornagraphic image?

How about Granny? she bakes awsome cookies?

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-21-2013, 09:14 PM
her dad was drinkin an postin prolly is all. :rolleyes:

but seriously... i don't know. sorry if it was serious.


Have we met? I like my beer, but that isnt the issue. BTW, does drinking make it all right to children porn?

boogiesnap
06-21-2013, 09:18 PM
Have we met? I like my beer, but that isnt the issue. BTW, does drinking make it all right to children porn?

i don't think we've met, i'm pretty north of MABA.

landarc
06-21-2013, 09:31 PM
Interestingly enough, display of nudity is not illegal in all states or cities. Intent to offend, provoke or incite is required. I also question whether this was in public. In terms oh how or extent of cheating? That is the same as asking how large a plastic phallus is. It doesn't matter, the person in charge of preventing cheating, and upholding the honesty of the competition for KCBS cheated, all that matters.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-21-2013, 09:38 PM
Interestingly enough, display of nudity is not illegal in all states or cities. Intent to offend, provoke or incite is required. I also question whether this was in public. In terms oh how or extent of cheating? That is the same as asking how large a plastic phallus is. It doesn't matter, the person in charge of preventing cheating, and upholding the honesty of the competition for KCBS cheated, all that matters.

OK, here we go. Im a little guy that loves my kid, period! show her a fake sexuall organ and I may see my old cellie..dont be stupid its wrong! or is it ok in your world? this tread has gone from cheating to DMP signing a contract and not controlling his trolls.

BBQchef33
06-21-2013, 09:46 PM
Let's get one thing perfectly clear for all the people out there passing this joker's actions off as "bad judgement" or something similarly benign.

What the offender did was a crime and he is lucky he didn't get charged for it...........even worse for him because I am sure children were present.

This clown is lucky his picture isn't up at the local post office............and we are all worried about the severity of his and the head cooks ban from weekend BBQ??


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/jacob-lee-bovia-arrested-exposing-fake-penis-maryland_n_1326558.html

Consider this post a warning. Keep things civil and factual. Discontinue name calling and personal attacks and ditch the crappy attitude.

landarc
06-21-2013, 10:09 PM
First off, I was taught that the human body was made in God's image. That no part of it is indecent, only the manner in how we perceive it. Yes, thus is a huge cultural difference, that being said, I would not resort to violence, or threats. I would tell my child to look away, and I would expect obedience. Then I would go up to the person and let him know his behavior was unacceptable in s public place. That I would do under any circumstance, as I live in this culture. To be fair, I do not have kids, perhaps my response would be different if I did.

I will say, I was raised not to cheat or lie, and I have done both. There have been times when one, or both, if those actions were prudent. As I have said, at least I think I did, I believe the person who did the apron thing was wrong in what he did. But, I don't see either if these two offenses as worthy if violence. Incidentally, do you believe you do more for your daughter by going to jail for assault over being thre to explain how dumb some men will behave at times?

landarc
06-21-2013, 10:12 PM
Iny previous post, I posited that perhaps, based upon the reactions here, that Daniel deserves a 3 year suspension, but then, certainly the official that broke his contract surely deserves at least the same.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-21-2013, 10:37 PM
Iny previous post, I posited that perhaps, based upon the reactions here, that Daniel deserves a 3 year suspension, but then, certainly the official that broke his contract surely deserves at least the same.


I kinda agree , Dmp , A slap on the wrist , his understudy ..gone for a LONG time! Rep, gone forever.

I just hate to see any excuse for the action that I belive we all see as wrong (pron in front of children).

Dmp, let it go. Apeal and Ill back you on the whole apron thing. Bash eveyone and all connected to the KCBS and you will stand alone. Some on here have made very valid points. You actually did sign the contract as the "guy". Me, I hope I dont ruin it for those that help me out. Do well and I hope we meet under the big tent!

Q-Dat
06-21-2013, 10:40 PM
I have no dog in this fight, but as a member I would like for someone from KCBS to respond with their side of the story. The continued silence isn't good. Even if the goal is to appear to take the high road by not responding, that's not how it will be perceived by most.

Again, I'm not on either side here, but people have expressed in this thread that they have concerns about getting involved with KCBS due to this. I am more than willing to hear out the BOD on this, but someone has to be willing to give their side.

dmprantz
06-21-2013, 11:27 PM
Like many, I feel that this thread may have run its course. Those who thought I was a jerk last week still do. Those who thought I got shafted still do. My goal here was not to change any of those opinions. There seem to be a reasonable number of people who smell something rotten in the KCBS version of Denmark when it comes to these situations, and it's not the Tony Stone Low and Slow Competition. Honestly, I think that's a good thing. It's not that I'm on any kind of mission to hurt the KCBS and am looking for conflict. Hell, like I said, I only found out about this by coincidence, buy if people involved with cheating are let back into the KCBS so easily, I think you should ask the questions if you give a damn about your BBQ society.

I can't promise that I won't post on this thread again. Some people always have to get in the last word, and there may be a legitimate question or two, but like I said, there's really not much more here. Either you think it makes perfect sense to issue a three year ban for inappropriate clothing and a one year ban for cheating, or you don't. If you think it's suspect, either you'll stand up, ask questions, and wait for answers, or you'll just stay quiet and avoid making waves. Either way, it's your BBQ society. You pay $12 to them every time you compete. You potentially give them $35 a year so that you can claim to be certified or make yourself feel better. Some of you even accept money from them for your children's education or charitable causes. Decide how important this is to you.

I'll say one last thing here: When I started this thread, I had no idea who this rep was or what relationships he had with KCBS beyond rep duties. It's since come up that he or some one with his name is a business partner of the KCBS. I'm honestly surprised that so few people here thought that fact deserved more attention, but on the face of it to me, that looks improper as hell.

Thanks for your time. Good luck to those competing tonight, and I honestly hope that each of you can look yourselves in the mirror before you go to bed and not feel ashamed. I can.

dmp

Atlasman
06-21-2013, 11:44 PM
(did the rep give his buddies 9's and other 5's)?


Anyone??

Atlasman
06-22-2013, 12:12 AM
You potentially give them $35 a year so that you can claim to be certified or make yourself feel better. Some of you even accept money from them for your children's education or charitable causes. Decide how important this is to you.

I honestly hope that each of you can look yourselves in the mirror before you go to bed and not feel ashamed. I can.

dmp


I'm sorry........that is terribly insulting to every honest member of KCBS who pay their money and give their support to the BBQ community every weekend.

To imply giving the KCBS money or taking charity money from them for your kids is a bad thing or that in ANY way shape or form you should somehow be ashamed of this and not be able to look yourself in the mirror is an undeserved slap in the face to thousands of good people.

This is embarrassing.

Pappy Q
06-22-2013, 05:33 AM
At some point, you have to let go of the past. If not it will destroy you.

Crash
06-22-2013, 05:36 AM
Atlasman, I have no idea why you are so involved in this thread. I am definitely an outsider looking in, but sincerely hope you know more than the rest of us here on the Brethren. Are you personally tied in to either side of the situation? Honestly, I want to know?

I have my opinions, as do the rest of the Brethren, on both sides of the OP's opening statement. DMP's ban is old news and not one that is fully supported (I don't support it). I also have opinions on the allegedly illegal scores. Constructive analysis.....it works.

In short, are you just stirring the pot or do you have something to legitimately offer? IMO, you have definitely made a name for yourself here on the Brethren site....and not so much in a good way.

Welcome to the site, but c'mon bro.....enough already.

Atlasman
06-22-2013, 06:51 AM
Atlasman, I have no idea why you are so involved in this thread. I am definitely an outsider looking in, but sincerely hope you know more than the rest of us here on the Brethren. Are you personally tied in to either side of the situation? Honestly, I want to know?

I have my opinions, as do the rest of the Brethren, on both sides of the OP's opening statement. DMP's ban is old news and not one that is fully supported (I don't support it). I also have opinions on the allegedly illegal scores. Constructive analysis.....it works.

In short, are you just stirring the pot or do you have something to legitimately offer? IMO, you have definitely made a name for yourself here on the Brethren site....and not so much in a good way.

Welcome to the site, but c'mon bro.....enough already.



Easy on the drama dude.........it's a BBQ thread where some people disagreed.

Not the end of the world man :-D

Dan - 3eyzbbq
06-22-2013, 06:54 AM
Well said crash. I agree.

atlasman-you never did answer his question.

fnbish
06-22-2013, 06:59 AM
Easy on the drama dude.........it's a BBQ thread where some people disagreed.

Not the end of the world man :-D

These are my favorite type of comments on any internet forum of any subject matter. Where after a person posts so much to stir the pot to cause obvious drama/arguing, then they are the ones to tell another person to go easy on the drama. Like they aren't the ones who in fact helped contribute to said drama and are clearly worked up themselves. I totally see what you did there and applaud your cunning ways :clap2::rolleyes:. You have definitely taken the high ground for all of this entire thread and not tried, even for one millisecond, to cause drama at all...........:drama:

Atlasman
06-22-2013, 07:06 AM
Well said crash. I agree.

atlasman-you never did answer his question.



Which one?

Atlasman
06-22-2013, 07:07 AM
These are my favorite type of comments on any internet forum of any subject matter. Where after a person posts so much to stir the pot to cause obvious drama/arguing, then they are the ones to tell another person to go easy on the drama. Like they aren't the ones who in fact helped contribute to said drama and are clearly worked up themselves. I totally see what you did there and applaud your cunning ways :clap2::rolleyes:. You have definitely taken the high ground for all of this entire thread and not tried, even for one millisecond, to cause drama at all...........:drama:


Disagreement and drama are not the same.

Dan - 3eyzbbq
06-22-2013, 07:17 AM
Are you personally tied to either side? that one.

fnbish
06-22-2013, 07:29 AM
Disagreement and drama are not the same.

Oh yeah. I definitely agree........ And again what you did there, I see it. We'll just keep it between us.......wink wink.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/4814014643_b2e1da67c5_z_zpsfb83d6d2.jpg

Icekub
06-22-2013, 08:04 AM
I'm going to go suck on some of those dry rib bones I have in the kitchen, since all the life has been sucked out of this thread ;)

fnbish
06-22-2013, 08:09 AM
I'm going to go suck on some of those dry rib bones I have in the kitchen, since all the life has been sucked out of this thread ;)

No wait! There are at least 4 more sharks to jump. :becky:

Crash
06-22-2013, 08:32 AM
Which one?

The ones with the question marks. Ya know...?

boogiesnap
06-22-2013, 08:36 AM
please for the love of all that is good, lock this farkin thread.

there's no benefit in further dragging either dan or KCBS through the mud.

mistakes were made, an anomoly sited. further discussion may be needed, but not under this thread.

bbqbrad
06-22-2013, 09:28 AM
Wanna have some fun? Block Dan and Atlas and reread the thread... Makes little sense, but less ill will...

Vince RnQ
06-22-2013, 11:19 AM
The apron incident was an example of bad judgement that offended people due to the sexual nature of the situation.

The score falsifying incident, while also an example of bad judgement, was a form of cheating by the Contest Representative. The Contest Representative's primary responsibility is to oversee the event from a rules & judging perspective and to assure fair & equal enforcement of all sanctioning body rules and policies.

In my opinion, the apron incident deserved a 1 year ban with the option of reinstatement and the falsifying incident deserved a lifetime ban with no option of reinstatement.

Cheating and cheaters should not be tolerated.

Atlasman
06-22-2013, 11:41 AM
Are you personally tied to either side? that one.


LOL.....nope, just a guy who doesn't hate the KCBS and has zero tolerance for lewd behavior in public.


Not sure what is so alarming or odd about either one of those.

deguerre
06-22-2013, 11:45 AM
Atlasman, I have no idea why you are so involved in this thread. I am definitely an outsider looking in, but sincerely hope you know more than the rest of us here on the Brethren. Are you personally tied in to either side of the situation? Honestly, I want to know?

I have my opinions, as do the rest of the Brethren, on both sides of the OP's opening statement. DMP's ban is old news and not one that is fully supported (I don't support it). I also have opinions on the allegedly illegal scores. Constructive analysis.....it works.

In short, are you just stirring the pot or do you have something to legitimately offer? IMO, you have definitely made a name for yourself here on the Brethren site....and not so much in a good way.

Welcome to the site, but c'mon bro.....enough already.

LOL.....nope, just a guy who doesn't hate the KCBS and has zero tolerance for lewd behavior in public.


Not sure what is so alarming or odd about either one of those.

:tsk:

Atlasman
06-22-2013, 12:15 PM
:tsk:


I didn't realize not hating the KCBS and disapproval of lewd behavior in public were odd stances to take.



Weird.

Smoke'n Ice
06-22-2013, 12:40 PM
Is it possible that the rep in question, who is alleged to be involved, in some way, with the NEW Score Program that has been being written for at least the last two years and yet to be implemented, used subtle hints for the punishment and reinstatement as opposed to the 'in your face' 3 year ban approach? Or is it possible the 'good-old-boy' network kicked in? Just wondering out loud. I know it is a run on sentence but that is what this thread is doing :razz:

deguerre
06-22-2013, 12:46 PM
I didn't realize not hating the KCBS and disapproval of lewd behavior in public were odd stances to take.



Weird.

No, they're not. It's just that you seem to be failing to connect the dots of this particular thread.

tortaboy
06-22-2013, 12:48 PM
I didn't realize not hating the KCBS and disapproval of lewd behavior in public were odd stances to take.



Weird.

How's this for connecting the dots.....

This should be titled the "I'm gonna whine about the penalty I got, but don't want you to talk about it... unless you agree with me" thread.

So much for taking the penalty like a man.

If the OP wanted to keep the topics separate, he should have done so.

But, anyone that disagrees is wrong for discussing this can of worms that the OP opened?

deguerre
06-22-2013, 01:41 PM
Tortie! Where you been, son? :mrgreen:

tortaboy
06-22-2013, 02:22 PM
Tortie! Where you been, son? :mrgreen:

Hi Guerry,

Just been lurking in the shadows brother.

Don't wanna take this thread any more sideways, so I'll leave it at that.

caseydog
06-22-2013, 02:48 PM
Wow, once again, I find myself less and less interested in BBQ Competition. Every time on of these threads pop up, it makes me wonder how BBQ comps could possibly be enjoyable -- at least at the higher levels.

I'm not calling out the OP, in fact I understand his point. It just sounds like KCBS is a farking reality TV show.

BTW, I personally don't take too seriously combative posts by "brethren" who have 78 posts in one whole year of membership, half of them in this thread, and no subscriptions. Just a suggestion.

CD

tortaboy
06-22-2013, 04:10 PM
Wow, once again, I find myself less and less interested in BBQ Competition. Every time on of these threads pop up, it makes me wonder how BBQ comps could possibly be enjoyable -- at least at the higher levels.

I'm not calling out the OP, in fact I understand his point. It just sounds like KCBS is a farking reality TV show.

BTW, I personally don't take too seriously combative posts by "brethren" who have 78 posts in one whole year of membership, half of them in this thread, and no subscriptions. Just a suggestion.

CD

Yeah Atlasman...stop being "Combative".

It doesn't matter if you're right or not.

I just realized why I've stopped posting.

Q-Dat
06-22-2013, 04:23 PM
I have no dog in this fight, but as a member I would like for someone from KCBS to respond with their side of the story. The continued silence isn't good. Even if the goal is to appear to take the high road by not responding, that's not how it will be perceived by most.

Again, I'm not on either side here, but people have expressed in this thread that they have concerns about getting involved with KCBS due to this. I am more than willing to hear out the BOD on this, but someone has to be willing to give their side.

Yeah! I was wondering the same thing Q-Dat!

boogiesnap
06-22-2013, 05:28 PM
Wow, once again, I find myself less and less interested in BBQ Competition. Every time on of these threads pop up, it makes me wonder how BBQ comps could possibly be enjoyable -- at least at the higher levels.

I'm not calling out the OP, in fact I understand his point. It just sounds like KCBS is a farking reality TV show.

BTW, I personally don't take too seriously combative posts by "brethren" who have 78 posts in one whole year of membership, half of them in this thread, and no subscriptions. Just a suggestion.

CD

i feel this is a very specific and unique situation. both instances, actually.

BBQ comps are a whole lot of fun.

Lake Dogs
06-22-2013, 09:11 PM
LOL.....nope, just a guy who doesn't hate the KCBS and has zero tolerance for lewd behavior in public.


Not sure what is so alarming or odd about either one of those.


Lets put the lewd behavior in public in a tad bit of context please.

DMP himself didnt do it; his teammate did. Secondly, it was at a BBQ contest. I dont know if you've ever been to a BBQ contest, or a chili cookoff, or any other outdoor over-night cooking competition. All of them, 100%, have a small tendency to get a little wild. It wasn't like he was walking down the mall or something. Then, finally, one persons humor is another's lewdness. My point is this; theirs probably behavior that you do that I find less than desirable, and visa versa.

Then, the cheating. As I understand it, it was done with forethought and malice. Frankly, to me (and I can be extreme in my opinions, I know), I find cheaters vile, right up there with thieves, as it's a form of thievery. Sorry, there should be no place in any competition, in any capacity, for cheaters. None. Me, I'd have a zero tolerance for it. The penalty would be simple; banned, for life. Dont let the door hit you in the *** on the way out.


Now, compare the two. Contrast the two. Same organization. The first, bad judgment, plain and simple. The second, no less than sinister.

Crash
06-23-2013, 12:18 AM
Who won the Hawks/Bruins game??? :wink:

caseydog
06-23-2013, 12:35 AM
13 pages of btichin' and fightin'. and a brethren I actually like btichin' at me for daring to make a post in the sacred Competition forum. Yep, I wan't noting to do with competition BBQ. I enjoy cooking. I don't want you comp farkers ruining that for me.

I need to stay out of the Competition BBQ part of the BBQ Brethren Forum. I have issues, but compared to you farkers, I'm pretty farking normal.

CD

boogiesnap
06-23-2013, 07:35 AM
13 pages of btichin' and fightin'. and a brethren I actually like btichin' at me for daring to make a post in the sacred Competition forum. Yep, I wan't noting to do with competition BBQ. I enjoy cooking. I don't want you comp farkers ruining that for me.

I need to stay out of the Competition BBQ part of the BBQ Brethren Forum. I have issues, but compared to you farkers, I'm pretty farking normal.

CD

CD, i sincerely hope you didn't take my response as bitching at you, i was just trying to lend some insight. looking at competition from outside one could get turned off by stuff like this. i only wanted to give you another side of the coin.

if it came out the wrong way i apologize.

i told ya though(not you CD)....ain't nuthin good coming out of this thread anymore....

Funtimebbq
06-23-2013, 09:16 AM
I do not know the BOD members' reasons for reinstating the rep who falsified scores. Maybe it is the involvement in the new scoring system or not. Only those BOD members know. I do know, when the election period comes up, those up for reelection who voted to reinstate the rep will not receive my vote. I realize this is not going to scare any of those BODs because there are so few members who vote.

I would also encourage teams to communicate their concerns (assuming there are concerns) with this rep to let their contest organizers know. Maybe if the organizers stop using that rep, the BOD may get the message.

peterz
06-23-2013, 09:38 AM
Lock this $h!t up ! This is pointless now !

landarc
06-23-2013, 09:57 AM
Actually, I think the real underlying thing here, us that once again, it LOOKS like the old boy network of the KCBS has kicked in. Nobody can tell, as also, once again, the board has opted to simply not address the question in a public forum. And certainly they could state that The BBQ Brethren is not that place, despite a large number of members and competitors being here. But, if you have watched these things for a while, the underlying issue remains that like other times past, a BOD decision seems to favor a member if the Old Boys network

CarolinaQue
06-23-2013, 10:23 AM
Lock this $h!t up ! This is pointless now !


I think that the mod's have made it very clear that they are watching this thread. I'm sure that they are capable of determining when this thread needs to be locked or shut down. I think that we owe them enough respect to allow them to do their job as they see fit and not try and dictate how this forum should be ran.

landarc
06-23-2013, 10:42 AM
No, no, let the inmates run the asylum, what could happen?

2dumb2kwit
06-23-2013, 10:42 AM
I have never competed, in a BBQ comp., but after reading 14 pages of drama about some of them, I have learned one thing.
If I ever do compete in one, I should definitely not let anyone on my team wear an apron with a fake Atlasman on, or under, it. :becky:

landarc
06-23-2013, 10:52 AM
AAAARGH! No names, I disagree with Atlasman but, c'mon. Woodpile needs to stay there

drbbq
06-23-2013, 03:03 PM
Who would cook a contest repped by this guy in the future? Not only did he falsify the scores, he needed to do it because he was incompetent and knew so little about how the system works that he seated only 4 judges. Think about that. Sorry if this is off topic :)

Smoke'n Ice
06-23-2013, 04:44 PM
The scary part about this issue is, if as alledged, he is responsible for the new Score Program, we have let the inmates design, implement and monitor all of the contests hence forth. Something is not right here, it appears to meet the duck test and smells to high Heaven. I do believe that emails to the BOD are in order but they will fall on deft ears apparently.

BBQchef33
06-23-2013, 04:45 PM
Lock this $h!t up ! This is pointless now !


Why?:mmph:

WE do not censor, we do not stop threads because we dont 'like' the topic or the content and most importantly we will not prevent our membership from voicing there opinions and sentiments.

We moderate on a strict set of rules and guidelines and when something or someone is moderated, you can bet that whichever moderator did it is prepared to answer the question 'which rule did it break" with a very pointed and specific response.

We have been watching this thread, and have stepping in when someone approached the line. As of now, its been nothing more than a volley of varying opinion and emotion.

We have no alliance to KCBS except our common membership. Somewhere this membership has to be able to voice there opinions without fear of retribution and as long as we are monitoring it and it remains civil, this IS the place.

So, if you, or anyone sees a rule infringement, report the post and we will address it if we determine there is a problem.

deguerre
06-23-2013, 04:48 PM
I need to stay out of the Competition BBQ part of the BBQ Brethren Forum. I have issues, but compared to you farkers, I'm pretty farking normal.

CD

Pu$$y.:tongue:

kenthanson
06-23-2013, 04:56 PM
Who would cook a contest repped by this guy in the future? Not only did he falsify the scores, he needed to do it because he was incompetent and knew so little about how the system works that he seated only 4 judges. Think about that. Sorry if this is off topic :)

About the most on topic post in the last 8 pages.

sdbbq1234
06-23-2013, 05:39 PM
Here's one for ya:

If DM was responsible for his team members actions and was penalized for such, who is responsible for the KCBS reps actions and what where they penalized?

What is good for the goose it good for the gander.

Why only penalize the KCBS rep and not the KCBS BOD or whoever governs the reps?

Does KCBS not have control of their team members or, take responsibility for them?

It seems like they were trying to kill a mosquito with a sledge hammer regarding DM.

No?

wallace

Fat Freddy
06-23-2013, 07:05 PM
I was at a contest and missed the last several pages. I will do my very best to make my point without throwing people under the bus. I have never met DMP, I have only read his posts on here. And there are times I dont agree with something he puts, however in this particular incident I feel 3 year ban for him is wrong. There is my feelings so everyone understands where I am coming from as I continue.

Regarding the North Platte issue, my info is only second hand but as close as possible to being first hand. I was supposed to pit b!tch for a team but I had a family emergency come up at the very last possible moment so I couldnt go. My buddies went on and called me the next day and the story they told me was that from the beginning it was known there was not enough judges and a decision was made to short the tables of judges and for the missing scores use the table average. This really pissed these guys off, did it affect them I have no clue by the scores I doubt it but my question was if the table average was used and there were low scores then doesnt that mean a turn in that may have been spot on get that low score averaged in? Anyways this team may have been full of chit, so I called another fairly well known team that was there and got told an almost exact same story. So if that is not what happened at least 2 teams think it was. I even talked to a friend who is also a contest rep(not at that contest) and by that rep I was told a very similar story. One big difference was that there were some judges who protested how this was going to be done and it was those judges that called and emailed KCBS. I heard other things but for the sake of my typing finger and to stay on point I will stop there on that. These guys I was supposed to help said they spent way to much money to not be judged fairly and they will never do a KCBS again. I know they have done backyards but to my knowledge they have never done KCBS again.

Now to Atlasman and some others. I did not see the apron but there has been plenty of discussion about it I think I get the general idea. Regarding your children and family I completely understand your stance, I bet even DMP understands that, it was inappropriate and very poor taste. DMP stance is just that he was not directly or indirectly responsible yet he received such a hard punishment. Sadly every contest I have done there have been some real raise eyebrows moments for example I have seen the statue of David apron many times, I have seen very drunk big teams members running around wearing bras and panties over their clothes. And the stories I have heard about areas of the Royal make me wonder why DMP was punished so severely. I have recently heard other things but I think I kinda made my point. Now to the Atlasman and some others if that offends you as well then I have no issue with your side but if some of what I just mentioned doesnt bother you then I question why. Again I mainly go back to the Royal, how many teams have ever gotten a 3 year ban for their actions at the Royal. I bet very few, but I would also bet there is soo much worse that goes on. I even recall talk at some contest of a team dealing dope and getting arrested. I wonder how long a ban that they received.

And those are my points. The apron my have really irked people off, a punishment MAY have even been appropriate. But did anyone quit KCBS or BBQ comps because of the apron? The stuff with the rep did. So why is KCBS coming down so hard on one team but a rep that affects the integrity gets a much shorter ban. I am friends with board members and have respect for some of the others but in terms of the punishment I feel one group(the team) is being punished for being a nobody(no disrespect meant Daniel)while the other is getting away easy because he is part of the establishment.

drbbq
06-23-2013, 07:12 PM
Just FYI there have been many contests short of judges over the years and the solution is to have the tables judge more than 6 entries. It's been done many times.

ButchB
06-23-2013, 08:27 PM
After reading this I doubt I will ever enter another KCBS competition unless they make this right.

Fat Freddy
06-23-2013, 10:08 PM
After reading this I doubt I will ever enter another KCBS competition unless they make this right.

I hope you reconsider. It aint perfect,hell it aint even close, but there are some fantastic reps and competitors that makes KCBS a great organization too

INmitch
06-23-2013, 10:32 PM
Who would cook a contest repped by this guy in the future? Not only did he falsify the scores, he needed to do it because he was incompetent and knew so little about how the system works that he seated only 4 judges. Think about that. Sorry if this is off topic :)

That's Excactly what I was thinking! Why would a rep have only 4 cbjs at a table.......or did they loose score cards? Either way it's a huge lack of planning or flat out not doing your job!! Either way I've heard of tables judging 7 entries. Do I have a problem with that? H3LL NO! Here's scores from 4 of the 6 judges of mine from a recent comp in one of my meats. 999, 999, 966, 955.............Do I want these averaged.......well I'll let you be the judge.

Lake Dogs
06-24-2013, 06:18 AM
Perspective:

Man caught cheating in fishing derby faces jail time


http://www.grindtv.com/lifestyle/culture/post/man-caught-cheating-in-fishing-derby-faces-jail-time/

Pigs on Fire
06-24-2013, 10:16 AM
How many of you that have posted in this thread, that have a problem with the way the situation (scoring) was handled....have CALLED KCBS and let them know of your concerns?


Be honest...I'll wait for your response.

Sawdustguy
06-24-2013, 11:39 AM
I wonder if the reps or KCBS could have been brought up of fraud charges.

Icekub
06-24-2013, 06:59 PM
I think 1 year is appropriate for what happened in this instance for the KCBS rep. I think to stretch fubar'ing how to handle being short 2 judges into "cheating" is a bit much. To me cheating means doing something dishonest to affect the outcome. Should the dude have known, sure he should have, but who among us is perfect. I would do a contest w/ this rep (provided he has some experienced reps helping to point him in the right direction if something unexpected comes up).

The apron thing i'm not diving into other than to say 3 years is alot of responsibility for a teammate who offended some eyes w/ a stupid apron. The teammate gets 3, the head cook 6 mos or less. Next case please!

Alexa RnQ
06-24-2013, 08:07 PM
I think to stretch fubar'ing how to handle being short 2 judges into "cheating" is a bit much.
There are well-established procedures on what to do when short of judges.

Falsifying scorecards isn't one of them.

Pigs on Fire
06-24-2013, 08:34 PM
Bout what I figured.



The End

jasonjax
06-24-2013, 08:52 PM
Sad to read stuff like this for a guy like me who has only done amateur comps (at KCBS events) and considered going professional.

I really hate when politics and antics like these sully an otherwise awesome group of people.

My take from an outsider's view on all of this:

#1 If some dude was running around with a "real" dong picture on his apron and I was there with my kids I'd have had some very serious words, and if it was in my home town he may have been introduced to the badge. I can think of a few statutes applicable.

#2 Anyone outright cheating when money is involved has basically comitted fraud, and depending on the $$ involved could face some very serious charges.

I REALLY and TRULY hope this is very much the exception to the rule when it comes to most BBQ comps because I have only met the greatest folks and had a really good time so far. Maybe I should just stay amateur and not have to deal with this stuff.

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-24-2013, 09:29 PM
Sad to read stuff like this for a guy like me who has only done amateur comps (at KCBS events) and considered going professional.

I really hate when politics and antics like these sully an otherwise awesome group of people.

My take from an outsider's view on all of this:

#1 If some dude was running around with a "real" dong picture on his apron and I was there with my kids I'd have had some very serious words, and if it was in my home town he may have been introduced to the badge. I can think of a few statutes applicable.

#2 Anyone outright cheating when money is involved has basically comitted fraud, and depending on the $$ involved could face some very serious charges.

I REALLY and TRULY hope this is very much the exception to the rule when it comes to most BBQ comps because I have only met the greatest folks and had a really good time so far. Maybe I should just stay amateur and not have to deal with this stuff.

Sure you are brave enough to get shot at, but Bbq scares you? J/k

bbqczar
06-24-2013, 09:59 PM
All I have to say is it doesn't surprise me at all anymore what the BOD at KCBS does,it's been doing nonsense for so long that it really shouldn't surprise anyone,when they do something like this ! Cheaters are rewarded,so are some board members bad behavior at contests,it goes on and on,like Dr BBQ said,it's the same good o'l boys club it has always been,and it's not gonna change because its ALL about money,greed,and power trips,and never about doing the right,correct,and sensible things.

gettinbasted
06-24-2013, 11:45 PM
All I have to say is it doesn't surprise me at all anymore what the BOD at KCBS does,it's been doing nonsense for so long that it really shouldn't surprise anyone,when they do something like this ! Cheaters are rewarded,so are some board members bad behavior at contests,it goes on and on,like Dr BBQ said,it's the same good o'l boys club it has always been,and it's not gonna change because its ALL about money,greed,and power trips,and never about doing the right,correct,and sensible things.

Now granted, I haven't been cooking competitions long, but I have never gotten the impression from anyone I have dealt with in competition BBQ that it is all about money, greed, and power. From the organizers, to the reps, to the board members I have cooked beside, all I have ever noticed is good people trying to put on good events and have fun cooking BBQ. There are bad apples everywhere, but they are the exception and not the rule.

I don't know the full details in either case, so I can't really make a judgement.

TooSaucedToPork
06-25-2013, 05:42 AM
Kcbs has growing pains. We have been doing BBQ for a long time, and have watched KCBS grow, and cook both KCBS and MBN, as well as MIM. The KCBS organization exploded in size, and like any organization or business that grows very fast over a short period of time, a mistakes are made in management.

It's like a chain business...each contest is a store, and each is run by a manager (rep). When you are growing slowly you can take the time to pick your managers, and get to know them. You have good managers. When a company is pressed for time, mistakes are made.

The problem is when mistakes are made you must act swiftly to get rid of the problem before it tarnishes your name...I hope they decide to get rid of the problem, otherwise it will come back to bite them later down the road.

Neil

motoeric
06-25-2013, 11:24 AM
Kcbs has growing pains. We have been doing BBQ for a long time, and have watched KCBS grow, and cook both KCBS and MBN, as well as MIM. The KCBS organization exploded in size, and like any organization or business that grows very fast over a short period of time, a mistakes are made in management.
Neil


Unfortunately, there have been accusations of cronyism and a lack of transparency in the KCBS in all phases of it's growth.

I don't think that any current problems can be ascribed to growing faster than they can adapt to circumstances. If the stories are mostly accurate, the problem seems endemic.

Eric

deguerre
06-25-2013, 11:36 AM
Unfortunately, there have been accusations of cronyism and a lack of transparency in the KCBS in all phases of it's growth.

I don't think that any current problems can be ascribed to growing faster than they can adapt to circumstances. If the stories are mostly accurate, the problem seems endemic.

Eric

Just keeping up with the other traditional KC "Organizations"?

http://www.onewal.com/maf-b-kc.html

:rolleyes::becky:

deguerre
06-25-2013, 11:58 AM
Other than the three "no" voters, have there been ANY comments made in this thread by a member of the board?

Muzzlebrake
06-25-2013, 12:09 PM
As i read through what we have available, i see that a mistake made by someone under a rep with a long history of service who was terminated as a consequence. In the other case I see that we have a team consisting of 2 members banned from competing and another placed on probation for inappropriate behavior at a contest. In both cases all parties were able to explain and issue statements on thier behalf to the BOD during a closed Executive Session.

Scores were faslified at a contest under a rep's control. It seems that the rep team in question was made aware of the mistake and corrected the situation during the process. This is evidenced by only 2 of the 4 categories used "falsified" scores, the other 2 categories were apparently scored correctly IAW established procedure. The BOD also took action to ensure the scores listed were compiled accoring to procedure and the corrected scores were posted. http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=513
The rep in question subsequently reapplied after the mandated 1 year termination and was accepted into the rep in training program. http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=658

In the other event we have 3 individuals and 2 teams being disciplined for inappropriate behavior at a contest. No other details are given. http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=539

What I am not understanding about this whole thread is how may of us are willing to take a subjective leap from the discipline meted out for 2 separate unrelated offenses to equal the title of this thread, "[I]KCBS Says Cheating Better Than Offending TOTY/I]".
No where can I find any reference to cheating, offending or the Team of the Year (which I assume is what the OP is refering to by TOTY).

I think these are both egregious errors and all parties involved should have know better. They both have the ability to harm the competition process and possibly the organization as a whole should be dealt with quickly and judiciously. which I think they were in both cases.

Even using facts other than the ones on record, I see no direct correlation between either of these events nor can I see how it equates to the BOD saying they like cheats better than lewd behavior. What I really don't understand it how so many others are willing to make that leap yet they are unwilling to accept the other subjective mitigating circumstances that may have come into play.
One case involves a member with long history of service to an organization in multiple roles or an extended period of time. The other involves a non member that has a history of being a malcontent.

In one case we have a member accepting their punishment and continuing on within the organization and reapplying to once again go above and beyond that of the average member. The other chooses to not be part of the organization only to sit back and criticize it from afar.

So if some of you are so willing to jump to the conclusion that comparing these two things equate to KCBS condoning cheating over lewd behavior you will have to forgive me if I jump to another conclusion altogether. I see this as a proud organization that will take the difficult path of disciplining those that violate the rules quickly and quietly without dragging anyone through the mud.

I have no problem with an organization that is more lienent with a long time member that makes a mistake than a person that is unwilling to be part of our process yet sees fit to criticize from without. That is what paying dues every year gets you. You get to be part of process and call it your own. If you are not willing to accept that, why should an organization accept you? Some may call it the old boys network, I call it reward for being a contributing member and I have no problem being part of an organization willing to take a stong stance against an outsider and giving long time members the benefit of the doubt.

In the case of the scoring, corrective actions were made onsite and also afterward that enabled all the affected parties to be made whole. It may have been a major pain in the ass and really sucked if you were one of those, but in the end proper scores were used. How do make whole someone that gets offended by a lewd act? What can you do to make it better to those that this act affected?

TooSaucedToPork
06-25-2013, 12:59 PM
I hve no problem with an organization that is more lienent with a long time member that makes a mistake than a person that is unwilling to be part of our process yet sees fit to criticize from without. That is what paying dues every year gets you. You get to be part of process and call it your own. If you are not willing to accept that, why should an organization accept you? Some may call it the old boys network, I call it reward for being a contributing member and I have no problem being part of an organization willing to take aTy stong stance against an outsider and giving long time members the benefit of the doubt.


Both were wrong, but rules are rules, and NO ONE should ever be treated better than anyone else in KCBS where the rules are concerned. I don't care if everyone hates a team and thinks the other is Gods gift, you treat them the same. If you dont then your organizations integrity is shot to chit and its rules mean nothing.

NO ONE should EVER get preferential treatment in this organization where the rules are concerned...I dont care if you founded KCBS, you break a rule, you receive the same sentence as first time CBJ or rookie cook.

That is the problem many of us have...They don't treat everyone the same.

deguerre
06-25-2013, 01:06 PM
Then there is the theory, since someone has been identified as being a malcontent (One man's malcontent being Another man's whistle blower perhaps), that the board seized upon the first opportunity to silence, by banishment, this malcontent for a long, long time.

Teamfour
06-25-2013, 01:10 PM
Hey, I just got an email that the new KCBS scoring system is going live. Perhaps the suspended rep was reinstated to make this happen!

I love a good conspiracy theory.

Muzzlebrake
06-25-2013, 01:10 PM
Both were wrong, but rules are rules, and NO ONE should ever be treated better than anyone else in KCBS where the rules are concerned. I don't care if everyone hates a team and thinks the other is Gods gift, you treat them the same. If you dont then your organizations integrity is shot to chit and its rules mean nothing.

NO ONE should EVER get preferential treatment in this organization where the rules are concerned...I dont care if you founded KCBS, you break a rule, you receive the same sentence as first time CBJ or rookie cook.

That is the problem many of us have...They don't treat everyone the same.

All things being equal, I agree but here we are comparing apples and oranges, Sonny's case to Dan's.

Why is there no comparison to other team at the same contest that also was deemed to have acted inappropriately? That is a much more equal and equitable comparison than to another event involving a completely different set of circumstances?

deguerre
06-25-2013, 01:17 PM
I love a good conspiracy theory.

Well, you need to get Sean to STOP BEING REASONABLE AND MAKING SENSE then. Otherwise, we may as well just toss the foil...

bbqczar
06-25-2013, 01:20 PM
Both the team and the rep should have gotten the SAME sentence,both did innapproprite things at a contest,bottom line.If you don't believe there's blantent favoritism in KCBS,then you haven't paid any attention to the stuff going on the past few years.

TooSaucedToPork
06-25-2013, 01:29 PM
Dan was caught up in "penisgate" I know, but just because he likes to bi*ch about things doesn't mean he should be treated different, or have the book thrown at him

Sonny messed up, didn't follow the rules, and it effected the outcome of a contest. In business, do you allow your managers to get away with things because you like them better than others, yep...are you setting yourself up for a fair labor lawsuit...you betta believe it.

The difference between the two...Absolutely nothing. They both had people under them do stupid things. They both have to deal with the consequences handed down...

One mistake compromised the integrity of an entire contest, the other compromised a teams integrity... Big difference.

landarc
06-25-2013, 01:32 PM
I am not sure that a board member can even comment in a public forum about an issue like this. There are rules about that.

dmprantz
06-25-2013, 01:39 PM
My title of the thread came to me as follows:

When the apron incident first happened, there were two people who complained. Two. Both of these were head cooks of perennial TOTY teams and carried a lot of weight with the board. I don't doubt that the two reps, one rep in training, and contest promoter on the BOD had their own say, and I won't argue that over the course of the next 72 hours there wasn't at least one other person who contacted the board, if for no other reason than the thread on this forum getting people riled up. One of the predominant reasons given for the punishment of my teammate and me was that the wearing of the apron to awards "hurt the brand and product" of the KCBS, so a severe punishment was levied to try to ensure that it never happened again.

There are now descriptions of the rep incident which go into more and different detail which was originally published on the BOD notes. Maybe I read things incorrectly, or maybe the notes were not taken very accurately, but the way I read the original notes was that two tables were short judges, and some how fake score cards were produced. Then, as I read the original notes, the process for "missing" score cards was introduced after the fake score cards were discovered, and those score cards, not the fake ones, were used as the official scores. If that is not what happened, then I would personally like to understand better the meaning behind the official notes. The whole thing wouldn't quite make sense to me either. I don't expect to get any answers to that, but the things coming out now, just don't seem to line up with what was originally reported.

As I said, the reason for my original post and title was based in the "harm" my former teammate caused KCBS when he wore that apron. How severe was that harm relative to that caused by scoring issues, whether they were outright cheating and making up of scores, or committing a snafu and inadvertently hosing 12 teams? How many people have quit KCBS or their competitions because of what my former teammate did? How many would have quit if we had been punished less severely? How many have quit because of the scoring issues? TOTY was mentioned because I believe that had the people complaining about my partner's actions not been the two individuals that they are, the punishment would not have been as severe. Members of the BOD may disagree, but the fact is, we will never know. I apologize if the title of this thread doesn't make much sense to you, but it did to me. At the time it was written in a "WTF" moment, and was not intended to spark a 16 page (and counting) thread. I hope that at least helps you connect the dots and understand.

I was called a malcontent, and a picture was painted of me as some one who has consistently caused problems. Over a four year period of time, I competed in roughly 25 competitions, most of which were KCBS events. Over all that time and all those events, I remember one where I got angry at an organizer who lied to me and prevented me from leaving an event until the morning after awards, and another two years later where that same organizer harassed me while I was trying to build a turn in box. Aside from those two incidents, I am not aware of having any issues at any event, KCBS or otherwise. I have also had respectful dialog with the BOD in the past over other issues.

If you are referring to the posts I make here on the BBQ Brethren, many members of the KCBS BOD have repeatedly said that this is not an official communications medium with the KCBS. Even still, the majority of my "malcontent" behaviour it seems was encouraging people to not feel obligated to join the KCBS because they compete. My stance is, and has been for some time, that competitors pay the KCBS a fee to participate in events, and telling competitors who aren't members that they don't support the organization is hogwash. My teammate was a member of KCBS during last BBQ season, and I have been a member of KCBS for multiple years, but each time, I seem to get financially abused, and I respectfully choose to not continue that abuse. For the record, I never said I wasn’t a member, but a former member of the BOD violated my trust and “outed” me on it. Indeed, I once suggested that every team be required to have a KCBS member, but was told by a member of the BOD that it would violate the not for profit status of KCBS. In my opinion, if the KCBS wants to keep that NPO status, they should respect the requirements of it, and not try to guilt extort membership fees out of people. They should earn them. If you disagree, that is your prerogative.

None of this is to excuse what my teammate did. I will defend my character in this thread with the truth. If you believe that the relative punishments for the two incidents make sense (and indeed, it appears that you do), I won't harass or insult you over that opinion. Please remember though that painting a picture of my with a broad brush is fair to no one.

Thank you,

dmp

dmprantz
06-25-2013, 01:46 PM
Why is there no comparison to other team at the same contest that also was deemed to have acted inappropriately?

You want a comparison? Fine. The other guy, I'll call him Fred, had an idea and gave my former teamate an apron and suggested he wear it at awards. He then sat with him at awards, egged him on, and made sure to take a picture of him accepting the award with the apron on. For that complicity, he got one year probation.

I didn't know about the apron, didn't sit at the table with them, and didn't see it. I signed a piece of paper as the "head cook" and got treated more harshly than Fred, who's been cooking up a storm on the KCBS circuit this year.

Of course, the point was never to compare me to "Fred." It was to compare the incidents: Some one wears an adult themed apron, and the 2013 board votes 8-3 that a three year ban makes sense. A rep is involved with "invalid scoring" and the 2013 board votes 7-3 that one year makes sense. Which incident do you think hurt the brand, product, and integrity of KCBS more? If you think that they are at least equal, does that make sense?

dmp

Ron_L
06-25-2013, 02:03 PM
Other than the three "no" voters, have there been ANY comments made in this thread by a member of the board?

This has been pointed out before, but it bears repeating. This forum is not an official communications vehicle for the KCBS BOD. Some Board members are also members here and may see and participate in this thread, but it is unlikely that the rest of the BOD will even see this thread. Any official communications with the board should go through, and come from, KCBS directly.

deguerre
06-25-2013, 02:28 PM
This has been pointed out before, but it bears repeating. This forum is not an official communications vehicle for the KCBS BOD. Some Board members are also members here and may see and participate in this thread, but it is unlikely that the rest of the BOD will even see this thread. Any official communications with the board should go through, and come from, KCBS directly.

Yep. I understood that, and knew that several board members were members here too, and like the Moderators or Admin, could voice their own opinions as forum members and not members OF the board. However, not a tightrope I'd personally wish to walk though so silence is understood.

dmprantz
06-25-2013, 02:58 PM
I have no problem with an organization that is more lienent with a long time member that makes a mistake than a person that is unwilling to be part of our process yet sees fit to criticize from without. That is what paying dues every year gets you. You get to be part of process and call it your own. If you are not willing to accept that, why should an organization accept you? Some may call it the old boys network, I call it reward for being a contributing member and I have no problem being part of an organization willing to take a stong stance against an outsider and giving long time members the benefit of the doubt.

I guess something that I didn't make clear is that while you may not have an issue with this, from what I understand, the IRS does. It's the Private Bennefit Doctrine. From what I understand, if it is the position of the KCBS that they punished one person harder because he wasn't a dues paying member, they best be prepared to start paying income taxes. This is why you don't have to be a member to compete in competitions. Since the KCBS exists to promote BBQ for the public good, and not for those who increase its bottom line, I don't think it's right punish outsiders more.

Then again, what do I know? I'm just a malcontent with years of history hurting the organization. I've never been a member and never competed in the organization's events. I'm just here to stir stuff up. </sarcasm>

dmp

Hawg Father of Seoul
06-25-2013, 04:12 PM
I have no problem with an organization that is more lienent with a long time member that makes a mistake than a person that is unwilling to be part of our process yet sees fit to criticize from without. That is what paying dues every year gets you. You get to be part of process and call it your own. If you are not willing to accept that, why should an organization accept you? Some may call it the old boys network, I call it reward for being a contributing member and I have no problem being part of an organization willing to take a stong stance against an outsider and giving long time members the benefit of the doubt.


Three things. I like your fair and balanced approach.

Secondly, the state of Missouri and the IRS has a real problem with your above paragraph. If damages and your above paragraph were proven..... Dan would have standing in a FEDERAL court.

Obviously Dan should not sue even if he can prove damages and I think he has more character than that. However, I would rather he or his phallic (ex)friend have my back than an incompetent rep.

Celebrate mediocrity and see who is left with you.

landarc
06-25-2013, 04:19 PM
Three things. I like your fair and balanced approach.

Secondly, the state of Missouri and the IRS has a real problem with your above paragraph. If damages and your above paragraph were proven..... Dan would have standing in a FEDERAL court.

Obviously Dan should not sue even if he can prove damages and I think he has more character than that. However, I would rather he or his phallic (ex)friend have my back than an incompetent rep.

Celebrate mediocrity and see who is left with you.
Me :becky:

deguerre
06-25-2013, 04:25 PM
Me :becky:

You're about as mediocre as cat turd coffee. Disgusting? Assuredly. Mediocre? Assuredly not.

nthole
06-25-2013, 04:40 PM
Geez. I STRIVE to even get close to mediocrity. Bob you aren't even close to mediocre. Serious lack of integrity there. Wait... wrong thread.

Smoke'n Ice
06-25-2013, 08:03 PM
In both cases all parties were able to explain and issue statements on thier behalf to the BOD during a closed Executive Session.

Scores were faslified at a contest under a rep's control. It seems that the rep team in question was made aware of the mistake and corrected the situation during the process. This is evidenced by only 2 of the 4 categories used "falsified" scores, the other 2 categories were apparently scored correctly IAW established procedure.

I either read a different set of notes or was not privy to private information. The rep, Sonny Ashford, could not, would not, did not explain what happened on the phone call to executive session according to the notes.

Additionally, it appears that either the front office or the BOD made the corrections after the fact and insured that the final results as reported were correct by established procedures according to the notes as presented. The rep did not make the correction nor did he have an explaination about the issues.

He does have an alledged business relationship with KCBS and the new Score program and this may have been a mitigating factor in decisions, but, who knows.

Muzzlebrake
06-25-2013, 09:01 PM
I either read a different set of notes or was not privy to private information. The rep, Sonny Ashford, could not, would not, did not explain what happened on the phone call to executive session according to the notes.



sorry about that, I can see how what I wrote can be confusing.

What I was trying to say that the act of falsifying score cards was stopped and the last 2 categories were correctly scored. I agree that it was the action of the BOD at a later time that corrected the scores tabulated using the falsified results.

BBQchef33
06-26-2013, 12:07 AM
Dan was caught up in "penisgate" I know, but just because he likes to bi*ch about things doesn't mean he should be treated different, or have the book thrown at him

Sonny messed up, didn't follow the rules, and it effected the outcome of a contest. In business, do you allow your managers to get away with things because you like them better than others, yep...are you setting yourself up for a fair labor lawsuit...you betta believe it.

The difference between the two...Absolutely nothing. They both had people under them do stupid things. They both have to deal with the consequences handed down...

One mistake compromised the integrity of an entire contest, the other compromised a teams integrity... Big difference.


And that ^^^^ right there IMO, is what this thread is all about...

The Schwantz apron reflected poorly on a single team withh ZERO impact on the competitors, the outcome of the contest, the payouts, etc.. It made one team look bad, and ticked off some folks in the crowd, but had no bearing on the outcome of the event.

Now, if you look back in our archives, you will find multiple discussions over the years regarding sanctioning..'why sanction a contest?"; "Why pay the additional fees?", "what does sanctioning do for a contest?".. in everyone of those threads, you will find it stated that sanctioning, and more specifically, the reps, 'guarantees the integrity of the contest".

The scoring issue could have possibly effected EVERY team from GC down, it could affect payouts, where teams placed, who got the walks, who got the trophy and who got the checks and ultimatly, it could, if it hasnt already effected many members trust in the organization. The integrity of the contest was compromised by the very people tasked with ensuring it.

In business, and in any company(and KCBS IS a corporation)Tenure and service should never be considered when it comes to enforcing policy and procedure, so the service of the reps involved should not be part of the equation when deciding disciplinary action. What should be considered is their performance in their statements of work which in this case was an 'F'.

One was nothing more than an embarrassment, the other well.... Much worse than some bad judgment that reflects poorly on a team and an individual with no bearing on the outcome of the contest. Ever hear of a company hire back an employee that falsified a document?.. maybe as simple as lying on a resume?. Not likely. You're fired, and escorted to the door with your chit in a box.

IMO, If KCBS wants to restore member faith(of those that lost it) in their charter, the reps should have been let go for an extended period, if not permanently..



to comment briefly on the other issue, the punishment for the weenie apron, imo, should have been along the lines of other rule infringements, ie, fighting, quiet time violation, etc...

Haastyle
06-26-2013, 12:47 AM
Wow. I read all 17 pages of that....

Apron- funny. Dumb, really, really dumb, but funny. Grow some thicker skin, no wonder so many shrinks are needed. Imagine what the "offended" would do or act if something that was actually serious happen, like a car wreck, or house burn down, or one of the thousands of things that could be worse. MELT DOWN MUCH?. Sack up, pun intended.

False Scores- Unforgivable, period. You can not "kind of" walk off a cliff. The reason rules are set is to ensure the field is 100% level and judged the same. Either it is, or it isn't. If it isn't, then what is the purpose of holding a Competition? There isn't one. Some are more equal that others? Nope, no way man. Total BS.

That truly concerns me. I have only competed in a few event but I will say the leap of faith I'm taking is in question. I personally need to be assured in the integrity of the process or I'm out. I don't have that kind of cash to fling around on a maybe.