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Pig Pimp 21
10-01-2012, 11:10 AM
(Excuse this first post, as I am sure it has been discussed ad nauseum before, but I couldn't make the forum search work for me - something about restrictions on newbs I think.)

In looking at judges' comments at places like BBQ critic, I notice again and again that there are comments on garnish and smoke rings. We all know those things shouldn't be considered in scoring, but let's face it, some judges consider them. And some who know better probably do subconsciously.

Is it a disservice to those new to competition (like me) to suggest that those aesthetic "non-factors" are really irrelevant? When one point can make the difference shouldn't we just come out and say it - garnish and smoke rings matter to judges.

Also, do judges get feedback to know if their scores are anomalous? (This is really a different topic, but I don't want to overdo the new threads right off).

musicmanryann
10-01-2012, 11:27 AM
From my perspective it is common knowledge that these factors are important. Now at the CBJ class they teach the jugdes not to score based on these factors, but if they weren't relevant cooks wouldn't make artificial smoke rings and putting greens to begin with.

The point is attention to detail is paramount to success in this game, even if they are details that judges are taught to not may pay attention to. If it makes your meat look good, do it!:thumb:

As far a judges knowing if they are scoring different than the rest of the table, it is at the reps' discretion to discuss with the judge and let them know. I know some reps are better than others at this. Do I wish more could be done so judges could get statistical feedback of their scoring patterns? You bet.

deguerre
10-01-2012, 11:36 AM
The search restrictions will go away if you purchase a subscription. (Hint hint...):becky:

Pig Pimp 21
10-01-2012, 02:44 PM
Subscription, eh? Guess I've been lurking in the wrong places and missed that option. I think I should hold off on the subscription until I can assess how well folks around here tolerate me.

The_Kapn
10-01-2012, 02:50 PM
Look at the very bottom of the page for a Google Search bar keyed to this site.
Not the most elegant, but does work.

Don't worry about "tolerate"....

Welcome aboard.

TIM

jmoney7269
10-01-2012, 03:10 PM
Down here in tx, of you put salad in your box or cover it with BBQ sauce, your chit is gettin thrown in the trash and automatic dq! And I like it that way and I have no desire to compete outside of that realm. Heck even in our non sanctioned events, if it's not a vinegar based mop and it looks glazed, trash can! I love it, let the BBQ speak for itself, sauce is for the people that need to cover up their BBQ. I do admit to using TQ for a unspecified amount of time in both cookoffs, but we do well, so gonna keep doin it.
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/f45d5f0f.jpg
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/49152369.jpg
It's not near that big at cookoffs. Left that one on for 30 min
People get all wrapped up in stuff that don't matter. It should taste good and be tender

landarc
10-01-2012, 03:11 PM
I think that it doesn't take very long to figure out that garnish, presentation and smoke ring will matter in the end. But, I would say that most folks will realize that long before they nail all the other factors needed to get a good cook produced.

Lake Dogs
10-01-2012, 07:08 PM
O L D debate on garnish; KCBS will not rid itself. Going back to the founders, they felt strongly that it separated KCBS from other sanctioning bodies, and so it shall stay. They dont care about debate about it IS judged, consciously or unconsciously, it's part of the history that isn't to go away.

I can tell you that a few of the best looking pork, brisket, and rib boxes I've ever seen had no garnish. Use it, or dont.

As to the smoke ring, that's a very toughie. For many people, the smoke ring and the very nature of it is what IS part of what IS appetizing in BBQ. Not all are appetizing, but some without it can be overly un-appetizing... It's not so much that they're judging it, perse, but that it contributes to the appealing nature of the Q. Luckily appearance score is weighted low.

Hub
10-03-2012, 09:06 AM
Garnish is optional, but nonetheless gets used to enhance appearance via the contrast it introduces. It is hard to ignore a well garnished entry, but most judges can get past it. Garnishing is so established that I've seen only one non-garnished box in the last five years.

Currently, the only feedback to judges is via the Table Captain who, in some circumstances, inform new judges if their scores are high or low compared to the rest of the table. New software will allow for judge tracking in the future.

Hub

jmoney7269
10-03-2012, 09:57 AM
Garnish is optional, but nonetheless gets used to enhance appearance via the contrast it introduces. It is hard to ignore a well garnished entry, but most judges can get past it. Garnishing is so established that I've seen only one non-garnished box in the last five years.


Hub
And how did you judge or IMO which alot of judges do "grudge"
I have heard coments like : not full enough, not enough sauce, etc etc
I have even heard of comments like : didn't appear to be cut from the same rib
I will stick with my good ol tx BBQ associations where they judge nothing but the BBQ
:crazy:

JS-TX
10-03-2012, 10:33 AM
Left that one on for 30 min
People get all wrapped up in stuff that don't matter. It should taste good and be tender

Jmoney, I know you said you do fine w/TQ but I will tell you that judges that cook BBQ/brisket will recognize it. I know I do, the smoke ring on the sides give it away for me. Unless the flavor is really good, I'd probably score it down a point or 2. You probably already know this, just FYI.

jmoney7269
10-03-2012, 11:13 AM
Jmoney, I know you said you do fine w/TQ but I will tell you that judges that cook BBQ/brisket will recognize it. I know I do, the smoke ring on the sides give it away for me. Unless the flavor is really good, I'd probably score it down a point or 2. You probably already know this, just FYI.

And that's why you shouldn't be a judge! Just FYI. What gives you the right to presume the use of TQ and score down on a brisket? If I were a team which does trim the flat to fit the box before cooking, and there is meat exposed with No rub, the ring will be larger or to a non knowing judge to be enhanced. You are not supposed to make appearance scores based on a smoke ring which is actually a natural process of cooking. Woods contain nitrates as they burn the affect the meat. Pretty soon, any appearance of a smoke ring will be bad, and none will be allowed at all. Gimme a break. As a practicing lawyer, we tend to know these thing. Assumption is not perceived as truth or even law. As I disagree with you in this aspect, now you have no presumptive right.

JS-TX
10-03-2012, 06:37 PM
And that's why you shouldn't be a judge! Just FYI. What gives you the right to presume the use of TQ and score down on a brisket? If I were a team which does trim the flat to fit the box before cooking, and there is meat exposed with No rub, the ring will be larger or to a non knowing judge to be enhanced. You are not supposed to make appearance scores based on a smoke ring which is actually a natural process of cooking. Woods contain nitrates as they burn the affect the meat. Pretty soon, any appearance of a smoke ring will be bad, and none will be allowed at all. Gimme a break. As a practicing lawyer, we tend to know these thing. Assumption is not perceived as truth or even law. As I disagree with you in this aspect, now you have no presumptive right.

Just looks unnatural and overdone to me bro. Much rather see a natural ring when I open that box. Personally I see no reason to enhance it when it occurs naturally.

chrisnjenn
10-03-2012, 07:02 PM
I will stick with my good ol tx BBQ associations where they judge nothing but the BBQ
:crazy:

Gotta laugh at these Texans sometimes.

And I will stick with the good ole KCBS.

RangerJ
10-03-2012, 07:03 PM
Justin...

If they are judging nothing but the Q down here in Texas, why use Tender Quick?

And there is sauce used in every competition around here, to say that it gets thrown in the trash is inaccurate.

The OP was obviously directing his comments toward a KCBS type cook, no need to hijack the thread.

Lake Dogs
10-03-2012, 07:10 PM
Gotta laugh at these Texans sometimes.

And I will stick with the good ole KCBS.

In our area (including you in the our) we also have GBA, MBN, FBA, and can probably get an SC and AL sanctioned contest or two in a GA town here n there... No garnish.

jmoney7269
10-03-2012, 07:11 PM
Just looks unnatural and overdone to me bro. Much rather see a natural ring when I open that box. Personally I see no reason to enhance it when it occurs naturally.


Let me refine my words a little. That was when I first strarted experimenting With TQ a while back. If you put a thick coat of rub on, you will get a minuscule smoke ring when cooking H&F. Furthermore half of my comps are unsanctioned and the right use of TQ helps. It's not my problem people aren't serious about BBQ as I am. Further than that, if we weren't technologically advanced as we are now, and someone didn't spill the beans, you would still be scoring brisket with a pretty smoke ring high. Hell, this one was cooked in the oven!
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/425c8d58.jpg
And in just sayin BRO that if your a judge and your marking down scores on something your told not to judge on in the first place, I'm glad I don't compete in your sanctioning body. Down here there is no appearance Because appearance makes no difference on how it tastes, makes no difference on how tender it is, makes no difference on the overall enjoyment of the meat being sampled by the judge.

landarc
10-03-2012, 07:31 PM
I love the folks who say 'if you have to use sauce you are covering up bad Q' (and I consider many who say that to be friends). My response to them is 'why do you use salt and pepper then, or chile powder, or garlic powder, or smoke wood...just cook that meat straight up' And how is adding a vinegar mop not saucing and changing the meats flavor?

If I am going to judge a piece of meat, or a box, or a plate of food, I am going to take a look to see if it is appetizing, and if there is a smoke ring, or not, it all comes into play if the food looks good. For me, I don't need to see a smoke ring for a piece of meat to look good, but, there has to be something. I might well judge down for a piece of meat with a large smoke ring, not because of the ring, but, because overall, it just doesn't do it for me.

RangerJ
10-03-2012, 07:33 PM
Ugh...

Saying you cook in a bunch of unsanctioned comps and then talking about how serious you are is quite the dichotomy, no?

And I'll ask again, if appearance has nothing to do with the three items you quoted, WHY use Tender Quick on a hot and fast cook?

You've already answered the question, here: If you put a thick coat of rub on, you will get a minuscule smoke ring when cooking H&F.

SO...you are worried about the appearance.

You can't pass judgement on a sanctioning body or how it cooks or judges if you don't cook it. That's my .02. My guess is your mileage is going to vary.

Texana
10-03-2012, 07:36 PM
Your serious about BBQ and most of ur cooks are unsanctioned?...

And for the others....don't judge all Texas cooks by the same standard.

And Jmoney Texas events do include appearance. While it is combined and not a separate score taste judges are still instructed to include it.....oops that's in sanctioned events with serious cooks.

And one more thing.....TQ is not against the rules. However serious cooks don't need to use it.....just sayin

JS-TX
10-03-2012, 07:51 PM
And in just sayin BRO that if your a judge and your marking down scores on something your told not to judge on in the first place, I'm glad I don't compete in your sanctioning body. Down here there is no appearance Because appearance makes no difference on how it tastes, makes no difference on how tender it is, makes no difference on the overall enjoyment of the meat being sampled by the judge.

Justin, look to the left... I'm in Tx too BRO. Like Texana said appearance is part of the score. Even says so on the scoring sheet. BTW, I've never heard a judging official say to ignore the smoke ring or lack thereof. I can see why you want one, but don't get riled up cause I can spot a really fake looking smoke ring. Also TQ has sugar and salt, they have taste.

Butt Rubb'n BBQ
10-03-2012, 08:00 PM
:popcorn: This thread is getting good!

Fat Woody
10-03-2012, 09:15 PM
Natural or unnatural? C'mon! You can tell by looking, right?

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=488&pictureid=3943

chrisnjenn
10-03-2012, 09:21 PM
Who is to say you would tell the truth anyway? I'm sure JS doesn't know you from Adam.

Fat Woody
10-03-2012, 09:24 PM
Who is to say you would tell the truth anyway? I'm sure JS doesn't know you from Adam.

Ouch! That's not nice or brethrenly! I don't know YOU from Adam, so what difference does that make?

chrisnjenn
10-03-2012, 09:26 PM
Your in your face challenge to JS wasn't nice or brethrenly either.

Fat Woody
10-03-2012, 09:31 PM
Anyone who says they can spot a fake smoke ring needs a little re-education; this one (which admittedly looks fake) is completely natural - that's all I'm sayin'. I don't want to be judged down for something that is someone's "perception" of reality...

landarc
10-03-2012, 09:44 PM
I was gonna say real, too late.

Butt Rubb'n BBQ
10-03-2012, 10:03 PM
It would just be easier to agree to disagree. You guys have made my night. Good grief I need to get a life. Happy smoking!

jmoney7269
10-03-2012, 11:05 PM
Your serious about BBQ and most of ur cooks are unsanctioned?...

And for the others....don't judge all Texas cooks by the same standard.

And Jmoney Texas events do include appearance. While it is combined and not a separate score taste judges are still instructed to include it.....oops that's in sanctioned events with serious cooks.

And one more thing.....TQ is not against the rules. However serious cooks don't need to use it.....just sayin

How about this one? Chappel hill VFD grand champs SANCTIONED! 1st ribs out of 108 entrys! 3rd chicken 9th brisket and we used TQ on the damn thang! Oh gotta throw in 2nd chefs choice. That serious enough for you bud? Where are your major GC trophys? I got plenty of them? Remember I only been a contributing member for a few months on here and txbbqrub forum.
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/33886d04.jpg
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/8fac6951.jpg
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/568c0209.jpg
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/34ee006f.jpg
The same rib that won that won the Bellville country music festival 38 teams non sanctioned
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/1ea4736f.jpg
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/6d66a896.jpg
What else do you wanna see? Oh I got more
140 teams. Used my Famous rib glaze and bean recipe. 1st beans btw which were a core Categeory
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/325caea0.jpg
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/c8e72177.jpg
Washington county fair king of coals sanctioned. 28 out of 30 possible sanctioned 1st ribs and brisket, 3rd chicken
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/5961274c.jpg
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac174/justinmargist/e400e0d1.jpg
Now that we got that out of the way of me and our team Being crappy cooks Because half of our cookoffs are non sanctioned. What now! Are we worthy now ti give our opinion on what good bbq is? I obviously know what the heck I'm talkin about. If I missed something, please fill me in!

jmoney7269
10-03-2012, 11:10 PM
Anyone who says they can spot a fake smoke ring needs a little re-education; this one (which admittedly looks fake) is completely natural - that's all I'm sayin'. I don't want to be judged down for something that is someone's "perception" of reality...

Amen brotha! I'm not there to get judged on perception, Im there to take home
Money Because my chit tastes good!!! No BBQ snob here! And any of to that think that you have the right to judge down on a smoke ring when your directed not to judge on at all to begin with, you definitely need some
Re education on morals also. Teams spend $1000's on cookoffs. Don't cost you a thing to judge

SDAR
10-03-2012, 11:50 PM
CTBA? How many rib entries you turn in to get that 1st ribs? Told us two on the other forum?

SDAR
10-03-2012, 11:56 PM
That one trophy up on the right looks like a bowling trophy. Them don't count for BBQ. :shock:

SDAR
10-04-2012, 12:02 AM
This is too rich! Hey Craig, show him the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo GC. Or hey that Pitmaker Vault on the trailer GC trophy. That was a good one. :blah:

rolfejr
10-04-2012, 04:07 AM
I know it's early but are those trophies made of empty beer cans?
God bless Texas.

RangerJ
10-04-2012, 06:47 AM
Well in the military we called it Situational Awareness... Pontification about "salad" in a box and sauce covering up the Q on a 95% KCBS board would demonstrate a lack of it.

Well, asking Craig if he has any Major GC's does that as well also. Especially as he's on his way to the Royal where I do believe he is in the Invitational.

As a native Texan, I've got my prejudice's about where I think the best Que comes from and I don't really care what other people think. But I hate to see comments like this.

Gotta laugh at these Texans sometimes.


I stand by my statement that you can't judge how an organization is run or its standards of judging if you never cook in it. Which by the way, Sam's is coming back to Texas next year. Jump in, the water is fine.

jmoney7269
10-04-2012, 07:24 AM
CTBA? How many rib entries you turn in to get that 1st ribs? Told us two on the other forum?
2, one dry, one glazed. Not my problem I used the allowances to my advantage.

That one trophy up on the right looks like a bowling trophy. Them don't count for BBQ. :shock:
Dude I got so many trophies from cookoffs, bowling, archery, and Billiards I sometimes debate throwing them all away and starting over. Good catch though I didn't even notice it

jmoney7269
10-04-2012, 07:37 AM
Well in the military we called it Situational Awareness... Pontification about "salad" in a box and sauce covering up the Q on a 95% KCBS board would demonstrate a lack of it.

Well, asking Craig if he has any Major GC's does that as well also. Especially as he's on his way to the Royal where I do believe he is in the Invitational.

we got our invitational papers also,just declined after we figured we would spend over $1k in gas, and they wanted like another $1k to upgrade our spot to hold our RV. We considered it, now we are not. We have no sponsors like Pitmaker and texas pepper jellies do to go to an event and cook All that food and give it all away. I go there to cook my food, take a walk of fame or take the walk of shame. Done plenty of both.

Fat Woody
10-04-2012, 08:04 AM
So...this thread has been derailed to Crazy Town; back to the OP's point, obviously smoke rings and garnish enter into the score with some judges, even if it's just at a subconscious level, as was so eloquently stated by Brother Landarc.

BTW - nice first post PP21! You may have started a Texas civil war :biggrin1:

JS-TX
10-04-2012, 10:32 AM
And any of to that think that you have the right to judge down on a smoke ring when your directed not to judge on at all to begin with, you definitely need some
Re education on morals also. Teams spend $1000's on cookoffs. Don't cost you a thing to judge

Who and what bbq org says to ignore a smoke ring or no smoke ring? Like I've said BEFORE, Tx. gulf coast and IBCA don't even mention it. The only thing on appearance they say is "Does it look appealing, BBQ you want to eat?" A fake looking smoke ring that overshadows the overall appearance is not very appetizing IMO. But if your chit is good then you have nothing to worry about (re-read what I've already posted) and why focus on a smoke ring anyway? You keep saying judges are told to ignore it anyway. Don't get pissed, just keep doing what you are doing, most judges don't know you can fake a smoke ring.

Jorge
10-04-2012, 10:42 AM
Let me refine my words a little. That was when I first strarted experimenting With TQ a while back. If you put a thick coat of rub on, you will get a minuscule smoke ring when cooking H&F. Furthermore half of my comps are unsanctioned and the right use of TQ helps. It's not my problem people aren't serious about BBQ as I am. Further than that, if we weren't technologically advanced as we are now, and someone didn't spill the beans, you would still be scoring brisket with a pretty smoke ring high. Hell, this one was cooked in the oven!

And in just sayin BRO that if your a judge and your marking down scores on something your told not to judge on in the first place, I'm glad I don't compete in your sanctioning body. Down here there is no appearance Because appearance makes no difference on how it tastes, makes no difference on how tender it is, makes no difference on the overall enjoyment of the meat being sampled by the judge.

How about this one? Chappel hill VFD grand champs SANCTIONED! 1st ribs out of 108 entrys! 3rd chicken 9th brisket and we used TQ on the damn thang! Oh gotta throw in 2nd chefs choice. That serious enough for you bud? Where are your major GC trophys? I got plenty of them? Remember I only been a contributing member for a few months on here and txbbqrub forum.




The same rib that won that won the Bellville country music festival 38 teams non sanctioned


What else do you wanna see? Oh I got more
140 teams. Used my Famous rib glaze and bean recipe. 1st beans btw which were a core Categeory


Washington county fair king of coals sanctioned. 28 out of 30 possible sanctioned 1st ribs and brisket, 3rd chicken


Now that we got that out of the way of me and our team Being crappy cooks Because half of our cookoffs are non sanctioned. What now! Are we worthy now ti give our opinion on what good bbq is? I obviously know what the heck I'm talkin about. If I missed something, please fill me in!

Amen brotha! I'm not there to get judged on perception, Im there to take home
Money Because my chit tastes good!!! No BBQ snob here! And any of to that think that you have the right to judge down on a smoke ring when your directed not to judge on at all to begin with, you definitely need some
Re education on morals also. Teams spend $1000's on cookoffs. Don't cost you a thing to judge

2, one dry, one glazed. Not my problem I used the allowances to my advantage.


Dude I got so many trophies from cookoffs, bowling, archery, and Billiards I sometimes debate throwing them all away and starting over. Good catch though I didn't even notice it

we got our invitational papers also,just declined after we figured we would spend over $1k in gas, and they wanted like another $1k to upgrade our spot to hold our RV. We considered it, now we are not. We have no sponsors like Pitmaker and texas pepper jellies do to go to an event and cook All that food and give it all away. I go there to cook my food, take a walk of fame or take the walk of shame. Done plenty of both.

Counselor, I think you are going to have a hard time being certified as a expert witness in the court of public opinion. The more you told us how good you are, the more difficult it became for me to swallow.

You participated in taking this conversation from garnish and smoke ring as it relates to scores, to lack of sponsorship for yourself and what others receive. Besides the fact that it's not relevant the argument borders on nonsense. Texana, aka Craig Sharry, aka Texas Pepper Jelly is paying his own expenses including the pits on the back of his trailer. He had the same choice you did, and chose to spend the money. I've got no clue what the deal is with Pitmaker, because it's not my place to ask George or Victor about their financial arrangements nor do I care. They've put themselves in the position to have the funds to do it, it wasn't given to them.

You received the most input, that was not supportive, from fellow Texans? As a Texan that has cooked both in Texas and KCBS I've formed a general opinion based on your posts in this thread and others....beginning with your desire for a showdown with Johnny Trigg. Opinion, stated as fact does not fly with many members of the jury. Until that changes I'm afraid that I'll perceive you as "J Let Me Tell You How Good I Am Money". Talk less, cook more, let your results speak for themselves and that experience will translate to credibility.

Jorge
10-04-2012, 10:45 AM
Who and what bbq org says to ignore a smoke ring or no smoke ring? Like I've said BEFORE, Tx. gulf coast and IBCA don't even mention it. The only thing on appearance they say is "Does it look appealing, BBQ you want to eat?" A fake looking smoke ring that overshadows the overall appearance is not very appetizing IMO. But if your chit is good then you have nothing to worry about (re-read what I've already posted) and why focus on a smoke ring anyway? You keep saying judges are told to ignore it anyway. Don't get pissed, just keep doing what you are doing, most judges don't know you can fake a smoke ring.

KCBS. The reason is that it can be artificially created using TQ and similar products.

Alexa RnQ
10-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Oh my, oh my. We recently heard a great deal of similar talk in Texas, at an invitational rib contest. "Salad" was not allowed. We were told repeatedly that "if it needs sauce, give it a toss". Having never cooked in Texas before, we of course knew that Texas is the only *real* bbq, and that Texans *know* good BBQ.

Imagine our surprise when we won. :shock:

kwas68
10-04-2012, 01:23 PM
Back to the OP...
I'm a comp noob with no credentials to speak of. The garnish issue is totally hypocritical, IM lowly O. I'm of the understanding that the garnish, or lack thereof, shouldn't affect a cook's score. However, when you scan the criticisms on this site along with BBQcritic, almost all will mention the garnish. How can a judge comment on the garnish if they were supposed to ignore it? I see comments like too low, too sparse in an area, not an even "frame," etc. For something that shouldn't matter, it gets a lot of attention. It is obvious, to me anyway, that judges are looking extensively at the garnish. It takes effort for a judge to determine if your garnish "frame" is uneven, for example. If a judge is actively comparing the size of the top row garnish to the bottom, he/she is burning calories on criteria that shouldn't influence their opinion. I have a hard time believing that a judge who has evaluated the garnish to this level of detail is just going to discard his evaluation. It WILL influence his score.

So the message that garnish is immaterial is not resonating with the judges. I think that this falls on KCBS training.

Knowing this, a cook can whine/bitch/complain (sorta like I did above) and lose, or adapt and pretend that you are being scored on presentation and not appearance. Because you are.

landarc
10-04-2012, 01:53 PM
The reality is, you get so little time to really judge a boxes appearance, it walks by you, and sometimes rather quickly, maybe a few seconds to see the entire thing. If the meat really rocks, it hardly matters what the greenery looks like, as the judges (all meat eaters) will be looking at the meat. If the meat is blah, then their eyes will wander. But, sometimes, despite your best efforts, the meat does not really rock, that is when a few points, or fractions thereof, just might lift you up a spot or two.

And you can control garnish absolutely with some preparation. There is rarely a reason for a bad garnish. Meat appearance is much tougher. Since the rules allow garnish, and really, you pretty much have to do it, why not work at getting the easiest thing to control right. I happen to think it looks nice to have it in there. Although, show me a box filled with really nice ribs or great chicken, I won't see the greenery at all.

RangerJ
10-04-2012, 02:49 PM
Oh my, oh my. We recently heard a great deal of similar talk in Texas, at an invitational rib contest. "Salad" was not allowed. We were told repeatedly that "if it needs sauce, give it a toss". Having never cooked in Texas before, we of course knew that Texas is the only *real* bbq, and that Texans *know* good BBQ.

Imagine our surprise when we won. :shock:

But how was the Tex Mex?

Alexa RnQ
10-04-2012, 03:09 PM
Tex Mex was awesome, of course, and I've spent this week reverse-engineering a wonderful green sauce we had. The boys have gone through a half-gallon so far!

jmoney7269
10-04-2012, 03:43 PM
Counselor, I think you are going to have a hard time being certified as a expert witness in the court of public opinion. The more you told us how good you are, the more difficult it became for me to swallow.

You participated in taking this conversation from garnish and smoke ring as it relates to scores, to lack of sponsorship for yourself and what others receive. Besides the fact that it's not relevant the argument borders on nonsense. Texana, aka Craig Sharry, aka Texas Pepper Jelly is paying his own expenses including the pits on the back of his trailer. He had the same choice you did, and chose to spend the money. I've got no clue what the deal is with Pitmaker, because it's not my place to ask George or Victor about their financial arrangements nor do I care. They've put themselves in the position to have the funds to do it, it wasn't given to them.

You received the most input, that was not supportive, from fellow Texans? As a Texan that has cooked both in Texas and KCBS I've formed a general opinion based on your posts in this thread and others....beginning with your desire for a showdown with Johnny Trigg. Opinion, stated as fact does not fly with many members of the jury. Until that changes I'm afraid that I'll perceive you as "J Let Me Tell You How Good I Am Money". Talk less, cook more, let your results speak for themselves and that experience will translate to credibility.

What does me having a desire to have a showdown with Johnny trigg have to do you? You said let the experience talk for itself. I just showed you my experience with all the trophies. I'm sorry if your experience was not as pleasant in the sanctioned events as mine, it happens :hand: that would be the only reason I would think you wouldn't be able to stomach it. I have judged in ctba, IBCA, lone star and they all have put emphasis directly/indirectly on the fact that a smoke ring is a natural occurring product of the cook, and not to gauge your score primarily on that. But yes, the does it look good and taste good and the overall enjoyment, but anyone no matter who they are for judging should mark down for what the consider enhanced smoke ring because you can't be absolutely certain.

RangerJ
10-04-2012, 03:53 PM
Its the education systems fault.. you know we are required to take Texas History like 3 times....

jmoney7269
10-04-2012, 04:26 PM
Its the education systems fault.. you know we are required to take Texas History like 3 times....

I think it was the lead In the paint chips :doh:

smoke-n-my-i's
10-04-2012, 05:47 PM
Currently, the only feedback to judges is via the Table Captain who, in some circumstances, inform new judges if their scores are high or low compared to the rest of the table. New software will allow for judge tracking in the future.

Hub

KCBS table captains are NOT suppose to tell the judges how to or how not to score.... that is how I was taught anyway.....




If I am going to judge a piece of meat, or a box, or a plate of food, I am going to take a look to see if it is appetizing, and if there is a smoke ring, or not, it all comes into play if the food looks good. For me, I don't need to see a smoke ring for a piece of meat to look good, but, there has to be something. I might well judge down for a piece of meat with a large smoke ring, not because of the ring, but, because overall, it just doesn't do it for me.


"I might judge down for a piece of meat with a large smoke ring"... So, you are not judging for what is presented to you, but to what you like or don't like? That is a no-no... judge what is presented to you ! ! !



The reality is, you get so little time to really judge a boxes appearance, it walks by you, and sometimes rather quickly, maybe a few seconds to see the entire thing. If the meat really rocks, it hardly matters what the greenery looks like, as the judges (all meat eaters) will be looking at the meat. If the meat is blah, then their eyes will wander. But, sometimes, despite your best efforts, the meat does not really rock, that is when a few points, or fractions thereof, just might lift you up a spot or two.



When I table captain, I wait until I get the nod from the judge that he/she has had a good look at the presentation before them, and then go to the next. It might take a couple of extra seconds, but I know that they have had a chance to judge properly.

Stoke&Smoke
10-04-2012, 06:16 PM
Back to the OP...
I'm a comp noob with no credentials to speak of. The garnish issue is totally hypocritical, IM lowly O. I'm of the understanding that the garnish, or lack thereof, shouldn't affect a cook's score. However, when you scan the criticisms on this site along with BBQcritic, almost all will mention the garnish. How can a judge comment on the garnish if they were supposed to ignore it? I see comments like too low, too sparse in an area, not an even "frame," etc. For something that shouldn't matter, it gets a lot of attention. It is obvious, to me anyway, that judges are looking extensively at the garnish. It takes effort for a judge to determine if your garnish "frame" is uneven, for example. If a judge is actively comparing the size of the top row garnish to the bottom, he/she is burning calories on criteria that shouldn't influence their opinion. I have a hard time believing that a judge who has evaluated the garnish to this level of detail is just going to discard his evaluation. It WILL influence his score.

So the message that garnish is immaterial is not resonating with the judges. I think that this falls on KCBS training.

Knowing this, a cook can whine/bitch/complain (sorta like I did above) and lose, or adapt and pretend that you are being scored on presentation and not appearance. Because you are.

My take for what it's worth Kwas....

When you go to an art museum, all the paintings, or at least most, are in frames, correct? Now, not too many folks will pay much attention, if any, to the frames, but usually, the frame is picked so that the art it's framing "pops"

So, if I'm looking at a painting, and the frame does it's job and makes the art look better than if it weren't there, it's done it's job. But I'm not going to critique by saying they should have used knotty pine instead of cedar

On the other hand, I don't think I'd lose sleep if KCBS did away with garnish, but I don't see that happening

As to the whole smoke ring thing, I always cook comp briskets hot and fast, and always have at least a 1/4" smoke ring on them, without any chemicals other than what naturally occurs in the meat, and coals. I've tasted a number of briskets that were exposed to TQ (cook told me it was in the rub) and it tasted crappy. But technically, using TQ isn't against any rule. But other than adding color, what's the point. Brisket doesn't need curing unless you're making corned beef (edie: or sausage!)

jmoney7269
10-05-2012, 07:32 AM
It leaves a hammy taste if left on too long from the curing process. I can see why it would be horrible if left on the whole cook

Stoke&Smoke
10-05-2012, 09:17 AM
It leaves a hammy taste if left on too long from the curing process. I can see why it would be horrible if left on the whole cook

But if all you're using it for is an artificially enhanced smoke ring, what's the point?

TQ is for making cured meat. Other than corned beef or sausage, it really has no legitimate place in a brisket preparation

kwas68
10-05-2012, 10:00 AM
S&S, I agree. Good garnish does make the meat look better.

I think the analogy doesn't work completely because there are a disproportionate amount of comments on garnish vs. a painting's frame. When I've gone to the museum I have never commented on a frame. I would think that the majority of people are looking at the painting or "meat" in this analogy. My guess is that if you went to a painting critic website, they would talk about colors, brush strokes, lighting, shadows, etc. I highly doubt the frame would get as much press as garnish does in BBQ critiques. One could argue that the frames in museums are done well and therefore aren't commented on. But BBQ critics will even compliment good garnish.

I'm not saying it is necessarily wrong, but it is hypocritical. For something that is supposed to be ignored, it gets way too much attention. Something that is getting that much attention has to be affecting scores. So just call it what it is - presentation - and be done with it.

kwas68
10-05-2012, 10:17 AM
I also wanted to make the point that "appearance" is the easiest judging category to nail down. In my first comp, my appearance scores averaged a point over my taste and tenderness scores. That's because I knew what was expected because I was able to get very valuable feedback on my practice rounds. Not knowing that a sloppily garnished box is going to score poorly just indicates the cook didn't do his homework.

SDAR
10-05-2012, 10:23 AM
I would think that the majority of poor appearance scores are due to unappetizing appearance of the meat. :hand:

Stoke&Smoke
10-05-2012, 10:24 AM
No doubt, but, as others have pointed out, at least in KCBS, it's unlikely garnish will be going away. I know what you mean though, all the tutorials for perfect putting greens, etc. Sometimes it seems like the meat becomes an afterthought.

But I think, right or wrong, one of the things that separates the elite teams, who win week in and week out, from the rest of us, is their attention to every little detail, and, for better or worse, garnish IS a detail, and likely an important one, at least in KCBS
We can debate fairness or judge re-education all winter long (but lets don't!) it won't change.

As to the smoke ring, that's one that, in my opinion, should be open to some instruction from a rep where appropriate. KCBS rules say it is not to be considered, and using that criterion, if a judge is heard saying he judged down because it "looked fake", or up because it "had such a beautiful smoke ring" , should receive an onsite rule refresher. If I were a table captain, I would certainly at least mention such a comment to a rep.

SDAR
10-05-2012, 10:57 AM
S&S...Right on. Why would you want to lose a point from a judge or two if a good looking green would get it for you? It is all the details and that is why my wife prepares and mows the greens. I am not a decorator, she is. I actually think she takes a lot of pride in them. She always wants me to take a picture of it before I place the meat on it. :biggrin1: Maybe that's so she can say...hey what was wrong with the appearance of the meat you cooked if we get a low appearance score?