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smokincracker
01-30-2006, 04:07 PM
The judging was real inconsistent at this last contest in Lakeland.
Example:
My Brisket
989 / 655 / 868 / 866 / 999 / 666
For every turn-in box I have 6s and 9s for each sub-category itís a damn conspiracy.
I have been doing this long enough now to know this sucks also since my boxes were real good.
The Brisket above was spectacular by the way!!

In comparison my score sheets from FBA contests are very consistent.
I spoke to a seasoned FBA judge and cook that took the KCBS judging class the night before and his comments to me painted a very bleak picture about what to expect. He was right!
I would love to see some more consistent judging at the next KCBS contest.
Sorry for the bi#@chin
Just pisses me off.

Solidkick
01-30-2006, 04:22 PM
I feel your pain brother.....saw similar scoring at Bass Pro last year.....I took it personal....took me almost 6 weeks to shake it off....I kept questioning what i did wrong or different....pork and brisket had always been our strong suits...it wasn't what I did, I just hit bad tables........hope it's my last bad tables for awhile though!!:eek:

drbbq
01-30-2006, 06:13 PM
You had

Five 9's
Four 8's
Seven 6's
Two 5's

In taste you had 8-5-6-6-9-6

I'd say you just had a couple generous judges.

smokincracker
01-30-2006, 06:36 PM
You had

Five 9's
Four 8's
Seven 6's
Two 5's

In taste you had 8-5-6-6-9-6

I'd say you just had a couple generous judges.


Always good to hear from the Bonesmoker!!!
Forgive me if I don't see your point in the same direction.
You always know how to make a guy feel loved.

drbbq
01-30-2006, 07:22 PM
I might have a little more feeling if you didn't try to make it an FBA vs KCBS thing. They really aren't very different.

The_Kapn
01-30-2006, 08:21 PM
Jimmy,
I can not help explain your particular scores.
Not my intent here and something I can not do.
And--not making excuses--"Just the facts" :lol:

But, here is what transpired with the Judges at LakeLand.
The Rep (Steve in this case) had 10 tables of judges. 100% Certified.
He first seperated any "signifigant others" to different tables.
He then identiifed Qualified Table Captains. I think (can not be sure) that all were KCBS Certified Table Captains. Mine was certified and he was outstanding and very professional.
He then identified all of the "first time KCBS" judges and had 11 of us to spread around. He placed one "first time KCBS" judge at 9 tables leaving one table with 2. That pair was me and another FBA Judge with some experience. She had LOTS of experience in the FBA.

All this means is that Steve tried to make the playing field as level as possible. And, he did it very well in my opinion.

From that, who knows why judges would be varying that much, except that they are people. We will never get around that! Sure wish we could.

I will not compare FBA and KCBS judging other than to say the switch is easy and just a matter of some procedural differences. My particular table at LakeLand appeared to be "reletively consistant" based on our great discussions after each round of Judging.
I saw no "wild cards" in my little 10% of the Judges.
The other 90%??? I was not there.

Sorry it did not work out for you, but Steve did his best to level it out.

TIM

ps--Have your knees recovered from the vending experience? :lol:

willkat98
01-30-2006, 08:46 PM
Sorry it did not work out for you, but Steve did his best to level it out.



Tim,
Thank you for the detail on how the judging room appears to have been as most "even" as possible.

We've read numerous contest results with competitors saying "WTF?", but to see that a judges room has been evened out as much as possible is really good news.

I wonder what other "balancing" has taken place at other contests some of the Brothers have judged. Sorry, might be another thread topic

QN
01-30-2006, 08:52 PM
Mine was certified and he was outstanding and very professional.

Hey Tim,
Nice to have you at the table. Thanks for the kind words. I do try....

Mark D.
QN

The_Kapn
01-30-2006, 09:03 PM
Hey Tim,
Nice to have you at the table. Thanks for the kind words. I do try....

Mark D.
QN

"He He"--I drew a "lurker" out :lol:
Fine gentleman here folks.
He just hangs around more than he posts.
A real professional Master Judge, Table Captain, and part time cook IMHO.

TIM

kcpellethead
01-30-2006, 09:58 PM
I want to say something. I want it to be positive. I've been sitting at my computer for a few minutes, but nothing comes. Brisket was your best category.

I'd love for you to expand on how that individual explained the "very bleak future" idea. I don't know much, but I know this; folks dislike change. Folks resist change. Someday I'd like to share with you the reaction I saw to a set of scores the first time a long established team cooked an ABA event. Wow, that was something. The KCBS system is different than the FBA system, even if only slightly.

Five of the top ten teams at this contest were also top ten teams of the year in 2005, and the other five weren't there.

LostNation
01-31-2006, 04:56 AM
I agree with what others have said on the other forum you posted this question. If your product was overly spicy or sweet or bland, you may have two judges who loved their BBQ presented that way. The other judges must not have liked it. I think you have to cook toward's the middle to be successful. We've all had scores high and low on the same scorecard, It's a fact of life when you get 6 people trying to agree on anything.

smokincracker
01-31-2006, 05:18 AM
I agree with what others have said on the other forum you posted this question. If your product was overly spicy or sweet or bland, you may have two judges who loved their BBQ presented that way. The other judges must not have liked it. I think you have to cook toward's the middle to be successful. We've all had scores high and low on the same scorecard, It's a fact of life when you get 6 people trying to agree on anything.

Good ideas
perhaps the middle of the road was where I needed to me.
Thanks for your comments.

smokincracker
01-31-2006, 05:40 AM
I might have a little more feeling if you didn't try to make it an FBA vs KCBS thing. They really aren't very different.

Ray
I have cooked in 13 FBA contests on only 4 KCBS.
I was speaking from the limited experience I have developed so far.
As I said all my scores were all over the board and my cooking style has not changed and this was a first for me. This is the first time I have seen such overwhelming inconsistent scores.

I am in no way an FBA baby so don't put me in that category. Climb off your KCBS horse and relax. I cook a lot of FBA contests due to locality and convenience. This is just a hobbies for me not a political assignment. Thanks for your comments I'm not beyond self-examination.

666s or 999s / 999s or 666s
Anyway you look at it its inconsistent.
I realize to you it makes sense that the 999s are out of line. Right!

Congrats on your excellent overall finish in your home town.

Jimmy

smokincracker
01-31-2006, 05:47 AM
Jimmy,
I can not help explain your particular scores.
Not my intent here and something I can not do.
And--not making excuses--"Just the facts" :lol:

Thanks Tim
I'll chauk it up as a fluke and move on...
good post!!


ps--Have your knees recovered from the vending experience? :lol:
Sure they feel ok this morning

drbbq
01-31-2006, 06:59 AM
Jimmy,
I don't think I'm reading it wrong that you were saying that your FBA scores are always consistent while the FBA judge painted a bleak picture of KCBS judging and your scores were bad.

I've been there 100 times when my scores weren't what I had hoped for. Matter of fact it happened a couple weeks ago in your hometown at an FBA contest. I congratulated everyone and went on my way. I could have accused the FBA judges of not knowing what good BBQ was, but that would be a sore loser in my book.

I think that probably two judges liked your food and four thought it was average. I find that to be very possible. People like different things and that's why we use six judges and throw the lowest one out.

As a cook I feel it's my job to get all the judges to like my food, not the sanctioning bodies.

CharlieBeasley
01-31-2006, 07:04 AM
Jimmy
I hope if I ever break out and get to start competing I have the class and ability you show! It was a pleasure to meet you and listen to you and others talk BBQ and I learnd a lot from all of you. Keep your head up and you day will come it may be a hobby but I know just how hard you work at it and how much it means to you. No one not even Dr. BBQ can answer the question nor can they say if the beast (666) only got a piece of fat and 999 got the best piece of brisket ever delivered to man. In you heart you know what you turned in and how it rated in your ability. Keep on smoken one day I will sneek up behind you but for now Thanks You for the time and effort you spent with me in Key Largo!

smokincracker
01-31-2006, 08:26 AM
Jimmy,
I don't think I'm reading it wrong that you were saying that your FBA scores are always consistent while the FBA judge painted a bleak picture of KCBS judging and your scores were bad.

I've been there 100 times when my scores weren't what I had hoped for. Matter of fact it happened a couple weeks ago in your hometown at an FBA contest. I congratulated everyone and went on my way. I could have accused the FBA judges of not knowing what good BBQ was, but that would be a sore loser in my book.

I think that probably two judges liked your food and four thought it was average. I find that to be very possible. People like different things and that's why we use six judges and throw the lowest one out.

As a cook I feel it's my job to get all the judges to like my food, not the sanctioning bodies.

All good points...
Perhaps itís more of the same cooks and same judges week after week that make the FBA judges more consistent. Perhaps? Thanks for all your ideas.
See you in Wauchula!

smokincracker
01-31-2006, 08:28 AM
Jimmy
I hope if I ever break out and get to start competing I have the class and ability you show! It was a pleasure to meet you and listen to you and others talk BBQ and I learnd a lot from all of you. Keep your head up and you day will come it may be a hobby but I know just how hard you work at it and how much it means to you. No one not even Dr. BBQ can answer the question nor can they say if the beast (666) only got a piece of fat and 999 got the best piece of brisket ever delivered to man. In you heart you know what you turned in and how it rated in your ability. Keep on smoken one day I will sneek up behind you but for now Thanks You for the time and effort you spent with me in Key Largo!

Thanks for the words bro
You can cook with me anytime.

drbbq
01-31-2006, 08:41 AM
All good points...
Perhaps itís more of the same cooks and same judges week after week that make the FBA judges more consistent. Perhaps? Thanks for all your ideas.
See you in Wauchula!

I think that is probably true. I call it inbreeding and it's not exclusive to the FBA.
I also think when you attend a contest like Lakeland you throw a dozen top flight cooks in to the mix that don't regularly cook in Florida, and another dozen bad cooks. That means another couple dozen judges that have to come from somewhere and a much wider array of entries coming their way.

See you Friday.

Solidkick
01-31-2006, 12:54 PM
.
I also think when you attend a contest like Lakeland you throw a dozen top flight cooks in to the mix that don't regularly cook in Florida, and another dozen bad cooks. That means another couple dozen judges that have to come from somewhere and a much wider array of entries coming their way.



I like this comment.
Also, this event may have pulled KCBS judges from as many as 7 or more states....I know we cooked one last year that had judges from 11 states....

JohnMcD348
01-31-2006, 11:03 PM
Jimmy,
I can not help explain your particular scores.
Not my intent here and something I can not do.
And--not making excuses--"Just the facts" :lol:

But, here is what transpired with the Judges at LakeLand.
The Rep (Steve in this case) had 10 tables of judges. 100% Certified.
He first seperated any "signifigant others" to different tables.
He then identiifed Qualified Table Captains. I think (can not be sure) that all were KCBS Certified Table Captains. Mine was certified and he was outstanding and very professional.
He then identified all of the "first time KCBS" judges and had 11 of us to spread around. He placed one "first time KCBS" judge at 9 tables leaving one table with 2. That pair was me and another FBA Judge with some experience. She had LOTS of experience in the FBA.

All this means is that Steve tried to make the playing field as level as possible. And, he did it very well in my opinion.

From that, who knows why judges would be varying that much, except that they are people. We will never get around that! Sure wish we could.

I will not compare FBA and KCBS judging other than to say the switch is easy and just a matter of some procedural differences. My particular table at LakeLand appeared to be "reletively consistant" based on our great discussions after each round of Judging.
I saw no "wild cards" in my little 10% of the Judges.
The other 90%??? I was not there.

Sorry it did not work out for you, but Steve did his best to level it out.

TIM

ps--Have your knees recovered from the vending experience? :lol:


Pretty much what Tim said was the facts. I was one of those first timers there and the night of the class I had an ey opening experience. I'm just glad Tim was there next to me on Thursday and saaw what I was doing right and wrong. At my table I was the only one there who was inexperienced. Everyone else there had been judging for quite awhile. Even so most of our scores were pretty close, plus or minus 1 point. About the only that I scored better than the others was with one entry that was a little spicy. I loved it, thought it wa one of the better selections, the other judges were a little miffed by it. And I remember the last entry we talked about that actually tasted like Lighter Fluid. Other than that my table was pretty consistant and I don't think any other scores were below a 7. There were a couple of 1's passed out but they were for blatant mistakes on thepart of the entrant, it had nothing to do with the cooking.
Tim, I can't thank you enough for taking me under your wing and showing me the ropes. It was the best crash course, learning experience I've ever had. I can't say enough about it.

Thanks man...Alot.

smokincracker
02-01-2006, 03:05 PM
Pretty much what Tim said was the facts. had. I can't say enough about it.

Thanks man...Alot.

Good to meet you JT
Jimmy

The_Kapn
02-01-2006, 05:32 PM
"Tim, I can't thank you enough for taking me under your wing and showing me the ropes. It was the best crash course, learning experience I've ever had. I can't say enough about it.

Thanks man...Alot."

Glad you enjoyed Lakeland!
Niow, if Jimmy does not steal ya away :lol: --see you at Winter Haven.

TIM

JohnMcD348
02-01-2006, 08:16 PM
"Tim, I can't thank you enough for taking me under your wing and showing me the ropes. It was the best crash course, learning experience I've ever had. I can't say enough about it.

Thanks man...Alot."

Glad you enjoyed Lakeland!
Niow, if Jimmy does not steal ya away :lol: --see you at Winter Haven.

TIM

I'll definitely be there. I Already got permission from the boss.

spicewine
02-01-2006, 08:57 PM
It is a good thing that KCBS has a judging class because some of the people in the class did not have a clue and their scores were all over the place. Example--What is Kale?? I didn't know that that was Kale, I thought it was dark green lettuce. That was a 999 because I was hungry. I have to give it to the team who cooked for 84 potential KCBS judges. They had to cook marginal food ( not their best competion food) to give good and bad examples I wouldn't have wanted the job.

What I learned: Alot of the people who were there who weren't competition cooks had no clue what the teams have to endure to turn in great Q.

The guy next to me said man this is the greatest pulled pork that I have ever tasted!! I said that I have had pulled pork from no less than 12 teams that was better than this. He couldn't believe it. These are the up and coming that we at the KCBS will have to deal with. It was a good class and for the most part, the scores were relitively close, but there were some that were way High and those that were way Low , almost to the DQ level--2 and 3

It is all subjective---Roll the dice---Take the money and run

Spice

JohnMcD348
02-01-2006, 09:22 PM
Spice brought up something that I forgot to mention before. I was really impressed with the cooking in my class. All the meats were done by one guy. He was the winner of last years BackYard contest and I was thinking afterward how impressive it was to be able to cook bad Que just so we could have an idea of what to look for. I think it shows talent to really be able to do 3 levels of cook even for demostration purposes.
And one other thing about the subjectivity of the judging. I agree whole heartedly. If Tim hadn't been there watching me, I probably would've really screwed things up in the real judging. During the class, he compared my scores with his and that helped me out alot being able to compare my idea of Que(my own that I'm not impressed with and the commercial stuff that I go to sometimes) and what real good competition stuff is. I originally was looking for something with alot of spice and flavor instead of looking at the meat itself and judging all the characteristics of the smoke and the meat. I also learned that what I like for Que is something that wouldn't probably even place in a competition. I know now that the way I like it would just piss off a table. Too hot, too spicy, maybe even too smokey. But hey, that's what makes this country so damn great.

homebbq
02-02-2006, 03:12 PM
I've been there 100 times when my scores weren't what I had hoped for. Matter of fact it happened a couple weeks ago in your hometown at an FBA contest. I congratulated everyone and went on my way. I could have accused the FBA judges of not knowing what good BBQ was, but that would be a sore loser in my book.


Been there also (in Lakeland 2006) :wink:
Worst showing for me (overall) in SE US in the last 3 years... Oh well, thats the way it go's... You congratulate the winners, lick your wounds, and move on to the next contest... No reason to complain about the judging Jimmy, trust me, you will have days where you were given better scores than you thought you deserved, and you don't have to give the check back.. :wink:

homebbq
02-02-2006, 04:49 PM
I spoke to a seasoned FBA judge and cook that took the KCBS judging class the night before and his comments to me painted a very bleak picture about what to expect. He was right!


I realize I am commenting late on these things, but sorry I have been busy...

Anyway, I am not sure who that was that you spoke to, but comments that I heard is that the real new ones were scoring real low... Which is actually fairly normal from what I have seen... I really don't think the low scorers are the biggest problem. I think the ones who consistently hand out high scores, are the ones who skew things a bit... I used to hear alot where someone would tell me (in FBA) they give a 8.0 or 8.5 or (KCBS) 7.0 for submitting something edible... Well thats rediculous, they owe to all teams to score the bbq they are presented based on its own merits.. Anyway, my 2 cents..

drbbq
02-02-2006, 06:23 PM
Kevin,
Why do you think I dislike most judges.

smokincracker
02-02-2006, 07:42 PM
I realize I am commenting late on these things, but sorry I have been busy...

Anyway, I am not sure who that was that you spoke to, but comments that I heard is that the real new ones were scoring real low... Which is actually fairly normal from what I have seen... I really don't think the low scorers are the biggest problem. I think the ones who consistently hand out high scores, are the ones who skew things a bit... I used to hear alot where someone would tell me (in FBA) they give a 8.0 or 8.5 or (KCBS) 7.0 for submitting something edible... Well thats rediculous, they owe to all teams to score the bbq they are presented based on its own merits.. Anyway, my 2 cents..

Thanks for the 2 cents.
I'm done bi#@#in.
I wasen't trying to be a puss.
I will see you Friday with a better attitude.
I'm still one cooker down.
I will have to try to get it done one one.

seeya