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fnbish
10-21-2012, 08:18 PM
Thought I would share this as I got a comment card today. Got it on my brisket. It was the first time I ever turned in only burnt ends. I had enough to make the box look full and I thought they were great. Since I've heard of teams getting good calls on burnt ends I figured why not give it a try and go a little rogue :loco::becky:.

I have heard so many times now during the cook's meeting from KCBS reps that they are working hard on telling the judges to not have pre conceived notions about what may not have made it into the box and "judge what is presented".

Now the brisket score was not great. 20/25 teams. But seems as this judge only knew how to judge tenderness from a "slice". Perhaps it was a new judge since they referred to the burnt ends as a "small cube".

Now at the end of the day it wasn't a big deal. I am the first one to admit brisket is my worst category :icon_blush:, though I did think the burnt ends were good. Anyways, here is the card :grin:.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/IMG2028.jpg

EMTTLC
10-21-2012, 09:32 PM
I had great burnt ends in Cleveland and a not so good flat. I almost turned in 16 burnt ends but was afraid I'd end up with an experience just like you had. I've also come close to turning in two beautiful and tender sliced chicken breasts instead of thighs, once again, fear of judges not judging as presented.

gettinbasted
10-21-2012, 09:32 PM
There is the way it is supposed to be and the way that it is in reality. More times than not you will get dinged by at least one judge if you turn in something other than what is expected.

82's BBQ
10-21-2012, 10:22 PM
I was just thinking yesterday about what would happen if I turned in a box of only burnt ends.

bigabyte
10-21-2012, 10:40 PM
Just a thought, but pork has had guidelines for judging tenderness (mushy) by using your tongue and the roof of your mouth. No such guidelines for brisket though.

I think you got screwed, I can judge tenderness of brisket outside of the pull test from experience cooking and eating them. That's something no amount of CBJ training can ever cover. That said, not sure how anyone without that experience can judge it if the only guideline they have ever known is the pull test. Outside of common sense of course (which is always in short supply no matter what you do).

Rookie'48
10-22-2012, 12:52 AM
It is stressed on the CD that's played at every judges meeting that you're not supposed to judge for what you like,but judge according to KCBS standards. Every CBJ class is taught that you judge "as presented by the cook". Personally, if you give me a box full of some great burnt ends your scores (from me) are going to show a lot of 8s or 9s, but that's just me :wink:.

FMJ
10-22-2012, 01:07 AM
several judges look for cooked more than 1 way as an indicater of better skils.. ie pulled , chopped, & sliced pork. No comperative judging -- but something has to set the bar & can't go back & change a score

CaptTable
10-22-2012, 08:31 AM
Hopefully, that judge was spoken to afterwards. We try to stress that the CD says "one way fo determine tenderness (on brisket) is the pull test". ONE WAY, not the ONLY way.

rookiedad
10-22-2012, 08:46 AM
i always thought the pull test was to detirmine underdone or overdoneand as you can have a very tender bisket that would fall apart and fail the pull test maybe they should reconsider that as a way of judging tenderness. to me the flat and the point cook like the breast and the thigh of the chicken respectivly. judges have no need to see breast meat when judging thighs and as more and more competitors see that dry flat slices might be pulling down the scores on juicy burnt ends i think you will see less and less of it.

timzcardz
10-22-2012, 08:48 AM
WTF?

The category is "Brisket," not "Sliced Brisket."

Our best placement (4th) in brisket came from truning in only burnt ends. They were THAT good, and the flat was so-so. I looked at is "Why would I want to eat those slices when I could have these burnt ends?"

At a subsequent competition, I heard a comment made by a judge, about our previous competition, and I believe most likely judged our burnt ends. The comment made was that "if they only turned in burnt ends can you imagine how bad the flat must have been?" Huh?

dhuffjr
10-22-2012, 09:24 AM
"if they only turned in burnt ends can you imagine how bad the flat must have been?"
Which totally discounts the possibility that maybe you dropped it and ends was your only choice.

The reps should have talked to the judge who submitted that comment card IMHO.

jmoney7269
10-22-2012, 09:26 AM
At IBCA and lonestar cooks that I have cooked and judged at, and we don't even get to touch the meat. If you can cut a large enough peice, which most of the time you can on brisket, it's all good. IMO if you only had burnt ends in the box, that would throw a flag in my head, "flat was way overcooked and this is all he could salvage"

Corky
10-22-2012, 09:27 AM
That judge does have nice handwriting. If I wrote it no one would have any idea what I said. :shocked:

arrowhead
10-22-2012, 09:46 AM
i'm a judge, that's embarrassing.

timzcardz
10-22-2012, 09:52 AM
"if they only turned in burnt ends can you imagine how bad the flat must have been?"
Which totally discounts the possibility that maybe you dropped it and ends was your only choice.

The reps should have talked to the judge who submitted that comment card IMHO.

It wasn't a comment card. It was stated in the course of a conversation by the judge to one of my team members at a competition two weeks later. The judge didn't know that we were the ones that had turned in only burnt ends.

Pigs on Fire
10-22-2012, 10:02 AM
This is where great Reps shine.

At your next-to-last contest (Rome and I can't imagine Duluth being different), the KCBS Reps clearly stated that they ask the judges to judge what is in the box...and I believe he went over brisket specifically.

Taking chances is part of the game. I've heard of teams getting 1st, 2nd and 3rd place calls with pulled/chopped brisket only.

fnbish
10-22-2012, 10:06 AM
At IBCA and lonestar cooks that I have cooked and judged at, and we don't even get to touch the meat. If you can cut a large enough peice, which most of the time you can on brisket, it's all good. IMO if you only had burnt ends in the box, that would throw a flag in my head, "flat was way overcooked and this is all he could salvage"

I do totally get that point. But for KCBS the reps at all the competitions have explicitly told the cooks that they are telling judges "don't over think the cooks for what is in the box". So just because there aren't slices in a box don't think they messed up the flat because you are to "judge as presented".

A couple people mentioned chicken breasts which brings up a good point. So if a team doesn't turn in breasts meat (which almost none do) does that mean they are using the thigh as a crutch because the can't cook a proper breast? Similar to the mindset that if only burnt ends or point is in the box they can't cook a proper flat? Plenty of arguments for both, but when the Reps are specifically telling to judge what is in the box then I would hope they would do so.

fnbish
10-22-2012, 10:14 AM
This is where great Reps shine.

At your next-to-last contest (Rome and I can't imagine Duluth being different), the KCBS Reps clearly stated that they ask the judges to judge what is in the box...and I believe he went over brisket specifically.

Taking chances is part of the game. I've heard of teams getting 1st, 2nd and 3rd place calls with pulled/chopped brisket only.

Yes you are correct. In Rome and Duluth the reps went over it and brisket specifically. Now obviously stating it once doesn't change judges minds over night and it seems they are working hard to change how judges look at food. So it will take some time and I know that. I'm glad they are working to change the mindset.

It definitely is a roll of the dice on what the judges will like. Our best and only brisket call this year had slices and chopped brisket which had a very non-brisket sauce on the chopped and it seemed the judged like it.

dhuffjr
10-22-2012, 12:15 PM
It wasn't a comment card. It was stated in the course of a conversation by the judge to one of my team members at a competition two weeks later. The judge didn't know that we were the ones that had turned in only burnt ends.

I noted that on your post. I made two lines, on for your post and the other for the original poster, I should've quoted both of you.

SDAR
10-22-2012, 01:45 PM
At IBCA and lonestar cooks that I have cooked and judged at, and we don't even get to touch the meat. If you can cut a large enough peice, which most of the time you can on brisket, it's all good. IMO if you only had burnt ends in the box, that would throw a flag in my head, "flat was way overcooked and this is all he could salvage"

In IBCA and Lone Star, it has to be sliced...else it is a marked box. You can't even turn in 8 or 9 slices if they ask for 7. You couldn't turn in burnt ends with the slices or it would be a "marked box". Under 50 teams...typically 7 slices. Over 50 teams they ask for 9 slices.

In those contests you can't even trim afterward to fit the box or it will be considered marked. Trim before cook is fine...but afterward will get you disqualified.

jmoney7269
10-22-2012, 02:28 PM
In IBCA and Lone Star, it has to be sliced...else it is a marked box. You can't even turn in 8 or 9 slices if they ask for 7. You couldn't turn in burnt ends with the slices or it would be a "marked box". Under 50 teams...typically 7 slices. Over 50 teams they ask for 9 slices.

In those contests you can't even trim afterward to fit the box or it will be considered marked. Trim before cook is fine...but afterward will get you disqualified.

Thanks for the revamp of the rules, I had forgotten how specific the rules are since the last Time I got smoked at Columbus. Its the hardest sanctioning body of all IMO. I like it, separates the amateurs from the men in the cooking world. Ctba is fun and easy, which alot of places use the format around here. I have come a long way with my brisket since then, so we shall see. Meridian is this weekend

SDAR
10-22-2012, 03:00 PM
Yep, good luck in Meridian. I chose not to go. It is just too far this year and it would wind up costing us about $1000 - $1500 for the trip...gas guzzling motor home and all.

It'll be 9 slices and 9 ribs unless otherwise noted, no burnt ends, no slicing to fit etc. At least two whole half chickens...unless otherwise noted.

Good luck again.

Bunny
10-22-2012, 05:53 PM
Education, Education, Education. I will use this example in my next CBJ class. Thank you.

Bunny

fnbish
10-22-2012, 06:06 PM
Education, Education, Education. I will use this example in my next CBJ class. Thank you.

Bunny

That is a reason I shared. Hoping it can happen less. Thanks! :grin:

Big Mike
10-22-2012, 06:06 PM
And this is what sucks about bbq competitions. Any time you try to be a bit different, you get hammered because you must have screwed something up. When in reality, you just wanted to do something different. Just judge what your given and don't worry about why you were given that.

dmprantz
10-22-2012, 06:32 PM
I'm just throwing out an idea, but I wonder if this kind of illegal judging would be cut down if reps were held accountable for these kinds of scores. I don't know who the rep was nor am I trying to point fingers at any single persion, but if the Rep Committee or BOD took action against reps for not driving the rules home to judges, they might try just a little bit harder to ensure that the judges understand and will abide by the rules....

dmp

boogiesnap
10-22-2012, 07:04 PM
I'm just throwing out an idea, but I wonder if this kind of illegal judging would be cut down if reps were held accountable for these kinds of scores. I don't know who the rep was nor am I trying to point fingers at any single persion, but if the Rep Committee or BOD took action against reps for not driving the rules home to judges, they might try just a little bit harder to ensure that the judges understand and will abide by the rules....

dmp


i agree. however, right or wrong depending on how you view comp brisket, you'd never see another flat slice...

Muzzlebrake
10-22-2012, 08:17 PM
I received a comment card last year stating my brisket needed a better smoke ring. To my knowledge the CD clearly states the smoke ring is the one thing judges are told to not use as a criteria. I was always under the impression that something like that was supposed to be corrected by the TC.

BRBBQ
10-22-2012, 08:52 PM
I received a comment card last year stating my brisket needed a better smoke ring. To my knowledge the CD clearly states the smoke ring is the one thing judges are told to not use as a criteria. I was always under the impression that something like that was supposed to be corrected by the TC.
Correct, thats talked about before the contest, maybe that judge was late to the meeting

dmprantz
10-22-2012, 08:57 PM
I'm just throwing out an idea, but I wonder if this kind of illegal judging would be cut down if reps were held accountable for these kinds of scores.

On second thought, this would probably just result in fewer comment cards being handed out. My understanding is that the reps receive the comment cards and affix them to the scores. If a rep knew that a specific comment card could get him/her into trouble, I would bet that card would get "lost."

On a related note, does any one know if KCBScore supports comment cards? Earlier this year it was noted that the system was disigned to make them difficult-to-impossible to implement.

dmp

boogiesnap
10-22-2012, 09:13 PM
maybe the rules should reflect reality instead of trying to bend it.

Bunny
10-22-2012, 10:44 PM
I received a comment card last year stating my brisket needed a better smoke ring. To my knowledge the CD clearly states the smoke ring is the one thing judges are told to not use as a criteria. I was always under the impression that something like that was supposed to be corrected by the TC.


These judges at CBJ class are taught not to take the smoke ring into consideration because it can be falsified. But remember there are those who judge who are not CBJ's. But it is stated on the CD.

jmoney7269
10-23-2012, 10:41 AM
I'm just throwing out an idea, but I wonder if this kind of illegal judging would be cut down if reps were held accountable for these kinds of scores. I don't know who the rep was nor am I trying to point fingers at any single persion, but if the Rep Committee or BOD took action against reps for not driving the rules home to judges, they might try just a little bit harder to ensure that the judges understand and will abide by the rules....

dmp
We just did a comp a few weeks ago that people were instructed to eat the bite sized peice or cut a piece for themselves, but do not touch the meat. A few people disregarded the rules, tried to twist the chicken leg to see if it would pull out, if it didn't, they gave it 1's and spoke of it not being done at the judging table, then it was the domino effect of Others not wanting to try what was presented to them. Teams that do really well in chicken were placing 17th -DAL. When I checked my scorecard that night Becaise we all thought something was fishy, then the truth came out. I got two 9's and three 1's Becaise the judge didn't want to try it. Even though the table captain said this did not happen, the proof is in the pudding. Myself and 6 teams spoke to the administrator of the fair and said we wOuld not return if the judging criteria was not improved on. To me it sounded like a bunch of old timers and drunks getting free meals or what we call "eaters" the sad thing is that the promoter Denys this still to this day when people who were actual judges who have come forward and given their name. It's just that people dont have any personal accountability anymore. It's sad that you have to hold a grown ups hand and walk them through the right process these days

Muzzlebrake
10-23-2012, 11:01 AM
These judges at CBJ class are taught not to take the smoke ring into consideration because it can be falsified. But remember there are those who judge who are not CBJ's. But it is stated on the CD.

I'll take a look to see if I still have the card but I thought it was from a CBJ.

My question about the whole thing is where are the checks and balances for judges? With so much of judging open to subjectivity here are 2 examples of something that is objective but also specifically forbidden and emphasized prior to each contest.

What happens after a judge submits a score based on the wrong criteria? As a cook if we submit something that is not within the rules we run the risk of being DQ'ed. What recourse does a cook have when they are being judged outside of the rules?

To be honest I have not judged that much and may be wrong but I was under the impression that part of the TC duties were to ensure the judges followed the proper criteria.
I would think that the TC would review the comment cards just as he reviews the score cards. In the case of something like these 2 instances, is it far fetched to think that the TC approach the judge and point out the error and have the entry scored according to the proper criteria?

bbq.tom
10-23-2012, 01:30 PM
I'll take a look to see if I still have the card but I thought it was from a CBJ.

My question about the whole thing is where are the checks and balances for judges? With so much of judging open to subjectivity here are 2 examples of something that is objective but also specifically forbidden and emphasized prior to each contest.

What happens after a judge submits a score based on the wrong criteria? As a cook if we submit something that is not within the rules we run the risk of being DQ'ed. What recourse does a cook have when they are being judged outside of the rules?

To be honest I have not judged that much and may be wrong but I was under the impression that part of the TC duties were to ensure the judges followed the proper criteria.
I would think that the TC would review the comment cards just as he reviews the score cards. In the case of something like these 2 instances, is it far fetched to think that the TC approach the judge and point out the error and have the entry scored according to the proper criteria?

This is yet another reason for KCBS to keep track of CBJs and how they are judging, which is exactly what they are working on with their new software.

Judges that consistently score in the 5-7 range while others at their table are in the 8-9 range for the same category will be able to be identified and "counseled" or whatever KCBS is planning on remedial training.

bigabyte
10-23-2012, 01:44 PM
Once a score is written down, it can not be changed. However, the judge can be spoken to, and depending on what the organizer chooses to do, if they get wind of it, they don't have to allow that judge to judge at any more of their contests.

That's the extent of consequences for judges though in terms of an improperly scored entry (too high or too low). Basically none.

Having the lowest score thrown out takes care of this problem in most cases, at least where it dings the cooks.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-23-2012, 02:17 PM
I would take that as a hint. Put slices in the box. Taking risks is good and all, but in kcbs are rarely rewarded.

Bunny
10-23-2012, 05:13 PM
I'll take a look to see if I still have the card but I thought it was from a CBJ.

My question about the whole thing is where are the checks and balances for judges? With so much of judging open to subjectivity here are 2 examples of something that is objective but also specifically forbidden and emphasized prior to each contest.

What happens after a judge submits a score based on the wrong criteria? As a cook if we submit something that is not within the rules we run the risk of being DQ'ed. What recourse does a cook have when they are being judged outside of the rules?

To be honest I have not judged that much and may be wrong but I was under the impression that part of the TC duties were to ensure the judges followed the proper criteria.
I would think that the TC would review the comment cards just as he reviews the score cards. In the case of something like these 2 instances, is it far fetched to think that the TC approach the judge and point out the error and have the entry scored according to the proper criteria?


Most of the reps we know take the comment cards seriously. We do anyway. If something is out of line, we talk to the judge. But remember, we try hard not to let it happen but judges do slip by us from time to time. We also have a CD the Table Captains must listen to because their job is so important.

arrowhead
10-23-2012, 07:39 PM
I'll take a look to see if I still have the card but I thought it was from a CBJ.

My question about the whole thing is where are the checks and balances for judges? With so much of judging open to subjectivity here are 2 examples of something that is objective but also specifically forbidden and emphasized prior to each contest.

What happens after a judge submits a score based on the wrong criteria? As a cook if we submit something that is not within the rules we run the risk of being DQ'ed. What recourse does a cook have when they are being judged outside of the rules?

To be honest I have not judged that much and may be wrong but I was under the impression that part of the TC duties were to ensure the judges followed the proper criteria.
I would think that the TC would review the comment cards just as he reviews the score cards. In the case of something like these 2 instances, is it far fetched to think that the TC approach the judge and point out the error and have the entry scored according to the proper criteria?

table captains are instructed not to approach the judges about the scores. they are instructed to review the scorecards and bring any discrepancy to the attention of the rep and the rep is supposed to handle it. the rep is the only person who can authorize a change of score.

landarc
10-23-2012, 07:45 PM
I would take that as a hint. Put slices in the box. Taking risks is good and all, but in kcbs are rarely rewarded.
I don't entirely agree here, and it is beacuse I have been that guy who just did not get my flat done right, but, for some reason, the point was incredible. I wanted to turn in the point as slices, but, my team captain made the call to chunk it, before the flat was checked. We turned in slices and chunks, and the one comment we got was that if the chunks alone, we scored higher, the flat took away from it.

And yes, i could have cooked it better.

Muzzlebrake
10-23-2012, 09:03 PM
Bunny, I hear you and by no means do I wish for this to turn into yet another judge bashing thread. I think things like this are more of an anomaly than the norm and the entire judging system gets it right more often than not. I was just wondering what are the consequences of a judge that breaks the rules of judging? As a cook if we break the rules, we run the risk of a DQ, which negatively effects only our team directly. If a judge violates the rules the consequences can have an effect on everyone it seems except that judge.

No offense to Tom or Chris but I'm not talking about trying to correct something as subjective as a judge that gives low scores. I'm talking about what happens when a judge violates a clearly defined objective rule such as we have in these 2 examples. What would happen say if a judge just opened up a beer at the table or lit a cigarette? How is that different from a judge using not only their own criteria but standards that are specifically highlighted prior to judging each and every time?
Reps are accountable to KCBS, organizers to reps, all of whom with help from table captains and judges, monitor cooks to ensure rules are followed. There seems to be a system of accountability in place to ensure that the rules are followed for everyone except judges and table captains. Shouldn't they be held to them same standard of accountability as everyone else involved?

ModelMaker
10-24-2012, 08:17 AM
This is yet another reason for KCBS to keep track of CBJs and how they are judging, which is exactly what they are working on with their new software.

Judges that consistently score in the 5-7 range while others at their table are in the 8-9 range for the same category will be able to be identified and "counseled" or whatever KCBS is planning on remedial training.


Yes by all means lets "council" those judges that use the whole number range available and get everybody into that "8-9 range".
That will make competition BBQ more fun.
Ed

Dr_KY
10-24-2012, 08:24 AM
And this is what sucks about bbq competitions. Any time you try to be a bit different, you get hammered because you must have screwed something up. When in reality, you just wanted to do something different. Just judge what your given and don't worry about why you were given that.

Been is the same situation. Actually watched a video of a judge pointing out that 'something must be wrong' because of the amount of sauce (pork) and size of the slices (brisket) and that is what he looks for when judging. :mad2:

Pickin' Porkers
10-24-2012, 09:18 AM
If more judges consistently get into the 8-9 range then the number of ties are going to increase to exponential levels. It is IMPERATIVE that KCBS allow 1/2 point scoring to help alleviate all the potential ties. No sure about everyone else but I am not in favor of my placement being decided ultimately by a computer generated coin toss. Way too much money and effort goes into each category to see our placement decided by this method. Even though ties may be broken using the other criteria....judges need to be able to to score a sample correctly when "sitting on the fence" about what they have eaten rather than give the benefit of the doubt with the higher score.

Slamdunkpro
10-24-2012, 01:46 PM
If more judges consistently get into the 8-9 range then the number of ties are going to increase to exponential levels. It is IMPERATIVE that KCBS allow 1/2 point scoring to help alleviate all the potential ties.......
How about just teach the judges to use the whole scoring range of 2-9 ?

Pickin' Porkers
10-24-2012, 08:24 PM
How about just teach the judges to use the whole scoring range of 2-9 ?

Not a bad idea. From the judging I have done, very few entries deserve a 5 or 6 on taste. LOTS sit on the fence between 8-9 or 7-8.

Bunny
10-24-2012, 10:23 PM
Bunny, I hear you and by no means do I wish for this to turn into yet another judge bashing thread. I think things like this are more of an anomaly than the norm and the entire judging system gets it right more often than not. I was just wondering what are the consequences of a judge that breaks the rules of judging? As a cook if we break the rules, we run the risk of a DQ, which negatively effects only our team directly. If a judge violates the rules the consequences can have an effect on everyone it seems except that judge.

No offense to Tom or Chris but I'm not talking about trying to correct something as subjective as a judge that gives low scores. I'm talking about what happens when a judge violates a clearly defined objective rule such as we have in these 2 examples. What would happen say if a judge just opened up a beer at the table or lit a cigarette? How is that different from a judge using not only their own criteria but standards that are specifically highlighted prior to judging each and every time?
Reps are accountable to KCBS, organizers to reps, all of whom with help from table captains and judges, monitor cooks to ensure rules are followed. There seems to be a system of accountability in place to ensure that the rules are followed for everyone except judges and table captains. Shouldn't they be held to them same standard of accountability as everyone else involved?

They are ABSOLUTELY held accountable. A rep threw a judge off the table at the American Royal one year for not abiding by our rules. The judge continually arugued with me and would not cooperate in anyway. I was the Table Captian and called the Rep over.

If a judge opens up a beer, he's/she's out. No questions asked. There have been few times, not many, that judges have been overruled because they were not abiding by our rules.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-25-2012, 08:29 AM
When I took the judging class, they taught the pull test on slices for tenderness of a brisket, mentioned burnt ends, but didnt have an actual test for it. I really see nothing wrong with that comment card. I think it was constructive criticism which most BBQ guys cant handle from judges. I will say there are some funny comment cards out there, but this one is straight forward to me as a lesson.

fnbish
10-25-2012, 08:46 AM
When I took the judging class, they taught the pull test on slices for tenderness of a brisket, mentioned burnt ends, but didnt have an actual test for it. I really see nothing wrong with that comment card. I think it was constructive criticism which most BBQ guys cant handle from judges. I will say there are some funny comment cards out there, but this one is straight forward to me as a lesson.

When I took the judging class last year I had the exact same experience. Tenderness was taught by the pull test. But then the reps are now trying to broaden the scale of what is acceptable for turn ins and not simply go by the old standards so teams can try and get an edge by tying something new without getting smacked down.

I got 2 others cards this competiton. One said they tasted a little too much salt on my ribs and another said the chicken was a tad over sauced. Those to me are constructive criticism and I am absolutely making adjustments for this weekend. But if reps are trying to say "hey judges there are now more than one way to turn in brisket" and it is being ignored then that isn't right. The reps at competitions have specifically mentioned there is nothing wrong with just burnt ends or putting something like chopped in there. So it isn't a matter of not taking criticism, but a matter of needing to educated the judges better, which is a work in progress and now happening.

dmprantz
10-25-2012, 08:48 AM
They are ABSOLUTELY held accountable. A rep threw a judge off the table at the American Royal one year for not abiding by our rules. The judge continually arugued with me and would not cooperate in anyway. I was the Table Captian and called the Rep over.

If a judge opens up a beer, he's/she's out. No questions asked. There have been few times, not many, that judges have been overruled because they were not abiding by our rules.

Do you know if incident reports are filed in these situations? If a team breaks the rules, it runs the risk of being DQed and banned on a first offense. A Rep breaks the rules, he runs the risk of being "fired" from being a rep. Do judges run the risk of punishment beyond one day if they break the rules? I seem to remember a group of judges who were caught drinking not to long ago. Word on the street is that there was no long term punishment, though I don't know this for a fact.

dmp

dmprantz
10-25-2012, 09:03 AM
When I took the judging class last year I had the exact same experience. Tenderness was taught by the pull test. But then the reps are now trying to broaden the scale of what is acceptable for turn ins and not simply go by the old standards so teams can try and get an edge by tying something new without getting smacked down.

I took my CBJ class three years ago (almost to the day), and I don't remember being taught that specific test for that meat. I do specifically remember that all tenderness tests were taught as suggestions, and not the exhaustive, perscriptive method for judging that criterion. If it were, they'd have machines do it. In that same class, it was stressed multiple times that brisket smoke ring is to be ignored due to the abillity to chreate one chemically, and that you are supposed to judge what is presented, even if it's not what you are used to. That's why we judged some chicken breasts in class. Neither of those rules are new within the last three years. Admitedly, not every CBJ instructor teaches class the same way, but that's what I remember.

To imply that judges are following orders and okay by judging any category poorly is just silly. Reps are responisble for explaining the current rules to judges, and judges are responsible for following them. End of story.

dmp

Jacked UP BBQ
10-25-2012, 10:06 AM
When I took the judging class last year I had the exact same experience. Tenderness was taught by the pull test. But then the reps are now trying to broaden the scale of what is acceptable for turn ins and not simply go by the old standards so teams can try and get an edge by tying something new without getting smacked down.

I got 2 others cards this competiton. One said they tasted a little too much salt on my ribs and another said the chicken was a tad over sauced. Those to me are constructive criticism and I am absolutely making adjustments for this weekend. But if reps are trying to say "hey judges there are now more than one way to turn in brisket" and it is being ignored then that isn't right. The reps at competitions have specifically mentioned there is nothing wrong with just burnt ends or putting something like chopped in there. So it isn't a matter of not taking criticism, but a matter of needing to educated the judges better, which is a work in progress and now happening.

I agree they should be told and should judge what is in front of them, but unfortunately for us its not always that way. I have turned in chopped and burnt ends and got a top ten, but all my firsts in brisket were with slices and burnt ends. To me the more examples of the meat perfectly cooked the better you will be judged.

Bunny
10-25-2012, 07:12 PM
Do you know if incident reports are filed in these situations? If a team breaks the rules, it runs the risk of being DQed and banned on a first offense. A Rep breaks the rules, he runs the risk of being "fired" from being a rep. Do judges run the risk of punishment beyond one day if they break the rules? I seem to remember a group of judges who were caught drinking not to long ago. Word on the street is that there was no long term punishment, though I don't know this for a fact.

dmp

Yes, that group is on probation. And yes, the BOD receives letters or reports from reps for misconduct or problems. They are dealt with according to behavior or rules broken.

boogiesnap
10-25-2012, 07:46 PM
Yes, that group is on probation. And yes, the BOD receives letters or reports from reps for misconduct or problems. They are dealt with according to behavior or rules broken.

excellent. can you provide the list of CBJ #'s(not names)of judges that have been banned, disciplined, or on probation?

Bunny
10-25-2012, 10:10 PM
excellent. can you provide the list of CBJ #'s(not names)of judges that have been banned, disciplined, or on probation?

I guess you could call KCBS and ask. They may not be at liberty to say. Some teams are not disclosed either. Reps are usually aware of names of cookers on probation and judges. So are organizers. I just don't think it's public knowledge. But not sure. Best thing is to call KCBS and ask.:roll:

bbq.tom
10-26-2012, 01:34 PM
Yes by all means lets "council" those judges that use the whole number range available and get everybody into that "8-9 range".
That will make competition BBQ more fun.
Ed


You've definitely missed my point! I'm talking about judge #6 (or whatever you want to call them) that wouldn't give a 9 if it was the best thing they ever put into their mouth! If everyone else at the table thought it was an 8 or 9 and judge #6 thought it was a 5 there is something definitely WRONG with judge #6. It's NOT the "system" that I'm referring to, it is tracking judge #6 and either providing additional training to them or whatever other action the BOD deems appropriate.

I agree that too many judges are stuck in the 8-9 scoring category, but if something deserves an "excellent" then it should be awarded a 9. I've personally not judged too many entries that were "below average" or less.

Bunny
11-05-2012, 10:35 AM
Just wanted to let you know I held a CBJ class in St Louis this weekend and this was definately brought up in class. You are to judge what is presented to you that day in that individual box. The scenerio was brought to the attention of the students and they totally understood it because they are taught that brisket can be pulled, chopped, sliced or a combination. They cannot judge down on what is NOT in the box.

Hope this helps.

Bunny

arrowhead
11-05-2012, 05:41 PM
Just wanted to let you know I held a CBJ class in St Louis this weekend and this was definately brought up in class. You are to judge what is presented to you that day in that individual box. The scenerio was brought to the attention of the students and they totally understood it because they are taught that brisket can be pulled, chopped, sliced or a combination. They cannot judge down on what is NOT in the box.

Hope this helps.

Bunny

looking forward to you teaching our class in april.

fnbish
11-05-2012, 09:41 PM
And here is the box in question. Doesn't look as good as I thought it did during turn ins :icon_blush:.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/IMG2021-1.jpg

Funtimebbq
11-05-2012, 09:55 PM
When I took the judging class, they taught the pull test on slices for tenderness of a brisket, mentioned burnt ends, but didnt have an actual test for it. I really see nothing wrong with that comment card. I think it was constructive criticism which most BBQ guys cant handle from judges. I will say there are some funny comment cards out there, but this one is straight forward to me as a lesson.

I have to disagree with your "nothing wrong" sentence. How is tenderness judged on the other meats. For me, it is in the tasting process, or more specifically, in the biting. This judge could have easily taken the burnt ends and bitten into them to test for tenderness.
If there were both slices and burnt ends in the box, would the tenderness be scored only by the pull test or would both types of cuts be averaged for taste and tenderness?
This judge was wrong and I hope the team sends their info to KCBS. I understand, the score cards are kept by KCBS and maybe they can determine who that judge was by the table/seat number on the actual score card and the judged admonished.

Benny

Bunny
11-06-2012, 08:29 AM
looking forward to you teaching our class in april.

:thumb: Us, too!!

Bunny
11-06-2012, 08:30 AM
And here is the box in question. Doesn't look as good as I thought it did during turn ins :icon_blush:.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/IMG2021-1.jpg

Actually, I think it looks great!