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View Full Version : An idea for the Table Captain to help judges


Uncle Buds BBQ
12-02-2012, 04:55 PM
At all of the contests I have have been involved in I see that most judges hide their score card so that the scores can't be seen by the other judges.

I do the same thing because I don't want my score to influence the folks sitting near me. The downside is that I have no clue what the other judges thought of a particular sample.

I few weeks back while doing the table captain job a judge asked "if the table scores were close?" so I quickly ran through the taste scores. It went something like..."First one got a 9,9,8,6,8,9..second one got a x,x,x,x,x,x..."

I read out just the taste scores and to do all 6 turn-ins it took like less than 10 seconds.

Since then each time I table captain I tell the judges the taste scores for each of the 4 meats. I think it helps the judges when they find out how their score related to the others. And since I read them in no particular order no one judge is getting "called out" for their score.

So in the example above...the guy that gave a 6 will know that the rest of the table thought the sample was better than average. Now...there is nothing to say that maybe that piece of chicken or rib deserved a 6 but maybe the judge was new and now he has some feedback about his score.

What do you think? Any negatives with this?

wjwheeler
12-02-2012, 07:04 PM
I think it's a good idea. It's always amazing when you get 5 8s and/or 9s then get a 6 or a 5. It makes you wonder if it's a veteran CBJ or a newby.

bbq.tom
12-02-2012, 10:40 PM
I like the idea also! Not revealing who scored what score, but letting the table know how the other judges judged the same entry. That should also help the "out of line" judge (be it high or low) know that just maybe they are truly scoring wrong or at least not the within the "normal" scores given by others on the same entry.

I'd actually like to see a mandatory comment section on the scorecard for ALL entries so that the judge can (MUST) indicate WHY the score was given. Won't ever happen in KCBS, but I honestly think that this will make the judges think harder about the scores given.

djqualls
12-02-2012, 11:51 PM
I hope the judge tracking in the new KCBS software will help keep judges informed on performance. I just took my CBJ class and I just don't understand how some contests can't keep from being a train wreck if a few judges get way off the norm across a couple of tables.

Crash
12-03-2012, 04:30 AM
I like the idea. As long as the scores are read randomly and out of order, no judge gets "called out".

Uncle Buds BBQ
12-03-2012, 06:40 AM
I like the idea. As long as the scores are read randomly and out of order, no judge gets "called out".
Yep...I just kinda shuffle them before I read the scores.

ModelMaker
12-03-2012, 07:54 AM
Hey what a great idea, rouge table captains decideing to change the rules and procedures set forth by KCBS. You in no way shape or form should take it upon yourself to teach, direct, or cajole judges in how they are scoring anything.
Your job as table captain is to present the samples to the table and if you feel a rule has been broken take that concern to the reps, period.
If you think your idea is worthy, present it in writing to KCBS BOD and let it become an accepted, regulated procrdure followed exactly the same by every table captain at every contest.
My feeling is you should stop taking matters in your own hands immediatly.
Ed

Uncle Buds BBQ
12-03-2012, 07:59 AM
Hey what a great idea, rouge table captains decideing to change the rules and procedures set forth by KCBS. You in no way shape or form should take it upon yourself to teach, direct, or cajole judges in how they are scoring anything.
Your job as table captain is to present the samples to the table and if you feel a rule has been broken take that concern to the reps, period.
If you think your idea is worthy, present it in writing to KCBS BOD and let it become an accepted, regulated procrdure followed exactly the same by every table captain at every contest.
My feeling is you should stop taking matters in your own hands immediatly.
Ed
OK...how have I changed the rules or procedures?

How does this teach, direct, or cajole judges?

And yes I have suggested it to the BOD.

ModelMaker
12-03-2012, 09:09 AM
OK...how have I changed the rules or procedures?

How does this teach, direct, or cajole judges?

And yes I have suggested it to the BOD.


You have changed the procedure by injecting your personal idea into a preset controlled way of judging at the table. Are you a certified table captain or did you just volunteer? Did you listen and follow the rules and procedures set forth in the TC CD? Did the CD mention anything about sharing the tables scores with the judges?

Here's how your actions could affect the judging. After chicken cards are turned in and you read out the scores 998886. Now the judge that gave a score of 6 knows what his card was and may or may not be intimidated to match higher scores because he doesn't want to be the oddball score the rest of the day. Now you know as well as I do taste between 6 different pieces of chicken has the chance to be off between them. The 6 scoring judge may have got a piece that was overpowering with one spice or another, it happens. Now perhaps you calling out scores will cause him to inflate his scores just to match up with the others even if the rib he judges next does not meet his idea of great taste.
The point is you cannot take it upon yourself to make changes in how KCBS judging is carried out.
Offering your idea to the BOD is the correct way to proceed.
Ed

BoneDaddy's
12-03-2012, 09:18 AM
I have an old copy of th Table Captain Guidelines (2007) that state:

Prevent any conversation, comments or comparisons of the entries during the judging of any category or entry. There should be adequate time for discussion after your table scorecards are turned in at the end of each judging category.

Assuming that they are the same rules now, I read this to mean that discussing scores is ok. I support this practice and hope that it would cause the "6" to pause and evaluate how he/she scores. Maybe in this case the 6 was a bad peice of meat or maybe they just don't know how to score!

dmprantz
12-03-2012, 09:19 AM
I like the idea. As long as the scores are read randomly and out of order, no judge gets "called out".

Why should randomness be a requirement? Keep them private long enough so that you don't influence other judges at the table on that entry, but after that, they shouldn't be a secret...or should they? Is a it a requirement that judges can't know how other judges at the table judge the same meat? I can't think of another "sport" where there is such secrecy, can you? This reminds me of single deck blackjack where players hold their cards close thinking secrecy is good, when in reality they are hurting every other player. I have to wonder, if you are ashamed of the scores you are writing down, should be judging?

dmp

wmaes47
12-03-2012, 09:46 AM
Hey what a great idea, rouge table captains decideing to change the rules and procedures set forth by KCBS. You in no way shape or form should take it upon yourself to teach, direct, or cajole judges in how they are scoring anything.
Your job as table captain is to present the samples to the table and if you feel a rule has been broken take that concern to the reps, period.
If you think your idea is worthy, present it in writing to KCBS BOD and let it become an accepted, regulated procrdure followed exactly the same by every table captain at every contest.
My feeling is you should stop taking matters in your own hands immediatly.
Ed

:clap: Hear, hear...

Very well said...

fnbish
12-03-2012, 09:57 AM
I've only judged twice, but after all the tasting was done there was typically talking after that, which primarily included who liked what and why. Granted I was asking the judges lots of questions to see why they thought what they thought and most of the time there was a consensus, but there was also some times where a few judges opinions differed. I'm guessing this type of conversation happens all the time and seems like a very similar thing as the OP suggested.

If the rules that BoneDaddy put up are still true then I see nothing wrong with this and sounds like it isn't against the rules at all. Could it be that the one judge that scored the meat a 6 got a completely different taste/texture? Absolutely and I see it myself when I'm testing chicken before it goes in the box. Some pieces simply end up being more tender/juicy/tasty. Can't bite em all though :razz:. And if that is the case then they there is no reason to reconsider and I hope the judge is secure enough in theirself to not make them think twice, but if they are consistantly scoring lower than everyone across the board that is cause for concern.

Maybe not the best comparison here but...........in competitions where subjectivity is how scoring is based such as in the Olympics (diving/gymnastics) or like cheerleading all the scores are out in the open. So it might be similar where the judges know the scores and perhaps it helps to keep things more consistent.

afreemaniii
12-03-2012, 10:36 AM
I judged for the first time last year at the Sam's Club local event in Des Moines. I was seated next to a woman who has judged for several years and at a table with several other experienced judges, three of them could have been the table captain. While actively judging each category, we all kept our scorecards well hidden from each other. After turning in the our cards, I spent a few minutes talking with the woman to get her input on what she liked best and worst and why. I viewed this as my chance to compare my opinions to an experienced judge and could only help me in competitions. We never discussed actual numbers, just general impressions. After the rib category, the table captain:
1. Talked with one judge about their scores being quite a bit lower than the rest of the table.
2. Told the rest of us that our scores were quite even.

I thought this was great and didn't know if it was normal or not. I didn't see anything in the official rules prohibiting such an action, but the official rules don't include the table captain procedures. If a table captain telling the judges that their scores are out of whack or about the same is inappropriate, then I figure it would have been mentioned by an experienced judge at my table or handled by Mike Lake who was the rep at the contest.

ModelMaker
12-03-2012, 12:14 PM
I judged for the first time last year at the Sam's Club local event in Des Moines. I was seated next to a woman who has judged for several years and at a table with several other experienced judges, three of them could have been the table captain. While actively judging each category, we all kept our scorecards well hidden from each other. After turning in the our cards, I spent a few minutes talking with the woman to get her input on what she liked best and worst and why. I viewed this as my chance to compare my opinions to an experienced judge and could only help me in competitions. We never discussed actual numbers, just general impressions. After the rib category, the table captain:
1. Talked with one judge about their scores being quite a bit lower than the rest of the table.
2. Told the rest of us that our scores were quite even.

I thought this was great and didn't know if it was normal or not. I didn't see anything in the official rules prohibiting such an action, but the official rules don't include the table captain procedures. If a table captain telling the judges that their scores are out of whack or about the same is inappropriate, then I figure it would have been mentioned by an experienced judge at my table or handled by Mike Lake who was the rep at the contest.

I'm fairly certain if someone would have told Mike that the table captain took it upon himself to mention low scoring to a judge you would have had a new table captain before the next catagory arrived.
If in case there was a problem in low scoring the TC should have brought it to the reps attention and only then and only by the rep should anything been said to that judge.
Ed

Crash
12-04-2012, 03:47 AM
I'll stand by my opinion. I don't see the harm in a TC randomly offering scores AFTER judging for a category is complete. On the flip side, I do see the point on making sure that it is within the KCBS rules.

Hell, we know the judges often discuss their thoughts on each category anyway.

BigBellyBBQ
12-05-2012, 03:43 AM
this is a good idea as the consistancy of scoring has to be raised and it should be reviewed why one or two low scores were given, if we keep going the way things are and think they are okay someday the saying "he went postal" will be changed to he went bbq and the medics will be called to the judges tent!!!

afreemaniii
12-05-2012, 07:01 AM
Do you have a copy of the procedures and rules that a table captain is supposed to use? I can't seem to find one anywhere online. No one else has provided specific documentation stating that any of the actions talked about in this thread are not supposed to happen.

As a competitor, I don't see the harm in a table captain or rep doing what I witnessed at the contest. However, if it is strictly forbidden by the rules and procedures that table captains are privy to and I am not, then that would be a totally different story and I would agree with you wholeheartedly.


I'm fairly certain if someone would have told Mike that the table captain took it upon himself to mention low scoring to a judge you would have had a new table captain before the next catagory arrived.
If in case there was a problem in low scoring the TC should have brought it to the reps attention and only then and only by the rep should anything been said to that judge.
Ed

afreemaniii
12-05-2012, 07:05 AM
I'll add this from the 2007 version of the table captain instructions that I did find online (http://www.bbqdan.com/kcbs/kcbs_bbq_contest_table_captain_instructions_2007.p df).

Check for any score that has great deviation from other scores given at your table for the entry/criteria. If you encounter a judge whose scores you believe have deviated from the other judges, bring this to the attention of the contest representative. Do not confront the judge unless directed to do so by the contest representative.

So it is feasible that the table captain did exactly what he was supposed to by pointing out the low scoring judge at our table to Mike Lake and Mike asked him to talk with the judge. Obviously I would have no way of knowing if that conversation happened or not.

ModelMaker
12-05-2012, 08:33 AM
For those interested, if your a active KCBS member you can go to the KCBS website and log in, go to Resources tab, then downloads, the 2012 table captains instruction (mp3).
It mentions in the beginning and at the end what the TC should and should not do.
I think it's pretty clear that everything in question should go through the rep and no individual action is allowed.
Yes, judges can and should discuss the quality of the category just judged. It is a great way to share thoughts and learn from each other, but at no time should actual scores be brought up in a way that would influence how a person should "fall in line" with the rest.
Our goal is not to have all judges give high scores, it is for judges to individually score to their best ability. If I give a rib a 6, no one should try and talk me into matching scores from the rest of the table.
Ed

tigerpaw
12-05-2012, 10:26 AM
A question - Would it also be a concern for a table by you to hear the scores at your table while they are awaiting their samples to be delivered or are in the midst of their own judging? We as judges are hushed many times by the CR for talking too loudly while other tables are still judging.