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little bit of r & r
01-27-2013, 10:00 AM
I was on Facebook this morning and I ran across a picture that a judge from Alabama posted where she and 6 other judges including a table captain were at a bbq team's house and they did a practice to where the judges told them about the food. I personally do not agree with this because now there are 7 judges that know what this team is turning in this is the reason I have decided not to compete in Alabama this year there was some other problems like at another contest the table captain told a team there entry wasn't the one that got the 180 before awards. How can this be fair?

fnbish
01-27-2013, 10:11 AM
What!?!?!? What a great idea that is :becky:. I wish I could get a few judges over to my place for some direct feedback on my food. Those guys are brilliant.

If the judges are honest then they if they can definitely remember what that team turns in then there is no problem at all I see since they will judge honestly what is presented. And for me while my boxes do have a similar look they do change depending on how the meat cooks and what pieces are best to go into the box. So if they only saw one presentation then chances are they won't see the exact same box anyways as they could change.

But lets say that all 6 judges did it to help the team cheat........then the chance that all 6 are judging that particular competition and all 6 (or even 2-3) are at the same table and that particular table out of all the ones in the judging area happens to get that teams food......chances are really slim. So if all that is true they are really going out of their way to probably not help their scores at all and risk being caught.

This would not cause me to eliminate an entire state from my competition schedule.

nucornhusker
01-27-2013, 10:13 AM
To me it would be really tough to have a memory of that long about the way something tasted. And there is no guarantee that the cooks food will even see their table.

I see your point, but it's impossible to regulate something like this. If there is a husband cook and wife CBJ, I'm sure they could cook and judge the same event and they live together. I don't know if there is a rule against that, I've never seen or heard it if there is.

brownkw
01-27-2013, 11:07 AM
As a judge, I personally do not have a problem with this. There are enough variables at play with the random placement of judges at tables and the double-blind process (at least in KCBS) that it's highly unlikely that I'll see a particular team's entries.

This may be just me, but I do not remember an entry after judging it. I find that it helps me in being as objective and impartial as possible.

BBQ_Mayor
01-27-2013, 11:20 AM
I see nothing wrong with it....in fact I promote it..:-D
It's exactly how the Frostbuster BBQ works.
http://frostbusterbbq.blogspot.com/

Lake Dogs
01-27-2013, 11:36 AM
Worse, many of us competitors ARE judges. O M G; the world is coming to an end!!!!

Seriously, I've judged much more BBQ that I have competed in (BBQ, not all cooking competitions combined), and I cant think of a time where I witnessed even 1 judge give something an undeserved score. Plus, judges dont get to choose what comes to their table, so the odds of this happening are extremely low, and then it's only 1 of 5 or 6 judges at that table, so it really matters not.

Frankly, when I work up new recipes (and I've documented it here MANY times), I always bring in 10 of my best friends; that's 12 of us total, and 8 of us are CBJ's. I've always been of the opinion that without other peoples honest, sober opinion and critique it's a crap-shoot as to guessing what works and what doesn't.

Have any of them judged my BBQ in a competition? Not that I know of. I do know that if they did, I'd fully expect them to be as critical of my BBQ as ever and not give any extra vote my way, and frankly if you've judged as much as I have, it's almost impossible to do unless the competitor has THAT unique of a flavor.

little bit of r & r
01-27-2013, 11:44 AM
I guess I look at it a little different I see judges hanging out with the same teams that win every weekend it makes me a little suspicious especially when they take pictures of them at their house. What do y'all think about the table captain telling the team their chicken box didn't get the 180

brownkw
01-27-2013, 12:01 PM
I guess I look at it a little different I see judges hanging out with the same teams that win every weekend it makes me a little suspicious especially when they take pictures of them at their house. What do y'all think about the table captain telling the team their chicken box didn't get the 180

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... but in a KCBS contest, the table captain should not know which box belongs to which team. The boxes are renumbered and distributed in such a fashion that the majority of the time, a table should not get multiple entries from the same team. Obviously if this is a smaller contest, this may not always hold true.

And as far as hanging out with teams, there's nothing saying that you can't stop by a team's tent and say hello, wish them luck, etc. It's a whole different ball game, however, going into a team's cook site the day of turn-ins and watching what they are doing. In fact, KCBS is placing an emphasis on judge/cook relations.

Lake Dogs
01-27-2013, 12:01 PM
Telling the team that their chicken box didnt get the 180... I dont know, I suppose they were going to find out sooner or later. That the table captain knew... Happens. Should he/she have said it, probably not, but it didnt change anything.

"the same teams that win every weekend"... You know, I haven't seen this, an any series of contests, in any year, across any sanctioning body. Ever. Mind you, the better consistent scoring teams cook and compete frequently and pay wrapped attention to details, and they have this down to a science. But, even of them, I haven't seen one that wins it all every time, not even close. I've seen some have a bit of a streak, but streaks are meant to be broken, and they are. However, dont discount the amount of experience and practice that goes in to it. There's a reason they're consistently scoring high, because they understand that it's about not alienating that 1 judge more than it's about impressing any 1 judge. Same thing in every other cooking competition, FYI.

Uncle Buds BBQ
01-27-2013, 12:23 PM
I wish I could get a few judges over to my place for some direct feedback on my food. Those guys are brilliant.

What time should we be there? :hungry:

Jorge
01-27-2013, 12:23 PM
Telling the team that their chicken box didnt get the 180... I dont know, I suppose they were going to find out sooner or later. That the table captain knew... Happens. Should he/she have said it, probably not, but it didnt change anything.



It depends on when, in the process, the system was compromised. More than likely it was during or after data entry. If it was prior to that there is a problem.

fnbish
01-27-2013, 01:13 PM
What time should we be there? :hungry:

Today's butts and brisket will be done by 6pm. If you have no dinner plans swing on by :razz:

tigerpaw
01-27-2013, 05:04 PM
We did this exact thing with a local restaurant that was going to enter a contest for the first time. I know the owner personally. I like his BBQ OK. But his restaurant BBQ is NOTHING like that in events. In an attempt to help him understand this I gathered 6 judges together I knew. Two were master judges, 2 were cook team / judges as well as contest organizers and 1 was a new judge along with a non master judge. I spoke with a contest rep beforehand to insure there was nothing wrong with this in trying to help a new competitor out. Having judged many times entries from newbies as well as catering companies that had no idea what they were doing I thought this would help him finish at least middle of the pack in the event he entered. And that’s exactly where he finished. He gave us his entries as he planned to do on event day in his restaurant with the usual salad surrounding. He would have been DQ’d on two entries for what we all considered marking of entries that he was not aware of he could not do, one entry was nothing like we had seen before and gave him feedback on how to improve that, and by the time he got to brisket we knew he was confused about what these 6 idiots were looking for.

Lake Dogs
01-27-2013, 05:44 PM
It depends on when, in the process, the system was compromised. More than likely it was during or after data entry. If it was prior to that there is a problem.

Yep, true that.

little bit of r & r
01-27-2013, 06:15 PM
We did this exact thing with a local restaurant that was going to enter a contest for the first time. I know the owner personally. I like his BBQ OK. But his restaurant BBQ is NOTHING like that in events. In an attempt to help him understand this I gathered 6 judges together I knew. Two were master judges, 2 were cook team / judges as well as contest organizers and 1 was a new judge along with a non master judge. I spoke with a contest rep beforehand to insure there was nothing wrong with this in trying to help a new competitor out. Having judged many times entries from newbies as well as catering companies that had no idea what they were doing I thought this would help him finish at least middle of the pack in the event he entered. And thats exactly where he finished. He gave us his entries as he planned to do on event day in his restaurant with the usual salad surrounding. He would have been DQd on two entries for what we all considered marking of entries that he was not aware of he could not do, one entry was nothing like we had seen before and gave him feedback on how to improve that, and by the time he got to brisket we knew he was confused about what these 6 idiots were looking for.
I could see probably doing this with a newbie team that had never entered a contest but this was a team that did fairly well last year

mjulrich
01-27-2013, 06:16 PM
I see your point, but it's impossible to regulate something like this. If there is a husband cook and wife CBJ, I'm sure they could cook and judge the same event and they live together. I don't know if there is a rule against that, I've never seen or heard it if there is.


We have a team that are CMBJ's and now the husband cooks and the wife doesn't want to. She has been told by several Reps that she can't judge if her husband cooks. The reps are not allowed to make sure her table doesn't get his entries because that would be favoritism and that is not allowed.

I have heard of events telling judges not to fraternize with team at all. Including after the judging and awards. As I understand it, judges are not to fraternize with teams starting at midnight on Friday till after the judging is done. No where I have heard or seen tells me that there is no fraternization with teams.

There is no problem with teams having judges over to sample/judge their foods.

Michael
CMBJ
J.F.

sdbbq1234
01-27-2013, 06:27 PM
We have a team that are CMBJ's and now the husband cooks and the wife doesn't want to. She has been told by several Reps that she can't judge if her husband cooks. The reps are not allowed to make sure her table doesn't get his entries because that would be favoritism and that is not allowed.

Michael
CMBJ
J.F.

IMHO, I am not sure the reps have anything to back them up on that.

I am better if I can see it in writing.

wallace

nucornhusker
01-27-2013, 08:37 PM
We have a team that are CMBJ's and now the husband cooks and the wife doesn't want to. She has been told by several Reps that she can't judge if her husband cooks. The reps are not allowed to make sure her table doesn't get his entries because that would be favoritism and that is not allowed.

Michael
CMBJ
J.F.I'm not a contest rep or an organizer, so you very well may be right. I've just never seen it in writing before.

sitnfat
01-28-2013, 07:01 AM
I saw the pics too. All I can say is if it's keeping you from cooking in AL don't bother cooking in TN or MS either. I have had judges come to my house before and tell me what they thought about my BBQ. Did I help maybe a little with tenderness. I see nothing wrong with it. Maybe you should ask them to come try your BBQ one weekend it may help you out

ModelMaker
01-28-2013, 07:51 AM
Well thanks for assuming all of us judges are cheating slugs...
I can tell you this, you could bring your entry into the judging tent and walk it right up to the table and stand there while I judge it and you'll get no better or worse score than it deserved. Period.
Ed

Lake Dogs
01-28-2013, 08:02 AM
I could see probably doing this with a newbie team that had never entered a contest but this was a team that did fairly well last year

So, the best shouldn't be allowed to work on recipes and perhaps improve?

Seriously. I'll bet whoever this team is/was that they produced multiple recipes, to be judged against one another, so he/she could see which one(s) score better, and why. I know when I've done it, I did this very thing, cooked multiple recipes (different rubs, different injections, sometimes actually across multiple cookers with different smoking woods used) and I used varying sauces on them. It gave us literally a matrix of combinations to be judged. And, they were (judged).

So, we can't do this now? Using people, some who happen to be CBJ's, to tell us which they prefer and why? OK....

Last time I/we did this at my house (organized anyway, we always do a little of this at parties for fun) I did only 2 injection recipes against one another, but 16 base sauces (that's 32 combinations). Damned if all 12 didnt agree across the board at the end, and that involved mixing and matching the 3 of the 4 best scoring sauces with one particular injection. It was a very fun and quite FILLING afternoon. AFTERWARDS we hit the Margaritas, which have never scored worse than 2nd in any competition.... :becky:

I suggest not coming to Georgia, too. There's trouble in them thar hills!!!

little bit of r & r
01-28-2013, 08:19 AM
Like I said I think I look at things a little different and no I don't trust anyone. After this it has me really considering not competing at all I hate it because I love the competition but I feel like there is always a slight disadvantage.

DawgPhan
01-28-2013, 08:27 AM
Like I said I think I look at things a little different and no I don't trust anyone. After this it has me really considering not competing at all I hate it because I love the competition but I feel like there is always a slight disadvantage.


It sounds like competition BBQ isnt for you. At least you know that.

HookedonSmoke
01-28-2013, 08:31 AM
I think that this is a stroke of genius. We all practice but to have a team of judges there to evaluate your end product is awesome. There is no way that the judges will be able to consistently pick out a particular teams entry.

If you are boycotting AL, you may as well boycott all events within at least 300 mile radius to be on the safe side. I mean really what are the chances of tainted results?!?!?

bbq.tom
01-28-2013, 09:02 AM
I've been asked to "help" a new team (from a CBJ perspective) by not only the team, but also another team in the area that just wanted the new team to know what they were doing when they entered their first comp. Team to team is good advice, but when they hear constructive criticism from a CBJ they might listen closer.
Would I ever sway my score if I tasted what I thought might be the entry from the team I helped - NO! I have more integrity than that and I truly believe that MOST CBJs do also.

If you don't trust ANYONE, then why bother!

CarolinaQue
01-28-2013, 09:13 AM
Imagine that...a team that want's to stay consistent with doing well asking, likely friends that are CBJ's, for an honest critique of a likely new sauce, rub or technique. All of this before a contest so they can make final tweaks if they are needed.

Imagine that...a team trying to do all they can to stay successful with out cheating!!!

boogiesnap
01-28-2013, 09:20 AM
i think it's been discussed many times before. the odds of successfully leaning scores in favor of a particular team and them winning is very very very slight. there would have to be some major corruption throughout the whole system for that to be happing and i highly doubt that to be the case.

there are a handful of teams up here that can expect to GC any given comp they attend, both in the northeast AND abroad. has nothing to do with cheating judges, just badass cooking skill. IMHO.

dosvans
01-28-2013, 09:23 AM
Being the team that had the 6 judges over this past weekend, I don't think that you are realistic in your thinking. As other people have posted, this is going on in more states than Alabama. I know teams out of GA, TN, and MS that are getting feedback from CBJs/MCBJs that they know. Do you really believe that any CBJ/MCBJ that I am friends with should never ever taste and critique my food? My wife and I are both CBJs and judge a few contests. Are you saying we should never taste another teams food outside of a specific competition?
As far as the Judges that I had over to my house this weekend, I consider them very honest and respectable people. I don't think they read this forum, but if they did, I'm sure they would be offended that you think they would cheat for any team.
Honestly, I really think it would be a shame if you did not compete in Alabama or anywhere else. Based on the your standing in the BAMA BBQ Trail this past year, you are obviously a good team and cook good BBQ.

bbq.tom
01-28-2013, 09:34 AM
As other people have posted, this is going on in more states than Alabama. I know teams out of GA, TN, and MS that are getting feedback from CBJs/MCBJs that they know.

Include NC in the list.

TooSaucedToPork
01-28-2013, 10:22 AM
The Team and Judges have done absolutely nothing wrong. We are all one big family here in BBQ, and the sooner everyone realizes that and gets rid of the Judges vs Teams attitude the faster we can all improve and have a better time. Judges are ALWAYS welcome in our tent up until Midnight of the day before the contest...and they are DEFINITELY welcome in my booth after they judge so that I can find out what flavor profiles did well and if mine matches up. If you are a judge and want to come to my house PM me and I will send you my address, lets talk BBQ.

Most of my team is made up of MBN, MIM, and KCBS CBJ's. When we don't cook a contest, we judge it. We have made many friends in BBQ and hang out at each others houses outside of contests...why??? because its fun to learn from each other and you have a common bond.

The traditition of Competition BBQ is one big family. it was alot different 20 years ago when most of us at a competition knew each other, each others family, place of work, and of course who to schmooze for the best hunting land :-)

Point is, many of us remember that this is one big family, and since the BBQ Explosion (not to dis on the newcomers) some have not learned or have forgotten that.

(Dismount Soapbox)

Neil

Rookie'48
01-28-2013, 10:30 AM
Might as well include Iowa, also.

I've judged somewhere around 85 or 90 KCBS sanctioned comps, mainly in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas and Nebraska and have undoubtedly tasted entries from some of the nation's top teams. Can I pick out the flavor profile or appearance of any one team? Fark NO !!!

And even if I could, if it doesn't rate a 9 then it's not getting a 9 from me.

mobow
01-28-2013, 10:57 AM
Like I said I think I look at things a little different and no I don't trust anyone. After this it has me really considering not competing at all I hate it because I love the competition but I feel like there is always a slight disadvantage.

If you think you are at a disadvantage have some judges over to your house to sample your food. You are only at a disadvantage (your words) by your lack of action. keith

Lake Dogs
01-28-2013, 01:35 PM
Little Bit of R&R, might I suggest judging a few contests. I promise, it will be eye-opening and enlightening. We can talk about this and that, but until you sit in that chair and judge, most of what we're saying here just seems like bitter B.S. It's not. I hope you continue to compete, especially if you enjoy it. If you're competing in KCBS or another major sanctioning body, I promise, it's not rigged.

And, the different sanctioning bodies do it very differently, too. Dont watch a KCBS competition and think they're all like this. They're all different, all have pluses and minuses to each thing they do. I'll never forget the KCBS competitor who came here and really complained about the "cheating" judges in GBA because he saw how the judges are seated in GBA and didnt understand how different it is than KCBS (judges sit at different tables, with a different mix of judges at each table, every time).

Anyway, it was interesting what a tiny bit of information without any perspective can lead to...

little bit of r & r
01-28-2013, 01:48 PM
I have judged and everything I judged was way below the quality of mine so I don't know why my scores are where they are sometimes. I did a gba it was different don't know about doing it again I prefer kcbs but when you stack 7 judges in your corner they know what boxes you turn in it will benefit. Yes they may not judge their entries but if you have those 7 there are probably more.

little bit of r & r
01-28-2013, 01:53 PM
I see I am apparently the only one that feels this way so I guess it is time I step away from competing I can always use that extra $1000 a month.

Lake Dogs
01-28-2013, 01:57 PM
To me, honestly, it sounds like you need 6-12 or so critics to come and give you constructive criticism. The old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing. The reason I say this is that yours may be too far this direction, or too little of this or that, for the average person out there. All it takes is one, particularly 2 judges to not be as impressed as the others and *voila* that thing that the others so liked has you middle-of-the-pack.

Example: My partner at most of the competitions where I cook likes a little food with his salt. I, frankly, am 100% the opposite. He smokes; I dont. He likes salty and sweet. I like mildly sweet, and no where near the salt. He also really likes fat, and I really hate to get a bite of fat.

Now, that that to a KCBS table judging brisket, and lets say your brisket is a little on the salty side and you presented it with the fat-cap mostly on. He'll be giving you the 9, and I'll be significantly less impressed. FYI: For this reason we try to be on different tables when judging.

My point is this: You may have too much salt, or too little, or too much sauce, or too little, or any other of the terrible too's.

TooSaucedToPork
01-28-2013, 02:21 PM
I have judged and everything I judged was way below the quality of mine so I don't know why my scores are where they are sometimes. I did a gba it was different don't know about doing it again I prefer kcbs but when you stack 7 judges in your corner they know what boxes you turn in it will benefit. Yes they may not judge their entries but if you have those 7 there are probably more.

I see I am apparently the only one that feels this way so I guess it is time I step away from competing I can always use that extra $1000 a month.

Not to be rude, but how long have you been involved competition BBQ?

There is NO WAY in hades that EVERY entry that was on your placemat was worse than yours. I've been competing near 20 years, and judging over 14 years and I still judge things better than mine at Comps. If you can't admit something is better, or you aren't cooking for the judges, thats mistake #1 that you are making.

We are trying to explain how it works in this sport. I'm sorry your opinion is that Judges and Teams should never talk but that ain't how it is. We all talk all the time, we give each other hints and yes, we taste each others food and give feedback.

This is how it works. You can get angry and feel its not fair, but it's not going to change...sorry for the reality check but welcome to Competitive BBQ.

bbq.tom
01-28-2013, 02:28 PM
I have judged and everything I judged was way below the quality of mine so I don't know why my scores are where they are sometimes. I did a gba it was different don't know about doing it again I prefer kcbs but when you stack 7 judges in your corner they know what boxes you turn in it will benefit. Yes they may not judge their entries but if you have those 7 there are probably more.

Sounds like you sat down to judge with a preconceived notion of what is good and didn't judge each entry on its own merits. Just because you like the appearance, flavor and tenderness of what YOU are turning in doesn't mean that other judges will.

If only six teams enter the contest and those 7 judges that you talk about are the ones judging that day, then that team you are talking about has a pretty good chance - IF the judges are NOT "honest" judges. Knowing MANY of the judges that I judge with weekend after weekend I honestly think that you are really stretching to find fault with the judging process.

If you truly have so little confidence with the process, then you might be right to look for another hobby. Just saying...

little bit of r & r
01-28-2013, 02:30 PM
I have only been in competition bbq for 6 years but then again I am only 28. Yes the stuff I have had wasn't as good as what I turn in, just about every contest we get at least one call sometimes more but once we left Alabama and ompeted in ms we had a reserve grand maybe my tastes are better for the one state over than Alabama. So everyone doesn't see how judges that are at every single contests the competitors are at and hanging out that a team doesn't how them pics of turnin boxes so they can pick it out. How do you think the team knew from the table captain that their entry didn't get the 180.

dosvans
01-28-2013, 02:52 PM
How do you think the team knew from the table captain that their entry didn't get the 180.

Not sure what team you are talking about, but my guess it was a legs vs. thigh type of thing. There are those teams that always turn in legs. So my guess is that the Table Captain told them they didn't get the 180 because it was an all thighs entry or vice versa. With that said, the Table Captain should not be telling anyone anything. To be honest, I've been to 3 contests this year where a team has told me that they heard a specific category had a 180. Of course in all 3 of those cases, they were completely wrong. If you really think about it, does it really make a difference that the team you speak of found out they didn't get the 180? It doesn't mean that anyone got a score that they didn't deserve. That doesn't make it right that they were told anything, but it's not something to quit cooking over.

TooSaucedToPork
01-28-2013, 03:09 PM
I have only been in competition bbq for 6 years but then again I am only 28. Yes the stuff I have had wasn't as good as what I turn in, just about every contest we get at least one call sometimes more but once we left Alabama and ompeted in ms we had a reserve grand maybe my tastes are better for the one state over than Alabama. So everyone doesn't see how judges that are at every single contests the competitors are at and hanging out that a team doesn't how them pics of turnin boxes so they can pick it out. How do you think the team knew from the table captain that their entry didn't get the 180.

Man, take it with a grain of salt...This is about fun, if you ain't having fun then you are in the wrong hobby.

There are a hundred things that could have happened with that. The team could have described their turn in AFTER the judging and gotten feedback, the Table Captain could have broken the rules, or more often than not...That Table captain was practicing the Golden Rule of BBQ...BS. He was probably talking out his rear end just like hundreds of BBQers before him. He could have been trying to get a rise out of some team members he knew...

Just shrug it off. Its BBQ

mjulrich
01-28-2013, 03:29 PM
little bit of r & r, it seems to be that you have grudges with judges. Sure there might be some judges that can pick out a certain teams entry but I believe that those judges are far an few between. The likely hood of all those 7 judges remembering those boxes is highly unlikely. It seem like your pissed off because no judge will come over and judge for you at your house. I am sure that, unless you piss of judges, that judges would be willing to come over and judge your meats as well. Ask them your next comp.

Sure Table Captains might know what a team turns in just by being close to the door, and that table captain is out of line stating to that team. but you know what we are human.

If you think you stuff is so much better than everyone else, then why aren't you winning GC every time? Sure you might cook good but there are always a better teams out there. When you say I judge and everything that I judge is not as good as mine, then maybe you should retake the CBJ class or stop judging! We are not there to judge if they cook better than me, we are there to judge what is presented to us that day! We are not there to compare each meat with each other. We are to judge each meet on it own merit, read the CBJ hand book. If you can't do this then you should not judge.

I am not trying to pick on you, but what you have said hits a nerve with me. Statements that you have made gives ALL judges a bad reputation with teams.
Judges have a bad enough time with half truths and misconceptions we don't need more.

Michael
CMBJ
RMBBQA Member
Judge Fairly Certified

Lake Dogs
01-29-2013, 09:06 AM
...This is about fun, if you ain't having fun then you are in the wrong hobby. ...



I'm not sure anyone has said it more clearly. Bravo!

R & R, you're in bbq-brethren. It's about friendship, and comradery. You'd posed a legitimate set of questions, and I think we've answered your questions, each in our own way.

While I dont have as many BBQ competitions (as a competitor) as many here, I have competed in lots of food competitions, and frankly there are tons of similarities. First and foremost, and I think one of the things you're not doing, is that you cook for and to judges tastes; NOT YOUR OWN tastes. Competing in chili contests really drove this home for me personally as a cook. There is a balance to be had, and this same lesson applies to any cooking competition where you have multiple judges judging and in essence critiquing your food. Dont alienate any judge.

As to the judge talking to the team about not getting a 180, there's been lots of suppositions, conjecture, and frankly whatever it was you heard, it was obviously not 100% of the story, otherwise you'd have known exactly how this came to pass. My point is, a partial truth is just that, only a partial understanding. The rest is fill-in-the-blank assumptions.

For goodness sake; have fun. This is a hobby. If you're not enjoying your hobby, dont do it.