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View Full Version : Advertised prize fund..can trophy cost be added?


big matt
12-21-2012, 02:00 PM
Recently a promoter has started to add trophy cost to his prize money that's advertised..I've heard from a very reliable source that this practice is against KCBS rules..I just wanted a little more clarity about this..input?

Robert
12-21-2012, 02:09 PM
I guess the word that pops into my mind concerning this issue would be ethics. The question is: Would it be etihcal to include the cost of the trophies as part of the payout prizes?

My answer is no. Trophies are part of the expense to put on the cook-off. How about we include the fees the electrician charges to produce electrical hook-ups for the teams as part of the prize purse as well?

I just think it would be poor judgement to include the trophies as part of the payout total.

Jorge
12-21-2012, 02:12 PM
$$ only.

EDIT:Unless something has changed in the last several months. Trophies, ribbons, additional prizes may be advertised but not included in the advertised payout. If that is happening or happened I'd contact the office and provide as much info/evidence as possible.

big matt
12-21-2012, 02:14 PM
I guess the word that pops into my mind concerning this issue would be ethics. The question is: Would it be etihcal to include the cost of the trophies as part of the payout prizes?

My answer is no. Trophies are part of the expense to put on the cook-off. How about we include the fees the electrician charges to produce electrical hook-ups for the teams as part of the prize purse as well?

I just think it would be poor judgement to include the trophies as part of the payout total.

100% in agreement

Scottie
12-21-2012, 02:22 PM
What does Jorge know?... :evil:

He is right though...

Jorge
12-21-2012, 02:32 PM
What does Jorge know?... :evil:

He is right though...

I learned everything I needed to know after talking to your neighbor that makes things go boom!:-P

DawgPhan
12-21-2012, 02:37 PM
I dont think that they should include anything but pro-side payouts. If they say $10k prize money there should be $10k in prize money for the sanctioned bbq contest. I have gotten more and more annoyed by contests that talk about their large prize pool and then half of it has been given away before they call the first sanctioned winner.

Jorge
12-21-2012, 02:44 PM
I dont think that they should include anything but pro-side payouts. If they say $10k prize money there should be $10k in prize money for the sanctioned bbq contest. I have gotten more and more annoyed by contests that talk about their large prize pool and then half of it has been given away before they call the first sanctioned winner.

A KCBS sanctioned contest is required to submit a prize list, paying a minimum of 5 places deep per category along with the prize for each place (if they advertise $50 for 5th they are obligated to pay $50 and not $50-ribbon cost) If organizers are doing something short of that the office needs to be informed.

EDIT: I just read the post again and think I understand what you meant now. Back to my day job!

DawgPhan
12-21-2012, 02:53 PM
A KCBS sanctioned contest is required to submit a prize list, paying a minimum of 5 places deep per category along with the prize for each place (if they advertise $50 for 5th they are obligated to pay $50 and not $50-ribbon cost) If organizers are doing something short of that the office needs to be informed.

EDIT: I just read the post again and think I understand what you meant now. Back to my day job!


yeah I think that in 2013 I am just going to be far more diligent about finding out about payouts before sending in an application and check.I am going to stop paying attention to the "total prizes" and start paying attention to the sanctioned payouts.

big matt
12-21-2012, 02:59 PM
Thank you guys for the clarity.

Rub
12-21-2012, 04:01 PM
Sometimes they word it $10k in cash and prizes....

RangerJ
12-21-2012, 05:12 PM
When I lived in AZ, the big debate was always about the "Best Booth" as it was deducted from the prize fund.

Seems ancillary stuff was coming from the overall total of expected cook off winnings. Or so I was led to believe.

but they debated a lot in AZ, I was a rookie team and the amount of dough in the pot was irrelevant.

big matt
12-21-2012, 05:41 PM
Sometimes they word it $10k in cash and prizes....

See it's the "and prizes" part that's the problem IMO..it's turned into KCBS as a certain amount but then it's being pumped up after that on flyers and so forth..to me it's shady used car salesman chit..which we don't need nor are we going to fall for it.

ThomEmery
12-21-2012, 06:32 PM
http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2012_Sanctioning_Application.pdf
Page 2
Item 5

Slamdunkpro
12-21-2012, 07:09 PM
See it's the "and prizes" part that's the problem IMO..it's turned into KCBS as a certain amount but then it's being pumped up after that on flyers and so forth..to me it's shady used car salesman chit..which we don't need nor are we going to fall for it.
Not to bring up old wounds but after the St.Louis debacle, has KCBS ever pulled sanctioning over an advertized prize pool reduction prior to an event?

INmitch
12-21-2012, 09:35 PM
Not to bring up old wounds but after the St.Louis debacle, has KCBS ever pulled sanctioning over an advertized prize pool reduction prior to an event?

Brings to mind WI Dells a couple years ago. Thanks to Walt (Smokin Scottsman) for calling them out!! 10k prize money consisted of gift cards to the local outlet mall and BP gift cards. But.......They were'nt BP gas cards, they were for the Buffalo Phils BBQ!!

Slamdunkpro
12-21-2012, 09:48 PM
Brings to mind WI Dells a couple years ago. Thanks to Walt (Smokin Scottsman) for calling them out!! 10k prize money consisted of gift cards to the local outlet mall and BP gift cards. But.......They were'nt BP gas cards, they were for the Buffalo Phils BBQ!!
I vaguely remember that, did KCBS sanction and then pull or did the event never get off the ground?

Big Poppa
12-22-2012, 09:06 AM
the sad part is that the trophies suck. heheheh

Rich Parker
12-22-2012, 09:39 AM
I vaguely remember that, did KCBS sanction and then pull or did the event never get off the ground?

I believe KCBS intervened and the competition went on with cash instead of gift cards.

Coz
12-22-2012, 11:14 AM
Brings to mind WI Dells a couple years ago. Thanks to Walt (Smokin Scottsman) for calling them out!! 10k prize money consisted of gift cards to the local outlet mall and BP gift cards. But.......They were'nt BP gas cards, they were for the Buffalo Phils BBQ!!


The original advertising was cash prizes .About a week before they changed it to cash and prizes . If I remember right there was maybe 3500 in cash rest was gift cards etc. Walt and Theresa had the right phone #s on Speed dial. Somewhere I still have the original and the secondary advertising saved. 14 K plus payed in in entries. As a cook in Wi I hope that gal never comes back as an organiser .There were a lot of issues at that one.Good thing Fat Andy knew a lil about electrical stuff or some one most likely would have had the shock of there life:mad: My personal opinion is that if there isnt some passion for BBQ in the heart of the organiser that they wont ever have a great contest.

Coz
12-22-2012, 11:16 AM
I believe KCBS intervened and the competition went on with cash instead of gift cards.

As far as I know it actually was cash paid. We had a particularly bad cook and I cant say from actual experience :tsk::tsk:

big matt
12-22-2012, 12:16 PM
This is the bullchit I got from said promoter..thoughts?

Come on Matt -- I can think of 5 and if you go back and look at actual payout $$ vs advertized Prize pool I bet is closer to 19 than what you may think.... Again you are missing my point -- Just because I print $20,000 Prize pool on my event flyers-- for the public-- does not mean I am telling you guys is $20,000... I am promoting a $17,500 CASH Pechanga event here... By the way if you win the GC-- I will keep the Harley which is about % done for this event... If anyone else wins they get it... and yes I want that in writing on your entry form (should this Harley deal go through)... Your Cheap plastic trophy for GC at Vista was over $235 dollars by itself.. metal tractor and all... and we gave out 43 trophies at that event.... so yes Trophies account for about $1,250 per event... and don't tell me your entry fee pays for those--- example NYE/NYD Cash $$ 15,000 -- Entry Fees collected- $9,177.... DEFICIT- almost $6,000... Trophies -2 days $1236.95 x 2 = $2,473.90 + 6,000 = Going into the event - DEFICIT- $8,473.90..... ADD electricity, music, police, Health Department, Fire Dept, fencing, etc... and I am going into this event OVER $25,000 in the hole... so your entry fee doesn't pay for jack... unless 40 or more teams attend.. and then that covers just the cash payout if that...--- If we don't get 2,000+ folks to come down to the event -- (I am hopefull we will get 3,500+) I lose $$... This is a risk/reward I am willing to take at some venues-- obviously Casinos are great because much of these costs are either not necessary HD, Fire, Police and/or covered by the Casino's themselves... still the costs to put on an event with prize $$ and all are around $35,000 (+/- depending on cash prize) and if we (promoters) had to count on just BBQ teams to cover expenses-- at an avg cost of $299 per event-- we would need 117 teams to show up at every event, to actually be even going into the day of the event... I hope you promote an event one of these days, and realize the stress, and luck (weather) that is needed to break even, or make a little bit of money...... In most cases the GC (Vista for example) makes more money than the promoter did.. and you worked for a day on your craft- while we worked for 4-6 months on ours.... Just some food for thought...

big matt
12-22-2012, 12:18 PM
20,000 in the hole?..looks like someone should find a better line of work

big matt
12-22-2012, 12:42 PM
It's getting even funnier now

matt dalton, on 22 December 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:
You still didn't answer the question I asked twice..why did you change the way you promote?

Because in business if you stay the same you die, you have to adapt and improve... if others are doing it a certain way and being successful at it, then you have to at least try it... In life you are either getting better or getting worse there is no in between... I've learn valuable lessons along my journey, better electrical systems for my events, lower costs on many things without compromising quality, marketing better, evolving the way PC is paid, etc... When I make changes is to better the product-- the overall prize $$ say 20,000 or more for Pechanga should no matter to a team like yours, that just wants cash... but cash should-- so every time I mention $20,000 total prize -- with $17,500 in cash in the same sentence-- you should be happy that the actual $$cash number is being mentioned-- in the future I see more and more Prizes, cars, trips, maybe a grill or two, and other non- cash prizes being added to OVERALL PRIZE for an event, especially as sponsors begin to loosen up and the economy gets better-- and I can see some events being $30,000 in cash and prizes (not just trophies) with $10,000 in cash and $20,000 in prizes... especially if our sport grows... Like Golf in TV -- the $2,000,000 purse of the PGA Championship is not just cash.. its a new Cadillac and Rolex watches etc.. + cash that makes it a $2,000,000 purse... I am sure the golfers know -- just like you do- what the actual CASH distribution is vs other Prize items... I don't see them promoting it as the $1,750,000 CAsh PGA Championship... I see them promoted as the $2,000,000 purse PGA Championship..

hankf19
12-22-2012, 12:45 PM
This is the bullchit I got from said promoter..thoughts?

Come on Matt -- I can think of 5 and if you go back and look at actual payout $$ vs advertized Prize pool I bet is closer to 19 than what you may think.... Again you are missing my point -- Just because I print $20,000 Prize pool on my event flyers-- for the public-- does not mean I am telling you guys is $20,000... I am promoting a $17,500 CASH Pechanga event here... By the way if you win the GC-- I will keep the Harley which is about % done for this event... If anyone else wins they get it... and yes I want that in writing on your entry form (should this Harley deal go through)... Your Cheap plastic trophy for GC at Vista was over $235 dollars by itself.. metal tractor and all... and we gave out 43 trophies at that event.... so yes Trophies account for about $1,250 per event... and don't tell me your entry fee pays for those--- example NYE/NYD Cash $$ 15,000 -- Entry Fees collected- $9,177.... DEFICIT- almost $6,000... Trophies -2 days $1236.95 x 2 = $2,473.90 + 6,000 = Going into the event - DEFICIT- $8,473.90..... ADD electricity, music, police, Health Department, Fire Dept, fencing, etc... and I am going into this event OVER $25,000 in the hole... so your entry fee doesn't pay for jack... unless 40 or more teams attend.. and then that covers just the cash payout if that...--- If we don't get 2,000+ folks to come down to the event -- (I am hopefull we will get 3,500+) I lose $$... This is a risk/reward I am willing to take at some venues-- obviously Casinos are great because much of these costs are either not necessary HD, Fire, Police and/or covered by the Casino's themselves... still the costs to put on an event with prize $$ and all are around $35,000 (+/- depending on cash prize) and if we (promoters) had to count on just BBQ teams to cover expenses-- at an avg cost of $299 per event-- we would need 117 teams to show up at every event, to actually be even going into the day of the event... I hope you promote an event one of these days, and realize the stress, and luck (weather) that is needed to break even, or make a little bit of money...... In most cases the GC (Vista for example) makes more money than the promoter did.. and you worked for a day on your craft- while we worked for 4-6 months on ours.... Just some food for thought...


Oh Matt-- you run and hide like a little girl... I welcome you to promote and event... what are you chicken -- that you have to hide from the CBBQA forumn and cry like a little baby... waaaaa... how about I "kick you out of all my events" unless I receive a public apology with this bs you are causing... Consider your team banned from any future Fit2go event.. until such apology takes place... By the way-- I still have that photo, of how you left your comp site at Wildomar one year-- would you like me to foward that to the KCBS and tell the City of Wildomar who that site belong to... can't believe your attitude lately.... Get off you meds...

big matt
12-22-2012, 12:53 PM
The only one crying is you Henry..and I understand why..I'm not hiding from you or anyone else I posted this here so I could get an unbiased opinion..so we're banned from your events?..what picture are you going to try to blackmail me with the grease in the dirt?..you a ****ty promoter and ALL of us know it

Pappy Q
12-22-2012, 01:07 PM
Wow, is that how California organizers and contests are? Good reason to stay away. Intentional misleading is wrong no matter how you want to spin it.

Big Poppa
12-22-2012, 02:00 PM
OK Im in this mess. BTW My resume includes a full season on the PGA tour and three years strategic advisor to IMG Golf. What you say about the prizes on the tour are incorrect Henry.

Henry instead of going off on a rant that makes us all look bad... banning, blackmail threats, and immature taunts....Are you in compliance with KCBS rules regarding stated prize money? If you are we can all move on.

Banning Matt is plain wrong. Until the ban is lifted we will not enter any of your competitions.

Scottie
12-22-2012, 02:22 PM
Couldnt agree more Sterling. Good for BPS and Left Coast.

Coz
12-22-2012, 02:34 PM
With out going thru actions with the KCBS Board can an individual or team be banned from a KCBS event ?

big matt
12-22-2012, 03:14 PM
Well I didn't ever think I would get banned from a promoter..hmm say I'm sorry for speaking the truth?..Fffff that!!..I live in America buddy land of the free baby!..I could really go off but I'll just leave it at that

Jorge
12-22-2012, 03:31 PM
With out going thru actions with the KCBS Board can an individual or team be banned from a KCBS event ?

Yes. Organizers can decline an entry.

Jorge
12-22-2012, 03:38 PM
OK Im in this mess. BTW My resume includes a full season on the PGA tour and three years strategic advisor to IMG Golf. What you say about the prizes on the tour are incorrect Henry.


Note to self: No Nassau action playing w/Sterling.

Bigmista
12-23-2012, 01:24 AM
It's funny that this is the picture on the front page of the CBBQA site.
http://www.cbbqa.org/forum/uploads/gallery_2233_252_18697.jpg

Dan - 3eyzbbq
12-23-2012, 07:57 AM
Just for clarification purposes, what exactly is the apology supposed to be?

Sounds like Matt was just asking some questions.

Muzzlebrake
12-23-2012, 08:55 AM
Just for clarification purposes, what exactly is the apology supposed to be?

Sounds like Matt was just asking some questions.

Thanks Dan I thought I was the only one that was missing something. I'm getting the feeling there is a whole lot more to this then we're reading about here.

Rich Parker
12-23-2012, 09:55 AM
Matt - How is this competition being advertised? In the email it sounds like it is being advertised as a $20k event with $17,500 in cash.

Rich Parker
12-23-2012, 10:13 AM
Matt - How is this competition being advertised? In the email it sounds like it is being advertised as a $20k event with $17,500 in cash.

Nevermind, I found the thread on the CBBQA forum and glad to hear you guys worked it out.

Entry Form attached.... Lets make the Richest BBQ State Championship in California the Best... $20,000 in cash and Prizes.... $17,500 in cash guaranteed... One day event - JUNE 22nd, 2013

I have seen this type of marketing at other comps and don't see a problem with it since he specifically says $17,500 in cash is guaranteed.

hogzgonewild
12-23-2012, 10:29 AM
I can't believe the audacity of this organizer. I hope all of the Cali teams boycott his events and put him out of business!

big matt
12-23-2012, 10:30 AM
Nevermind, I found the thread on the CBBQA forum and glad to hear you guys worked it out.



I have seen this type of marketing at other comps and don't see a problem with it since he specifically says $17,500 in cash is guaranteed.

Yeah we talked on the phone yesterday..we worked it out.