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View Full Version : No judges "Doggie Bags" at Red, White, and BBQ


SCSmoke
05-17-2013, 09:32 AM
I like the idea. I would like to hear the opinions from both the cooks and judges on here.

From their facebook page:

"I know there has been a lot of discussion on various sites and pages about judges taking "doggie bags". Well, a decision has been made regarding the judges and coolers. The thought process behind this decision was based on several items.

First, we do not want to give the competitors the illusion that they are not being judged fairly.
Second, we do not want to slight the judges as they do a valuable service for the BBQ world
Thirdly, KCBS has no "direct" rule regarding this. Any decision is solely up to the competition.

So, with that being said, as chairman, I will state the following:
For the competition,
1. No coolers will be allowed in the judges tent. Judges are to leave their coolers in their car.
2. NO samples will be allowed to be kept from a judges plate for them to take home. This could be a serious health issue. Sorry, this is the way it will be. Table Captains shall be charged with ensuring this happens.

All judges for the RWBBQ 2013 were sent an email of this decision."

deguerre
05-17-2013, 09:37 AM
Well, it IS a competition, not a catering event...

Cast Iron Chef
05-17-2013, 09:39 AM
Not a judge but the doggie bags seemed like their reward for volunteering their time. I guess I would be more upset if my food went into the trash rather then taken home. If this doesn't slight the judges do they get something else in return?

Podge
05-17-2013, 09:42 AM
Why does a judge need a reward for volunteering their time?!?!?.. Judges do it for the love of being a judge at a BBQ contest. I want any judge, judging my food, to take big, fair bites of my submissions. If they want leftovers to take home, I'm sure some teams can accomodate.

Alexa RnQ
05-17-2013, 09:43 AM
I am fully in favor of banning coolers from the judging tent.

There was a contest not too long ago where judges canceled at the last minute because coolers would not be allowed. That alone says to me that a cooler ban will flush out some who shouldn't be in the tent.

big brother smoke
05-17-2013, 09:52 AM
I could care less what someone would take home, but I will say this, taking home food that has been bit through is just plain old weird! Let alone fighting for the right to do so :shock:

Ron_L
05-17-2013, 09:53 AM
For the judges at Westmont who want BBQ to take home there are several teams who are planning on donating leftover food. That way they can do their job in the judging tent and still have something to take home (and we promise not to take bites out of everything first :becky:)

Cast Iron Chef
05-17-2013, 09:58 AM
(and we promise not to take bites out of everything first :becky:)

Is that before results?

Ron_L
05-17-2013, 10:01 AM
Is that before results?

If you want me to personally bite your BBQ samples, I will gladly provide that service, before or after :becky:

Pigs on Fire
05-17-2013, 10:12 AM
Not a judge but the doggie bags seemed like their reward for volunteering their time. I guess I would be more upset if my food went into the trash rather then taken home. If this doesn't slight the judges do they get something else in return?


I suspect the judges could take home all they want if they start visiting with the teams after turn-ins are over. One team might say no, the next three might be handing it to the judge(s) faster than they can put it in the cooler.

Maybe not every event, but for most, I would say this would be the norm.

Rich Parker
05-17-2013, 12:16 PM
On one hand, I really don't care what people do with the food after they take a bite, but I really don't like to hear about judges nibbling food just so they have more to take home.

Just like everything else a select few ruin it for the rest.

bodcat
05-17-2013, 01:07 PM
What happens now when a judge trys to eat as much as they can and by the time they get to brisket they are so full they can't judge it fairly?

Some of these judges drive for hours to judge, some stay in hotels, etc etc. There time and money volunteered should be appreciated more. I think they should be able to do whatever they want with the leftover samples. I have always thought of it as a small reward. I have cooked a couple contest where they have given the teams a foil pan for any extra food to donate to the rest of the volunteers working the event. I always thought that was a good idea.

Ron_L
05-17-2013, 01:15 PM
I suspect the judges could take home all they want if they start visiting with the teams after turn-ins are over. One team might say no, the next three might be handing it to the judge(s) faster than they can put it in the cooler.

Maybe not every event, but for most, I would say this would be the norm.

My only concern with this is judges being able to identify a team's food after a while. We regularly see the same judges around here and it is possible that they would be able to identify the team that turned in a box by the taste. Of course, the chance of them getting my box is low, and then they would have to act on that knowledge, but it could happen.

I'd rather donate some leftovers in a foil pan and have them made available to the judges and volunteers blindly.

What happens now when a judge trys to eat as much as they can and by the time they get to brisket they are so full they can't judge it fairly?

Some of these judges drive for hours to judge, some stay in hotels, etc etc. There time and money volunteered should be appreciated more. I think they should be able to do whatever they want with the leftover samples. I have always thought of it as a small reward. I have cooked a couple contest where they have given the teams a foil pan for any extra food to donate to the rest of the volunteers working the event. I always thought that was a good idea.

The issue is that judges have been observed taking the smallest possible "bite" out of a sample in order to have more food to take home. It's hard to get an idea of the taste and tenderness when you are nibbling on the edge of a rib.

sfisch
05-17-2013, 01:17 PM
There is usually a lot of food leftover from turn in boxes that canbe divided up and taken home by judges after they are done. The food on the mats should be fairly eaten and not partially eaten to be saved to be taken home later.

Skip
05-17-2013, 02:00 PM
Is it your food or theirs? Are you judging or them? Does it really matter what they do with whats leftover? I really can't see how this bothers any of you. The judge sits and tastes then saves whats left. Most judges take one or two bites. Of course any judge seen purposefully trying to eat as little as possible will be identified by the table captain and reported. I think you will just alienate them by telling them what they can do with their food.

With how picky people are about the food they eat I find it hard to believe they will be willing and or satisfied picking through the scraps table. As well thats for the table captains and volunteers.

Jacked UP BBQ
05-17-2013, 02:00 PM
I rather see the food leave then get tossed in the garbage and wasted. If they will not allow take homes, they should at least donate the left overs as long as it can be done sanitary. I bet a staving homeless man would love to eat all the food that they are going to waste.

bignburlyman
05-17-2013, 02:15 PM
So, with that being said, as chairman, I will state the following:
For the competition,
1. No coolers will be allowed in the judges tent. Judges are to leave their coolers in their car.
2. NO samples will be allowed to be kept from a judges plate for them to take home. This could be a serious health issue. Sorry, this is the way it will be. Table Captains shall be charged with ensuring this happens.

All judges for the RWBBQ 2013 were sent an email of this decision."

This is a little bit of a hot button issue. Up front I would say it would not affect my decision to judge. I question if this applies to building a box from the extra that is in the turn in box for the table captains and volunteers? It is difficult when from childhood on I have been conditioned to not waste food.


I could care less what someone would take home, but I will say this, taking home food that has been bit through is just plain old weird! Let alone fighting for the right to do so :shock:

I guess I disagree that it is weird for me to take a bite (or eat half of a slice of brisket), put the rest in a baggie and into a cold cooler, and eat it the next day. It is just a leftover. And usually I do the pull test on a brisket slice and pull it in half, then eat 1 of the halves.

There is usually a lot of food leftover from turn in boxes that canbe divided up and taken home by judges after they are done. The food on the mats should be fairly eaten and not partially eaten to be saved to be taken home later.

Most contests reserve that leftover food for the volunteers and table captains. That was my first question was do you stop doing that for food safety reasons? Those boxes the chicken sits in for at least 2 hours, and not in a cooler.

I know one judge that told me he judged a contest that had an extra category before chicken, and by the time he got to brisket he could only chew the brisket to get the taste and tenderness, then spit it into his napkin---he just couldn't eat any more. Would (could) this affect the score? I would hope not. Taking a tiny nibble is wrong, but I don't think many judges would be able to eat every bite of every category, I know I couldn't and I am a big guy, (bignburly :icon_smile_tongue: )

bignburlyman
05-17-2013, 02:26 PM
For the judges at Westmont who want BBQ to take home there are several teams who are planning on donating leftover food. That way they can do their job in the judging tent and still have something to take home (and we promise not to take bites out of everything first :becky:)

That is great of the teams to do this. At the Kansas Winter Q here we judge in the Army reserve building and ask the teams if they don't keep their leftovers to bring the extra up and we put it in the soldiers fridge for them to enjoy.

motoeric
05-17-2013, 02:35 PM
If you want me to personally bite your BBQ samples, I will gladly provide that service, before or after :becky:


Is 'BBQ samples' a euphemism?

Eric

motoeric
05-17-2013, 02:43 PM
I am fully in favor of banning coolers from the judging tent.

There was a contest not too long ago where judges canceled at the last minute because coolers would not be allowed. That alone says to me that a cooler ban will flush out some who shouldn't be in the tent.

Was the announcement that they can't bring coolers made at the last minute? If so, cancelling at the last minute seems less unreasonable.

I would also suggest that their cancelling may have had more to do with their feeling slighted or insulted by the insinuation that they aren't capable of acting like a responsible adult and put fair sampling above their wish to have more abundant left-overs.

Eric

motoeric
05-17-2013, 02:47 PM
I suspect the judges could take home all they want if they start visiting with the teams after turn-ins are over. One team might say no, the next three might be handing it to the judge(s) faster than they can put it in the cooler.

Maybe not every event, but for most, I would say this would be the norm.

First off, that's a very generous response. Unfortunately, there's often a non-tangible wall of separation between judges and teams. It sometimes feels that judges are guests at an event and the teams ARE the event. It might be very awkward for a judge to go around to teams asking for left-overs. There's sort of an Oliver Twistian aspect to the prospect.

Maybe the organizer could provide teams that would be happy to hand some out with a flag or other designator? Judges could be told to visit teams that have the blue flag and those teams might have some extra food.

Just a thought.

Eric

Stoke&Smoke
05-17-2013, 02:50 PM
The food on the mats should be fairly eaten and not partially eaten to be saved to be taken home later.

So are you saying the judges should eat 6 whole pieces of chicken (out on a limb here saying mostly thighs) 6 ribs, 6 or more whole pieces of pork (I say more in case there is pull, chunk, and sliced submitted, and 6 slices of brisket. That's a lot of meat in one sitting:shocked:

This is a non-issue for me...don't care either way

DriverWild
05-17-2013, 03:19 PM
In my opinion judges should be there to judge not eat and take home what's left over. I judged my first comp recently and as a competitor, I was a taken back a little by how excited the judges were to take food home. A few said it was the best part of judging. Unless you're a MCJ it's difficult to get in, maybe this would be a good way to weed out the eaters vs judges? Not everyone will agree but it's my opinion.

Ford
05-17-2013, 03:33 PM
No coolers. Been saying it for 10 years. Any person who thinks putting hot food in a cooler with an ice pack for 6 hours is safe is asking to get sick. I turn in food to be judged. Not to feed people at home.

Alexa RnQ
05-17-2013, 03:36 PM
Was the announcement that they can't bring coolers made at the last minute? If so, cancelling at the last minute seems less unreasonable.

I would also suggest that their cancelling may have had more to do with their feeling slighted or insulted by the insinuation that they aren't capable of acting like a responsible adult and put fair sampling above their wish to have more abundant left-overs.

Eric
No insinuation was made by the organizers -- it was a straightforward transmission of stipulation made by the local health department.

I would hope that responsible adults would willingly do everything possible to ensure that the contest could comply with HD demands.

deguerre
05-17-2013, 03:40 PM
No insinuation was made by the organizers -- it was a straightforward transmission of stipulation made by the local health department.

I would hope that responsible adults would willingly do everything possible to ensure that the contest could comply with HD demands.

THAT is even MORE telling.

boogiesnap
05-17-2013, 04:58 PM
c'mon. just have someone come around and collect some leftovers from each category from teams, put the full pans on a table and let the judges have at it, buffet style. i know i have PLENTY of GOOD food left after a contest. i'd be more than happy to donate to the judges some if not all.

boogiesnap
05-17-2013, 05:02 PM
then again, that might not work either....you may find you'd get judges just coming for the "free buffet".

Skip
05-17-2013, 05:17 PM
It might be very awkward for a judge to go around to teams asking for left-overs.
Eric

As well as the speed at which most teams breakdown. Unless you speed out of the judges tent and come straight to my tent the food will probably be away or in the garbage. Food safety at a hot contest has that food chilled or thrown away by then. Figure the chicken would be nearly 2 hours out of the cooker.

Skip
05-17-2013, 05:22 PM
I'd rather see them weed out the poor judges then the ones who bring food home. Get rid of the guy who never gives 9's because no one is perfect or the guy who tells you how your food should be cooked before you worry about the bachelor or spinster who makes a meal the next day.

Scottie
05-17-2013, 05:32 PM
I pushed for this. I am the BBQ comp guy on the committee. I also have set it up so teams can donate some food to the volunteers first and then the judges.

I just ask if teams or CBJ's have a problem with it to PM me directly. They listened to my recommendation. There was some dissent, but everyone was in agreement. I hops other co tests can follow the lead and do this. This is no slight to judges, except the one's that didn't take full bites, just so they can have leftovers.

The_Kapn
05-17-2013, 05:44 PM
We have retired from competition, so don't have "a dog in this fight" anymore.

But....
A few years back, an FBA organizer banned the coolers and asked that would each team, if they were so inclined, would turn in a second unmarked box with "leftovers" along side the numbered ones for real.
Those went to a grazing table for the judges, staff, and volunteers.
I think most teams did so and the folks had a bounty of BBQ to sample/taste.

Just a thought.

TIM

Smoke'n Ice
05-17-2013, 06:25 PM
I give away or throw away all of my excess bbq. I cook two briskets, two pork butts, 3 racks of ribs and at least 18 thighs and occassionaly a few breast. If any one, to incude judges, would like my excess, just ask or make it known by the organizer to the judges. In Hot Springs, the peoples choice was pork butt and all of the teams entered as the turnin was at 2 pm.

My kids and neighbors and cafe employees beg me not to bring home the excess, they, and their families, have had enough. It's not that it is bad, it is the amount and frequency. :razz:

Bratenmeister
05-17-2013, 07:06 PM
As someone said, most judges spend travel money and time (hours of driving), some also with hotel expenses, because they enjoy good BBQ and want to be a part of the process and judge fairly. I believe that any Judge that would go through this expense and hassel just to take home what is left over On their judging plate would be a rare and strange individual when its presented to them fresh off the pit on competition day. The reality is that no judge can eat 100% of every sample and the vast majority wishes that they could eat it all in one sitting. Driving 3+ hours to pocket a handful of left over BBQ samples off a judging plate is not what is going through the minds of the vast majority of judges toting coolers. Not wasting good food is the overwhelming motivation.

SaucyWench
05-17-2013, 08:33 PM
We used to take home our leftovers, if they were worth taking home. I honestly don't see why that would be a problem to a cook...it would be our germs...in fact, it would be a complement to your cooking that we wanted to keep it instead of tossing it in the trash!
There is no way I would take anything from the grazing table after it has sat for so long and had all kinds of hands in it, and I would feel strange going to a cook site and asking for a baggie of meat.
Nowadays, our cooler is used for adult beverages while we walk around after judging, visiting with our cook friends. If we were offered a beer by every competitor we've become friends with, we wouldn't need a cooler at all!

hogzillas
05-17-2013, 09:51 PM
I'd have no problem w/ it as I normally get all the bbq I can stand in the judging process so I've never taken any home also partly due to the safety issues of trying to get meat cold enough soon enough & then get it home 2+ hrs later. I see the grazing table as more for the tc, reps, turn in table, other volunteers who don't get to judge.

At a few FBA contests I judged at in the past the grazing table isn't for the timid, it's almost like the lions & hyenas on the Seregenti plains at a fresh kill site :tongue:

MikeJ65
05-17-2013, 10:39 PM
I don't take a cooler when I judge because I always have plenty of BBQ in the freezer from when I compete. That said, I do feel a bit guilty throwing really good BBQ in the trash. I totally understand the competitor perspective, but I really don't think that banning coolers will improve judging.

I am more interested in statistically balancing tables and providing more information for judges and teams so that judges know how their scores fit the 'norm' and teams know how they did relative to the other table entries and the judge's history.

fweck
05-18-2013, 09:52 AM
The leftover buffet; I want in on that!! :rolleyes: I'll just eat around that other judges bite mark; should be good to go.

Do you think that taking home leftovers is how the judges feed their family's?

I sample what I need to get a score, if there is something left I'll take it home. Not because I want to feed my family, but because I don't want it to go to waste.

Bentley
05-18-2013, 11:15 AM
If that were the case, I can assure you by the 5th Chicken turn in, I will need the trash can next to me to start spitting out the remaining samples I judge!

I dont want my left overs, but I am afraid in the last 11 years, all the meat I have thrown in the trash...That is hard to deal with...Wish it at least went to someones dog.

As far as a judges time and expense, same thoughts as if it were a team, no factor, who cares...their choice.

So are you saying the judges should eat 6 whole pieces of chicken (out on a limb here saying mostly thighs) 6 ribs, 6 or more whole pieces of pork (I say more in case there is pull, chunk, and sliced submitted, and 6 slices of brisket. That's a lot of meat in one sitting:shocked:

This is a non-issue for me...don't care either way

Arlin_MacRae
05-18-2013, 02:10 PM
My wife and I both judge. Neither of us can eat every part of each sample and make it through to brisket without being stuffed, so we eat two bites (OK, if it's really good I might go three) and the brisket turn-in gets a fair chance because we're not stuffed. We don't need to take the good leftovers home, but we DO. We were both raised by Depression era parents and it was drilled into us to eat everything on our plates and we just can't waste good food so we DO take the good stuff home. She's got a baggie and I have one. We munch on that for a week and didn't have to waste great Q.
We've judged where coolers were banned and we've judged where the rep provided containers for judge to use for their leftovers!
We've all heard the stories about the "judges" who are only there for the free grub. That's deplorable and if there was a way to weed them out that would be great. There's no room in the KCBS for those folks.
If coolers were banned at all comps I doubt we'd stop judging, but it would seem mean-spirited, honestly.
As far as the health aspect, if a judge gets sick taking food home that's on them. If it's not done already, include the danger warning in the briefing or even on the CD, but banning coolers because SOME people are stupid isn't right. Of course in our society we already put up with that crap. Treat everyone like they're stupid and nobody can sue someone. Nice.

jmoney7269
05-18-2013, 05:16 PM
I am fully in favor of banning coolers from the judging tent.

There was a contest not too long ago where judges canceled at the last minute because coolers would not be allowed. That alone says to me that a cooler ban will flush out some who shouldn't be in the tent.

Yeah their called eaters! And good riddance!

BRBBQ
05-18-2013, 05:27 PM
"No judges "Doggie Bags" . Seems like his comment pertains to judges, not donating to homeless people. I cant see any judge figuring out what team cooked unless there's only 5 teams compeating every week :shock: If I took some food home it was beacuse I didnt want to waste it plain and simple. :thumb:

accuseal
05-18-2013, 07:11 PM
Right up there with dumpster diving and blue hairs going to restaurants with a baggie in their purse.

Sawdustguy
05-18-2013, 07:53 PM
I actually think this whole thing is bullchit. I think very few judges eat less on purpose to take food home. I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion by some cooks that needed an excuse for not winning. Give me a break.......:tape::evil:

Alexa RnQ
05-18-2013, 08:21 PM
I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion by some cooks that needed an excuse for not winning.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll stand on our record and disagree.

Funtimebbq
05-18-2013, 09:14 PM
I think it is important to include no grazing either if in fact part of the reason is health and safety. It's important to be consistent in your beliefs. That excess food just sits for a couple of hours. Most judges who are taking their food home at least have some sort of ice/cooler.

Scottie
05-18-2013, 09:36 PM
I pushed for it and will stand with my record and need no excuses... it is about being judges fairly. Do all judges do this? Absolutely not. But it is like anything else that one bad apple can ruin the whole bunch.

daedalus
05-18-2013, 10:24 PM
First, a couple of points so you know where I am coming from.

1. I don't take food home. I have taken the occasional baggie of brisket or pork in the past if I intended on making chili the next day or something, but for the most part, If I like it, I eat it right then and there. For me, it is typically just not worth the hassle.

2. I have judged nearly 100 contests, and have literally never, not one single time, noticed another judge sitting at my table not sampling or barely sampling an entry.

3.I also compete. Not often as I would like too, but I am out there when I can.

4.It is my opinion that Wasting food unless there is a truly compelling reason is wrong. Plain and simple.

Now having said that, my first question is where this issue is really coming from in the first place? Are there any reliable sources with first hand knowledge of this going on in great enough numbers to warrant this sort of all-encompassing ban? I realize that just because I have not encountered such behavior doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I would think that if it was this pervasive an issue, I would have run across it happening at least once.

As to the apparent concession by some to the idea that wasting food is perfectly acceptable, it is my opinion that If someone will eat it, then they should be allowed to do so. The fact that it sounds like many of my fellow competitors would condone, much less demand, this sort of gross wastefulness is frankly a bit distasteful to me.

I understand the food safety argument, and I can see where the HD's are coming from, but I think that banning coolers is the least elegant solution possible. I think that a simple waiver would eliminate any real liability. If a judge wants to take food home, it should be entirely at their risk. If they are too stupid to care for the food properly, they deserve to get sick.

The suggestion that if the judges wanted food to take home, they should just go to some of the teams after the judging and ask for some is just silly. In typical contest, the judges will not really start coming out of the judging area for nearly 30 minutes after last turn in. By then, most of the teams are either packing up, or sitting around in half-a-coma because of what they just went through. Either way, you have to be pretty good friends with a team to feel comfortable popping into their area and asking for food.

Please understand that I do not believe that the judges are necessarily "entitled" to take food home. It should be up to the governing body, in this case the organizer(or HD), to decide whether or not take-home food is allowed. It should be known up front, and then a particular judge can decide if they want to participate in that contest or not. It would just be another factor in deciding where to judge...no different than indoor vs. outdoor judging, swag from a particular event, or how close the contest is. It would also give teams the same chance. If a team really feels that they won't get a fair shake if the judges are allowed to take food home, they can just not cook that contest. I wonder if the numbers of teams or judges would really change very much. It would be an interesting study.

MWRobison
05-19-2013, 11:55 AM
Having only judged 26 contests in the past three years, I don't have the full range of experience as some of the other posters, but I can also say that I have not seen judges only taking small bites so as to have more to save for taking home.
I'm also a certified KCBS table captain and I have never seen any judge nibble an entry. My wife, who is also a judge, has only seen it once.
Also, keep in mind that that you don't need to take 3-4 bites to know what something tastes like- do you take 3 big bites of undercooked chicken/pork before you decide it's bad? I think not.
As someone else noted, if you eat all 24 entries in a contest, you will be too full to do a good job, so all the judges I know pace themselves to be able to focus on judging accurately.
Finally, to those who expressed the idea that no one would want to eat leftover BBQ entries, how many of you just throw away all the remaining meat, once you've built your boxes? After all, it's now "leftovers".
BTW, I would say that about 50% of the judges take food home- the rest just toss the food.
Both cook teams and judges put in time, effort and money to support competitions and for the judges,being able to take home some of the really good BBQ we get to judge is a benefit, I would be sad to see go away.

Rich Parker
05-19-2013, 01:23 PM
Having only judged 26 contests in the past three years, I don't have the full range of experience as some of the other posters, but I can also say that I have not seen judges only taking small bites so as to have more to save for taking home.
I'm also a certified KCBS table captain and I have never seen any judge nibble an entry. My wife, who is also a judge, has only seen it once.
Also, keep in mind that that you don't need to take 3-4 bites to know what something tastes like- do you take 3 big bites of undercooked chicken/pork before you decide it's bad? I think not.
As someone else noted, if you eat all 24 entries in a contest, you will be too full to do a good job, so all the judges I know pace themselves to be able to focus on judging accurately.
Finally, to those who expressed the idea that no one would want to eat leftover BBQ entries, how many of you just throw away all the remaining meat, once you've built your boxes? After all, it's now "leftovers".
BTW, I would say that about 50% of the judges take food home- the rest just toss the food.
Both cook teams and judges put in time, effort and money to support competitions and for the judges,being able to take home some of the really good BBQ we get to judge is a benefit, I would be sad to see go away.

It is good to hear from seasoned judges that they don't see the "nibblers" in the tent as much as the cooks hear about it. Like Scottie mentioned above it is always a few bad apples that ruin it for the rest.

When I sample my bbq before or after putting it in the box, I always throw away the piece I sampled. For the bbq that didn't get sampled; chicken always gets tossed, ribs sometimes dependent upon how they turn out, pork goes home normally to sell, and brisket goes home for me to eat. At Westmont this year, I will bring a pan of chicken, ribs, and pork to the judges tent for the volunteers and judges.

Alexa RnQ
05-19-2013, 02:01 PM
As many of you know, BBQTV posts videos on YouTube that include shots of the judging mats after judging, with audio of judges discussing the entries. These videos originate from all regions.

These still shots are taken from those completed judging mats. Can you indicate to me where a healthy bite has been taken from each sample to provide a fair basis for judging?

http://www.divaherself.com/bbqtv1.jpg http://www.divaherself.com/bbqtv2.jpg http://www.divaherself.com/bbqtv4.jpg

EatonHoggBBQ
05-19-2013, 02:59 PM
I have judged over 60 contests and I see nibblers all the time. They take one little bite off of the end of their sample then quickly fill out their score card and turn it in. Then they stuff the remaining nearly pristine samples into their zip-loc bags and put them in their cooler. It's amazing. They have all of this accomplished buy the time I am on my third sample. Gheezzz!!!! :clap: I SUPPORT NO COOLERS IN THE JUDGES TENT :clap:

Skip
05-19-2013, 03:23 PM
I have judged over 60 contests and I see nibblers all the time. They take one little bite off of the end of their sample then quickly fill out their score card and turn it in. Then they stuff the remaining nearly pristine samples into their zip-loc bags and put them in their cooler. It's amazing. They have all of this accomplished buy the time I am on my third sample. Gheezzz!!!! :clap: I SUPPORT NO COOLERS IN THE JUDGES TENT :clap:

If this is happening on a regular basis then I retract everything I said. I just hope your experience is the exception not the norm.

Pappy Q
05-19-2013, 03:47 PM
I don't think taking home food should be allowed, for no other reason than it just seems tacky to me. And I don't buy the reasoning that someone doesn't want to see food wasted when the truth is they just want something to eat at home. I turn in a box to be fairly judged by "qualified" judges, not to be taken home for dinner, lunch or ingridents in someone's chili, soup, salad etc.

carlyle
05-19-2013, 04:21 PM
Obviously a hot button issue here.

What I want to see from the organizers, committee people, teams, and judges who were there is a report after the event - how did this work out for you from your particular perspective???? Does banning coolers really make a difference in the contest for you when you are looking at it in the rear view mirror? If teams are giving away left overs, how do you work that and how is it received?? And how do you deal with a cook and judge coming face to face with competition entries where they can easily be noted and identified the next time a judge encounters them???

Our contest is only 5 years old - 6th in a couple of weeks. There have only been 2 judges I won't let come back due to cooler stuffing. It is something that I look out for as judging is going on.

And the left over table - that is for table captains and all those volunteers who are out there busting their behinds to put on our festival weekend.

Bratenmeister
05-19-2013, 04:31 PM
Judging a BBQ contest seems to me to be an incredibly inefficient and silly way for anyone to spend a Saturday to aquire meat be taken home for dinner, lunch or ingridents in someone's chili, soup, salad etc.

People have witnessed nibbling judges. Are all the nibblers carrying coolers or do they have some other quirk or motivation for nibbling? Who knows. The pics from the bbq channel do not shed light on the judges' motivations, although they do seem to show entries that might not have been given a fair taste.

The most important thing happening in the judges tent is fair judging, and cooks should come away feeling that they had a fair shot. If eliminating coolers will also eliminate this issue and distraction, then perhaps a universal ban on coolers is the best option put this issue to bed. I suspect, however, that it would not end nibbling for the rare judges that do.

kurtsara
05-19-2013, 04:39 PM
Finally, to those who expressed the idea that no one would want to eat leftover BBQ entries, how many of you just throw away all the remaining meat, once you've built your boxes? After all, it's now "leftovers".



the remaining meat is leftover but not leftover that has had a bite take out of, so there is no saliva sitting on the meat until you eat it again.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-19-2013, 05:56 PM
As someone said, most judges spend travel money and time (hours of driving), some also with hotel expenses, because they enjoy good BBQ and want to be a part of the process and judge fairly.

And how do you think that compares to the time, travel, work, and money the comp teams deal with? If this rule stops even a fraction of 1% it's worth it. A judge will lose nothing but some gross left overs. A team has a helluva lot more on the line and a lot more to lose. Have the event organizer ask the teams for left overs and you will find plenty that will step up and feed the eaters. God know's they deserve it for the huge sacrifice they make.

Bratenmeister
05-19-2013, 06:24 PM
And how do you think that compares to the time, travel, work, and money the comp teams deal with? If this rule stops even a fraction of 1% it's worth it. A judge will lose nothing but some gross left overs. A team has a helluva lot more on the line and a lot more to lose. Have the event organizer ask the teams for left overs and you will find plenty that will step up and feed the eaters. God know's they deserve it for the huge sacrifice they make.

Nothing I wrote ever suggested that judges deserve to take home leftovers because they have expenses, time, etc.

CivilWarBBQ
05-19-2013, 07:53 PM
Judges are not allowed to take food from the judging tent at any contest I supervise. This policy is stated up front on the judges application - if it's a deal breaker for any CBJ, they simply need not apply and look for another event. We do make arrangements for those judges who wish to take home food to obtain it from teams in a safe manner that does not affect the judging process.

I've never had a problem getting all the judges needed.

As to the argument about wasting food: if this is a personal concern you should avoid competition cooking entirely. Large quantities of food are thrown away at every contest in every stage, from preparation and trimming to the grazing table. More than a few cooks simply discard cooked meat they have not used for turn-in. If you define waste as food that is not consumed, then the entire process is wasteful by definition. On the other hand all that meat, produce, spice and sauce is paid for and the producers benefit from the sale the same as if it were consumed, so by that measure there is no monetary waste.

QN
05-20-2013, 08:17 AM
I'll chime in and add my .02 for what it is worth...
I have judged over 170 contests over the last 12 years. I do not take any food home from any contest. Whatever is left on my judging plate after the card is filled out goes in the trash. Yes, I do see nibblers at many contests and yes, I do see folks that appear to be more interested in filling a cooler. Many of the contests I go to do not allow any take home food at all. Generally, the rule is that nothing leaves the judging tent. I just don't see how a nibbler can fairly assess an entry by taking only a small taste of it. Photos above from Alexa are not unusual at all.

Jorge
05-20-2013, 08:46 AM
First off, that's a very generous response. Unfortunately, there's often a non-tangible wall of separation between judges and teams. It sometimes feels that judges are guests at an event and the teams ARE the event. It might be very awkward for a judge to go around to teams asking for left-overs. There's sort of an Oliver Twistian aspect to the prospect.

Maybe the organizer could provide teams that would be happy to hand some out with a flag or other designator? Judges could be told to visit teams that have the blue flag and those teams might have some extra food.

Just a thought.

Eric

Is it possible to have a BBQ contest without teams? How about without CBJs? The latter happens every weekend. I prefer certified judges, but at the end of the day there is ample evidence that non-certified judges tend to get it right as well.

Your proposed solution sounds reasonable.

ModelMaker
05-20-2013, 09:28 AM
Boy, I've tried to keep my mouth shut for a few days now, but you know me....
Oh boo hoo hoo, I'm not a Grand Champion because some judges don't eat all the food and some have coolers and travel for hours to get $8.00 worth of sometimes questionable BBQ. I'm really really tired of the coolers make me lose whine.
Hows about this, judges if you do indeed notice one of these "nibblers" how about after the catagory is over politely mention to them the problem and the solution, if that doesn't fix the problem after next catagory ask rather loudly of the table captain to please request the presence of the Rep and present the situation to them and let them handle it.
If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem. If you see a crappy judge and do nothing then you will continue to have to read these annoying threads forever.
Ed

Juggy D Beerman
05-20-2013, 10:55 AM
I have judged quite a few contests over the years and here is my main observation. The judge giving the lowest scores is usually the judge with the most food in their cooler.

I never forget what I overheard at one contest several years ago. My son had just turned in his Kids Q entry and there were two people conversing about judging. A lady was asking someone who had judged the previous year on what to expect as to judging. He informed her that he was not judging this year, but this is what she should do. "Take little bites and take all the food home that you can because most of it is very good."

Needless to say, I have not returned to that contest.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I am dead set against judges taking the left-over food home from the entries they have judged. Judges are not allowed to take notes, pictures or discuss the entries while other judges are still rating the entries.

Why do we allow them to take the entry home with them?

One thing that chaps my hide is this. I have witnessed judges rush through "sampling" and "rating" the entries and then bag up certain entries while leaving other entries on their judging placemat. This was done while some of the other judges were still judging entries.

Now we do not allow discussing the entries until all the cards have been turned in. Isn't the above scenario nonverbally telling the other judges that you preferred some of the entries over the others?

I proposed several years ago the idea of teams submitting their leftover entries for the judges to take home if they wanted to. I see that other folks have made this suggestion too. Hats off to Scottie for his work!

Lager,

Juggy

Podge
05-20-2013, 12:23 PM
I do not spend $1,000 per contest, take two days off from work, so a judge or two can have a decent doggie-bag in their cooler, give me a screwed up score, knock me out of a decent placing in a catagory or even a GC.

I tell ya what would be nice, is if the judges AND cook applications would both say "Coolers are allowed" or "Coolers are not allowed"... It'd be interesting to see how it would affect their turnout, in both judges and cooks!!

Untraceable
05-20-2013, 12:31 PM
I think 6 samples in 4 categories of meat should be enough of a treat for judges. To think they feel like they deserve more is ridiculous IMO.

Uomograsso
05-20-2013, 01:14 PM
+1 for what daedalus said. I am a MCBJ and have been judging since 2008. First off, how many of the cooks complaining here have judged a contest? In all the contests I have done I have only seen one judge who I considered to be there for the food to take home rather than judging BBQ. That person was a non-certified judge. Every other judge I have sat with at a table has taken the time and effort to do the best job judging that they can. Some people may have seen some bad judging, but in 99% of the contests I have been to the judging has been fair and consistent. I routinely walk around contests after judging to talk with teams if they have time. For those that have time to talk, most have been very friendly and have offered samples for me to try.

I don't care if I get to take home left overs or not. But throwing away all that food seems like a big waste to me. In a typical contest a judge will have 4 categories from 6 teams to judge that is 24 items. If that judge takes a 1 ounce bite from each item that would be 24 oz or 1 1/2 lbs of meat and there still would probably be 75% of each entry left. It is up to the contest organizer to decide on taking left overs home, but I don't think it affects the way CBJ's judge one way or another.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
05-20-2013, 01:22 PM
Boy, I've tried to keep my mouth shut for a few days now, but you know me....
Oh boo hoo hoo, I'm not a Grand Champion because some judges don't eat all the food and some have coolers and travel for hours to get $8.00 worth of sometimes questionable BBQ. I'm really really tired of the coolers make me lose whine.
Hows about this, judges if you do indeed notice one of these "nibblers" how about after the catagory is over politely mention to them the problem and the solution, if that doesn't fix the problem after next catagory ask rather loudly of the table captain to please request the presence of the Rep and present the situation to them and let them handle it.
If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem. If you see a crappy judge and do nothing then you will continue to have to read these annoying threads forever.
Ed

Yeah the two Jack winners are just looking for an excuse...:roll:

Stoke&Smoke
05-20-2013, 01:23 PM
Man this thread has some legs!
:pop2:

Slamdunkpro
05-20-2013, 01:25 PM
Coolers are a scapegoat for the bigger issue:


As long as your check clears and you don't die during the class you get certified as a judge.
Judges aren't held accountable or made to justify their low (or high) outside the norm scores
There are no objective judging standards
There is no "judge's bulletin" or refresher to bring older judges up to the current limited judging criteria
Judges who clearly violate the rules of conduct are not disciplined or punished.

Do you still think coolers are a most pressing issue?

Teamfour
05-20-2013, 01:34 PM
One thing that chaps my hide is this. I have witnessed judges rush through "sampling" and "rating" the entries and then bag up certain entries while leaving other entries on their judging placemat. This was done while some of the other judges were still judging entries.

Now we do not allow discussing the entries until all the cards have been turned in. Isn't the above scenario nonverbally telling the other judges that you preferred some of the entries over the others?


I agree with your point. However, if I taste a really great entry, and not believing in taking good entries home I eat the whole entry, am I not also nonverbally indicating that I prefer that entry over the others?

Is the solution to mandate only one bite per entry?

Alexa RnQ
05-20-2013, 01:42 PM
Coolers are a scapegoat for the bigger issue:


As long as your check clears and you don't die during the class you get certified as a judge.
Judges aren't held accountable or made to justify their low (or high) outside the norm scores
There are no objective judging standards
There is no "judge's bulletin" or refresher to bring older judges up to the current limited judging criteria
Judges who clearly violate the rules of conduct are not disciplined or punished.



Quoted for merit.

Most pressing issue, no. Issue most likely to be successfully addressed at organizer level, yes.

mobow
05-20-2013, 01:46 PM
I too will go back and eat all of a sample if it is really good. Usually I think everyone is done scoring but from now on I will make sure all the judges are done scoring before I do so. Would be a good statement to add for continuing education of judges. Keith

Ron_L
05-20-2013, 01:54 PM
First off, how many of the cooks complaining here have judged a contest? In all the contests I have done I have only seen one judge who I considered to be there for the food to take home rather than judging BBQ. That person was a non-certified judge. Every other judge I have sat with at a table has taken the time and effort to do the best job judging that they can.

I am a cook and a CBJ. I only judge a couple of competitions a year and I have seen the "nibblers" several times.

Maybe it's a regional thing?

bbq.tom
05-20-2013, 02:01 PM
I agree with your point. However, if I taste a really great entry, and not believing in taking good entries home I eat the whole entry, am I not also nonverbally indicating that I prefer that entry over the others?

Is the solution to mandate only one bite per entry?

The solution to what you are indicating is to WAIT until everyone has turned in their scorecards before going back to "finish" the one you liked best.

riblette
05-20-2013, 02:23 PM
I actually think this whole thing is bullchit. I think very few judges eat less on purpose to take food home. I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion by some cooks that needed an excuse for not winning. Give me a break.......:tape::evil:

I respectfully disagree. Speaking just for myself, I’d like to be judged as fairly as possible. Is that unreasonable?

Judges who leave more meat on the bone at the scoring table with the intent of having more meat to take home (aka "nibblers") are compromising the contest and are not "objectively and subjectively evaluat(ing) each barbeque meat that is presented..." In KCBS land, that's a violation of their oath. I think intentionally violating the Judge’s Oath is cheating.

I'm certainly not suggesting all judges who take food home are doing anything wrong...I'm specifically calling out the "nibblers". And, yes, they are out there. I think one judge who comprises the integrity of the contest is enough cause for action...what that action should be is open for discussion.

When it comes to priorities I would put "fairness" ahead of "not being wasteful" and "not hurting the judges’ feelings". Fortunately, these priorities aren't mutually exclusive. There have been a number of suggestions laid out above that I think most cooks would be happy with.

mobow
05-20-2013, 03:58 PM
Just another piece of the total picture to give thought to. Who decided that a person has to take a big bite to be an effective judge? My wife takes much smaller bites than I do and chews with her mouth closed (which robs her of good oxygenation of the sample) but I promise you that in her small bite she is getting as good and probably a better understanding of the product than I am. Her taste buds are much more sensitive to the subtle flavors than mine. Just something to throw into the mix.
ps. Just for the record I do not care if they allow coolers or not. I see no harm in it and good food is put to a good use. But, if they want to say no more that is fine with me.
Keith

Podge
05-20-2013, 06:16 PM
mobow, seems your wife is judging the meat fairly to where she is taking the bite that is required her to do so. Nibble is something different. I'd have no issues with people like you judging, as I'd want you judging mine.

mobow
05-20-2013, 06:50 PM
mobow, seems your wife is judging the meat fairly to where she is taking the bite that is required her to do so. Nibble is something different. I'd have no issues with people like you judging, as I'd want you judging mine.

That is very kind of you say and we would give it our best effort. Might or might not have a cooler. Lol. Keith

JeffR
05-20-2013, 07:14 PM
I'm scheduled to judge my first event in a couple of months and the thought of taking home food with a bite out of it sounds disgusting. And I'm sure no one else in my house would be interested in eating eat either

mobow
05-20-2013, 07:20 PM
I'm scheduled to judge my first event in a couple of months and the thought of taking home food with a bite out of it sounds disgusting. And I'm sure no one else in my house would be interested in eating eat either

Do you take home leftovers when you eat out at a restaurant?

Pappy Q
05-20-2013, 07:39 PM
Do you take home leftovers when you eat out at a restaurant?

I don't but it's a fairly common practice. The difference in doing this is that you paid for it at a restaurant. Taking food from the judging table would be like being a dinner guest at someones home that you don't know and then taking food off your plate to take home, tacky and rude.

We cook as a professional cook team and should be judged by professional judges acting that way. Taking home food is unprofessional in my opinion. Cooks are punished for unprofessional behavior, judges should be held to same standard.

mobow
05-20-2013, 07:55 PM
I don't but it's a fairly common practice. The difference in doing this is that you paid for it at a restaurant. Taking food from the judging table would be like being a dinner guest at someones home that you don't know and then taking food off your plate to take home, tacky and rude.

We cook as a professional cook team and should be judged by professional judges acting that way. Taking home food is unprofessional in my opinion. Cooks are punished for unprofessional behavior, judges should be held to same standard.

Oh please. keith

DawgPhan
05-20-2013, 08:14 PM
Judges are not allowed to take food from the judging tent at any contest I supervise. This policy is stated up front on the judges application - if it's a deal breaker for any CBJ, they simply need not apply and look for another event. We do make arrangements for those judges who wish to take home food to obtain it from teams in a safe manner that does not affect the judging process.

I've never had a problem getting all the judges needed.

As to the argument about wasting food: if this is a personal concern you should avoid competition cooking entirely. Large quantities of food are thrown away at every contest in every stage, from preparation and trimming to the grazing table. More than a few cooks simply discard cooked meat they have not used for turn-in. If you define waste as food that is not consumed, then the entire process is wasteful by definition. On the other hand all that meat, produce, spice and sauce is paid for and the producers benefit from the sale the same as if it were consumed, so by that measure there is no monetary waste.


I think that each team got paired with a judge last year in Euharlee, right?

I remember really enjoying that experience talking with the judges after the contest and we made sure to set aside some bbq during turn ins for the judges to grab after the contest.

Anyway, I thought that was a really great way to handle the whole situation.

JeffR
05-20-2013, 10:01 PM
Do you take home leftovers when you eat out at a restaurant?

Pizza slices, half a sandwich or something ordered that didn't get eaten? Yes, that take out. Part of a hamburger I didn't finish, no. That's my point

Pappy Q
05-21-2013, 04:55 AM
Oh please. keith

That's my worthless opinion, I'm entitled to it just like you are to yours.

bignburlyman
05-21-2013, 06:58 AM
I'm scheduled to judge my first event in a couple of months and the thought of taking home food with a bite out of it sounds disgusting. And I'm sure no one else in my house would be interested in eating eat either

You have never been eating something great and said to your wife "You have to try this" and handed her the fork? Or shared your food with a young child? Everyone has a different idea of what is "gross", mine probably changed a little after having a child, lol. :shock:

mobow
05-21-2013, 07:36 AM
That's my worthless opinion, I'm entitled to it just like you are to yours.

You are right and I apologize. Keith

CivilWarBBQ
05-21-2013, 09:25 PM
I think that each team got paired with a judge last year in Euharlee, right?

I remember really enjoying that experience talking with the judges after the contest and we made sure to set aside some bbq during turn ins for the judges to grab after the contest.

Anyway, I thought that was a really great way to handle the whole situation.

Yes, that's how it worked. Out of all the teams and judges, one judge failed to show up to collect his goodie bag from their assigned team and one team disliked being asked to give food to their judge.

I'd call that a resounding success, so we're doing it again this year.

Sawdustguy
05-22-2013, 08:44 AM
This thread makes me chuckle. I have seen the threads with bitches and moans from cooks about contests that don't have 100% CBJ's. I have seen other threads with cooks bitching about the score they received. I have seen threads that simply crucify the judges. Are you guy forgetting that if there are no judges, there is no contest. The judges don't get a dime for judging......ever. Some judges travel and incur expenses. At least we as cooks have a chance to win something. The judges will never get paid for anything except for the food we ask them to judge. Why is everyone so quick to punish the Judges and take away the privilege of taking home a few scraps of food in a cooler. One day there will come a time when there will be precious few CBJ's available for contests simply because we cooks have just taken the fun out of it for them.

deguerre
05-22-2013, 08:48 AM
Stop making sense Guy, I've got some bitching and moaning to get on with.:becky:

























I don't compete or judge, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.


Actually, I might do one or both one day.

Smokedelic
05-22-2013, 09:33 AM
Are you guy forgetting that if there are no judges, there is no contest.
This comment makes me chuckle. I hope you were just joking.

If there are no TEAMS, there is no contest. Anyone with a pulse can judge BBQ. Anyone with a pulse and $75 can be a CBJ.

Scottie
05-22-2013, 09:46 AM
I believe our contest went above and beyond taking care of the judges. But I also agree with Mike. Contests seem to work in Texas and there aren't CBJ's down there. That is no disrespect to CBJ's, just a response to Guy.

hamiltont
05-22-2013, 10:03 AM
This comment makes me chuckle. I hope you were just joking.

If there are no TEAMS, there is no contest. Anyone with a pulse can judge BBQ. Anyone with a pulse and $75 can be a CBJ.

It's the ol' Chicken or Egg quandary isn't it.... Both right, and both wrong. I guess I'm not understanding where all the animosity towards CBJ's is coming from or what it's based on. I have yet to witness a judge minimizing their sample for the sake of tomorrow's lunch. I've seen some judges toss all of their samples and I've seen some keep all of their samples. I've also seen some keep the samples they enjoyed and toss the ones they didn't enjoy. What they do with the leftover samples is not my business and shouldn't be yours...

If "anyone with a pulse" can judge a KCBS Comp then why is there an emphasis on the percentage of CBJ's? I've heard a few teams saying that anything less than 100% doesn't get their attention. Then again some don't really care.

Bottom line is what the Teams do or what the CBJ's do is their business, as long as it falls within the KCBS rules. So, I'll just focus on my own business and FARK you if you think it's yours... YMMV. Cheers!!!

kenthanson
05-22-2013, 11:02 AM
it's the ol' chicken or egg quandary isn't it.... Both right, and both wrong. I guess i'm not understanding where all the animosity towards cbj's is coming from or what it's based on. I have yet to witness a judge minimizing their sample for the sake of tomorrow's lunch. I've seen some judges toss all of their samples and i've seen some keep all of their samples. I've also seen some keep the samples they enjoyed and toss the ones they didn't enjoy. What they do with the leftover samples is not my business and shouldn't be yours...

If "anyone with a pulse" can judge a kcbs comp then why is there an emphasis on the percentage of cbj's? I've heard a few teams saying that anything less than 100% doesn't get their attention. Then again some don't really care.

Bottom line is what the teams do or what the cbj's do is their business, as long as it falls within the kcbs rules. So, i'll just focus on my own business and fark you if you think it's yours... Ymmv. Cheers!!!

^^^^
+1

Slamdunkpro
05-22-2013, 11:20 AM
If "anyone with a pulse" can judge a KCBS Comp then why is there an emphasis on the percentage of CBJ's?
Good question.

Bentley
05-22-2013, 12:08 PM
Both statements true...(anyone can cook BBQ, anyone with X amount of $ can compete) guess it applies to BBQ teams too!

Wonder why Sam's Finals only wants Certified Master Judges...That one I can't figure out...



If there are no TEAMS, there is no contest. Anyone with a pulse can judge BBQ. Anyone with a pulse and $75 can be a CBJ.

Good question.

Smokedelic
05-22-2013, 12:31 PM
Wonder why Sam's Finals only wants Certified Master Judges...That one I can't figure out...

I have no idea either, however, I do know they wouldn't need them if there weren't BBQ teams competing.

On the other hand, there have been a number of Sam's Club events that have been short CBJs because judges registered and then didn't show up. Thankfully, they chose to use non-CBJs to take the place of the no-shows instead of cancelling the contest.

Slamdunkpro
05-22-2013, 01:33 PM
Wonder why Sam's Finals only wants Certified Master Judges...That one I can't figure out...
The illusion of a higher standard?:boxing::tongue:

hamiltont
05-22-2013, 01:43 PM
Wonder why Sam's Finals only wants Certified Master Judges...That one I can't figure out...

The illusion of a higher standard?:boxing::tongue:

Or maybe, just maybe the desire to have more experienced judges.

mobow
05-22-2013, 01:49 PM
Sam's doesn't allow coolers.:roll: Keith

Podge
05-22-2013, 03:36 PM
Sam's doesn't allow coolers.:roll: Keith

If you're judging at the finals ( I see MCBJ in your signature) and IF I make it past the regionals, I'll be more than happy to give you some leftovers.

Sawdustguy
05-22-2013, 03:39 PM
This comment makes me chuckle. I hope you were just joking.

If there are no TEAMS, there is no contest. Anyone with a pulse can judge BBQ. Anyone with a pulse and $75 can be a CBJ.

I would say we need them more than they need us.

If that is true, and it pretty much is. Why not just pick people off the street and ask them to Judge? Cooks are going to bitch (I include myself) anyway. Lets have something meaningful to bitch about.

The other possibility is to have professional BBQ judges. They would go through an intensive judge training course (much more than the curent hour course), they would be tested and have to do with an apprenticeship and be paid when the finished the training. They can be rated and evaluated, the whole nine yards because they at that point are professionals, they are getting paid for a service. Something $30 to $50 per contest sounds fair. It would raise contest entry fees but you may get a fairer shake. One thing is for sure there is no free lunch.

Slamdunkpro
05-22-2013, 03:43 PM
The illusion of a higher standard?:boxing::tongue:

Or maybe, just maybe the desire to have more experienced judges.

"More experienced" does not always equate to "better"

mobow
05-22-2013, 03:45 PM
If you're judging at the finals ( I see MCBJ in your signature) and IF I make it past the regionals, I'll be more than happy to give you some leftovers.

I'm not judging. But thanx for the offer and good luck too you on the path to grand champion. My post was just an attempt to bring things back on topic. Keith

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-22-2013, 03:45 PM
WAIT JUST ONE MINUTE!!!!! so you guys are all saying that some judges put left overs in those coolers???? I thought they were full of beer!:wacko:

Arlin_MacRae
05-22-2013, 04:49 PM
I have to say that I've judged turn-ins that may not have been cooked by someone with a pulse. Anybody off the street can pay the entry fee and throw some meat on the grate...

motoeric
05-22-2013, 06:50 PM
This comment makes me chuckle. I hope you were just joking.

If there are no TEAMS, there is no contest. Anyone with a pulse can judge BBQ. Anyone with a pulse and $75 can be a CBJ.

This comment is representative of the attitude that fosters an unwanted division between judges and teams.

There's some strange elitism here that has no place in BBQ. Contests are comprised of three elements - the teams, the judges and the organizers. Each is needed to hold a contest.

Anyone with an entry fee, a grill and some meat can be a competitor. Anyone with an open lot and a list of teams/judges can be an organizer.

I know many, MANY judges that travel long distances, pay their own tolls/gas/hotel, arrive early, bring food for the food drives being held, take their jobs extremely seriously and are thankful for the experience.

To minimize the role that they play is ludicrous.

Eric

Smokedelic
05-22-2013, 10:55 PM
To minimize the role that they play is ludicrous.
Eric
To minimize the fact that no one has ever failed a CBJ class and that all you have to do to become a CBJ is to write a check to KCBS and spend 4 hours on a Saturday learning to spot kale and red-tipped lettuce in a box is even more ludicrous.:wink:

You may be surprised to learn that there are BBQ organizations out there that do just fine using people off the street to judge BBQ at contests, instead of judges that have gone through a rigorous certification process.

Arlin_MacRae
05-23-2013, 06:44 AM
You may be surprised to learn that there are BBQ organizations out there that do just fine using people off the street to judge BBQ at contests, instead of judges that have gone through a rigorous certification process.
Perhaps you'd be better off competing in those organizations? Or, if you want to stay in KCBS, try comps like Stillwater's where they use those highly-rated and purely objective "celebrities" instead of judges.

Iamarealbigdog
05-23-2013, 08:12 AM
Yes there are judges out there who are only interested in a BBQ feed and how much they can get, the scoring is secondary. Thank goodness this is the rarity and not the norm.

However, if nibbling is the issue then make that the issue, not the take out box (cooler).

Hold judges accountable as well as the sanctioning body. Judges names should be on the score card and that card returned to teams. Bad judges will eventually get singled out. It is amazing how much time and consideration a judge will spend scoring when the teams see a name attached.

Where the problem lies in the process, if a table captain notices nibbling he should report the judge to the Rep. Once validated, the Rep remind the Judge of his duty and if the issue persist then suspend the judge's credentials until they take a refresher class.

It is not fair to lambaste all judges for the actions for a few.

As an organizer, a competitor and a head judge (CSBBQA) I would rather a judge put food in a cooler for later, then try to eat the whole sample. We promote the three bite rule but sometimes it's hard for them to stop there on a really good product.

I also support the organizers right to limit the coolers when the HD gets involved, their rules come first.

Just food for thought....

Cayman1
05-23-2013, 09:00 AM
I really have no problem with food being taken home by the judges or volunteers, if the judges give each entry a fair sampling. My concern with a nibbler is the same as for a judge that cleans the meat to the bone. What impression does that give to the other judges about that entry. A nibble might convey the impression that the sample wasn't very good and if another judge sees that, it might influence his/her decision in the judging of that entry. The converse is also true of a sample that is completely consumed.

You can regulate any issue to death. I personally think each entry from a team should be judged by a different judge. Who's to say that if a team has a bad day in chicken and a judge scores them down because of it, and rightly so, that if that judge is than to judge that teams ribs, he/she might not have a more negative impression of the ribs simply because the chicken was not good.

Having said this, I think KCBS, the organizers I have been around, and the majority of the judges are doing everything they can to promote a fair contest. Hey, the contest is run by humans, not computers.

hamiltont
05-23-2013, 09:37 AM
You can regulate any issue to death. I personally think each entry from a team should be judged by a different judge. Who's to say that if a team has a bad day in chicken and a judge scores them down because of it, and rightly so, that if that judge is then to judge that teams ribs, he/she might not have a more negative impression of the ribs simply because the chicken was not good.

You've never judged a KCBS Sanctioned event have you...

- Every event I've judged makes sure that each team's entry is judged at a different table.
- The judges have no clue who turned in what. The boxes are renumbered at turn in using a sort of algorithm to eliminate that possibility.

Smokedelic
05-23-2013, 09:45 AM
Perhaps you'd be better off competing in those organizations? Or, if you want to stay in KCBS, try comps like Stillwater's where they use those highly-rated and purely objective "celebrities" instead of judges.
I'm good where I'm at, thanks!

Oh....and Stillwater is a perfect example of how good teams still win despite the lack of CBJs, thank you for bringing that up.:thumb:

ModelMaker
05-23-2013, 09:48 AM
To minimize the fact that no one has ever failed a CBJ class and that all you have to do to become a CBJ is to write a check to KCBS and spend 4 hours on a Saturday learning to spot kale and red-tipped lettuce in a box is even more ludicrous.:wink:

You may be surprised to learn that there are BBQ organizations out there that do just fine using people off the street to judge BBQ at contests, instead of judges that have gone through a rigorous certification process.

Ya know your completely correct, no one has ever failed the KCBS judges certification, that's because it's not a test. The certification process simply provides a groundwork for learning the rules and procedures for judging a KCBS BBQ competition. Are you a good BBQ judge after the 4 hour class? Obviously not. Are you a good judge after 5 contests, 10 contests, NO!
Are you a BBQ judge that is learning through experience and effort,YES.
I feel kinda bad for the teams that suffered through the 2003 IA State BBQ contest, it was my first and I was not the judge I am now. I remember thinking "Wow when am I going to see a bad entry" I scored stupidly high and cooks that didn't deserve a high score shined that day.
Now after probably 40ish contests (I quit counting after 30) I'm confident that my pallet and adherence to KCBS rules and procedure make me a valuable asset to the KCBS family. You want me to judge your entry. I score using all numbers from 2 to 9. I don't flinch in giving you a 6 if your meat is "AVERAGE" but rest assured I can and do hand out 9's for excellent BBQ.
So quit condemning the process. If you want to become a good KCBS CBJ you simply need to desire it to be so. It's the individual that is or is not a good BBQ judge. Like I said earlier, if you see a truly crappy judge next to you at the table, do something about it.
Things don't get better by themselves.
Ed

Cayman1
05-23-2013, 09:55 AM
The boxes are renumbered at turn in using a sort of algorithm to eliminate that possibility.

That's not what the contest rep told me at the last comp. Box number is different than team number but the box number stays the same from then on. I have never seen any different numbers placed on boxes when turned in. They are stacked till they get 6 then taken to the judges.

hamiltont
05-23-2013, 10:01 AM
That's not what the contest rep told me at the last comp. Box number is different than team number but the box number stays the same from then on. I have never seen any different numbers placed on boxes when turned in. They are stacked till they get 6 then taken to the judges.

Boxes are renumbered at turn in and each entry (Chicken, Ribs, Pork and Brisket) are judged at different tables. I don't know how much fairer that could be....

Cayman1
05-23-2013, 11:20 AM
You are right, if it is worked that way. Just going by what I was told.

bignburlyman
05-23-2013, 11:48 AM
I really have no problem with food being taken home by the judges or volunteers, if the judges give each entry a fair sampling. My concern with a nibbler is the same as for a judge that cleans the meat to the bone. What impression does that give to the other judges about that entry. A nibble might convey the impression that the sample wasn't very good and if another judge sees that, it might influence his/her decision in the judging of that entry. The converse is also true of a sample that is completely consumed.

You can regulate any issue to death. I personally think each entry from a team should be judged by a different judge. Who's to say that if a team has a bad day in chicken and a judge scores them down because of it, and rightly so, that if that judge is than to judge that teams ribs, he/she might not have a more negative impression of the ribs simply because the chicken was not good.

Having said this, I think KCBS, the organizers I have been around, and the majority of the judges are doing everything they can to promote a fair contest. Hey, the contest is run by humans, not computers.

I don't know if I am a good CBJ, I hope that I am. As far as another judge influencing my score by whether they eat only a nibble or the whole sample, I wouldn't know, I never even look at the other judges, I concentrate on the samples in front of me. I pick up the sample, sniff it, maybe squeeze it or pull on it (pork & brisket), bite it (a good size bite), chew, and consider. Most samples I will take a second bite and consider my scoring while I chew. I write the score, then I cleanse my pallatte, swish my mouth with water, then move on to the next sample.

I have table captained several times and have never seen a judge checking out the other judges faces to see if they like or dislike a sample.

bignburlyman
05-23-2013, 11:57 AM
That's not what the contest rep told me at the last comp. Box number is different than team number but the box number stays the same from then on. I have never seen any different numbers placed on boxes when turned in. They are stacked till they get 6 then taken to the judges.

Boxes are renumbered at turn in and each entry (Chicken, Ribs, Pork and Brisket) are judged at different tables. I don't know how much fairer that could be....

Every contest I have table captained it is STRESSED to not get the same number box for your table. There is even a sheet of paper given to the table captain to write down the box numbers you get, then cross those numbers off a list of the numbers (1 to 75 i think). At a contest with lower number teams it may be impossible to never duplicate a number. I am not a math whiz, but with 24 teams and 4 judging tables (24 judges) you should be able to have each box judged by a table only once. It takes a little effort and waiting for all the entries to make sure you don't duplicate but it is the way it is done. If there are only 3 tables of judges (18 judges) you will have some entries judged by the same table.

Edit to add: This is for KCBS only, I have never attended another sanctioned contest than KCBS.

motoeric
05-23-2013, 12:17 PM
Hold judges accountable as well as the sanctioning body. Judges names should be on the score card and that card returned to teams. Bad judges will eventually get singled out. It is amazing how much time and consideration a judge will spend scoring when the teams see a name attached.



I appreciate where you are going on this and I agree that we need to get there, but giving out the judges names to teams is a very, very bad idea.

There's a certain amount of teams (usually new teams) that will blame the judges as opposed to their cooking for a low score. There are also lots of judges that wear KCBS judges nameplates to events. The last thing in the world that I want to see at a comp is a cook confronting a judge over a score.

Eric

carlyle
05-23-2013, 12:22 PM
The new scoring program, when it gets into use, is supposed to track judges while keeping the anonymity.

I think this will be a step in the right direction.

bignburlyman
05-23-2013, 12:38 PM
The new scoring program, when it gets into use, is supposed to track judges while keeping the anonymity.

I think this will be a step in the right direction.

I honestly hope you are right, BUT I am afraid that just like the idea of making comment cards mandatory for low scores, that these judges will just score everything as 7 or 8. The scoring program will hopefully flag these type judges as problems also.

Slamdunkpro
05-23-2013, 02:13 PM
The new scoring program, when it gets into use, is supposed to track judges while keeping the anonymity.

I think this will be a step in the right direction.
What's the ETA on that now? 2525?

hamiltont
05-23-2013, 02:19 PM
What's the ETA on that now? 2525?

If man is still alive...

Zager And Evans - In The Year 2525 - YouTube

Cheers!!!

bignburlyman
05-23-2013, 02:41 PM
What's the ETA on that now? 2525?

I was told by the reps at the contest I table captained 5-18-13 that the program has been delivered to all the reps and the web training was in progress. So your 2525 date may be too optimistic. :wacko::shock::doh: