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View Full Version : Opinions On This Pork Presentation STYLE Wanted


Q-Dat
03-25-2013, 07:55 PM
Ok first off, I know that the pork is oversauced and there are spots that need to be cleaned up. The cleanup was addressed before turn in.

What you see before you is two whole money muscles cut into 3 large chunks each.

I'd like to hear your thoughts of potential pros and cons here. Again, not asking for a score on this particular idea. Just some thoughts from judges or anyone else on the concept.

Thanks in advance.

big brother smoke
03-25-2013, 08:20 PM
Too big!

landarc
03-25-2013, 08:31 PM
In theory, if the pork is cooked well, then it should be fine.

In practice, I think it looks a little sloppy. Also, I believe there will be some judges that will not like that there is just the 6 slices, some will feel they did not get the right meat.

MattG
03-25-2013, 08:34 PM
Just my 2cents. Cut too thick, tighten up your green, clean up the box. Really good looking color though.

Smoke'n Ice
03-25-2013, 09:06 PM
This particular presentation looks heavy in that the judge will have to pick up a large chunk of meat and bite a piece off, cave man style as I don't believe it will all go in at once. He'll also have a large amount of sauce to clean off his hands, face, lips and facial hair ( if he has any).

Sliced, pulled and chunks tend to be the better choice. It gives the judge a choice, even though he will take all three. In theory, he will taste the one that is his preference and cooler the rest. That is why most will insure that there is enough of all three for every judge to get a sample. Good looking money muscle by the way, wish I could find that size on my butts.

Opionions are like AHs, everyone has one and this is just mine.

Contracted Cookers
03-25-2013, 09:16 PM
that would be a good money muscle presentation .too big of slices box looks empty . you have been on this forum long enough to know that box will not work in comp

Uncle Buds BBQ
03-25-2013, 09:25 PM
It is not excellent for me.

Like the color and shine but not the size.

And never...ever...put just 6 pieces in a box (except for those dang thighs where you can't get 7 to look just right) :mrgreen:

BBQchef33
03-25-2013, 09:26 PM
way to thick, not arranged well, needs to be sliced more evenly and arranged tighter.

6, maybe 7 in appearance.

indianagriller
03-25-2013, 09:34 PM
so are you guys saying $M only in a box is not a good idea? Do you think Judges would score down if there was no pulled or chunks? i think the box looks good, very full, maybe tighten the muscle back up so the green isnt peeking through.
:confused:

Hawg Father of Seoul
03-25-2013, 09:35 PM
Ok, now what did it score?

BBQchef33
03-25-2013, 09:40 PM
so are you guys saying $M only in a box is not a good idea?
:confused:

ive put 2 sliced $M in a box, sliced into medallions, which yielded 10 nice slices, cut clean, even and assembled nicely, and did very well. It wasnt by choice..the rest of the butt really sucked.

ive seen boxes with ONLY pulled $M also.. scored as a pile of pulled pork..

hogzillas
03-25-2013, 09:42 PM
I think for now that it's just "too out of the norm" for most judges to score well in appearance but you might hit a contest table that likes the out of the norm/artistic aspects of it. I would say you need to slice smaller also as there's no rule against putting more than 6 slices. IMO & even though it's not part of the score, parsely might be a better green to go with than the lettuce you have to frame it.

Uncle Buds BBQ
03-25-2013, 09:51 PM
so are you guys saying $M only in a box is not a good idea? Do you think Judges would score down if there was no pulled or chunks? i think the box looks good, very full, maybe tighten the muscle back up so the green isnt peeking through.
:confused:
No.

I always score "what is presented". Last year I can think of a couple times where just mm was in the box. Both times it scored low on appearance because it was just one mm that didn't fill the box and although it was sliced it looked like a turd just sitting there (sorry...but that what we called it after scoring) Now for taste it was EXCELLENT.

Q-Dat
03-25-2013, 09:55 PM
Ok, now what did it score?

Well it finished 44th out of 50 but appearance scores were not to blame this time. Four 9's, one 8, and one 7. Taste scores killed me on this one, and I know the culprit.

billm
03-25-2013, 10:02 PM
I score whats in the box ...not what could have been in the box. If the pieces tastes good and are moist thats all that should matter but.... from an appearance standpoint the box just doesnt look as good to me with 6 large pieces laying in it vs some nice fanned out slices

CivilWarBBQ
03-25-2013, 11:49 PM
I say the hell with "the norm"!

If you've got the guts, send it into the judging tent and see how it's received. Innovation always involves risk. Do you think Myron worried about conforming to "the norm" when he invented cupcake chicken? As a judge I love to see an entry that presses the envelope. As a cook I have more respect for the guy that writes his own story rather than reading from somebody else's script.

Smokin Hoggz
03-26-2013, 07:39 AM
I like the color, I think it looks very moist, tender and appetizing and that I would like to eat it. Presentation wise, it could be neatened up a little, not look so thrown in there, I would probably give it a 7 or 8 in appearance......Remember judges, judge as presented/what's in the box and not what you expect/want to see in the box!!!

boogiesnap
03-26-2013, 07:52 AM
those are some nice looking MM's.

what made you do that to them?

Lake Dogs
03-26-2013, 07:52 AM
+1 above. I didnt think it was necessarily oversauced; looked pretty good to me. It didnt, however, set my "OH MY GOSH I JUST HAVE TO EAT THAT RIGHT NOW" lights aglow. I probably would've given it an 8... I dont know what would've gotten the 9. Perhaps more in the box would've helped. I'm probably a little pre-disposed personally to not care for sliced, so perhaps mixing in some pulled in there would've helped; I dont know. I just know it didnt scream "HIT ME" like some others do; not to me personally. I like the novel/different approach though. It in itself didnt say "DONT EAT ME".

Curious, how did tenderness score for 'ya?

I'm not sure that $M does everyone the favors they think it does. For some it's very helpful, but for others there's the "turd" factor, and frankly for those I've not been very kind on appearance score, because frankly I dont find turds appetizing. Then often they're just downright mushy; frankly would've probably been better as part of the pulled meat presented if used at all...

NazBQ
03-26-2013, 10:34 AM
I think the meat looks tasty. But, I always like seeing (and tasting) some pulled in addition to the $M.

Q-Dat
03-26-2013, 10:57 AM
those are some nice looking MM's.

what made you do that to them?

I had a few reasons.

Heat and moisture retention. I figured bigger pieces would hold both longer.

I wanted to see how a chicken thigh sized chunk of pork would do. I didn't see them having to take a bite out of it as a potential problem. Judges are used to only gettinf little slices of what is widely considered the best part of the shoulder. I wanted to give them a bigger juicier piece.

boogiesnap
03-26-2013, 11:09 AM
those are good reasons.

i tried something similar with big large cuts and chunks. i really don't think the judges like it for some reason.

77573

Hawg Father of Seoul
03-26-2013, 11:17 AM
I had a few reasons.

Heat and moisture retention. I figured bigger pieces would hold both longer.

I wanted to see how a chicken thigh sized chunk of pork would do. I didn't see them having to take a bite out of it as a potential problem. Judges are used to only gettinf little slices of what is widely considered the best part of the shoulder. I wanted to give them a bigger juicier piece.

Bet you $20 some one said something about "how you must have messed up the cook".

You can also think about it like this, you gave a large hunk of meat to some one who has already satisfied any acute hunger on chicken and ribs. If I was going to put in a mammoth piece of anything... It would be breast meat.

Jacked UP BBQ
03-26-2013, 11:32 AM
That is almost exactly what we turn in and we do just fine in pork. We go against the norm as much as possible and it pays off more then not. I think you are on the right track to awesomeness! As far as sauce goes, you can never have enough! haha

billm
03-26-2013, 11:32 AM
I say the hell with "the norm"!

If you've got the guts, send it into the judging tent and see how it's received. Innovation always involves risk. Do you think Myron worried about conforming to "the norm" when he invented cupcake chicken? As a judge I love to see an entry that presses the envelope. As a cook I have more respect for the guy that writes his own story rather than reading from somebody else's script.
I agree 100 % but unfortunately I dont think most judges think like that.

billm
03-26-2013, 11:34 AM
those are good reasons.

i tried something similar with big large cuts and chunks. i really don't think the judges like it for some reason.

77573
this looks outstanding to me

Jaskew82
03-26-2013, 01:22 PM
I like the originality in this box. That being said, the slices are a bit thick and not well organized. Also, the sloppy sauce (on box) and greens needs to be cleaned up. If the meat was cooked just right, it would be very interesting to pull apart and eat but i am not sure how a judge would go for this.

Jaskew82
03-26-2013, 01:43 PM
those are good reasons.

i tried something similar with big large cuts and chunks. i really don't think the judges like it for some reason.

77573


Dylan,
I used a similar approach in Medford and Chesapeake and scored well. I think its just a matter of the table. Medford took 1st with this...

SlugBug
03-26-2013, 03:36 PM
The meat looks good, but just not as pretty as it could be with somewhat thinner slices and a nicer arrangement. Then again, I don't do any better with pork appearance scores.

Stoke&Smoke
03-26-2013, 03:58 PM
The meat looks tasty, but the box in general looks kind of sloppy and haphazard.

Bentley
03-26-2013, 04:34 PM
...too big of slices box looks empty...

...Like the color and shine but not the size.

And never...ever...put just 6 pieces in a box (except for those dang thighs where you can't get 7 to look just right) :mrgreen:

way to thick...


...That being said, the slices are a bit thick...

...just not as pretty as it could be with somewhat thinner slices...

After 10 years of being a CBJ and the start of year 2 as a MCBJ, I try when I see things like this to recall the KCBS judging guidelines.


"Pork Shoulder or Boston Butt should be very tender, it should pull apart with very little effort, be moist and have good texture. Sliced pork is an acceptable entry. Pulled or chopped meat is also a suiteable pork entry. With these types of entry checking for proper cooking is important. Pork can easily be over cooked to achive maximum tenderness, which in turn makes the final product mushy. Mushy meat disolves in your mouth with very little effort when chewing. Often the crusty, dark outer surface or bark is included in the presentation. This is an acceptable part of the entry".

I must have missed the part about size and that you need more then 6 pieces in the box...

If we can't clear our bias's about whether the box is full or the piece is the wrong size, the team entering gets a raw deal.

I see no cons to your presentation, but as you can see by most of the comments, I am not in the norm!

Kudos to those that commented you judge what is presented...Not what you think it should be.

Thanks for the post...always good for judges to keep thinking!

big brother smoke
03-26-2013, 05:12 PM
Bent,

Are we talking reality or they way it should be? We are not helping the OP, if we base our comments on what it should be. I think the OP will have a difficult time consistently scoring good with that presentation.

Q-Dat
03-26-2013, 06:05 PM
Ok I really do appreciate all of the replies, but I want to remind everyone like I said in the first post. This is not a "rate this box" thread. This picture was taken at a bad angle, from the wrong side and before cleanup and final touches were done. Trust me when I say the final product did not look "thrown in".

In the title I put the word STYLE in all caps because that is what I intended to get feedback on, and quite a few of you have. For that I am grateful.

Oddly enough, appearance is not my biggest concern. I scored well enough with that. Its tenderness. Assuming that the $M is perfectly cooked, do you believe that the tenderness scores will reflect it with larger pieces?

fnbish
03-26-2013, 06:36 PM
Ok I really do appreciate all of the replies, but I want to remind everyone like I said in the first post. This is not a "rate this box" thread. This picture was taken at a bad angle, from the wrong side and before cleanup and final touches were done. Trust me when I say the final product did not look "thrown in".

In the title I put the word STYLE in all caps because that is what I intended to get feedback on, and quite a few of you have. For that I am grateful.

Oddly enough, appearance is not my biggest concern. I scored well enough with that. Its tenderness. Assuming that the $M is perfectly cooked, do you believe that the tenderness scores will reflect it with larger pieces?

Yeah but you might admit (or not) that "Opinions On This Pork Presentation STYLE Wanted" and "rate this box" are similar ideas. Isn't the "style" of a box judged when judges do their thing?? You say you cleaned it up after the picture was take, but that isn't the picture you put here. The style in the picture looks like a "thrown in" style. Do you want the judges to judge the idea of the style after they imagine you cleaning up the box?

As a cook I would be concerned with one 7 and one 8 on the box as presented in this picture and I would be even more concerned with one 7 and one 8 if those were scores after it got cleaned up.

Q-Dat
03-26-2013, 06:58 PM
Yeah but you might admit (or not) that "Opinions On This Pork Presentation STYLE Wanted" and "rate this box" are similar ideas. Isn't the "style" of a box judged when judges do their thing?? You say you cleaned it up after the picture was take, but that isn't the picture you put here. The style in the picture looks like a "thrown in" style. Do you want the judges to judge the idea of the style after they imagine you cleaning up the box.

I do see your point, but that was the only picture that I was able to get, and someone else took it. The only reason I even posted the picture, is because I didn't want to have to describe the layout, and have people not quite get the idea.

Again, I am wanting opinions of the concept good or bad.

boogiesnap
03-26-2013, 07:18 PM
Dylan,
I used a similar approach in Medford and Chesapeake and scored well. I think its just a matter of the table. Medford took 1st with this...

thanks justin, i'm pretty familoiar with that presentation as well. :twisted:

q-dat, i think having to chomp off a bite of a large piece of pork would be offputting for the category. taste and appearance, if scored fairly may not suffer, but tenderness/texture, very well may. as well as an overall malais.

landarc
03-26-2013, 07:20 PM
so what really failed was your brand new secret injection?

If it tastes good and is tender, then you should have a chance. If you miss on taste and tenderness, then you don't have a chance. You just cannot account for the odd judge that pre-judges.

fnbish
03-26-2013, 07:43 PM
I do see your point, but that was the only picture that I was able to get, and someone else took it. The only reason I even posted the picture, is because I didn't want to have to describe the layout, and have people not quite get the idea.

Again, I am wanting opinions of the concept good or bad.

I think you can get away with only money muscle, but not as well with 6 big chunks like that. Even assuming a cleaner and tighter box those 6 big chunks don't fill up the space. I submitted 2 money muscles sliced and fanned down either side with some chunks in the middle that scored really well, but it really filled up the box. It was the first time and only so far that both were equal.

Q-Dat
03-26-2013, 07:48 PM
so what really failed was your brand new secret injection?

Haha actually it was a different one. I wish I'd had the guts to try the other one.

Bentley
03-27-2013, 11:49 AM
Bent,

Are we talking reality or they way it should be?


I would hope with threads like this, we can get judges to think and not use their own guidelines and get to..."the way it should be."

Uncle Buds BBQ
03-27-2013, 12:23 PM
"Pork Shoulder or Boston Butt should be very tender, it should pull apart with very little effort, be moist and have good texture. Sliced pork is an acceptable entry. Pulled or chopped meat is also a suiteable pork entry. With these types of entry checking for proper cooking is important. Pork can easily be over cooked to achive maximum tenderness, which in turn makes the final product mushy. Mushy meat disolves in your mouth with very little effort when chewing. Often the crusty, dark outer surface or bark is included in the presentation. This is an acceptable part of the entry".

And where does this paragraph address presentation (other than the 2nd to last line) which is what the OP was asking about and many responded to?

If I think the box doesn't look full enough with 6 pieces and not excellent then I don't score it a 9. Enough said.

Q-Dat
03-27-2013, 12:53 PM
Ok now I have another question for the judges in the crowd.

Some have suggested that there isn't enough meat in the box. I just went back and looked at the pic again. I say exactly, but I would guesstimate that about 75-80% of the bed of lettuce is covered by the meat. How much more do I need? If I put much more I might as well leave out the lettce and do an FBA style box.

CBQ
03-27-2013, 01:46 PM
As Bentley said, judges should judge on what is presented. Sadly, though, some won't.

I like the concept, but I would like to see the slices more uniform. (Maybe it's just how they were placed?)

The thing is, though, I think you are going to get a "love it or hate it" response. Some judges will like your innovative presentation, and reward you if the taste and tenderness follow suit. Others will punish you for going outside of the box. Even if most get it, it just takes 2 to ruin your day. With the right flavor profile, I would predict a lot of "10" finishes. Top 10 and bottom 10. You won't be in the middle of the pack, people will love it or hate it.

Hawg Father of Seoul
03-27-2013, 02:03 PM
Brother, I love pork butt. To a fault. If you put two MM in there either place them closer together or fill the void between them. By cutting them in three pieces.... you had 67% of your judges eating a "taper". even 4 pieces would have been better.

Lots of people think MM looks like sh!! and over half of your judges are eating the part that still looks like the end of a deuce. Like I said, I love pork, but that stuff would have grown in my mouth until I started coughing.

Bentley
03-27-2013, 05:54 PM
If I think the box doesn't look full enough with 6 pieces and not excellent then I don't score it a 9. Enough said.


If the box not being full enough is one of your criteria, understood. But could you point me to the rule or guideline that states the box has to "look full" so I can refresh my knowledge? I must have missed it in my 1st 10 years of judging.

Uncle Buds BBQ
03-27-2013, 06:21 PM
If the box not being full enough is one of your criteria, understood. But could you point me to the rule or guideline that states the box has to "look full" so I can refresh my knowledge? I must have missed it in my 1st 10 years of judging.

Sorry you missed that. It's explained right here..
AT&T TV Commercial - It's Not Complicated "More" - YouTube

fnbish
03-27-2013, 06:38 PM
If the box not being full enough is one of your criteria, understood. But could you point me to the rule or guideline that states the box has to "look full" so I can refresh my knowledge? I must have missed it in my 1st 10 years of judging.

It doesn't state it either way of course, but it is can be harder to make a box look appealing with less in there.

Here is a good comparison. All boxes off BBQ Critic. Each have things that aren't perfect, but the one with less just doesn't stand out.

So this........
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/9473826_zpsc264f090.jpg

vs this...............
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/PorkBox_zps104d9a87.png

or vs this..........
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/7735625_orig_zps725ccc5a.jpg

Bentley
03-27-2013, 07:22 PM
Sorry you missed that. It's explained right here..



Much like I thought, you cant explaine it, so try and deflect...

Bentley
03-27-2013, 07:46 PM
Each have things that aren't perfect, but the one with less just doesn't stand out.


I guess it does not stand out to you, I personally like the 1st box...But again, untill we as judges can remove the bias and use the proper guidelines, the team that does not have the "Correct" look in that judges mind is screwed!

boogiesnap
03-27-2013, 07:54 PM
I guess it does not stand out to you, I personally like the 1st box...But again, untill we as judges can remove the bias and use the proper guidelines, the team that does not have the "Correct" look in that judges mind is screwed!

really? the first box? c'mon man...there's principle and then there's practical.

Bentley
03-27-2013, 08:09 PM
really? the first box? c'mon man...there's principle and then there's practical.


We disagree...To use others "criteria", the other two box are way to full and overcrowded for me...Maybe I will just start judging down for that, as it seems by some to be an acceptable reason!

Candy Sue
03-27-2013, 08:10 PM
I think those Hammond judges just didn't get it last weekend! I like your presentation and I've taken 1st in pork with 9 chunks in the box (no MM slices either). Wish I could figure out how to post my pork pic -- I was 38/50 at Hammond. I thought pork was my best, but judges didn't. My chicken score was a gift though, I took a bite and had to spit...

I have a theory that too many choices in the box could hurt scores.

boogiesnap
03-27-2013, 08:21 PM
We disagree...To use others "criteria", the other two box are way to full and overcrowded for me...Maybe I will just start judging down for that, as it seems by some to be an acceptable reason!

well, let's try to...agree

box 1, meat looks small(poorly chosen), dry, overcooked, and underseasoned.
6

box 2, looks pretty good, MM on left dry, meat right of it oversauced.
7-8

box 3, meat look juicy, good seasoning, well selected, well cut, nicely presented, but a bit oversauced.
8-9

Q-Dat's pork, meat looks very good, juicy, well selected, nicely cooked, perfectly sauced and seasoned.
8-9

Bentley
03-27-2013, 08:22 PM
I have a theory that too many choices in the box could hurt scores.


I am beginning to subscibe to that theroy!

You should have seen Kristin's Chicken entry at Santa Anita last week! can't imagine how it would score on a site like this!

Uncle Buds BBQ
03-27-2013, 08:27 PM
Much like I thought, you cant explaine it, so try and deflect...
:bounce:

fnbish
03-27-2013, 08:36 PM
I guess it does not stand out to you, I personally like the 1st box...But again, untill we as judges can remove the bias and use the proper guidelines, the team that does not have the "Correct" look in that judges mind is screwed!

You can stand by your guns, I get it :wink:. I don't extremely dislike the first box, but it doesn't look as good to me and in the really real world it doesn't look as good to most judges. Neither is right or wrong, but it is best to play the percentages of what pleases the most people/judges. I've gotten that advice from many great teams.

Neither judge is right or wrong for saying a box being full or not full looks more appealing. There are no rules for this, but for whatever reason most judges seem to naturally like (without being pushed that way) more full boxes. Can someone make a beautiful straight 9's half filled box? Yes. But seems if you want higher scores consistently the more meat the merrier.

So to your question earlier of......"But could you point me to the rule or guideline that states the box has to "look full" so I can refresh my knowledge? I must have missed it in my 1st 10 years of judging."........I cannot point to that, but after 10yrs I could openly admit what the reality is to better help a person/team.

hogzillas
03-27-2013, 08:46 PM
I think those Hammond judges just didn't get it last weekend! I like your presentation and I've taken 1st in pork with 9 chunks in the box (no MM slices either). Wish I could figure out how to post my pork pic -- I was 38/50 at Hammond. I thought pork was my best, but judges didn't. My chicken score was a gift though, I took a bite and had to spit...

I have a theory that too many choices in the box could hurt scores.

To me it's kinda an avg it out thing when someone does multiple things that MAY bring score down. You may have something that didn't come out well or doesn't last long (dries out or looks bad after time) vs the other parts of your box so scores were brought down. You may plan on a combo box but if something doesn't come out right, don't add it. The old addage of don't put anything in your box that will harm you score.

I personally like a combo box as it shows the cook is capable of more than the norm so puts me in a positive frame of mind for their entry/score but it can also bring your score down. I also agree w/ what was said above on out of the norm/artistically done boxes , it's a refreshing change. Just because someone does cupcake chicken doesn't mean everyone should.

Bentley
03-27-2013, 09:03 PM
Neither judge is right or wrong for saying a box being full or not full looks more appealing. There are no rules for this...

16) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions
of meat in an approved container. Chicken, pork and
brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced
as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6)
judges. Ribs shall be turned in bone-in. Judges may not cut,
slice, or shake apart to separate pieces. If there is not
enough meat for each judge to sample, the shorted
judge(s) will score a one (1) on all criteria, and the judges
having samples will change the Appearance score to one(1).

I thought there were...How silly of me to think this way!

fnbish
03-27-2013, 09:21 PM
Neither judge is right or wrong for saying a box being full or not full looks more appealing. There are no rules for this...

16) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions
of meat in an approved container. Chicken, pork and
brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced
as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6)
judges. Ribs shall be turned in bone-in. Judges may not cut,
slice, or shake apart to separate pieces. If there is not
enough meat for each judge to sample, the shorted
judge(s) will score a one (1) on all criteria, and the judges
having samples will change the Appearance score to one(1).

I thought there were...How silly of me to think this way!

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/ILoveThisThread_zps30f371fe.jpg

So obviously you used the internet to look up these rules. Good for you :clap:. I should have been more clear. My statement was referencing the OP box and the box I posted that was small in portion size. Yes there has to be 6 pieces and yes there is a rule for that. What else am I missing?? Shall we continue this dance of how can you now disprove what I said by picking apart any tiny missing item and blowing it up into a big "I showed you"? It is the reason I love all online forums of any nature. They all have these threads.

Bentley
03-27-2013, 09:29 PM
JaJaJa...Don't get your panties in a bind...I will just judge my way, and hope my boxes never hit your table!

And speaking of the internet and forums...I have never had to use an alias as my Handle, my name has always been just fine!

fnbish
03-27-2013, 09:36 PM
JaJaJa...Don't get your panties in a bind...I will just judge my way, and hope my boxes never hit your table!

And speaking of the internet and forums...I have never had to use an alias as my Handle, my name has always been just fine!

Oooo the first on the draw with the "don't get your panties in a bind". Always a good one to pull from the "thread argument 101 holster". It is very tough to come back from for the other person as it makes me seem like I have in fact gotten stirred up :eusa_clap. Glad to know your name has always been there. Hope it makes you feel good. My name is in my signature. Are you saying yours is better because it is your actual handle and mine is a few inches away in the signature? It is pretty uncommon for people to use aliases as handles. I think I'm the only one here doing that. If you want to know who I am you can check out my facebook page.

Q-Dat
03-27-2013, 09:59 PM
Am I the only one that thinks that one box looks like two rows of sliced MM with a heap of cat food in between?

Edit: no offense intended

fnbish
03-27-2013, 10:02 PM
Am I the only one that thinks that one box looks like two rows of sliced MM with a heap of cat food in between?

Not until you pointed it out and now that is all I see :mrgreen:.

NS Mike D
03-27-2013, 10:07 PM
You can stand by your guns, I get it :wink:. I don't extremely dislike the first box, but it doesn't look as good to me and in the really real world it doesn't look as good to most judges. Neither is right or wrong, but it is best to play the percentages of what pleases the most people/judges. I've gotten that advice from many great teams.

Neither judge is right or wrong for saying a box being full or not full looks more appealing. There are no rules for this, but for whatever reason most judges seem to naturally like (without being pushed that way) more full boxes. Can someone make a beautiful straight 9's half filled box? Yes. But seems if you want higher scores consistently the more meat the merrier.

So to your question earlier of......"But could you point me to the rule or guideline that states the box has to "look full" so I can refresh my knowledge? I must have missed it in my 1st 10 years of judging."........I cannot point to that, but after 10yrs I could openly admit what the reality is to better help a person/team.


an empty box tends to make it look like a large salad. We humans, as a general rule, like symmetry and a full neat box can be make to look symmetrical easier than an empty box. An empty box will make the imperfections in the shape of the meat stand out more, while a neatly packed box will hide them.


There is no rule that states that you must use garnish, but we do since garnish makes a meal look more appealing. It makes it look neater and softens the back ground, making it easier on our eyes.


my two cents.

Q-Dat
03-27-2013, 11:30 PM
Does this really look that empty?

Rookie'48
03-28-2013, 12:43 AM
I have a theory that too many choices in the box could hurt scores.


Yes it could happen that way! If your chunks are spot on and the slices are just perfect why would you put that soggy, mushy, over-cooked pulled pork in the box?

The box should be judged as a whole. I'm going to judge what's in the box, I'm not going to judge what is not in the box. If you don't put pulled pork in the box I'm not allowed to ask why and I'm not allowed to grade down for it not being there.

If you turn in skinless chicken I'm not supposed to think that you screwed up the skin and had to leave it off, I'm supposed to judge it as presented by the cook.

I'm not to judge as to my own personal likes or dislikes, but to the standards set forth by KCBS.

If it's in the box then I'm going to judge the box as presented. If it's not up to snuff - leave it out :wink:.

roksmith
03-28-2013, 06:02 AM
I had to go back to the original post to see what the OP was asking for when he posted after reading the thread.

I can see a couple downsides to this presentation. 4 of the judges are going to get a piece where they have no choice but to bite thru the bark to get to the meat. Tenderness score would probably suffer because of that. The only reason I would consider cutting thicker chunks would be to compensate for slightly over cooked pork.
Still would allow the bite to be takes without having to go thru the bark to get to it. I like bark myself, but not all judges will appreciate it.

The overall look does not appeal to me. I to see more of the side profile of slices.. just looks better to me. I like to see the juicy insides, not the crispy exterior.

Lastly..I'll never understand folks who post pictures asking for comments then say that this, that, or the other thing were corrected prior to turn in. Why take a picture of an unfinished box for comments? We don't always take pictures, but when we do, it's the last thing we do before we close the box so that we know what we took a picture of is as close to what the judges see as it could be.

Bentley
03-28-2013, 11:06 AM
If you turn in skinless chicken I'm not supposed to think that you screwed up the skin and had to leave it off, I'm supposed to judge it as presented by the cook.

I'm not to judge as to my own personal likes or dislikes, but to the standards set forth by KCBS.

If it's in the box then I'm going to judge the box as presented. If it's not up to snuff - leave it out :wink:.


Thank You!

Bentley
03-28-2013, 11:11 AM
Does this really look that empty?

No.

I can see a couple downsides to this presentation. 4 of the judges are going to get a piece where they have no choice but to bite thru the bark to get to the meat.

Good point, I guess that could be a Con, but could be handled by cutting off the outer portion of those 2 pieces.

Q-Dat
03-28-2013, 12:08 PM
Lastly..I'll never understand folks who post pictures asking for comments then say that this, that, or the other thing were corrected prior to turn in. Why take a picture of an unfinished box for comments? We don't always take pictures, but when we do, it's the last thing we do before we close the box so that we know what we took a picture of is as close to what the judges see as it could be.

I understand what you are saying, but I had someone else taking the pictures of the boxes. This person did not understand the point of taking the pictures to begin with, and did not get it from the correct side or angle, and took it before they were supposed to. At the time I had no intentions of posting a picture of this box for review here. What I was asking for opinions on was the concept of the presentation. I wanted to get thoughts not so much on how it DID look, but as how it COULD look. That is why I used the word style in the title.

I knew that you all might hace to use your imaginations a little bit. The picture was merely there to keep you from having to imagine it from scratch.

roksmith
03-28-2013, 12:28 PM
makes sense

Candy Sue
03-28-2013, 01:11 PM
...

I can see a couple downsides to this presentation. 4 of the judges are going to get a piece where they have no choice but to bite thru the bark to get to the meat. Tenderness score would probably suffer because of that. The only reason I would consider cutting thicker chunks would be to compensate for slightly over cooked pork.
Still would allow the bite to be takes without having to go thru the bark to get to it. I like bark myself, but not all judges will appreciate it.



I don't turn in pork without bark! A judge is going to get bark in any bite out of my box. Speaking of bark...I was amazed down in Texas that so many of the cooks so precisely peeled the bark off -- even off the money muscle. WHY??? That's where the flavor is! Plus, you talk about looking strange...think about peeled money muscle slices.

Q-Dat
03-28-2013, 01:52 PM
I am right there with ya Ms Candy!!! How did we ever get so many people judging that either think that a dark colored bark means that its burnt or that just don't even like bark period!? Did these people grow up eating crock pot BBQ?

I think there should be a frontpage article in the Bullsheet dedicated to educating people that bark and REAL BBQ go hand in hand, because apparently its not common knowledge.

fnbish
03-28-2013, 04:21 PM
I am right there with ya Ms Candy!!! How did we ever get so many people judging that either think that a dark colored bark means that its burnt or that just don't even like bark period!? Did these people grow up eating crock pot BBQ?

I think there should be a frontpage article in the Bullsheet dedicated to educating people that bark and REAL BBQ go hand in hand, because apparently its not common knowledge.

I know that sometimes the bark pieces/chunks can have a tendency to not be as tender as some of the more internal chunks of meat. It isn't always the case, but I normally err on the side of caution if the the bark pieces don't have the right feel. So I am more selective with the bark and only put in as many as I need. As for the MM I haven't had the tenderness issue so there is always bark on that.

ckelly
03-28-2013, 05:41 PM
Presentation is "loose"

I'd not cut at an angle but take the ends off and present 6 thick straight cut slices than arrange diagnoally across the box (corner to corner) and chunk up the ends.

boogiesnap
03-28-2013, 08:18 PM
I understand what you are saying, but I had someone else taking the pictures of the boxes. This person did not understand the point of taking the pictures to begin with, and did not get it from the correct side or angle, and took it before they were supposed to. At the time I had no intentions of posting a picture of this box for review here. What I was asking for opinions on was the concept of the presentation. I wanted to get thoughts not so much on how it DID look, but as how it COULD look. That is why I used the word style in the title.

I knew that you all might hace to use your imaginations a little bit. The picture was merely there to keep you from having to imagine it from scratch.

i'm just poking at you here, but, why then was the box being held out, steady, as a pic was taken if it wasn't a pic intended to be taken?

Q-Dat
03-28-2013, 09:19 PM
i'm just poking at you here, but, why then was the box being held out, steady, as a pic was taken if it wasn't a pic intended to be taken?

Ya know that feeling of roughly 10,000 thoughts running through your head around turn in time?

Well in mid process, I decided that thinking about the picture wasn't one that I needed :tongue:

Southern Home Boy
03-29-2013, 12:57 PM
For what it's worth, this is my "style" of turn in. This isn't a great example as the loading is slightly uneven - still took 6th place though - but it's a good representation of how I usually pack my turn ins.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/southernhomeboy/2011%20competitions/Cookoffkickoff2011037.jpg

One MM sliced in at least six slices and then chunks pulled from "Mr. Brown" (the dark meat in the curvature of the shoulder blade). Finishing sauce brushed on each slice of the MM individually and the chunks tossed in a combo of drippings and finishing sauce.

I seldom score outside of the top ten and my appearance scores are usually 8s and 9s.