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nmayeux
11-19-2012, 03:42 PM
A little back ground:

Dave (Uncle Bud's BBQ) and I cooked a contest this weekend with 89 pro teams, so we weren't looking for GC. :) However, we have each cooked 4 times this year, and two contests as a team as well as both of us are CBJs with Dave having judge 21 contests this year...

With that being said, we think we have a pretty good idea of what a good brisket should be. To address our previous scores, we cooked with our first Creekstone Brisket, and to be honest it was the best brisket either of us had ever cooked.

The issue:

We know we cooked a good brisked, and while not expecting 1st place, we were stunned to be scored just above DAL... (pretty much straight 7s in taste and texture). This is on top up having several judges stop by and taste our turn in brisked and give us their thoughts (at least 8s in T&T). Even today (two days later), my wife and I are just amazed at this brisket.

Our Dilemma:

We know that there was stiff competition, so we can reason that 89 teams, a bad table, 5 truly fantastic entries judged at the same table, etc...

But we can't help wondering if due to the size of the event that the numbering could have been messed up, or if the scores were keyed incorrectly. Or could it be something that we just didn't anticipate...

I know I am whining, but the bottom line is instead of getting drunk and trying to explain the scores, what do you do when you truly question your results?

Podge
11-19-2012, 03:49 PM
I've oftened wondered if the Alternate #'s get mixed up. I could only speculate this happened to you. The reps keep the boxes after the contest (I don't know when they get thrown away).. so you could ask to see the boxes and check the #'s yourself I would think. If that happened to me, I would not think twice about asking to see the boxes. I think I'm a good brisket cook, and if I turn in something I think that should be in the 170's and it turns out to be in the 150's, I'm questioning it.

DawgPhan
11-19-2012, 03:50 PM
suck it up and move on. I really dont know of anything you can do. I am sure there is some procedure for appealing a score, but that might have to happen at the contests or before the scores are certified.

That happens to the best of them. keep cooking good food and it will average out.

DawgPhan
11-19-2012, 03:54 PM
I've oftened wondered if the Alternate #'s get mixed up. I could only speculate this happened to you. The reps keep the boxes after the contest (I don't know when they get thrown away).. so you could ask to see the boxes and check the #'s yourself I would think. If that happened to me, I would not think twice about asking to see the boxes. I think I'm a good brisket cook, and if I turn in something I think that should be in the 170's and it turns out to be in the 150's, I'm questioning it.

have you ever actually gotten your boxes back after awards?

just asking because I would have never even thought about that.

Cast Iron Chef
11-19-2012, 04:00 PM
We held a contest this weekend in Vegas. I judged as well as help host. The KCBS rep kept all the boxes until after awards so if anyone had a question about the box numbers being mislabeled or duplicated they were still available.

hogzgonewild
11-19-2012, 04:02 PM
I was there judging for the first time, so I'll give you what I know, and what I saw behind the scenes....

As for a numbering mess up, I highly doubt it. You had 6 KCBS reps, not to mention 4 of the BEST KCBS reps working the competition. Because of the way the boxes are re-numbered with stickers, the Reps would have had to mess up 2 boxes (by the way that if you give one team the wrong sticker, you would have to give another team the wrong sticker) and the same time. And this is double checked and then "cleared" to the table captains after each turn in before the boxes are discarded.

Being a competition cook, and having the opportunity to judge this weekend taught me this....It really is the luck of the draw on what judges you get, and what table you are put on.

I personally gave a lot of 8&9's, with only a few 7's for deliberate mistakes or problems, but there were a few judges at the tables I sat at, who gave 6's and 7's without batting an eye.

Couple this with the fact that you could have been #6 on the table, and #1-5 were just that much better than yours, you could have gotten the judged comparatively to theirs. Not saying it is suppose to happen, but it does.

I hate it for you, as we felt the same way after leaving Cleveland, GA a few weeks ago. (We cooked the best food ever, and had one of the worst finishes to date.) But do this, instead of dwelling on it, kicking yourself, and/or blaming the judges....let it encourage you to practice more and try harder, so you can come back at the next competition and kick butt.

I'm cooking 4 Briskets this weekend for the same reason. We love our brisket, judges disagree, so after tasting 6 boxes this weekend, I'm determined to find a recipe I think they will like!

HarleyEarl
11-19-2012, 04:04 PM
I had a similar issue with pork at one contest this year. I use the same presentation for each contest and all but one I scored 8s & 9s (9s far out weighing the 8s) for presentation. But the one in question, I got 5,5,6,7,7,7 - all I could attribute it to was that my box got mixed up with someone else's. Not much I could do since by the time I received the score sheet, the judges were long since gone and knew the KCBS Reps couldn't have done much. So I just sucked it up and moved on to the next contest where BTW, I got all 9s in presentation.

fnbish
11-19-2012, 04:09 PM
That blows. The pork I turned in there I thought was one of the best I've ever cooked and pork has been our best category this year. It completely bombed and I was pretty shocked. So wasn't sure what the heck to figure other than hit the wrong table.......or in fact it sucked a very very large amount :doh:.

CivilWarBBQ
11-19-2012, 04:18 PM
There were no box numbering errors at Cumming; I'll put a $100 bill on that. The Braziers and the Polands ran the Pro contest, and they don't allow such mistakes.

Big contests are just bloody difficult to win. With 14 tables, some teams are going to be fortunate enough to land on 4 higher scoring tables and some will be cursed with one or more lower scoring tables - there's an inevitable luck factor with big contests. It sucks, but it does effect all teams randomly. Just look at QSB: Grand Champs in Cleveland, hammered in Cumming a couple weeks later.

My team was crushed at the Cup too. And yes, we thought we had a pretty good cook. But I'm sure there were at least 70 other teams in Cumming who felt the same way. Not everybody can fit at the top of the scoresheet when there are nearly a hundred good teams in play.

Uncle Buds BBQ
11-19-2012, 04:23 PM
A little back ground:

Dave (Uncle Bud's BBQ) and I cooked a contest this weekend with 89 pro teams, so we weren't looking for GC. :) However, we have each cooked 4 times this year, and two contests as a team as well as both of us are CBJs with Dave having judge 21 contests this year...

With that being said, we think we have a pretty good idea of what a good brisket should be. To address our previous scores, we cooked with our first Creekstone Brisket, and to be honest it was the best brisket either of us had ever cooked.

The issue:

We know we cooked a good brisked, and while not expecting 1st place, we were stunned to be scored just above DAL... (pretty much straight 7s in taste and texture). This is on top up having several judges stop by and taste our turn in brisked and give us their thoughts (at least 8s in T&T). Even today (two days later), my wife and I are just amazed at this brisket.

Our Dilemma:

We know that there was stiff competition, so we can reason that 89 teams, a bad table, 5 truly fantastic entries judged at the same table, etc...

But we can't help wondering if due to the size of the event that the numbering could have been messed up, or if the scores were keyed incorrectly. Or could it be something that we just didn't anticipate...

I know I am whining, but the bottom line is instead of getting drunk and trying to explain the scores, what do you do when you truly question your results?

As DawgPhan says "Let it go...." Stuff happens.

We'll try again and it will be a different result. Although that is the definition of "Insanity"! :shock:

Kit R
11-19-2012, 04:35 PM
A hypothetical question, not directed to the OP but to the general concept of questioning results. Does anyone here ever question GOOD results? I will admit I have a time or two. And if so what did you do about it? I took the check and resolved to cook better next time.

nmayeux
11-19-2012, 04:37 PM
As for sucking it up, moving on, etc., that really isn't the reason for this post. I am way to deep into this mess to quit now. Also, nobody is looking to place blame, as we know the organizer and reps, who we like and respect.

But with roughly a $1000 spent to compete, at what point do you honestly question results, and what do you do? This is the real question. This is just the first time where I have reached this point.

drbbq
11-19-2012, 04:50 PM
Am I the only guy that thinks 7's making you almost DAL is a problem? With a three points system it's anybody's guess who will win.

indianagriller
11-19-2012, 05:06 PM
Dont get too bent out of shape, there have been a few times where we have won a catagory with a recipe and then the next week that same recipe has came in almost DAL... its the luck of BBQ

mjl
11-19-2012, 05:08 PM
As for sucking it up, moving on, etc., that really isn't the reason for this post. I am way to deep into this mess to quit now. Also, nobody is looking to place blame, as we know the organizer and reps, who we like and respect.

But with roughly a $1000 spent to compete, at what point do you honestly question results, and what do you do? This is the real question. This is just the first time where I have reached this point.

When do you honestly question results? Usually it only happens when the scores are lower than expected. No one questions when they get 8's and 9's. Sounds like you enjoyed your food, seems the judges didn't, it happens. I would be more concerned with 3 9's and 3 6's from the judges, that is more likely to have me questioning the judges. Straight 7's seems pretty straight forward and consistent to me. Every competitor I know has a "good turn in/bad score and bad turn in/good score story", it is part of the territory when you have subjective judging. If you believe in your product and flavor profile, stick with it, one contest is a small sample pool.

markG
11-19-2012, 05:17 PM
Am I the only guy that thinks 7's making you almost DAL is a problem? With a three points system it's anybody's guess who will win.

And there is the winning answer. I am a newbie this year and there were some things that I turned in that should have been a solid 3 and got 7's. The scoring scale is wide for a reason, I thought. I would rather get an honest 3 than a (lowball in the mind of a nice judge) 7, so I can know that it was REALLY bad and give me something to work on.

sitnfat
11-19-2012, 08:08 PM
This is nature of the beast for a big contest. A lot of new judges from whatever area it's in a lot of really good teams. They are crap shoots.

drbbq
11-19-2012, 09:08 PM
And there is the winning answer. I am a newbie this year and there were some things that I turned in that should have been a solid 3 and got 7's. The scoring scale is wide for a reason, I thought. I would rather get an honest 3 than a (lowball in the mind of a nice judge) 7, so I can know that it was REALLY bad and give me something to work on.

The problem is the cooks all want high scores so they're ok with the three point system. It's ridiculous IMO.

Smokin' Hicks
11-19-2012, 09:32 PM
not to say this happened to you, but....was our 4th year in the 2012 St. Louis BBQ Bash, it is a 95 or so team comp., a lot of fun....it is 8 catagories and the first catagory we turned in was chef's choice...smoked beef tenderloin and grilled lobster medallions with a lemon grass and butter sauce...anyway, they started the calls for all catagories and we got 5th in brisket 2nd in chili 2nd in pork and was thinking we prob. were in the top 10 or so....well they begin to call the overall places starting with 10 and we dont get called and started to wonder that was weird....well you dont get your scores till two days later in this comp. ..so my team mate goes to get our scores and sees we are 67th overall and got top 14 at least in all the other catagories.....he starts to look at each catagory to find out which one we bombed and sees chef's choice and sees 000 000 000 000 000 000 for our scores in chefs choice....to make a longer story short he gets incontact winth the organizer finally gets the score found the organizrer finally gets back to us appologizing and said we were actually 4th place overall and not 67th.....so lost scores or switched scores which ever you wanna say it deffinitly does happen

Meat & Heat
11-19-2012, 09:37 PM
And there is the winning answer. I am a newbie this year and there were some things that I turned in that should have been a solid 3 and got 7's. The scoring scale is wide for a reason, I thought. I would rather get an honest 3 than a (lowball in the mind of a nice judge) 7, so I can know that it was REALLY bad and give me something to work on.

+1 on that.
The last two comps we did this year we put out in my opinion some of the best food to date and finished in the bottom third. The best results we had was the worst cook of the year, almost could't even put the ribs in the box without them falling apart. The brisket was wayyyyyyyyyyyyy overdone, the chicken was a disaster and the pork butt was dry ( I fell asleep and the cooker got way outa control) but we finished in the top third. I know it's a crap shoot sometimes but it does make you wonder how could that be. I also would like to get a true honest score, if it sucked I really want to know and why. I would like to see a few more coment cards so that way you can have a good idea what was wrong, getting just one really leaves you hanging.

AZScott
11-19-2012, 09:51 PM
How do you know your awesome brisket was still that good when the judges tasted it?. A lot can happen to brisket slices being held in a box and while laying on a paper mat. I'd bet money your slices were dry, dull and bland by the time the judges got to them.

Jeremy Moyers
11-19-2012, 10:46 PM
We cooked the same contest and cooked the best chicken we have cooked to date (or so we thought) and landed 73rd..... We also felt that our brisket was a little over done, but it landed us a 12th place.

Overall, we felt good about all of our food so I'm trying not to be reactionary and change my entire chicken program because of one bad contest. It does drive you crazy though.

I know that Gary and Dionn from Holy Smokes told me before awards that they felt that their pork was terrible, yet they got first in pork and landed the RGC. Who knows, but I'll be out their weekend after next to give it another shot.

BKBBQ
11-20-2012, 06:37 AM
I blame it on the margaritas.

CaptTable
11-20-2012, 06:59 AM
As stated earlier, there is not much way the boxes could have been mis-numbered. At our turn-in table, as do most reps, we use two (2) people to change numbers. One reads the box number, the other looks down the list to find the corresponding alternate number, removes the sticker and covers the box number. The reader is watching to ensure the proper sticker is used.

Table captains are instructed to not remove boxes from their table until told that the numbers had cleared (ALL matched). All boxes are kept until well after awards just in case someone does want to question their entry, so please feel free to do so any time.

As for scoring input. Each card is double checked before "save" is pressed. Top 2, middle 2, and bottom 2, along with any individual score of 20 or less, is audited for each category. We even audit some individual teams that surprise us by being near the bottom when their reputation indicates they are usually higher. Then, when individual team score sheets are printed they are EACH reviewed to make sure no particularly low score may have slipped by for ANY team.

I thought the scores n Cumming were actually pretty high. The grand champion in Plant City would have finished 33rd in Cumming.

Ray is right, right now 7's are deadly. Do I have an answer? No. Decimals? Wouldn't the deadly 7 just change to 7.5 or 7.8? Someone will determine the magic number.

Sorry for the long post, but just wanted to put a couple of things out there. Hope it eased some minds that every effort is made to ensure the scoring is as honest and fair as possible. Knowing how much money (both spent and available to win) is on the line makes it pretty stressful for us, too.

Phillip

BRBBQ
11-20-2012, 07:02 AM
You said these judges stopped by and commented, I'd give you a high score also since I couldnt be secrective and vote in private, surprised they didnt say 9's,, (This is on top up having several judges stop by and taste our turn in brisked and give us their thoughts (at least 8s in T&T).

Pigs on Fire
11-20-2012, 07:57 AM
There's been a few contests this year when we've turned in what we thought was fantastic, well-cooked and presented food.

And then we say through awards, still waiting to hear our named called after GC is called... The fall Rome comp and Winder were two that were the biggest disappointments.

We didn't come out of there with much money or hardware, but to come away in 5th overall in that field...I'm still grinning from ear to ear.

Rub
11-20-2012, 08:22 AM
Bottom line, it happens to everyone at some point or another. As long as there are humans involved it will be so. You just always have to cook your best then hope and pray you land on good tables. Excellent cooking is only part of the winning equation.

ModelMaker
11-20-2012, 08:40 AM
Y'all just haven't figured it out yet, any time you think you nailed it you should expect crap scores. Conversely when you turn in crap look for that top score, it's something in the stars me thinks.
Seriously though, I'm thinking the "problem" is the 2 kinds of judges. one judge uses 7,8,9's pretty much exclusively. They think if they give a 7 the poor cook team will not win and they feel bad after being instructed by the Rep to "give the team the benefit" because they've spent so much money.
Then there's the other kind of judge that sores as they were taught, each entry has the potential to be scored 2 thru 9, and is very aware that a score of 6 is average and there is plenty of average out there.
So, in my opinion until all KCBS judges get off this 7,8,9 only mentality, you cooks are going to continue to be amazed and amused...
Ed

big brother smoke
11-20-2012, 09:07 AM
Bottom line, it happens to everyone at some point or another. As long as there are humans involved it will be so. You just always have to cook your best then hope and pray you land on good tables. Excellent cooking is only part of the winning equation.


Agreed, I think it will balance out. I have taken some walks at times that baffles the mind. You got to take the good with the bad!

fnbish
11-20-2012, 09:19 AM
Seriously though, I'm thinking the "problem" is the 2 kinds of judges. one judge uses 7,8,9's pretty much exclusively. They think if they give a 7 the poor cook team will not win and they feel bad after being instructed by the Rep to "give the team the benefit" because they've spent so much money.
Then there's the other kind of judge that sores as they were taught, each entry has the potential to be scored 2 thru 9, and is very aware that a score of 6 is average and there is plenty of average out there.
So, in my opinion until all KCBS judges get off this 7,8,9 only mentality, you cooks are going to continue to be amazed and amused...
Ed

I do agree it appears that there are 2 kinds of judges. Not sure if that will ever go away, but it can certainly be worked on.

To your statement "So, in my opinion until all KCBS judges get off this 7,8,9 only mentality, you cooks are going to continue to be amazed and amused...", I don't think is accurate because I (and probably other cooks) would still be "amazed/amused" with large fluctuations using the whole scoring table.

So to that point one way I see to somewhat "fix" or at least shed more light to why a score was a 7, 6, 5, etc is to have the judges use feedback cards a lot more even for 6's and 7's. If I see a random 6 in flavor or tenderness when all the other scores were 8's and 9's I have no shame in saying I get the knee jerk "what the heck is this person thinking" reaction. Did they in fact get the one piece in the box that was dramatically different then the others or are their standards much higher or whatever.

Because there are judges out there that say cooks just can't handle a 5, 6 or a 7 and immediately cooks jump on the defensive thus keeping the cooks vs judge line very large. Sometimes that is true simply for the fact because we don't know why we got those scores. Yes I hate getting those low scores, but I hate even more that I don't know why so I can work to improve my product. Even if it is a 7 I want to know why.

So for the judges that don't cook or even the ones that do cook and think cooks can't handle a low score that is just part of the story for me. Because how would they like it if you were told something was awful/mediocre (for anything in life), but given no explanation to why and how to improve so the next competition (scenario) you can fix the issue. Yes we spend a lot of money and no that isn't a reason to simply give us higher scores, but give us a reason you thought the food wasn't up to your standards of "excellent/9" so we can improve.
Anyways that was a little long and I realize having that many comment cards filled out would be difficult, but something to think about.

I always like these kinds of discussions because I think they will help to improve (not perfect, as you will never please everyone) the scoring system. Comments like "deal with it", "suck it up" etc lead nothing to constructive conversation for what the op was looking for.

Rub
11-20-2012, 09:58 AM
I always like these kinds of discussions because I think they will help to improve (not perfect, as you will never please everyone) the scoring system. Comments like "deal with it", "suck it up" etc lead nothing to constructive conversation for what the op was looking for.
JMO here Jason after 10 years of bbq scores and observing this very thing, but the people who need cluing in aren't reading this or any other bbq bulletin board. For the most part "we" are not the problem, we get it. The ones who need to see this never will because they aren't as involved on as many levels as we are.

I used to get my hopes up 8-10 years ago thinking that these issues would be rectified, now I've learned to "suck it up" and "deal with it" so it doesn't drive me crazy. I would love to see improvements but I am not holding my breath.

Jacked UP BBQ
11-20-2012, 10:01 AM
The worst is when you get 989589, you wonder, maybe I deserved all 5's? or maybe one judge was a douche and I deserved the better scores. Human judging will never be perfect, and as far as the judging goes it will always be compared to the best entry they have ever had or what in their mind should be the perfect entry. So unless you nail that, its rough. Just move on. 7's are good scores in most parts. Keep it up, you will nail a first next comp! Show the box and we will tell you what you deserved at least in appearance.

fnbish
11-20-2012, 10:13 AM
JMO here Jason after 10 years of bbq scores and observing this very thing, but the people who need cluing in aren't reading this or any other bbq bulletin board. For the most part "we" are not the problem, we get it. The ones who need to see this never will because they aren't as involved on as many levels as we are.

I used to get my hopes up 8-10 years ago thinking that these issues would be rectified, now I've learned to "suck it up" and "deal with it" so it doesn't drive me crazy. I would love to see improvements but I am not holding my breath.

Yeah and I do get that and certainly as someone still "new'ish" to competitions I may have more of a "youthful faith" that things can change :doh:. But my main point was really for more comment cards. In the end I still work on my product and won't let strange scores get me down as I know the way it is now won't change overnight.

Podge
11-20-2012, 10:41 AM
As for scoring input. Each card is double checked before "save" is pressed. Top 2, middle 2, and bottom 2, along with any individual score of 20 or less, is audited for each category. We even audit some individual teams that surprise us by being near the bottom when their reputation indicates they are usually higher. Then, when individual team score sheets are printed they are EACH reviewed to make sure no particularly low score may have slipped by for ANY team.



Phil, I'm glad to see that. And I know that you and kathy, ernie and linda do a hell of a job. KCBS reps are the first things I consider when going to a contest.

I did not realize the contest he spoke of with the Cumming, Ga. contest.

Podge
11-20-2012, 10:45 AM
have you ever actually gotten your boxes back after awards?

just asking because I would have never even thought about that.


No, I never had to ask. But if I got a score of 20 points or more, less than what I would assume, I'd have to ask. I usually assume a 10 point swing from what I'd guess I should get. (which is a lot still)..

holysmokes
11-20-2012, 10:49 AM
All of this being said, we have all heard that when you thinks it's bad you do well and visa versa. I think a lot of it comes down to the luck of the table. I also think that presentation has a lot to do with your score. I mean if a judge has already given you a 7 in appearance it makes it easier to give lower scores on taste and texture.

I think this contest is well run with Randall and crew paying attention to cooks needs. We will definitely be back.

holysmokes
11-20-2012, 10:53 AM
Also, to be devils advocate getting straight 7's is pretty consistent.

Ford
11-20-2012, 11:10 AM
It should be a little easier for cooks when detailed scoring is rolled out. In FBA we see how a table scores on all 4 categories. Even see how a judge scores. Believe it or not there really are tables that average 2 points less than others sometimes. Luck of the draw if you hit that one. Also tables that score way high.

In larger contests that draw nationally ranked teams form 1000+ miles away the scores are usually higher and the quality of entries off the chart. A top 10 entry from a local contest may be middle of the pack in these contests.

Like Rub said, we learn to live with it. That or go crazy and lose a lot of friends.

Candy Sue
11-20-2012, 12:27 PM
Am I the only guy that thinks 7's making you almost DAL is a problem? With a three points system it's anybody's guess who will win.

It was bound to happen when the "start at 6" judging point went away.

My opinion only!

Candy Sue
11-20-2012, 12:36 PM
It should be a little easier for cooks when detailed scoring is rolled out. In FBA we see how a table scores on all 4 categories. Even see how a judge scores. Believe it or not there really are tables that average 2 points less than others sometimes. Luck of the draw if you hit that one. Also tables that score way high.

In larger contests that draw nationally ranked teams form 1000+ miles away the scores are usually higher and the quality of entries off the chart. A top 10 entry from a local contest may be middle of the pack in these contests.

Like Rub said, we learn to live with it. That or go crazy and lose a lot of friends.

The table-level results are coming soon with KCBScore. It's not going to help the 3 point scoring problem though. I have issues with mandating comment cards at a certain score too (like a 5 or below). All that does is gently direct judges to a 6-7-8-9 score.

My opinion only...

Pigs on Fire
11-20-2012, 12:55 PM
I have issues with mandating comment cards at a certain score too (like a 5 or below).

Yeah, It's so freakin' tough to get a pencil out and write "Presentation was great, but the ribs were tough/falling apart/spicy/bland"....

Almost as tough as working 45 hours in a week, preparing for a contest in the evenings, driving for 2-1/2 hours on a Friday after working til lunch on Friday, setting up your cooksite, prepping meat, doing the cooks meeting, prepping more, figuring out WTH you're gonna eat for supper, getting your smoker(s) started, seasoning, putting meat on, forgetting that you haven't eaten, then try to sleep for a few hours in the same seat you drove in earlier in the day.

Yep, writing a sentence or two while eating free food can't be expected...

gettinbasted
11-20-2012, 01:06 PM
The table-level results are coming soon with KCBScore. It's not going to help the 3 point scoring problem though. I have issues with mandating comment cards at a certain score too (like a 5 or below). All that does is gently direct judges to a 6-7-8-9 score.

My opinion only...

I wonder if a system like Kcbscore could be used to assign a standard deviation to judges based on past contests? You could then even out the tables by assigning a similar number of new, high tendency, and low tendency judges to each table.

Pigs on Fire
11-20-2012, 01:12 PM
The best thing that could happen would be for some sort of underground website to be formed for contest organizers.

Not only could they trade information about how better to run one, but talk amongst themselves about good or bad contest reps, troublesome teams and those judges that give out poor scores and/or refuse to fill out comment cards.

Kind of like the 'star rating' system that nearly every online review-type site uses. If a judge gets blackballed more than a few times, the organizer can throw that judge's application in the circular file. If that judge all of the sudden realizes he's not getting selected to eat free BBQ on Saturdays, he might wise up or move on to bothering someone else...


KCBS need not spend gobs of money trying to develop some sort of convoluted scoring system to analyze judges...let the organizers compile information from experience.

Lake Dogs
11-20-2012, 01:14 PM
Yeah, It's so freakin' tough to get a pencil out and write "Presentation was great, but the ribs were tough/falling apart/spicy/bland"....

Almost as tough as working 45 hours in a week, preparing for a contest in the evenings, driving for 2-1/2 hours on a Friday after working til lunch on Friday, setting up your cooksite, prepping meat, doing the cooks meeting, prepping more, figuring out WTH you're gonna eat for supper, getting your smoker(s) started, seasoning, putting meat on, forgetting that you haven't eaten, then try to sleep for a few hours in the same seat you drove in earlier in the day.

Yep, writing a sentence or two while eating free food can't be expected...

As having been on both sides of the table, I completely agree. I am actually of the opinion that they could be required for ALL scores, and I'm also of the opinion that they could be check lists (examples given in many other threads) so they go much faster than having someone spell out every detail an slow the process....

Florida Farmer
11-20-2012, 01:52 PM
After a couple of hundred or so contests you tend to build an immunity or at least a tolerance of that one judge on the table...albeit that judge has no idea just how much that ill placed score just costed that team...probably don't care noways. All the sanctioning bodies have appeal proceedures in line....but about all that can truthfully be appealed is the calculations....the judges ate all of the actual evidence. There's no way that anybody can honestly or truethfully say that their leftover ribs or chicken or whatever is EXACTLY the same as what they put in the box. They way I see it...I have told myself as well as others this before....at the end of a contest if you don't like the way the scoring went you only have two choices....be at the next one or stay at home.

Florida Farmer
11-20-2012, 01:53 PM
By the way...it was real nice meeting you Dave. Please keep doing what you do cause I really enjoy reading your reports.

Sawdustguy
11-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Yeah, It's so freakin' tough to get a pencil out and write "Presentation was great, but the ribs were tough/falling apart/spicy/bland"....

Almost as tough as working 45 hours in a week, preparing for a contest in the evenings, driving for 2-1/2 hours on a Friday after working til lunch on Friday, setting up your cooksite, prepping meat, doing the cooks meeting, prepping more, figuring out WTH you're gonna eat for supper, getting your smoker(s) started, seasoning, putting meat on, forgetting that you haven't eaten, then try to sleep for a few hours in the same seat you drove in earlier in the day.

Yep, writing a sentence or two while eating free food can't be expected...

If I were you I would hang up the old smoker because it doesn't sound like you enjoy competing anymore. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to compete. It's easy to attack the judges, but the fact is they are not required to fill out anything. You should be ranting at the KCBS, not the judges for not requiring the comment cards. Maybe it's a good thing that not a lot of judges read the forums. If I were a judge and read some of the crap spoken about them, I would never judge again.

hogzgonewild
11-20-2012, 02:34 PM
I wonder if a system like Kcbscore could be used to assign a standard deviation to judges based on past contests? You could then even out the tables by assigning a similar number of new, high tendency, and low tendency judges to each table.

I like this idea....Like a Golf Handicap for BBQ Judges!

Eggspert
11-20-2012, 04:19 PM
And there is the winning answer. I am a newbie this year and there were some things that I turned in that should have been a solid 3 and got 7's. The scoring scale is wide for a reason, I thought. I would rather get an honest 3 than a (lowball in the mind of a nice judge) 7, so I can know that it was REALLY bad and give me something to work on.
My husband judged a competition and gave some 5's and 6's for bad BBQ, (pork so tough you couldn't chew through it, brisket so dry you had to drink water to get it down, ribs just thrown in upside down and every which way). He actually got pulled aside 1/2 way through and told he was scoring too harsh by the rep. I agree that the scoring is getting too narrow to not make the competition a lot about luck, instead of actual skills.

Eggspert BBQ

gettinbasted
11-20-2012, 05:47 PM
I like this idea....Like a Golf Handicap for BBQ Judges!

Behold the power of statistics!

Sauced!
11-20-2012, 07:46 PM
The table-level results are coming soon with KCBScore. It's not going to help the 3 point scoring problem though. I have issues with mandating comment cards at a certain score too (like a 5 or below). All that does is gently direct judges to a 6-7-8-9 score.

My opinion only...

The same kcbscore that has been in the hopper for years? :confused: By the time this thing sees the light of day a lot of us will be retired from competition!

DawgPhan
11-20-2012, 08:14 PM
If I were you I would hang up the old smoker because it doesn't sound like you enjoy competing anymore. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to compete. It's easy to attack the judges, but the fact is they are not required to fill out anything. You should be ranting at the KCBS, not the judges for not requiring the comment cards. Maybe it's a good thing that not a lot of judges read the forums. If I were a judge and read some of the crap spoken about them, I would never judge again.


Is it really attacking the judges to suggest they take it seriously and put a little effort into it when the cooks spend so much effort and money to make them the food in the first place?

I dont know exactly what would work best, but there seems like there could be some improvement with the judging. I think providing information about judges to everyone could ease a lot of worries about the judges. sunshine and transparency and all.

EMTTLC
11-20-2012, 11:18 PM
I've cooked, judged, table captained, and worked the turn in table. I have experienced the low scores on turn ins that I felt were great, and have got calls when I felt my stuff wasn't fit to eat. I have done non sanctioned events where I feel the process was flawed and an error (or hanky panky) could easily have occurred. For there to be a mixed up box in a KCBS event would require numerous oversights, and from my experience is highly unlikely.

Now, to the issue at hand. When all six scores are close, we have to accept that our opinion is obviously different from the judges. The problem is when we have a couple of "Judge #6's" at a particular table. There is no process to evaluate our judges. We call someone a "Master Judge" when they judge 30 contest, regardless of how well they judge. We need to develop a method for evaluation!!! The mandating of the use of comment cards may be a good start. The table captains, reps and organizers should see these cards and see if the explanations for the given score is a valid point. From this forum, and others like it, I would like to see a push for our judges to lead discussion on comment cards prior to the start of judging and encourage other judges to fill them out on as many entries as they can. Personally, I think the BOD should mandate it. I realize that probably won't happen.

Judges also need more education than a four or five hour class. I have been amazed by the questions I am asked by judges when they find out that I also cook. There are things I take for granted that everyone knows about "q" that many judges don't know. The initial training probably needs to be done by video with ample time for discussion and interaction. This would assure that everyone is trained to the exact same standard. Cooking with a team needs to be mandated early in the process. I can't count the number of Master Judges that have said that it made a huge difference in their understanding of what they see in the box. One more thing and I'll shut up. More cooks need to judge. Go to the class, set aside a few week-ends a year to judge, and make a difference. We can help educate the judges, and most are very receptive to it.

Smokin Mike
11-20-2012, 11:47 PM
It was bound to happen when the "start at 6" judging point went away.

My opinion only!

Just curious, when was that implanted.

Thanks.

Mike

bmonkman
11-21-2012, 03:30 AM
I found this thread very informative. I judged at an event this fall in the ancillary categories and enjoyed the experience. I found it quite intimidating. I was thinking - "who am I to judge the work of these folks". I didn't get all that much instruction and was fortunate to have an experienced KCBS judge sitting beside who clued me in on a few things.

After reading this thread I'm glad to say following my intuition was the "right" choice. I judged using the whole numbering system. To me it seemed only the fair way. In my head everyone started at a 6 and went either up or down from there.

I plan to go to a KCBS judges class in the new year and start judging in the spring. The goal is to use this is as one tool to help educate me on the road to cooking in competitions. It will be interesting to learn what is taught in this area. I plan to bring this topic up in the class to see what the "official" line is.

I get the reality that whenever you have humans involved in anything that requires personal opinions/judgement you will get at best a wide range of thoughts and at worst thinking that approaches the irrational. However, that said, I think it would take me a while to build up a thick skin to this and I wouldn't be as calm about it as the OP appears to be.

boogiesnap
11-21-2012, 07:27 AM
just a way left field thought....the OP's topic seems to have arisen because there is no clear check and balance to be sure an errant scoring was correct.

what if....7 pieces were required, and if one judge at a table is more than 3 points off from the rest, the table captain samples the seventh piece to "verify". sort of a comment card work around.

dunno if that makes any sense though.

Sawdustguy
11-21-2012, 08:11 AM
Is it really attacking the judges to suggest they take it seriously and put a little effort into it when the cooks spend so much effort and money to make them the food in the first place?

I dont know exactly what would work best, but there seems like there could be some improvement with the judging. I think providing information about judges to everyone could ease a lot of worries about the judges. sunshine and transparency and all.

I don't think anyone denies that judging can be improved. I am just tired of all the threads beating up the judges. My point is that we compete knowing that the system is imperfect. If you get dealt a hand you don't like, deal with it. Everyone assumes the judges did something wrong when they don't do well. If thats true why do the Smoking Triggers, Lotta Bull, Jacks Old South etc. always seem to do well? Even if we had comment cards filled out religiously, someone is going to find something else about the judging to bitch about.

Balls Casten
11-21-2012, 08:14 AM
Golf handicaps have nothing to do with judging food. A handicap shows golfers potential against like and fixed courses. Judges are evaluating personal preferences of individual foods.
Unless a stricter implementation of judging criteria is mandated, any rating of judges is worthless. In other words “A brisket must be elastic to 1/2in in a pull test. No more No less”. I’ll also say that if that is done and the good cooks/teams have a fixed target to shoot at ... the rest of us won’t have a chance.

Balls Casten
11-21-2012, 08:20 AM
I don't think anyone denies that judging can be improved. I am just tired of all the threads beating up the judges.

Agreed, the "problem' is not the judges .. its the criteria we use to score.

nmayeux
11-21-2012, 08:25 AM
I don't think anyone denies that judging can be improved. I am just tired of all the threads beating up the judges. My point is that we compete knowing that the system is imperfect. If you get dealt a hand you don't like, deal with it. Everyone assumes the judges did something wrong when they don't do well. If thats true why do the Smoking Triggers, Lotta Bull, Jacks Old South etc. always seem to do well? Even if we had comment cards filled out religiously, someone is going to find something else about the judging to bitch about.Just to be clear, I wasn't assuming anything. I just wanted to know when results should be formally questioned. We all know that bitching doesn't accomplish anything, but just rolling over doesn't help either. By questioning with 'reasonable' cause lets the organizer know that there might be an issue, and also might give the competitor some piece of mind. If I put as much time, effort, and money into putting together an event like last weekend, I sure would rather someone bring their concerns to me, than to go and bash it behind my back.

This thread is in no way an attack on anyone. I just wanted insight into options and etequette when you do have a question. For the record, I had a great weekend, and will do it again and again for the foreseable future.

Candy Sue
11-21-2012, 08:40 AM
Agreed, the "problem' is not the judges .. its the criteria we use to score.

And what criteria is that? When I became a CBJ, what I heard was "judge the first bite the same as you judge the last bite in a category." Other than the pull test for brisket, the stick-to-the-roof-of-mouth test for pork, the one clean bite for ribs, there's no standard for judging. Besides how can you standardize something this subjective?

Balls Casten
11-21-2012, 08:47 AM
And what criteria is that? When I became a CBJ, what I heard was "judge the first bite the same as you judge the last bite in a category." Other than the pull test for brisket, the stick-to-the-roof-of-mouth test for pork, the one clean bite for ribs, there's no standard for judging. Besides how can you standardize something this subjective?

Exactly what I was saying our criteria is one's own opinion. We have no real criteria to score against.

Pigs on Fire
11-21-2012, 08:48 AM
Just to be clear, I wasn't assuming anything. I just wanted to know when results should be formally questioned. We all know that bitching doesn't accomplish anything, but just rolling over doesn't help either. By questioning with 'reasonable' cause lets the organizer know that there might be an issue, and also might give the competitor some piece of mind. If I put as much time, effort, and money into putting together an event like last weekend, I sure would rather someone bring their concerns to me, than to go and bash it behind my back.

This thread is in no way an attack on anyone. I just wanted insight into options and etequette when you do have a question. For the record, I had a great weekend, and will do it again and again for the foreseable future.


It probably should also be pointed out to Guy that at least one member of your team has judged more than 20 contests this year alone...

There's been very few contests this year that we've had the WTF!!! moments when we got the scoresheets...but when we did, it was flooring at times.

Candy Sue
11-21-2012, 08:56 AM
The same kcbscore that has been in the hopper for years? :confused: By the time this thing sees the light of day a lot of us will be retired from competition!

I just went back thru time on this. Not years, but months is more accurate. It's not appropriate for me to write a history on this, I'm too involved and I guarantee I have a bias! Work began on this particular scoring program September 2011, based on the prior work developed on the very expensive proprietary database model. I truly hope that it can be rolled out for the 2013 season.

CBQ
11-21-2012, 09:12 AM
If you don't like the 3 point system, come cook KCBS in the northeast where judges are not afraid to give you a 4. :becky:

Recently heard conversation in the judges tent: "This is really, really good, and it says on the score sheet that 7 is "better than average", so I'm giving it a 7."

The best food still wins, and you see the same set of the "usual suspects" winning, but the scores run about 20-30 points below midwestern and southern contests.

As far as the original post: poeple are right when they say just deal with it. It happens. You hit a bad table, and all bets are off. You can't really judge the quality of your food by a single contest's results. Hopefully KCBScore will offer some insight into whether or not we hit a bad table or just turned in bad food.


When we cook south of the Mason-Dixon line we get a 30 point bump in our scores.

fnbish
11-21-2012, 10:19 AM
I don't think anyone denies that judging can be improved. I am just tired of all the threads beating up the judges. My point is that we compete knowing that the system is imperfect. If you get dealt a hand you don't like, deal with it. Everyone assumes the judges did something wrong when they don't do well. If thats true why do the Smoking Triggers, Lotta Bull, Jacks Old South etc. always seem to do well? Even if we had comment cards filled out religiously, someone is going to find something else about the judging to bitch about.

So we should just sit with the status quo and not try and change anything because you think cooks will complain about something?

I've learned to take the bad with the good and not let one competition scores make me question judging as my scores have been pretty consistent this year for the level of cooking I can do at this point in my competition journey. Which leads me to completely agree with you that the top teams do consistently well so judging does have consistency. But the mindset that "cooks will always find something to complain about thus why bother change anything" doesn't help the system when there are cooks and judges who want to try and improve things.

Comment cards (the few I've gotten) have been very helpful to me and I've even had some scores turn around this year on categories I've had trouble with. This is because I got some great constructive feedback specifically with comment cards that had feedback/comments based on 7's. So the food was "above average", but the judges were awesome enough to let me know what small things they would have liked to make it better.

JS-TX
11-21-2012, 10:48 AM
I don't cook KCBS, so allow me to ask a dumb question. How many boxes does a judge typically score for 1 category?

bmonkman
11-21-2012, 11:09 AM
I don't cook KCBS, so allow me to ask a dumb question. How many boxes does a judge typically score for 1 category?

At the comp I was a table runner it worked out to be around 6 boxes per category. I believe the ratio is supposed to be one judge per team with 6 judges plus a table captain at each table.

JS-TX
11-21-2012, 11:52 AM
Only 6? Well if that's the case then comment cards should be a requirment, at least on all below average scores.. IMO. Even short simple comments would do, like too bland, too sweet, no smoke, too tough etc..

Ford
11-21-2012, 12:09 PM
Judging is subjective. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains. As long as humans are judges there will be variations in taste and texture. Some like it hot, some like it sweet, some want melt in your mouth, some want more chew. It is what it is and you can't tell people what they are supposed to like. Top cooks try to please the majority.

AND organizers control who judges. Sometimes contests include celebrity judges. It's up to the contest. All a cook can do is go out and try to hit their mark and hope for the best.

G'pa Herb
11-21-2012, 02:34 PM
I judge and table captain, sometimes at the same time...the suggestion that I have is to give more time for the judging, say 45 minutes between turn ins instead of the current 30 minutes. Judging always feels rushed. I believe given more time, judges could "potentially" do a better assessment.

I would suggest having a comment section directly on the score cards, say to the right of each teams scoring boxes...I believe judges would be more likely to write more comments, good and bad, if there was a spot directly on the score card instead of having to find and fill out another card...see feeling rushed above. It could even be detachable if it is deemed too much work for the Reps to transcribe comments into the scoring system.

I don't know how you all feel about judges getting to take home their leftovers, but from what I have experienced, I believe that this is a detriment to judging and creates more of a "how much can I score to take home" attitude for some judges. Not all judges cook BBQ, so judging gives them the opportunity to "score" some of the best BBQ. My bet would be that if each team was given a 5th annonymous box, that they would be more than happy to fill them up for judges to take home.

Just my $.02 opinions, and you know the old saying about opinions. Yes I am new, and this is my first post on the forum. I have been reading the forum for quite a while, and this topic pushed me to sign up. Troubling issues fall on deaf ears without also providing viable solutions at the same time.

Sawdustguy
11-21-2012, 11:38 PM
[QUOTE=fnbish;2277365]So we should just sit with the status quo and not try and change anything because you think cooks will complain about something?

Comment cards (the few I've gotten) have been very helpful to me and I've even had some scores turn around this year on categories I've had trouble with. This is because I got some great constructive feedback specifically with comment cards that had feedback/comments based on 7's. So the food was "above average", but the judges were awesome enough to let me know what small things they would have liked to make it

Please do not put words in my mouth. My post was in response to an earlier post where the poster was complaining about judges being too lazy to fill out comment cards when he spent lots of money and time. I never suggested that things should be status quo. I just don't think comment cards are going to make the scores any different. All comment cards will tell you is why someone thinks your turn was good or bad. Cooks will still take issue with the score even if they know why they got that score from the comment card. I have never received a comment card that was useful. I don"t know what the answer is but I do know that having comment cards filled out is not going to improve judging.

Brauma
11-22-2012, 08:18 AM
Noah, we did a comp earlier this year with a lot of new judges. We found out later that it had way more new judges than the norm. Our scores were all over the board. We had something a 999565 in several categories.

But here's the thing: a top team won the event. Why didn't they get a bad table like us? Luck? Or did half of our box suck for real?

I really shook my head after that event and it made me wonder why I'm doing this. Like you said, a lot of money goes into one of these weekends.

Brauma
11-22-2012, 08:28 AM
Concerning comment cards, we have never received a comment card that was useful. Case in point, we got a 1st place Brisket this year in July. The very next comp we did the exact same thing in brisket: same grade of beef, same rub, same sauce, same everything. At that next comp we scored middle of the pack and got a comment card that read, "your sauce on the brisket tasted like super market gravy". I wanted to find that judge and show him our brisket trophy from 3 weeks ago.

Again, it made me shake my head and ask myself why I keep doing this. But here I am prepping for next season!!!

The best input I get is not from comment cards but from talking to judges (preferably experienced judges) after judging and before awards. They will tell you things like what was scored down at their table and why, and what they like to see and taste.

fnbish
11-22-2012, 09:36 AM
. Cooks will still take issue with the score even if they know why they got that score from the comment card. I have never received a comment card that was useful. I don"t know what the answer is but I do know that having comment cards filled out is not going to improve judging.

I didn't mean to put words in you mouth sorry, but seems to be ok for you to let us all know how every single cook will feel and that cooks still take issue with the scores they received regardless. I don't feel that way so please don't speak for me. Because if I felt that way I would never improve.

I agree that filling out cards might not improve judging. That isn't my/the point. What comment cards do is reflect why the score was given. Therefore it can help the cooks to figure out how to improve. I understand there are many out there that haven't gotten many useful comment cards, but I have and the helped improve my end product.

grilla
11-22-2012, 02:11 PM
I have also noticed the rule of no box hitting the same table twice . Is this necessarily a good thing to let a box sit and get cold so it doesn't hit a certain table?

Ford
11-22-2012, 02:25 PM
Comment cards. If you get 999995 and get a card that says too sweet are you going to change or say that's a jerk I got 5 9's and that's what I need. If only one judge is low the comments are useless. If you get 3 or more low scores then comments may be helpful if they all say the same thong. You'd do far better by asking an experienced team to taste and give their honest opinion. Most of us will do just that if you ask Friday night. If you ask me I'll say sure but I'll be honest so you might not like it. Don't take my comments as criticism of you but as a way to improve. It took 7 years for my first grand and 2 or 3 till my first blue ribbon. It takes time and lots of practice.

The Virginian
11-23-2012, 11:24 AM
The only time I ever questioned a score was when we recieved a 2 for taste from one judge, and 8s and 9s from the rest. It was a data entry error, and the result moved us from 3rd to 1st place in brisket. Other than that sort of head scratching outlier, I would never officially question a score. Too many other things affecting scores.

Drh7003
11-24-2012, 06:29 AM
After reading this thread, I wasn't sure I wanted to post, but I will offer my thoughts.
I am a new KCBS judge, not many KCBS competitions under my belt, but I have judged food prior to doing BBQ. We were told at our KCBS class that cooking teams spend a lot of money to enter these contests, between entry fees, meat and other costs and we should give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. Of course, the judging scale is 1-9, so why shouldn't 6 or 7, be an average score?
Judges are told to judge each sample by its own merits, and not compare two different samples until AFTER they are scored.
So if I were to view Sample 1 and I say WOW that looks great...I want to eat that and go 9 on that appearance, taste sample 1 and it was average, and go 7 or 6 on that, and it was tough and rubbery and go 5.
In the end, the total would average to a 7 or 6...(am I correct here?) So, one element of the sample screws the total score.(in the computer)

When the smoke clears, and all the samples are judged and the sheets leave the table, conversation starts between judges and you hear some interesting things. I have heard several times references to the cost and how teams deserve at least a 7 for paying out what it costs to compete.
IMHO, I believe that competition teams deserve an Honest score, from honest people who love BBQ and want to do an honest evaluation.

If I applied the same logic to what I compete in, just because I showed up I should be granted a high score without ever getting my gear out, just because I spent a couple K on equipment. For me, I want to be judge honestly for my skill, not for showing up.

And brethren, this is only my opinion. I do think that what the KCBS offers in the way of a judging class and judging standards to be lacking.

Funtimebbq
11-24-2012, 08:31 AM
I am a competitor who started out as a judge and am sick of reps and other judges worrying or caring about how much it costs to compete in contests. What we spend on a contest should have no influence on how a judge should score. I will go so far as to say KCBS needs to tell reps to stop referencing costs when giving instructions to judges. We spend whatever amount of money on a contest because we choose to, not because we expect a rep to tell judges about how much we spend. I don't expect to receive a good score based on how much money I've spent, but rather on how my food tastes and looks.

Having said that, I sent an email to our KCBS BoDs back in April about a couple of reps telling judges they needed to score 8s and 9s with an occasional 7 at a contest. My first email went unanswered. The second recieved a response more concerned about my grammer mistakes and never responded to the actions of the reps. I will share these with anyone who sends a PM if interested.
Benny

Big Poppa
11-24-2012, 09:18 AM
Im staying away from most of this...BUT I cant wait for the new scoring system....and Because of the interpretations of judging and subjective nature you have to cook a bunch of contests to work it out or just let it go.

route66
11-24-2012, 06:48 PM
Do you know when the new scoring system might be in place?

CivilWarBBQ
11-25-2012, 12:23 AM
Concerning comment cards, we have never received a comment card that was useful. Case in point, we got a 1st place Brisket this year in July. The very next comp we did the exact same thing in brisket: same grade of beef, same rub, same sauce, same everything. At that next comp we scored middle of the pack and got a comment card that read, "your sauce on the brisket tasted like super market gravy". I wanted to find that judge and show him our brisket trophy from 3 weeks ago.

Again, it made me shake my head and ask myself why I keep doing this. But here I am prepping for next season!!!

The best input I get is not from comment cards but from talking to judges (preferably experienced judges) after judging and before awards. They will tell you things like what was scored down at their table and why, and what they like to see and taste.

Why did you not find this useful? The judge told you he didn't like the way you sauced your entry. Personally, I would much rather get such a comment than an 8-5-8 score with no explanation. At least you know why you received the low score, and the judge did tell you what their perception was, rather than conjecture on what you did. It's the comments that do this that I don't like, i.e. "you cooked it too long", "can taste your lighter fluid", etc.

I appreciate even the off-the-wall comments though. At least then I know I had a bad judge, rather than an undercooked piece of chicken or some other issue that might only affect a single judge's score.

sdbbq1234
11-25-2012, 08:11 AM
Y'all just haven't figured it out yet, any time you think you nailed it you should expect crap scores. Conversely when you turn in crap look for that top score, it's something in the stars me thinks.
Seriously though, I'm thinking the "problem" is the 2 kinds of judges. one judge uses 7,8,9's pretty much exclusively. They think if they give a 7 the poor cook team will not win and they feel bad after being instructed by the Rep to "give the team the benefit" because they've spent so much money.
Then there's the other kind of judge that sores as they were taught, each entry has the potential to be scored 2 thru 9, and is very aware that a score of 6 is average and there is plenty of average out there.
So, in my opinion until all KCBS judges get off this 7,8,9 only mentality, you cooks are going to continue to be amazed and amused...
Ed


+1.

I have seen judges that think if something wasn't that good, well then give it a 7. Some of the things we turned in were NOT even a 6, but we ended up getting a few 7s, and 8s and 9s.

If I were scoring my entry, it would have been 5 or 6.

I also think that at the judges meeting the morning before the contest, we hear the reps talk about giving low scores and that the judge "should" fill out a comment card. Of the contests I have judged at, for ever 3 comment cards I fill out, there were maybe 1 other card filled out at the table. And some of the entries were down right bad. The entire table agreed, but nobody else filled out a comment card; instead, they gave it a 6-7.

wallace

Sawdustguy
11-26-2012, 08:02 AM
I didn't mean to put words in you mouth sorry, but seems to be ok for you to let us all know how every single cook will feel and that cooks still take issue with the scores they received regardless. I don't feel that way so please don't speak for me. Because if I felt that way I would never improve.

I agree that filling out cards might not improve judging. That isn't my/the point. What comment cards do is reflect why the score was given. Therefore it can help the cooks to figure out how to improve. I understand there are many out there that haven't gotten many useful comment cards, but I have and the helped improve my end product.

Thats fine, you are the exception. I think it's human nature to want to blame someone other than one's self when things do not go as planned. Some are more vocal about it than others claiming the judges don't know good BBQ. Some keep it to themselves. As for me, it's out of my control. I do the best I can and let the cards fall where they may. I don't let bad results ruin my weekend. Do I wish I could have done better, of course but that is where I end it. Do I think the judging could be better, of course but openly criticizing the judges or your results makes it look like you are sour grapes so I don't.