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SDAR
04-08-2013, 10:13 AM
I know about BBQ Critic. I just wanted yall's opinion on this box.

Thanks.

musicmanryann
04-08-2013, 10:23 AM
Tasty looking box of beef! Those ends look yummy!! If it were me, I would have cut the bottom of the front slice so it would run in a straight line parallel with the front edge of the box. It adds to the overall symmetry and then you can run a little line the parsley all the way up the front as well. I would have also picked off the little crumbs of bark that slough off onto the front of the slices when you cut them. I also would tighten up the gaps between the parsley along the right and left hand side, especially the left. Have no idea if judges would notice these things or not, but these are the things I look at then touching up my brisket box.

jmoney7269
04-08-2013, 10:25 AM
Exquisite box, maybe it's just the picture and lighting, but it appears to have the jaggedly marks left by a electric knife. That would be the only concern if that we're the case. I have heard of judges often marking down for those "saw marks" as I call them.

Ron_L
04-08-2013, 10:27 AM
Tasty looking box of beef! Those ends look yummy!! If it were me, I would have cut the bottom of the front slice so it would run in a straight line parallel with the front edge of the box. It adds to the overall symmetry and them you can run a little line the parsley all the way up the front as well. I would have also picked off the little crumbs of bark that sough off onto the front of the slices when you cut them. I also would tighten up the gaps between the parsley along the right and left hand side, especially the left. Have no idea if judges would notice these things or not, but these are the things I look at then touching up my brisket box.

It's nice to see that we're not the only ones who are that picky :-D I don't know if the judges really notice that or not, but I feel better :becky:

9Q1
04-08-2013, 10:39 AM
Burnt ends look very nice....only thing I see is parsley could be a little more full around the sides/front (picture frame) and there is a little sauce on the inside top of the box. Other than that, pretty dog gone sweet.

jmoney7269
04-08-2013, 11:27 AM
Burnt ends look very nice....only thing I see is parsley could be a little more full around the sides/front (picture frame) and there is a little sauce on the inside top of the box. Other than that, pretty dog gone sweet.

All I can say is I'm glad we don't gotta worry bout none of that in our sanctions and that's why I love I so much. Since when did the quality of the garnish or sauce on the box become a criteria of judging BBQ? Just curious for my overall knowledge... What sanction body do most people complain about judges? Easy KCBS. They try to make rules and criteria to set them above the rest when in actuality it just brings down the experience IMO. Kinda like more govt is better kinda deals

fnbish
04-08-2013, 11:56 AM
I really like those nice big slices. Must have been an awesome thick flat. A few of the very small things other pointed out. I don't see anything else that could be touched up. Those burnt ends do look great.

SDAR
04-08-2013, 01:18 PM
I really like those nice big slices. Must have been an awesome thick flat. A few of the very small things other pointed out. I don't see anything else that could be touched up. Those burnt ends do look great.

Cutting on the bias doesn't hurt too much either. :mrgreen:

mobow
04-08-2013, 02:11 PM
As mentioned above could do the things already listed to combat any obsessive/compulsive issues but as a judge seeing the box for 3-5 seconds I would say 9 with no reservations. Keith

SDAR
04-08-2013, 04:54 PM
As mentioned above could do the things already listed to combat any obsessive/compulsive issues but as a judge seeing the box for 3-5 seconds I would say 9 with no reservations. Keith

Thanks!!, I got 3-6's, 2-7's and an 8 with that box in Stillwater OK this last weekend.

SDAR
04-08-2013, 04:58 PM
But...then again, the Elks in Stillwater thought Lotta Bull's brisket was worth a 39th finish out of 52. I doubt they had that off of a day.

Smoke'n Ice
04-08-2013, 05:06 PM
I bypassed stillwater this year(did it for the previous six years), along with several other teams that have cooked it consistantly in the past. Last year they changed the reps and the judging was questionable because no one rode herd on the cbj elks and their drinking before during and after judging. Just my own 2 cents. the box looks great and the once a year judges were at it again.

Big Poppa
04-08-2013, 05:13 PM
wow that is really some bad scoring.

sdbbq1234
04-08-2013, 05:36 PM
Thanks!!, I got 3-6's, 2-7's and an 8 with that box in Stillwater OK this last weekend.

:confused::confused:

I would like to see what they thought was a 9.

wallace

Southern Home Boy
04-08-2013, 06:05 PM
Cutting on the bias doesn't hurt too much either. :mrgreen:

I wouldn't cut on the bias unless you've inadvertantly overcooked your flat and it's too mushy.

Cutting on the bias lengthens the fibers in the slice making the slice more "chewy".

Your appearance scores MAY go up, but your tenderness will likely suffer.

Since tenderness is weighted more than appearance, you'd be doing yourself a disservice.

I'd score that box a "9" on appearance. Whoever scored it lower than an 8 is being a ridiculous, hard-ass, nit-picker - in my opinion, of course.

You have a beautiful sheen, your bark is crusty and delicious-looking, your slices are full length of the box and fill it excellently, your burnt ends are fine - they neither add nor detract from appearance, so keep them if they're REALLY good, but if they're just "ok" flavor and tenderness-wise, ditch them.

I've found that adding burnt ends hurts scores more often than it helps.

manbearpig
04-08-2013, 06:18 PM
Wow , I guess I should never complain again. That looks awesome. It's so moist and shiny. Did you spritz with water or brush with your renderings ?

RangerJ
04-08-2013, 06:23 PM
All I can say is I'm glad we don't gotta worry bout none of that in our sanctions and that's why I love I so much. Since when did the quality of the garnish or sauce on the box become a criteria of judging BBQ? Just curious for my overall knowledge... What sanction body do most people complain about judges? Easy KCBS. They try to make rules and criteria to set them above the rest when in actuality it just brings down the experience IMO. Kinda like more govt is better kinda deals

Well, its the largest sanctioning body in the US and with that come complaints. Plenty of complaints here in Texas, don't paint the picture as all roses.

I don't miss the garnish when I don't have it, but its not a big deal, honestly.

Your saying it "brings down the experience" but are you basing this on competing in a KCBS competition or just what you read on the internet?

RangerJ
04-08-2013, 06:26 PM
I know about BBQ Critic. I just wanted yall's opinion on this box.

Thanks.

Don't bring that box to Bedford....

Looks good to me, Brother.

Stoke&Smoke
04-08-2013, 06:28 PM
Solid 8, maybe a 9 in person

SDAR
04-08-2013, 06:48 PM
Don't bring that box to Bedford....

Looks good to me, Brother.

Got better scores in Bedford with product I almost had to turn in chopped.

The biggest deal to me is if KCBS wants to allow a "good time" cook like that then let us know. I don't blame the Elks. I feel like we got robbed of 1200 bucks from KCBS.

musicmanryann
04-08-2013, 06:49 PM
Wow, talk about a screw-job. I am not a seasoned judge, but I'd be hard-pressed to not give that box a 9. I was just trying to give you some constructive feedback earlier as I thought that is what you were looking for. Unfortunately, it happens in this crazy game we play. Do the same thing next time and you'll find a different result.:thumb:

SDAR
04-08-2013, 07:05 PM
I wouldn't cut on the bias unless you've inadvertantly overcooked your flat and it's too mushy.

Cutting on the bias lengthens the fibers in the slice making the slice more "chewy".

Your appearance scores MAY go up, but your tenderness will likely suffer.

Since tenderness is weighted more than appearance, you'd be doing yourself a disservice.

I'd score that box a "9" on appearance. Whoever scored it lower than an 8 is being a ridiculous, hard-ass, nit-picker - in my opinion, of course.

You have a beautiful sheen, your bark is crusty and delicious-looking, your slices are full length of the box and fill it excellently, your burnt ends are fine - they neither add nor detract from appearance, so keep them if they're REALLY good, but if they're just "ok" flavor and tenderness-wise, ditch them.

I've found that adding burnt ends hurts scores more often than it helps.

Not the grain bias, the thickness bias.

Smokedelic
04-08-2013, 07:11 PM
Thanks!!, I got 3-6's, 2-7's and an 8 with that box in Stillwater OK this last weekend.
Oh....Stillwater. Enough said.

We don't cook Stillwater anymore. Want to take a guess why?:-D

SDAR
04-08-2013, 07:19 PM
Oh....Stillwater. Enough said.

We don't cook Stillwater anymore. Want to take a guess why?:-D

Thanks Mike. You couldve gave a little advice in Pueblo last year though. :twitch:

Hawg Father of Seoul
04-08-2013, 08:44 PM
Wow! We almost went to that one. I would have been irate. You got mugged bro.

roksmith
04-09-2013, 06:16 AM
Not the grain bias, the thickness bias.

No matter which bias you cut it on, you will affect the tenderness. The fibers are 3 dimensional. Any variation from slicing perpendicular to the grain will tighten up the slices.

The only constructive criticism I have is the burnt ends (at least in our part of the country) are normally a little more cubed.. More of a cubed brisket really, but that seems to do well here.
I'd probably still give it a 9...8 would be the absolute lowest. Somebody must have peed in your judge's Wheaties that morning.

bignburlyman
04-09-2013, 07:23 AM
Got better scores in Bedford with product I almost had to turn in chopped.

The biggest deal to me is if KCBS wants to allow a "good time" cook like that then let us know. I don't blame the Elks. I feel like we got robbed of 1200 bucks from KCBS.

First, I thought this is a beautiful box of brisket, 9 from me. When I judge I never even look at the garnish, other than peripheral vision, or the box lid or sides for sauce. I am curious what exactly you mean regarding blaming the KCBS? Does your reference to the "good time" mean allowing the judges to drink? As I was not there I don't know if that is the case, but if the judges are drinking it is a major violation of the KCBS rules, and the reps should grow a set and address it. As a conscientious judge it bothers me when other judges give us all a black eye. I am sorry that you were the victim of those judges.

One thought----I wonder if it is possible that your box was jostled or shaken enough after turn in to mess up that great layout, and that was how the scores were given? Not to make an excuse for the judges but it is a possibility.

SDAR
04-09-2013, 09:15 AM
First, I thought this is a beautiful box of brisket, 9 from me. When I judge I never even look at the garnish, other than peripheral vision, or the box lid or sides for sauce. I am curious what exactly you mean regarding blaming the KCBS? Does your reference to the "good time" mean allowing the judges to drink? As I was not there I don't know if that is the case, but if the judges are drinking it is a major violation of the KCBS rules, and the reps should grow a set and address it. As a conscientious judge it bothers me when other judges give us all a black eye. I am sorry that you were the victim of those judges.

One thought----I wonder if it is possible that your box was jostled or shaken enough after turn in to mess up that great layout, and that was how the scores were given? Not to make an excuse for the judges but it is a possibility.

We were told after we turned in everything and we were waiting on awards that the Stillwater Elks contest has been KCBS for 25 years and it is one if not the only contest that they don't have to have CBJs. They let the Elks judge it. I asked the lady from the Elks club who told the judges were not CBJs how many if any CBJs were there. She said two. She said since they had been doing it for so long that KCBS allows it.

I know that is second hand or hearsay, but I would not have spent the money I spent to drive the motorhome from Amarillo over there and spent all I did had I known that it was such a poorly judged contest.

I don't want to sound too bitter. :blah: But, again...had I known.

I went and tried to look up on the KCBS event page how many CBJs were suppposedly there and none of the contests list them this year. What's up with that?

As for your question about how I know it wasn't dropped or shaken? You should've seen the scores on the others. 9 through 5 on just about everything with no comment cards whatsoever. I would think a rep or a table captain etc would give the courtesy of saying something with the RANGE of scores we had in every category.

Jorge
04-09-2013, 09:44 AM
We were told after we turned in everything and we were waiting on awards that the Stillwater Elks contest has been KCBS for 25 years and it is one if not the only contest that they don't have to have CBJs. They let the Elks judge it. I asked the lady from the Elks club who told the judges were not CBJs how many if any CBJs were there. She said two. She said since they had been doing it for so long that KCBS allows it.



Unless something has changed, KCBS does not require CBJs. It's entirely up to the organizer to select who sits in the judging tent.

Southern Home Boy
04-09-2013, 09:52 AM
Not the grain bias, the thickness bias.

Either way you lengthen the fibers; one way you lengthen them side to side, the other way you lengthen them top to bottom.

bbq.tom
04-09-2013, 10:07 AM
You definitely got robbed! As a CBJ, I'd definitely give this box a 9. Don't know what those judges were looking at or for, but I can't see that much wrong with this box. Minor stuff yes, but nothing major.

bignburlyman
04-09-2013, 10:11 AM
We were told after we turned in everything and we were waiting on awards that the Stillwater Elks contest has been KCBS for 25 years and it is one if not the only contest that they don't have to have CBJs. They let the Elks judge it. I asked the lady from the Elks club who told the judges were not CBJs how many if any CBJs were there. She said two. She said since they had been doing it for so long that KCBS allows it.

I know that is second hand or hearsay, but I would not have spent the money I spent to drive the motorhome from Amarillo over there and spent all I did had I known that it was such a poorly judged contest.

I don't want to sound too bitter. :blah: But, again...had I known.

I went and tried to look up on the KCBS event page how many CBJs were suppposedly there and none of the contests list them this year. What's up with that?

As for your question about how I know it wasn't dropped or shaken? You should've seen the scores on the others. 9 through 5 on just about everything with no comment cards whatsoever. I would think a rep or a table captain etc would give the courtesy of saying something with the RANGE of scores we had in every category.

Sorry, I didn't SAY it was shaken, just wondered if it might have been what happened, but if all the appearance scores were wonky probably not the issue. I know of one other contest (Dodge City KS) that has grandfathered in a sirloin category that counts for grand champion points. Also I have heard that in the past (not sure if still the case) since the contest was heavily sponsered by the Budweiser distributer that beer was available at the judges table. NOTE::: I have never judged this contest so my statement about the beer is heresay, and it was several years ago that I was told.

SDAR
04-09-2013, 10:30 AM
Bignburly...

Thank you for your input. I know you didn't say it was shaken. I'm just giving the opinion of why I don't think it was.

This box got a six too. The appearance scores overall were better, but not by much...

bbq.tom
04-09-2013, 10:49 AM
Now THAT'S JUST WRONG!!!

GREAT looking box of pork!!!

Another 9 on my scorecard!!!

bignburlyman
04-09-2013, 11:16 AM
That is another nice looking box, based on your experience I would say the judging left a lot to be desired. The Elks club may be a great organization, but the Stillwater Elks judges sound like a bunch of guys just getting a BBQ meal, and not caring about the other stuff. Again, I want to apologize to you as a decent BBQ judge (at least I hope I am) for what looks like innaccurate and inconsiderate judging.

Pig Headed
04-09-2013, 12:18 PM
Wow, that's all I can say as a cook and a CBJ. I would be pissed also. Two very nice looking boxes.

Shiz-Nit
04-09-2013, 12:52 PM
Brisket box - looks very good to me nice slices and good looking burnt ends looks yummy indeed!

Pork box - to me looks like a dang nice box of pork. Nice pink and pretty!

madmaxsmoke
04-09-2013, 02:44 PM
Here are the high scores for each category in Stillwater:
Chicken 164.0004
Ribs 170.2856
Pork. 174.8572
Brisket. 169.7142

Rather low from what I have seen

CBQ
04-09-2013, 04:02 PM
Thanks!!, I got 3-6's, 2-7's and an 8 with that box in Stillwater OK this last weekend.

Hey, ZBQ isn't an elite team, but we were 1st in the NEBS TOY brisket rankings last year, so we know our way around a brisket box. Unless the stuff sat and sat before the judges got it and you had fat congeal on the surface, I can't for a moment see how you got those appearance scores. Some of the "anal" things being pointed out by other posters might be the difference between 8s and 9s. It looks like at least a solid 8 box to me. I don't see anything approaching a 6 there. I would have expected 3-8s, 2-9s, and 1-7 from that.

Of course we were at one contest last year were a judge later told us they were at a table with mostly new judges, and the conversation went along the lines of "Hey, this is good! It says here on the chart that 7 is good, so I gave it a 7."

It was a small contest, 24 judges...so everyone had one entry go through that table. Gave us entertainment on the way home trying to guess which entries from which teams went through that table.

We would be thrilled to turn in that pork box.

Smokedelic
04-09-2013, 04:12 PM
Thanks Mike. You couldve gave a little advice in Pueblo last year though. :twitch:
LOL....I don't recall you asking for any. :biggrin1:

Hope to see you in Pueblo again this year. The first beer is on me.

djqualls
04-09-2013, 08:01 PM
wow that is really some bad scoring.


Don't Be Hatin'!:loco: This one was a 8 9 8 8 7 8.

Maybe it was because it had a "Happy Ending"!

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=581&pictureid=7217

djqualls
04-09-2013, 08:06 PM
Now my 11th Place pork Box was like this

Appearance 9 5 7 6 7 9
Taste 8 6 7 6 9 9
Tenderness 9 8 8 6 9 9

Go Figure!

MikeJ65
04-09-2013, 08:59 PM
Looking at that contest the past few years, the scores are very low. I don't necessarily have a problem with the standard being a bit different, but 5's and 9's together (especially on appearance) shows that not everyone was judging to the same standard.

Q-Dat
04-10-2013, 12:04 AM
Just out of curiosity what was your box number? Was it clearly written so that there was no chance for any confusion?

I only ask because those scores were so ridiculous for what you showed us, that it wouldn't shock me if there was a mixup.

QTEX
04-10-2013, 09:55 AM
Don't Be Hatin'!:loco: This one was a 8 9 8 8 7 8.

Maybe it was because it had a "Happy Ending"!

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=581&pictureid=7217

Very nice box along with original posters, just curious on yours if its the camera or lighting?, why does the meat look sorta marroon or purple?

djqualls
04-10-2013, 12:20 PM
Its the camera flash.

This brisket was 1st at Stillwater. Its by far not my best looking box. Honestly I think it was scored fairly accurate on appearance. but then again, a 169.7142 won the category. I think they start at 6 and go up or down from there. I knew going in what the scoring was going to be like and just ran with it without a lot of overthinking. I think Stillwater judges like they do at the Royal Open. Its all in the table you hit.

SDAR
04-10-2013, 01:03 PM
Its the camera flash.

This brisket was 1st at Stillwater. Its by far not my best looking box. Honestly I think it was scored fairly accurate on appearance. but then again, a 169.7142 won the category. I think they start at 6 and go up or down from there. I knew going in what the scoring was going to be like and just ran with it without a lot of overthinking. I think Stillwater judges like they do at the Royal Open. Its all in the table you hit.

Congratulations on your brisket. Your box looks great to me. I certainly did not mean to take away from those that won. We just have never had scores like we did in Stillwater and were really shocked.

djqualls
04-10-2013, 08:14 PM
Congratulations on your brisket. Your box looks great to me. I certainly did not mean to take away from those that won. We just have never had scores like we did in Stillwater and were really shocked.

I completely understand you. I didn't take it that way. After getting hammered there last year, (its only 40 miles from home) we went into it with no expectations. We treated it as a contest and to keep tuning. We have been in the middle of the pack so far this year. This was comp #5 for 2013.

They raise a lot of money for the hospice and I'm glad to be the background to help draw the public. That's how I take this contest.

bignburlyman
04-24-2013, 06:58 AM
Sorry, I didn't SAY it was shaken, just wondered if it might have been what happened, but if all the appearance scores were wonky probably not the issue. I know of one other contest (Dodge City KS) that has grandfathered in a sirloin category that counts for grand champion points. Also I have heard that in the past (not sure if still the case) since the contest was heavily sponsered by the Budweiser distributer that beer was available at the judges table. NOTE::: I have never judged this contest so my statement about the beer is heresay, and it was several years ago that I was told.

I wanted to update this comment with new information. I judged recently with the judge coordinator for the Dodge City contest and we talked about this issue. He acknowledged that in the past beer was available before and after each category, but not at the judge table. Due to complaints about 3 years ago, they changed judge selection to allow more CBJ's as opposed to celebrity judges and banished beer consumption to after judging completed.