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View Full Version : Marking / Sculpting of entries?


Slamdunkpro
10-22-2012, 03:17 PM
Had a box come to our table that had 6 of the following: a medallion of money muscle with a ball of pulled pork perched on top topped by a shredded piece of a tube muscle. At first we though the ball in the middle was stuffing so we called the KCBS Rep over. They took the box, came back in a couple of minutes and told us that the ball wasn't stuffing yet they were DQ'ing the team for marking. Quite a bit of discussion ensued at the table after all the entries were judged as to whether this was a marked box or just very creative.

How do you define marking / sculpting

sdbbq1234
10-22-2012, 04:21 PM
I say no. To be honest, it almost sounds like our box, but then we scored pretty dog-gone low anyway.

The whole marking / sculpting is too subjective IMO anyway the way the rules are written and presented.

I have seen many boxes that were very close to what you describe and did not think any different. Just the team being creative. No one else at the tables I have judged thought different as well.

Maybe the whole marking / sculpting idea should have more defined wording. I think the team got a bum deal.

If I turn in a box with the bottom layered with chopped pork (to keep the box warm) and then money muscle and pulled pork on top, with parsley round the edge and maybe in between the pieces, is that legal?

The weight of the box alone could give away who it came from. But yet, I have seen boxes like this and nobody questions even with Master CBJ at the table.

wallace

landarc
10-22-2012, 05:01 PM
It seems to me that it was not marked. Now, almost all chicken and rib turnins are sculpted already, and pork is often arranged, not sure if that means sculpted or not. I say it should have been allowed.

early mornin' smokin'
10-22-2012, 05:14 PM
so let's say i use a 2 inch round metal cookie cutter to keep my pulled pork in nice little circles. IT's not technically "marking or Sculpting" but it could be argued. To me it's a very vague rule that needs to be further clarified. Marking each piece of pork with a filet knife with the letter's EMS....now that's marking.

hogzillas
10-22-2012, 05:50 PM
I personally think that it needs to be defined more in some way but then you get in the area of over regulation. The was one entry a few years ago that came across my table that the rep said wasn't sculpturing but it had to be awfully close. The pork box was made up in the form of rings like a bullseye target. While it's creative it was very close to me as being marking/sculpturing but I was a new judge at the time so maybe I overreacted.

As to your entry, I don't feel that it was as in my judges class they had a pork box where they put 6 scoops of pulled pork & I would consider your box something along those lines. It definitely pushes the boundries so until they define them better there'll be test cases & then once they set them someone I'm sure will push them out further & further.

boogiesnap
10-22-2012, 06:01 PM
i'd have to reread, but i thought the rule was written as sculpting or marking in a manner to identify the team it came from.

so, no.

however, maybe the rep, table captain, etc. had seen the box before and knew, thus a kneejerk, but that's not the cooks fault.

i think there's a good number of unique presentations that one may recognize coming across a table. hell, i've posted my boxes here, so judges could certaibly identify me.

BBQchef33
10-22-2012, 06:27 PM
i voted no.


9) Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a
way to make it identifiable. Rosettes of meat slices are not
allowed. Violations of this rule will be scored a one (1) on all
criteria by all six judges.

15) The container shall not be marked in any way so as to
make the container unique or identifiable. Aluminum foil,
toothpicks, skewers, foreign material, and/or stuffing are
prohibited in the container. Marked entries or containers with
the above listed material will receive a one (1) in all criteria
from all Judges.


i cant see how a unique presentations is sculpting. There are plenty of 'signature' presentations out there. To DQ what you described is akin to DQ'in chicken lollipops. If that were the case, one can argue that turning in a box consistently and specifically with "12 Burnt ends" would be sculpting... and lets see how that one sticks.

landarc
10-22-2012, 06:37 PM
I have always felt that all the trimming, scraping etc...of chicken is nuts and over the top. Let chicken be chicken.

Theresa B
10-22-2012, 07:55 PM
Mike- thanks for bringing this up. I thought it was freakin' genius! It was a beautiful box. You know from our discussions that I disagreed when this happened.

Muzzlebrake
10-22-2012, 08:01 PM
I can see how based on your description that the box could be deemed to have been "presented in a way to make it identifiable" and how the meat was determined to be sculpted.

so let's say i use a 2 inch round metal cookie cutter to keep my pulled pork in nice little circles. IT's not technically "marking or Sculpting" but it could be argued.

It's not? I would think that is exactly what sculpting is.

Rub
10-22-2012, 08:23 PM
No. Could you ID the team turning it in by looking at the box? If not then it's not marking IMO. Did they sculpt little pigs or similar? If not then it's not sculpting. Based on the OP only, it doesn't sound like it met the criteria IMO. Of course I'm not a rep so take it FWIW.

bmanMA
10-22-2012, 08:46 PM
Problem is that a lot of teams are posting pictures of their boxes. When these teams have a unique presentation then it becomes easier to identify a given team's submission, especially in areas of the country where there's a lot of judge overlap between contests.

cds9333
10-22-2012, 08:47 PM
While having only judged two comps and have been a cbj since August, in our class it was made pretty clear that sculpting would be obvious, not just unique presentation. Examples given were shaping into identifiable objects such as a horse, pig, other animal. Basic shapes were said to be okay. The most extreme example given was someone using a variety of sauces in different colors to "paint" a sunset of sauce on the meat.

boogiesnap
10-22-2012, 08:52 PM
While having only judged two comps and have been a cbj since August, in our class it was made pretty clear that sculpting would be obvious, not just unique presentation. Examples given were shaping into identifiable objects such as a horse, pig, other animal. Basic shapes were said to be okay. The most extreme example given was someone using a variety of sauces in different colors to "paint" a sunset of sauce on the meat.

i don't see a problem with a sunset either unless the team is "sunset BBQ".

DawgPhan
10-22-2012, 09:34 PM
without a picture, I am going to trust the reps on this one.

watg?
10-23-2012, 06:18 AM
I vote no on the marking issue. It is my position, the box was done for as soon as it was questioned and removed. I believe when a box leaves the table and or and is taken back to the cook for explanation, even if the Rep eventually determines the submission is legal, it will never score well, lets call it "tainted." (just my opinion) Although, in this case, a low score would have been better than no score or DQ.

Outnumbered
10-23-2012, 06:28 AM
I think it would probably count as a marking under the strictest interpretation of the KCBS rules. However, this begs the question of why we even have a presentation score anyway?

roksmith
10-23-2012, 06:54 AM
We don't. It's an appearance score.

Outnumbered
10-23-2012, 07:09 AM
roksmith, you're right. But that's semantics for most judges. When I'm told by a judge they score down if you have a row of 4 ribs on top of another four ribs because it's obvious to them "you're trying to hide something," it begs the question if it's presentation or appearance.

And this is not a bitching about the judges statement, it's a reality. I actually heard that from another judge when I was judging a contest.

The Cosmic Pig
10-23-2012, 07:46 AM
I would have been totally PO'ed had I been DQ'ed for this because I almost did that exact same thing once and asked a rep beforehand if it was okay and they answered "yes." My wife gave me the idea after I asked her to come up with an appealing presentation. I can't remember if it was KCBS or FBA, though.

Muzzlebrake
10-23-2012, 07:47 AM
I vote no on the marking issue. It is my position, the box was done for as soon as it was questioned and removed. I believe when a box leaves the table and or and is taken back to the cook for explanation, even if the Rep eventually determines the submission is legal, it will never score well, lets call it "tainted." (just my opinion) Although, in this case, a low score would have been better than no score or DQ.

I would tend to agree with what you're saying, I can see how that might happen.
However in this case, I would think that if you present your pork in a way that causes the judges to mistake it for stuffing, you aren't going to score well anyway.

RibnOneOff
10-23-2012, 07:54 AM
I vote just talk to them after and let them know they were close to the edge. I remember during the class they sent out a box with the pulled presented as six perfectly round scoops. The test was if it was "sculpted" or not. The answer was no as it was standard practice for a vendor to use an ice cream scoop to serve consistent portions, so nothing to DQ for. He was making the point that just because you think it is unique that it does not mean anyone can know who that Chef was. Any box can be identified if the judge knows what to look for/expect from a team. Any judge who would know what their buddy would use for an arrangement needs to be upstanding enough to still judge it fairly even if he is sure who turned it in.

roksmith
10-23-2012, 08:01 AM
I don't disagree with you Outnumbered, I was pointing out, ineffectively I suppose, that there is a difference between appearance and presentation. Scoring a presentation has no place on KCBS judging. It's funny... I just read an article in the BullSheet from a judge.. referring to the presentation score. It strikes a nerve every time I see that.
I think it comes from judges trying too hard to vary their scoring from entry to entry and there is no reason for it. Nitpicking and scoring one entry down because they didn't like the way it was positioned in the box when we/they are supposed to be judging the appearance of the bbq.
Judges trying to figure out why a team did one thing as opposed to another also falls in there I suppose. Why no brisket slices? Why only slices? Why only pulled pork? Why no pulled pork? Why ribs stacked instead of all laid out like a slab?
None of that even belongs in the mind of a judge.. but's sometimes it is.
Perhaps the only way to remove the variables is to tighten the rules on what goes in a box and how it's laid out. I'm not in favor of that, but if you want to lessen the amount of interpretation by the judges.. making a rule something like:
Brisket boxes must contain exactly 6 1/4 inch thick slices and nothing else.
or
Chicken must be 6 bone-in thighs only.
or
Ribs must be 6 bones of St. Louis cut spares from the same rack arranged like a single slab
or
Pork boxed must contain slices, pulled, and chunks arranged ...bla bla bla

Take the presentation and judges second guessing out of the equation.


Not suggesting we do that.. but it would remove some questions and second guessing.

The Cosmic Pig
10-23-2012, 08:04 AM
Any box can be identified if the judge knows what to look for/expect from a team.

Bingo! Nuff said!

ique
10-23-2012, 08:39 AM
Not a fan of the rule, but I voted yes. Sounds like sculpting to me.

fnbish
10-23-2012, 09:04 AM
The reps in my area have said in the cooks meetings if you are going to try something new, thinking outside the box, or doing unique presentation ask them beforehand if it would be ok. Then you are covered.

Now I say that knowing it isn't a solution to the problem and this discussion on the subjectivity of appearance, but it will cover your arse for that particular competition..........theoretically of course :razz:.

boogiesnap
10-23-2012, 09:12 AM
is this sculpting? marking? if i boxed it like this every time?

71829

Ford
10-23-2012, 10:06 AM
This was discussed by kcbs a few years ago. A simple round bowl can be used to mold pulled pork. A fancy pattern mold can not be used. Think it was added to the rep advisories. I know it generated a lot of discussion. Also know at one time rod was using a bowl in his class but with no pattern.

altomari8868
10-23-2012, 10:37 AM
I agree with Rub, no.... KCBS are the ones that allow putting greens... These judges look for the first chance to mark down or call something flawed. They should be judging what is presented and the taste. I think some teams go a little crazy but unless they can tell who it is or if it is so crazy, like a design, it should be allowed. IMO.

Icekub
10-23-2012, 10:43 AM
We did the volcano pulled pork in Nelsonville (mound of pulled pork and bark chunks building the volcano) Glad it wasn't considered under this rule!

dhuffjr
10-23-2012, 12:03 PM
is this sculpting? marking? if i boxed it like this every time?

71829
Looks to me like your trying to hide something on the end of that center rib bone :becky:

Jorge
10-23-2012, 12:25 PM
Had a box come to our table that had 6 of the following: a medallion of money muscle with a ball of pulled pork perched on top topped by a shredded piece of a tube muscle. At first we though the ball in the middle was stuffing so we called the KCBS Rep over. They took the box, came back in a couple of minutes and told us that the ball wasn't stuffing yet they were DQ'ing the team for marking. Quite a bit of discussion ensued at the table after all the entries were judged as to whether this was a marked box or just very creative.

How do you define marking / sculpting

It's hard to say, since I can't see it. If the judges at the table had enough of a concern that a Rep was summoned, that's an indicator that team was at least pushing the edge of the envelope.

If a piece of pork appears to a judge or judges, to be stuffed I can understand the concerns. The way the entry was presented could be considered marking as well.

Potter Stewart would have been suited to judge BBQ.

QN
10-23-2012, 02:10 PM
Actual rep advisory regarding molding pork into a scoop, ball, or cup;
4.22 Molding of Pork Entries
Question: For sanitary purposes, cooks are allowed to use an ice cream scoop for their pork presentation. Can they use a plastic cup as the utensil to form their entry for turn in?

Opinion:
Yes. This is not considered marking.
Approved by KCBS Board of Directors, May 12, 2009

Jacked UP BBQ
10-23-2012, 02:11 PM
I have heard from reps that they ask the judges if they know whos box it is, if they dont, its not sculpting.

Slamdunkpro
10-23-2012, 04:43 PM
It's hard to say, since I can't see it. If the judges at the table had enough of a concern that a Rep was summoned, that's an indicator that team was at least pushing the edge of the envelope.

If a piece of pork appears to a judge or judges, to be stuffed I can understand the concerns. The way the entry was presented could be considered marking as well.

Potter Stewart would have been suited to judge BBQ.
I was the table captain and I called the rep because the ball appeared to be stuffing (after judging for appearance so that if I was wrong the team didn't suffer). Nothing was said by anyone at the table questioning if it was marking or sculpting. The reps came back with the marking DQ all on their own.

boogiesnap
10-23-2012, 06:45 PM
I was the table captain and I called the rep because the ball appeared to be stuffing (after judging for appearance so that if I was wrong the team didn't suffer). Nothing was said by anyone at the table questioning if it was marking or sculpting. The reps came back with the marking DQ all on their own.

if six judges didn't see an issue...

Juggy D Beerman
10-24-2012, 08:35 AM
We did the volcano pulled pork in Nelsonville (mound of pulled pork and bark chunks building the volcano) Glad it wasn't considered under this rule!

At the American Royal back in 1999, our team did an arrangement very similar to the one you described. Our presentation was a volcano made of pulled pork with bark chunks on the side. My teammate pushed the envelope even further though. He filled the volcano's crater with sauce and had streaks of sauce running down the outer sides of the volcano.

Since I had pulled the night shift, I was asleep when this box was assembled. Two weeks after the contest, I received our scores in the mail. Our pork finished DAL with a score of 20! I contacted my teammate about the entry and his description of it is what I have written.

I never did find out if we were DQed because of marking/sculpting or pooling of sauce. Who knows, it may have been all of the above. All I know is we have never submitted another pork entry like that one.......

Lager,

Juggy

MikeSns
10-25-2012, 07:58 AM
hey guys here is the box that we made that got DQ'ed. This is my first post hope the pic turns up.

sdbbq1234
10-25-2012, 08:19 AM
You got shafted.

wallace

boogiesnap
10-25-2012, 08:52 AM
sorry about the DQ. what's your team name?

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
10-25-2012, 09:05 AM
I dont see it as marking....thanks for posting a pic of the box..

dhuffjr
10-25-2012, 09:14 AM
Looks like an imaginative box to me.

sdbbq1234
10-25-2012, 09:21 AM
Looks like an imaginative box to me.

+1.

As a judge, this box makes it very easy to grab 1 pile and have all the meat that the team wanted me to try in one grab.

To me, this looks a great idea also as a team.

wallace

bigabyte
10-25-2012, 09:26 AM
I fail to see how that is marking. Just chiming in with my opinion.

MikeSns
10-25-2012, 10:32 AM
Thanks everyone, Team name is Sweet-N-Sassy. We talked for days as to how the box was to be layed out, spent over an hour shoving little green bits of parsley (as many of us do)in a box. Never thinking that we were doing something that would get us dq'ed. Lesson learned on making sure that all meat can be identifiable.

DawgPhan
10-25-2012, 10:35 AM
Thanks everyone, Team name is Sweet-N-Sassy. We talked for days as to how the box was to be layed out, spent over an hour shoving little green bits of parsley (as many of us do)in a box. Never thinking that we were doing something that would get us dq'ed. Lesson learned on making sure that all meat can be identifiable.


I dont think that is the lesson here.

boogiesnap
10-25-2012, 10:38 AM
i would have to agree...no marking. maybe if your team name was "sushi BBQ".

i would also agree that is a very creative box. all the different parts in one easy serving. very crafty.

bigabyte
10-25-2012, 10:38 AM
I agree with DawgPhan, the problem wasn't being clearly identifiable. The reps came back saying it was pulled pork, which is perfectly legal. The problem was that they declared your box setup as marking, which I still don't see.

Now, granted, the reps never would have looked at the box had the judges and table captain not had questions about whether the balls were stuffing or pulled pork...so from that perspective, had the balls looked more like pulled pork, odds are good you would not have been DQ'ed based on what the table captain has said.

These things are bound to happen now and then, and they really suck. Sorry it happened to you. Some of these things are subjective calls, and sometimes people make a call that most others disagree with.

I do think in this case however, it can serve as a good learning experience for all. Hopefully to better define what "marking" really is.

Gadragonfly
10-25-2012, 11:59 AM
Now, granted, the reps never would have looked at the box had the judges and table captain not had questions about whether the balls were stuffing or pulled pork...

I don't understand why the box had to go to the reps even if they did question the balls. If they were unsure they could have verified it when the first sample was taken. Why was the rep called before the sample was taken from the box?:noidea:

DawgPhan
10-25-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't understand why the box had to go to the reps even if they did question the balls. If they were unsure they could have verified it when the first sample was taken. Why was the rep called before the sample was taken from the box?:noidea:

My guess is that the call was made before anyone removed a sample.

I dont think that the box should have been nailed for marking, but I dont think it is a particularly good looking box either. The lesson is next time you want to get creative with the box arrangement, run it by a rep on friday or saturday. they will give you an answer and they will also know should anyone ask about it in the tent.

Uncle Buds BBQ
10-25-2012, 01:13 PM
I would have given it a "legal" 9.

DawgPhan
10-25-2012, 02:36 PM
I would have given it a "legal" 9.


if that is a 9, our boxes should get 12's.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-25-2012, 03:02 PM
looks legal to me

Theresa B
10-25-2012, 06:53 PM
SnS- I was at the table- I loved it and scored it very high. There was no doubt in my mind that the contents were legal, it didn't look like stuffing to me at all.

boogiesnap
10-25-2012, 07:15 PM
SnS- I was at the table- I loved it and scored it very high. There was no doubt in my mind that the contents were legal, it didn't look like stuffing to me at all.

thank you, brings a good point to light.

STUFFING would be a foreign object. NOT marking or sculpting.

huminie
10-25-2012, 09:41 PM
The KCBS judging class specifically calls out that it is perfectly acceptable to have individual portions of meat for each judge, like what is being done here.

This does not appear to be marking based on my training.

Dr_KY
10-26-2012, 04:21 AM
Appears as thought this sort of arrangement would work well in another sort of BBQ competition away from the norm of big meat, big cookers , run what ya brung legacy of BBQ.
I'm confidant that had this of been plated on a tile or gleaming white plate with micro vegetables at a gastro foodie festival sort of event outside of the US/ Canada it would have done very well as a trendy take on American BBQ.