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Pickin' Porkers
09-11-2012, 09:11 AM
With all the other problems at Myrtle Beach.... At first we thought the checks had bounced but in further checking with our bank, the Omar Shriners put a stop payment on two checks we won at Myrtle Beach over the Labor Day weekend. Not sure if anyone else has ever run across this situation before but I sure hope all teams will remember this activity in future contests.

cpw
09-11-2012, 09:19 AM
Wow. That's just adding insult to injury right there.

deguerre
09-11-2012, 09:20 AM
In some States this could be considered fraud. Have you contacted the police?

Jorge
09-11-2012, 09:32 AM
Have you been given a reason why it was done?

Sauced!
09-11-2012, 09:35 AM
Hmmm. I just checked and our checks so far are okay. I hope they stay that way.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

va92bronco
09-11-2012, 09:42 AM
...and the hits just keep coming. This is a contest whose issues just keep growing and growing. Being new at this, I don't have enough experience, but I can't imagine another contest being much worse than what I have heard about this one so far. Maybe somebody more seasoned and wiser can answer that one.

Be interesting to know what they're response is. I assume you have tried to contact them to find out why?

Pack-A-Smokes
09-11-2012, 09:45 AM
I guess they really do not want to have a comp next year!

deguerre
09-11-2012, 09:47 AM
Another question - did your bank charge you for those "returned" checks? Comps are expensive enough as it is...

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
09-11-2012, 10:17 AM
stopped checks sometime take several weeks before the action takes place, we had one here at work that took about 6weeks because of the different systems it has to go through. We ended up taking legal action to get paid.

Shiz-Nit
09-11-2012, 12:14 PM
Everyone I guess would agree a lot of people has lost respect that had a hand in this mess!

Ford
09-11-2012, 01:09 PM
In the past KCBS has made good when an organizer defaults.

Wrench_H
09-11-2012, 02:06 PM
How did you find this out? I just deposited mine with no issues. Did your bank immediatly know it had a stop payment on it or did they have to wait until it processed?

Sauced!
09-11-2012, 02:21 PM
Unless your bank and the bank the check is drawn on are the same you won't know if a stop payment was placed on them until they get processed through the system which will be several days. I deposited mine last Tuesday and so far they are still good.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Pickin' Porkers
09-11-2012, 03:21 PM
I have not been given an official reason by the Omar Shriners why the stop payment was placed on these two checks and my bank has in fact indicated that a stop payment was issued by the check writer. I want to emphasis that this is NOT Shriners International but a division named the Omar Shriners based in Summerville, SC. Any comments or hard feelings should not be directed towards the wonderful Shriners Hospital.

I called the person in charge of the cook teams who acted as if he knew nothing about it with a promise "to look into it". The attitude indicated I would be waiting a very long time in hearing back. All that matters is that we have a contest organizer that does not honor their prize checks and the reason is irrelevant to me. The day after the contest I did have some issues about vending there which was resolved by our team packing up and leaving, however, vending the day after a contest is a completely different issue than the contest itself. The contest was over....a completely separate issue and doubt this was the reason.

The two checks totaled $600 and we have pissed more than that away at many contests on eating out and booze. Principle is the guiding factor here and we'll see how the two sanctioning bodies handle this since they have been notified (KCBS & SBN). They have not had enough time to investigate nor determine the corrective action; however, it is scary to know teams spend as much money as we do competing and that the sanctioning bodies may not have the backbone nor "teeth" to enforce the sanctioning agreement. We shall see how all this plays out.

Other issues such as power, water and turn-in mishaps are numerous and won't be discussed here. However, it is the responsibility of all organizers to provide sufficient volunteer labor to assist meeting the needs of the contestants and public which we did not see at this event.

Podge
09-11-2012, 03:28 PM
Ever since hopkinsville, Ky, 2005, I've cashed my checks ASAP on monday.

Pickin' Porkers
09-11-2012, 04:21 PM
Unless your bank and the bank the check is drawn on are the same you won't know if a stop payment was placed on them until they get processed through the system which will be several days. I deposited mine last Tuesday and so far they are still good.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Ever since hopkinsville, Ky, 2005, I've cashed my checks ASAP on monday.

Podge, I deposited my checks on Tuesday Sept. 4th...day after Labor Day and I just found out today!

Rolling Smoke
09-11-2012, 04:40 PM
Ever since hopkinsville, Ky, 2005, I've cashed my checks ASAP on monday.

I've never had that problem with any of the comps we cooked......but then, we never won anything either so it all kind of works itself out.

huminie
09-11-2012, 04:43 PM
I know there was a contest out here in CA a couple years back where the checks bounced. One of the teams had to go so far as to file a small claims court to get the matter resolved. As I recall, in CA there are laws that allow you to claim more than the actual amount through this type of lawsuit. Not sure if this is true elsewhere and if there is a difference between a bounced check vs. stopped payment. In any case, the organizer would be wise to make good on all payments as things could get very ugly fast!

WineMaster
09-11-2012, 04:49 PM
With all the other problems at Myrtle Beach.... At first we thought the checks had bounced but in further checking with our bank, the Omar Shriners put a stop payment on two checks we won at Myrtle Beach over the Labor Day weekend. Not sure if anyone else has ever run across this situation before but I sure hope all teams will remember this activity in future contests.

This should really be handled differently. Sometimes chit happens. Either way you should contact them and give them a chance to make it right B-4 airing it out in a public forum.

nthole
09-11-2012, 04:54 PM
Something similar about a year ago in St. Louis, although the checks didn't bounce, they just weren't given out. Although I think most or all got paid a few months later. Is this happening more often? It was asked back then, should KCBS be doing more about guaranteeing the awards $.

bbqczar
09-11-2012, 05:17 PM
This should really be handled differently. Sometimes chit happens. Either way you should contact them and give them a chance to make it right B-4 airing it out in a public forum.


WHAT ???? Why ? I think all the teams should aware of this and to let other teams that attended that they may be seeing this at their banks as well.If the check stop was for legit reason then the person or persons stopping the checks should have let the people know why they were stopping payment BEFORE they stopped the payments,not just saying"uh,well,duh,I don't know,but I'll look into it",thats TOTAL BS and shouldn't happen to anyone and it should be brought out into the open right away ! The people paying/stopping were already given a chance,the chance before payment was stopped :mad:

bbqczar
09-11-2012, 05:20 PM
I would think that to prevent this is EXTREMELY simple,make KCBS require that all pay-out's be in cash,no if's and's or but's,absolute requirement that comes with sanctioning,this is an easy fix,but KCBS won't do it.

sdbbq1234
09-11-2012, 05:22 PM
Just an FYI: Most banks will cash a check drawn on another branch within its entity even if you do not have an account there. They most likely will charge you, and it might take a few minutes but most (BOA, WELLS FARGO, etc...) will do it.

They will be reluctant at first but, my old saying is, "when the pressure gets too great, ESCALATE!"

It works.

And yes, it may take weeks if not months for a check to bounce. I know from experience. It sucks!

Ok, one more edit: try to keep everything you do in writing. At least, keep a detailed note of "who, why, when and where" as far as your verbal conversations go.


wallace

Rolling Smoke
09-11-2012, 05:56 PM
I would think that to prevent this is EXTREMELY simple,make KCBS require that all pay-out's be in cash,no if's and's or but's,absolute requirement that comes with sanctioning,this is an easy fix,but KCBS won't do it.

Easier said than done and as an organizer, an edict from KCBS requiring me to pay in cash would be enough to cause me to hang up my organizer's hat. Non-payments and stop payments are a rare so why punish everyone for what a couple are doing?

bbqczar
09-11-2012, 06:33 PM
Easier said than done and as an organizer, an edict from KCBS requiring me to pay in cash would be enough to cause me to hang up my organizer's hat. Non-payments and stop payments are a rare so why punish everyone for what a couple are doing?


Why would it be hard ? I have only been to maybe 2 or 3 contest's in over 7 years that paid by check,all others were cash and several of the organizers said that was the easiest way to do it.I guess maybe if you don't have the prize money the day of the event,which would be an absolute no-no then you would want to pay by check,I can't think of any reason otherwise that it would be hard.

tmcmaster
09-11-2012, 06:38 PM
I would think that to prevent this is EXTREMELY simple,make KCBS require that all pay-out's be in cash,no if's and's or but's,absolute requirement that comes with sanctioning,this is an easy fix,but KCBS won't do it.
If the KCB$ can figure out a way to get a % of that cash, they would do it in a heartbeat.
:boxing:

Rolling Smoke
09-11-2012, 06:59 PM
Why would it be hard ? I have only been to maybe 2 or 3 contest's in over 7 years that paid by check,all others were cash and several of the organizers said that was the easiest way to do it.I guess maybe if you don't have the prize money the day of the event,which would be an absolute no-no then you would want to pay by check,I can't think of any reason otherwise that it would be hard.

My contest is an llc and to pay out cash doesn't set well with accountants or auditors. The money is in the bank (even if it has to come out of my pocket) or the check wouldn't be cut so that's not the issue. It's all accounting.

So in answer to my question, why punish the masses for the mistakes of only a few?

Grizmt
09-11-2012, 07:10 PM
They can also require escrow of funds, they've done it with some promoters before. As for "punishing everyone for what a couple have done" isn't that how every rule has been acquired so far? Issues come up, rules are created to fix the issues.
The way I see it, since prize funds have grown rather large it's past time to protect the integrity of the event and the people who base their decisions and actions on the "faith" that they'll get paid if they win.
Like I've always said, cash don't bounce!

I'm guessing in this situation it may well have been retribution for the disagreement over vending the OP spoke of.
Not like I've ever heard of a organizer withholding funds over vending disputes.:icon_shy:rolleyes:

Smoke'n Ice
09-11-2012, 07:29 PM
I'm guessing in this situation it may well have been retribution for the disagreement over vending the OP spoke of.
Not like I've ever heard of a organizer withholding funds over vending disputes.:icon_shy:rolleyes:

Actually, there were two contracts in place. Contract one was the contest. That contract was completed fully. Contract two was the vending. One has nothing to do with two and they may have opened themselves up to some junk yard lawyer looking to make a buck.

Jacked UP BBQ
09-11-2012, 07:38 PM
The only check I ever ran to the bank with is Phils! haha I have a few thousand in winnings from the season sitting here. I better run to the bank with them. I would say KCBS will have to and will make it right

Just Smokin' Around
09-11-2012, 09:53 PM
Why would it be hard ? I have only been to maybe 2 or 3 contest's in over 7 years that paid by check,all others were cash and several of the organizers said that was the easiest way to do it.I guess maybe if you don't have the prize money the day of the event,which would be an absolute no-no then you would want to pay by check,I can't think of any reason otherwise that it would be hard.

I've seen very few contest pay in cash. They were usually small, unsanctioned events. I guess it's a bit different in the south west. Here in the east, it's checks and we never had a problem.

djqualls
09-12-2012, 01:58 AM
My contest is an llc and to pay out cash doesn't set well with accountants or auditors. The money is in the bank (even if it has to come out of my pocket) or the check wouldn't be cut so that's not the issue. It's all accounting.

So in answer to my question, why punish the masses for the mistakes of only a few?

Then you have poor accountants or operating cash balance. A signed payout slip, the original entry, the prize sheet, and the KCBS score sheet are more than sufficient backup for any audit. Cash or check you will have to have a W9 if its over $600. Cash is King and the IRS knows that and GAAP understands that as well.

CivilWarBBQ
09-12-2012, 03:11 AM
Then you have poor accountants or operating cash balance. A signed payout slip, the original entry, the prize sheet, and the KCBS score sheet are more than sufficient backup for any audit. Cash or check you will have to have a W9 if its over $600. Cash is King and the IRS knows that and GAAP understands that as well.

You need to consider politics.

Events sponsored by government don't like to pay cash for anything. Voters tend to frown on it.

Jorge
09-12-2012, 07:53 AM
I would think that to prevent this is EXTREMELY simple,make KCBS require that all pay-out's be in cash,no if's and's or but's,absolute requirement that comes with sanctioning,this is an easy fix,but KCBS won't do it.

What's the average cost for armed security? In some cases you are talking about advertising where $20k+ in cash can be found at a particular time.

Sledneck
09-12-2012, 07:56 AM
What's the average cost for armed security? In some cases you are talking about advertising where $20k+ in cash can be found at a particular time.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh your spoiling my plot

tmcmaster
09-12-2012, 09:00 AM
What's the average cost for armed security? In some cases you are talking about advertising where $20k+ in cash can be found at a particular time.
Not that much.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mosler-GSA-Security-Container-and-Combination-Safe-328-lbs-/400319713646?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d34ea116e

Grizmt
09-12-2012, 09:57 AM
Actually, there were two contracts in place. Contract one was the contest. That contract was completed fully. Contract two was the vending. One has nothing to do with two and they may have opened themselves up to some junk yard lawyer looking to make a buck.

If everything you say is correct then you're right, one has nothing to do with the other BUT some organizations (or the people running them) don't see things as others do, are (many times) in no way run by knowledgeable business people. Mostly run just by volunteers who got suckered into or volunteered to do the particular event and their total focus is on generating $$$$ for whatever their cause is.
Thing is, many of these people know that it'll cost more than what is owned to use legal action to get it paid or have worded their agreements so one sided in their favor that recovery is near impossible. Some also depend on the fact most people will just say "to heck with it, we'll let it go and move on" and walk away.

I was told a truism by my attorney once long ago which is "what's right and just may not necessarily be what's upheld in court".

Grizmt
09-12-2012, 10:03 AM
What's the average cost for armed security? In some cases you are talking about advertising where $20k+ in cash can be found at a particular time.

Why security? Would YOU want to try and take money from a place where there's nothing but sharp objects right at hand, tired and in some cases really ticked off people and who cut things up just for FUN? :clap2:

roksmith
09-12-2012, 10:41 AM
If you require the contests to pay out in cash, then you would most likely be expected to pay your entry fee in cash.
The only fool-proof way to prevent something like this would be for KCBS to require full payment to them of the prize money prior to the contest and then cut the checks themselves.

I don't think anybody wants to see the effects that would have on prize pools.

Jorge
09-12-2012, 11:47 AM
Why security? Would YOU want to try and take money from a place where there's nothing but sharp objects right at hand, tired and in some cases really ticked off people and who cut things up just for FUN? :clap2:

If I chose to be a criminal, yeah I'd like those odds.:biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::bigg rin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::bigg rin1::biggrin1:

timzcardz
09-12-2012, 11:59 AM
If I chose to be a criminal, yeah I'd like those odds.:biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::bigg rin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::bigg rin1::biggrin1:


:thumb:

Yep, only a fool would bring a knife to a gun fight.

deguerre
09-12-2012, 12:00 PM
:thumb:

Yep, only a fool would bring a knife to a gun fight.

Especially if Jorge is involved...

Jorge
09-12-2012, 12:08 PM
Not that much.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mosler-GSA-Security-Container-and-Combination-Safe-328-lbs-/400319713646?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d34ea116e

If someone is willing to steal the random ATM machine I don't think a 300 lb safe is much of a deterrent.

Grizmt
09-12-2012, 02:38 PM
:thumb:

Yep, only a fool would bring a knife to a gun fight.
Wouldn't that depend on if Johnny Trigg (and some others) were there???:thumb::laugh:

Rolling Smoke
09-12-2012, 03:18 PM
Then you have poor accountants or operating cash balance. A signed payout slip, the original entry, the prize sheet, and the KCBS score sheet are more than sufficient backup for any audit. Cash or check you will have to have a W9 if its over $600. Cash is King and the IRS knows that and GAAP understands that as well.

For starters, you're hardly qualified to pass judgement on the abilities of my accountant or the financial health of my organization. Secondly, it doesn't make a helluva lot of sense to generate another form then track it along with the original entry, 'prize sheet' and the KCBS score sheet when one cancelled check is proof enough.

Leatherheadiowa
09-12-2012, 04:36 PM
How about handling things like the Sam's Club contests? I know it would require work (and time=$), but it appears that several competitiors are spending a fair amount of time chasing down funds, paying fees, while still be short earned prize money.
While KCBS gives their all to make contests fair; if they would collect the funds from the organizers, and then send a FEDEX envelope back to the organizers prior to the contest with the award checks the entire problem could be solved. Yeah, sure the FEDEX plane can crash, etc, but at least every paying contestant would know that a good faith effort to get every award paid with guaranteed funds at the event had been made by KCBS. I don't recall an instance where KCBS and the BOD hasn't done the right thing.
I love to hear about the new team going to Anytown, USA and getting two calls and having a great time and being excited about competing again. I hate to read and hear about instances like this that make people considering an amazing hobby reconsider.
Either it is time to vett the organizers better or try a new means of fiscal management at the contest level.

Rolling Smoke
09-12-2012, 05:21 PM
BJ, when it gets to the point that we have to go through KCBS or any other 'clearing house' to stand good on prize money, then it's time to pi$$ on the fire and call in the dogs.

I founded and ran the Kettering Ohio contest for the last five years and I have a $100 bill for any team that got a call at any of my events and did not receive their check when they walked to the stage. I've got another $100 bill for any team that can say the check they receivedwas not worth the paper it was written on.

This whole thing is getting blown out of proportion because of one or two irresponsible organizers. Let's take a look at all of the other events that pay as they promise and stop focusing on one or two negative events.

Big Mike
09-12-2012, 05:44 PM
How about handling things like the Sam's Club contests? I know it would require work (and time=$), but it appears that several competitiors are spending a fair amount of time chasing down funds, paying fees, while still be short earned prize money.
While KCBS gives their all to make contests fair; if they would collect the funds from the organizers, and then send a FEDEX envelope back to the organizers prior to the contest with the award checks the entire problem could be solved. Yeah, sure the FEDEX plane can crash, etc, but at least every paying contestant would know that a good faith effort to get every award paid with guaranteed funds at the event had been made by KCBS. I don't recall an instance where KCBS and the BOD hasn't done the right thing.
I love to hear about the new team going to Anytown, USA and getting two calls and having a great time and being excited about competing again. I hate to read and hear about instances like this that make people considering an amazing hobby reconsider.
Either it is time to vett the organizers better or try a new means of fiscal management at the contest level.

This scenario would require teams to get their entry in early for a competition. Which I am sure organizers would like that very much. However, most teams wait until the last minute to enter a competition which could not happen for this to work properly.

Red Valley BBQ
09-12-2012, 05:57 PM
This scenario would require teams to get their entry in early for a competition. Which I am sure organizers would like that very much. However, most teams wait until the last minute to enter a competition which could not happen for this to work properly.

Assuming that the prize money or at least part of it comes from paid entries.

Leatherheadiowa
09-12-2012, 06:21 PM
Ok, to make everything better, have a registration deadline for people that want to be paid at the contest and any registraints after said date get a checkin the mail within 30 days. The whole people waiting to scout the contestant list may end too. I personally will always try and register at least 30 days prior to a contest, thus I would expect to be paid in full at the conclusion of the event. If I decided to cook this Saturday I would be hard pressed to expect the organizer to pay me when I didn't register early enough so they could make arrangements.
A majority of contest organizers go out of there way to make things work and helping the few make sure things go off with fewer hitches will make more people happy.
While we can propose solutions, beat up those proposals, but at the end of the day we all
will face similar issues every few months unless somene decides to take action.

Rolling Smoke
09-12-2012, 06:50 PM
Ok, to make everything better, have a registration deadline for people that want to be paid at the contest and any registraints after said date get a checkin the mail within 30 days. The whole people waiting to scout the contestant list may end too. I personally will always try and register at least 30 days prior to a contest, thus I would expect to be paid in full at the conclusion of the event. If I decided to cook this Saturday I would be hard pressed to expect the organizer to pay me when I didn't register early enough so they could make arrangements.
A majority of contest organizers go out of there way to make things work and helping the few make sure things go off with fewer hitches will make more people happy.
While we can propose solutions, beat up those proposals, but at the end of the day we all
will face similar issues every few months unless somene decides to take action.

Once again, why the hell does it have to be so complicated? It's a very simple process; A) a team decides to cook a contest so they submit their entry form along with their entry fee in the form of a check. B) They cook the contest. C) They are given a check in return for any categories they score in.

It's not rocket science!

Rolling Smoke
09-12-2012, 06:52 PM
And it's not broken (except for maybe 10 events out of 300) so don't try to fix it. Deal with the ones that are not playing the way they should.

Grabnabber
09-12-2012, 07:02 PM
Not a competitive Q'er (never competed, probably never will, so take it with a grain of salt) but if I was awarded a prize, I would expect to be paid as promised.

Pickin' Porkers
09-12-2012, 07:06 PM
As I have written before...there are two separate issues at play here. First, the organizer makes good on the contest checks...regardless. Second, if there are issues between the organizer and a team, then take the traditional, legal route. With the garbage we have been handed thus far as to their reasoning behind this stop payment issue...it is hilarious. I have been told we tore up the ground because our RV got stuck up.....then they change that excuse to....we dumped our RV Black and Grey tanks on the grounds before we left (not true)...BUT.....we all know how the "he said....she said" crap goes. How the KCBS and SBN handles things will speak volumes.....it'll be interesting to see how things play out. I can assure you egos are at play here....

Leatherheadiowa
09-12-2012, 07:37 PM
Once again, why the hell does it have to be so complicated? It's a very simple process; A) a team decides to cook a contest so they submit their entry form along with their entry fee in the form of a check. B) They cook the contest. C) They are given a check in return for any categories they score in.

It's not rocket science!

It's not rocket science until you are on the wrong end of the deal, I have and waited 43 days for a check.
It isn't that easy, and knowing first hand how the accounting works for a large Iowa contest there are so many variables that can effect all facets of a contest and having a single standard would work.

Fat Freddy
09-12-2012, 07:51 PM
Once again, why the hell does it have to be so complicated? It's a very simple process; A) a team decides to cook a contest so they submit their entry form along with their entry fee in the form of a check. B) They cook the contest. C) They are given a check in return for any categories they score in.

It's not rocket science!

With all due respect, I disgree.

I got lucky enough to win some money once and the contest did not give out checks at awards, they sent them at a later date. When I received my check it was $250 short. So I had to call, no answer left a message, no response, waited a day,called again, left another message and an email. And then did get a call back. Was a simple computer error, and they sent out the difference, but I had to wait almost 20 days from my winning to getting the final amount due. I did and still took this contest at its word but there is a deadline to enter, shouldnt there be a deadline for receiving your winnings? Easiest solution in my simple minded opinion is to have a cash payout.

I dont think there is a perfect solution for all situations, but one universal simple process is not always the answer either.

Rolling Smoke
09-12-2012, 08:07 PM
Sounds like you boys are cooking the wrong contests. I've cooked everything from unsanctioned events to Arlie Bragg productions and never been stiffed in ten years. Come on over to Xenia and I'll show you how simple it is.

Fat Freddy
09-12-2012, 08:19 PM
Sounds like you boys are cooking the wrong contests. I've cooked everything from unsanctioned events to Armies Bragg productions and never been stiffed in ten years. Come on over to Xenia and I'll show you how simple it is.

Dont get me wrong I agree that it should be simple, and 98% or more contests have zero winnings issues. I just think that if there is a deadline to enter for accounting and other reasons it is not unreasonable to expect to get your winnings when you win. And if even ONE team at ONE rogue contest has an issue then ALL possible ideas should be up for discussion. If there is some sort of true guarantee then ALMOST everything you said I agree with. ( I aint smart enough for rocket science):becky:

Rolling Smoke
09-12-2012, 08:41 PM
I'm not smart enough for rocket science either but I do know the proper way to conduct business. While I sympathize with everyone who's ever been stiffed at an event, I'll be damned if I'm going to take the heat or conform to unreasonable regulations because of a few slimey carpetbaggers.

chrisnjenn
09-12-2012, 09:00 PM
We must follow some ridiculous rules and laws everyday at work, school, and in this country because of the actions of others and not of our own. Fair? No, but like the saying goes, life isn't always fair.

djqualls
09-13-2012, 01:06 AM
For starters, you're hardly qualified to pass judgement on the abilities of my accountant or the financial health of my organization. Secondly, it doesn't make a helluva lot of sense to generate another form then track it along with the original entry, 'prize sheet' and the KCBS score sheet when one cancelled check is proof enough.

Let's see, I've been a General Manager in the Casino Gaming industry for the past 25 years this month, and have promoted $25 Million dollars plus worth of box office receipts in live concerts in the last five years as well. I'd say I know a little about cash based transactions and the proper reconciliation of those receipts.

If I told my patrons or Artists, I only pay by check, I'm out of business. I know this is a text based conversation so context is difficult to interpret however you seem to believe that your principals are above a contestants suspicion. That very attitude would blip my radar and I wouldn't patronize your event.

It's a pile of crap that one contest can spoil the spirit of the game but look at what one little airline incident did 11 years ago to what we all have to do just to get on a plane.

I do find it unusual for any organizer much less Shriners be corrupt or crooked but then again the eagles on my ring tell me they (The Shriners) are upright travelers....... I'd like to hear the other side to the story on this one.....

Rolling Smoke
09-13-2012, 03:09 AM
We must follow some ridiculous rules and laws everyday at work, school, and in this country because of the actions of others and not of our own. Fair? No, but like the saying goes, life isn't always fair.

Maybe so but in case you missed my opening comment, I don't have to and will not continue to organize any event if i'm forced to pay cash at the awards. That's the bottom line.

Rolling Smoke
09-13-2012, 04:03 AM
Let's see, I've been a General Manager in the Casino Gaming industry for the past 25 years this month, and have promoted $25 Million dollars plus worth of box office receipts in live concerts in the last five years as well. I'd say I know a little about cash based transactions and the proper reconciliation of those receipts.

If I told my patrons or Artists, I only pay by check, I'm out of business. I know this is a text based conversation so context is difficult to interpret however you seem to believe that your principals are above a contestants suspicion. That very attitude would blip my radar and I wouldn't patronize your event.

It's a pile of crap that one contest can spoil the spirit of the game but look at what one little airline incident did 11 years ago to what we all have to do just to get on a plane.

I do find it unusual for any organizer much less Shriners be corrupt or crooked but then again the eagles on my ring tell me they (The Shriners) are upright travelers....... I'd like to hear the other side to the story on this one.....

Thanks for the resume but it still does not qualify you to pass judgement on the abilities of my accountants or the financial condition of my organization. I will not bore you with my resume.

As was said earlier by someone else, there are very few contests out there in the pro circuit that pay cash and it has nothing to do with my principals being above a cooks suspicions. I trust them enough to receive a check for their entry and they extend the same trust.

I think your 9/11 analogy is a little overblown but I understand where you're going. I have to travel for work but I do not have to organize or compete in barbecue contests and like I said in the beginning, if I am forced to pay cash because of something a cranial rectal inverted organizer did, I will cease to organize.....so mote it be.

chrisnjenn
09-13-2012, 06:30 AM
Maybe so but in case you missed my opening comment, I don't have to and will not continue to organize any event if i'm forced to pay cash at the awards. That's the bottom line.

No, I caught it. I'm not trying to be argumentative (I have no dog in this fight-I see both sides), but you could quit organizing it and one thing I learned in life through school, family and career is there is always someone who will take your place. Always. I have fired people who were top performers, but felt they were not expendible because they were making our company a lot of money. Everyone is expendible. Everyone is replaceable. Everyone.

roksmith
09-13-2012, 06:46 AM
Don't bet on it.
We all like the growth we have seen in competitive BBQ in the past couple of years. More money to win, more contests to cook at. It's a great thing. But start making lives more difficult on the honest organizers out there, and you will see it decline rapidly. Putting on a contest is not (usually) a big money making event. Organizers do it because although it's a lot of work, it is fun and rewarding. Take away the fun and/or make it more difficult and it won't happen.

I have no problem accepting checks for winnings. I think there is no real reason they cannot be handed out at the awards ceremony though. Waiting for a winnings check in the mail sucks.. but so does waiting until the last minute for entry checks.
Cash may be king, but unless you require all entry forms and payment in 30 days prior to an event, it ain't happening. And that too would drive down participation. Not too many teams are willing or able to pay for something too far in advance.

timzcardz
09-13-2012, 07:47 AM
I read through ALL of this, and the only thing that I've gotten out of it is . . .

There is an issue between ONE COMPETITOR and ONE ORGANIZER, that may or may not be the result of something other than the competition itself, but yet, with only one side of the story, the knee jerk reaction of many is to rewrite the rules for sanctioning.

Makes no sense at all to me.


I think that it is good that the OP let people know that payment was stopped, in case others were experiencing the same thing. However, it would have been a lot better if it was also made known in the original post that there were other issues involved as well, rather than placing that it in the middle of a post last later.

Bentley
09-13-2012, 08:40 AM
Does KCBS have a written policy that a Member or competing team can view that shows how a situation like this will be handled?

djqualls
09-13-2012, 08:45 AM
Thanks for the resume but it still does not qualify you to pass judgement on the abilities of my accountants or the financial condition of my organization. I will not bore you with my resume.

As was said earlier by someone else, there are very few contests out there in the pro circuit that pay cash and it has nothing to do with my principals being above a cooks suspicions. I trust them enough to receive a check for their entry and they extend the same trust.

I think your 9/11 analogy is a little overblown but I understand where you're going. I have to travel for work but I do not have to organize or compete in barbecue contests and like I said in the beginning, if I am forced to pay cash because of something a cranial rectal inverted organizer did, I will cease to organize.....so mote it be.

Based on the information you provided on your accountants, you made it easy to form an opinion

I've cooked 17 KCBS so far this year. Four wrote checks. ( Sam's and another whom the organizer was very open about losing $20,000 on the contest) the others were Chamber of Commerces who had pre filled checks.

I'm quite sure you're resume would impress me. Have a nice day. I'm curious, what contests do you run?

Fornia
09-13-2012, 08:53 AM
I'm pretty confident that comment regarding 9/11 should be deleted from this thread.

Awful analogy and a poor choice of words... and should not be mentioned in a thread about a BBQ contest regardless.

Grizmt
09-13-2012, 09:51 AM
Sounds like you boys are cooking the wrong contests. I've cooked everything from unsanctioned events to Arlie Bragg productions and never been stiffed in ten years. Come on over to Xenia and I'll show you how simple it is.
It seems you've been lucky if you read the posts in this thread and heard the many stories at events on delayed,short payments and figure there's got to be many more teams who aren't represented here (or anywhere) that've had issues.

As for this being the only event to have issues, I beg to differ. Just ask the California teams about who's cheated them, many other states have stories as well.
The thought that if it's only "10 out of 300" so it's no big deal is flawed in several respects. 10 in what time frame? This month? This year? At all? Then you've got all the teams that are victims of these "10 bad events". If they just paid down to 5th place that's 50 teams who were cheated out of their hard earned money. So, how many (or who) have to be cheated before it becomes a big deal? You,your brother,father and mother,kids,best friend,your neighbor? At what point is it enough?
Kind of brings things into perspective doesn't it?

Like I said before, if KCBS would require escrow of funds prior to the event as they've done in the past with some events this would become a non-issue. Worst case they could require a performance bond to cover the payouts if there's a default.

I think it's a shame that such a conversation even has to take place and can understand how honest,upstanding business people who run clean events would get upset thinking they're being tarred with the same brush. I don't think that's the case, I think that these issues are just finally coming to a head and that teams (understandably) just want some protection from deadbeats or late-payers from the beginning. There isn't any at this point.

Unfortunately when it comes to money, especially larger sums the ethics and mortality of some people fade into the dark.

HarleyGirl14226
09-13-2012, 10:13 AM
It's a pile of crap that one contest can spoil the spirit of the game but look at what one little airline incident did 11 years ago to what we all have to do just to get on a plane.

How offensive to refer to the tragedy of 9/11 as "one little airline incident". Those affected consider your statement disgraceful.

bbqczar
09-13-2012, 10:46 AM
Based on the information you provided on your accountants, you made it easy to form an opinion

I've cooked 17 KCBS so far this year. Four wrote checks. ( Sam's and another whom the organizer was very open about losing $20,000 on the contest) the others were Chamber of Commerces who had pre filled checks.

I'm quite sure you're resume would impress me. Have a nice day. I'm curious, what contests do you run?



I also have cooked 8 years worth of contests and have had only about 6 checks in 8 years !!! So,it must be an ,east of the Rockies thing,thats the only thing I know,99.9% of all contests out west pay in cash and some have pay-outs well over 25K,so it isn't any problem at all to have pay-outs in cash ,it's just an excuse by some for no real reason,they just don't feel like doing it and I don't know why,sure would save problems like we are discussing here.

bbqczar
09-13-2012, 10:51 AM
I read through ALL of this, and the only thing that I've gotten out of it is . . .

There is an issue between ONE COMPETITOR and ONE ORGANIZER, that may or may not be the result of something other than the competition itself, but yet, with only one side of the story, the knee jerk reaction of many is to rewrite the rules for sanctioning.

Makes no sense at all to me.


I think that it is good that the OP let people know that payment was stopped, in case others were experiencing the same thing. However, it would have been a lot better if it was also made known in the original post that there were other issues involved as well, rather than placing that it in the middle of a post last later.


Sorry,that is not correct at all.There have be numerous cases of bounced checks,closed accounts,etc. at competitions,this isn't an isolated case it happens several times a year,just look back at the last 10 years and you will be suprised and may even understand why cash would be the best way to go for this and again it would eliminate this problem forever,everywhere.Easy problem to fix and I bet ALL would agree if they ever have the misfortune of going thru this.

Teamfour
09-13-2012, 10:54 AM
It's a pile of crap that one contest can spoil the spirit of the game but look at what one little airline incident did 11 years ago to what we all have to do just to get on a plane.



This is so offensive on many levels. IMHO, this poster is not worthy of being a Brethren.

djqualls
09-13-2012, 11:20 AM
This is so offensive on many levels. IMHO, this poster is not worthy of being a Brethren.

Yes I don't know why I typed little, I mean no disrespect to the tragedy.

Thanks for policing the forum since July.

nthole
09-13-2012, 11:48 AM
Yes I don't know why I typed little, I mean no disrespect to the tragedy.

Thanks for policing the forum since July.

This is a pretty common phrase used when people use the word 'little' with the point that it's an extreme exaggeration. You didn't really read that comment and think the guy was actually saying it was a little event did you!?!?

Bad timing given that it was this week, but I think it's a stretch to want to toast the guy up as an enemy of the state and Brethren.

It's a valid point about how one occurrence can have a broader impact. The butterfly flaps it's wing...

Instead of a roast how about we stay on topic? How many events like these would eventually, if ever, cause KCBS to alter their policies? Should it ever? Right now it appears no one else has had this issue, so more and more it's looking like it may be because of a specific occurence.

CivilWarBBQ
09-13-2012, 01:42 PM
What we are seeing in this thread is exactly why KCBS has never put up a forum of their own. While this type of media is a great way to exchange information of interest to specific communities, it also functions as a huge gossip fountain and rumour mill.

On these often-anonymous forums, titanic debates rage over scraps of information and disinformation, all sparked by a random post that may or may not be factual, probably doesn't include the whole story and most certainly is flavored by the personal motives of the originator. In the end the original issue gets obscured as egos and bruised feelings move to the fore.

I think the take-away from this thread is that there were some problems at a contest in Myrtle Beach. This will not change the status quo for all events nationwide, and that is as it should be.

TooSaucedToPork
09-13-2012, 02:28 PM
Dang ya'll simmer down...

One fricken contest screwed up and it caused a waterfall of crazy comments that caused a bunch of ya to "not act like Brethren".

Yeah, bad 9/11 reference, but even I, a guy whose cousin was in the army section at the pentagon, and on that day my girlfriend was AT the WTC understood it was sarcasim.

The sport has grown...and with it grows problems. Just a few short years ago you had 75% less contests with most organizers in it for the Love not the money. Now, like any other American Fad...yes BBQ has become yet another fad...certain people have zeroed in on it and are looking to make a buck doing what is cool...Many do not have the Love of BBQ we do, many see us as $$$$$$ and this will pass. We will become less of a fad in the coming years as the BBQ craze fades. You just gotta weather the storm and expect that this will happen more and more until it gets better.

It sux but its the truth.

The Brethren will still be here cooking when the fad ends...We were here before the surge of fans, we will be here long after, because unlike the guys that see $$$$ we do it for the Love of Q...

Neil

Rolling Smoke
09-13-2012, 03:14 PM
No, I caught it. I'm not trying to be argumentative (I have no dog in this fight-I see both sides), but you could quit organizing it and one thing I learned in life through school, family and career is there is always someone who will take your place. Always. I have fired people who were top performers, but felt they were not expendible because they were making our company a lot of money. Everyone is expendible. Everyone is replaceable. Everyone.

Since we're sharing lessons learned in life, one of my favorite ones is to not assume anything.

While you're absolutely right about everyone being expendable, it has nothing to do with this particular situation and I'm at a loss for why you even brought it up. I do not organize contests for a living. Furthermore, I do not benefit financially in any sense of the word from the events that I organize nor does anyone on my staff. It is strictly voluntary and the proceeds from the events go to the Fisher Nightingale House to provide temporary quarters for the families of service men and women who are in military hospitals. Sort of a Ronald McDonald house for veterans, if you will.

It's not likely that I will be fired from this position because nobody else would have it. Besides, the llc that backs the contest is in my name.

chrisnjenn
09-13-2012, 03:18 PM
I assumed you didn't get paid and you volunteered your time. Guess my assumption was correct after all.

My post was general in nature and not specific nor was it necessarily directed to anyone in particular. My mistake was quoting your post.

It is a good thing you are doing. I hope you continue it.

Rolling Smoke
09-13-2012, 03:19 PM
I'm curious, what contests do you run?

I founded the Kettering Ohio contest and organized it for the last five years and now I am starting a new event in Xenia Ohio.

Rolling Smoke
09-13-2012, 03:49 PM
What we are seeing in this thread is exactly why KCBS has never put up a forum of their own. While this type of media is a great way to exchange information of interest to specific communities, it also functions as a huge gossip fountain and rumour mill.

On these often-anonymous forums, titanic debates rage over scraps of information and disinformation, all sparked by a random post that may or may not be factual, probably doesn't include the whole story and most certainly is flavored by the personal motives of the originator. In the end the original issue gets obscured as egos and bruised feelings move to the fore.

I think the take-away from this thread is that there were some problems at a contest in Myrtle Beach. This will not change the status quo for all events nationwide, and that is as it should be.

Couldn't agree with your more Gowan. Had I known it would cause this much debate, I would have never made the comment about refusing to pay in cash. Damn, I said it again! :redface:

sdbbq1234
09-13-2012, 06:08 PM
Good grief gurdy!! This thread has taken on a life of its own......

If all comps were like this, I don't think there would be any comps left to attend; nobody would go!!!

wallace

Red Valley BBQ
09-13-2012, 09:02 PM
:deadhorse:

NRA4Life
09-14-2012, 05:54 AM
I founded the Kettering Ohio contest and organized it for the last five years and now I am starting a new event in Xenia Ohio.

Jim always runs on a good competition and I'm looking forward to Xenia this year.

hogzgonewild
09-14-2012, 07:21 AM
:deadhorse:

I think the best information I got out of this thread was the fact that we have a "Beating a dead horse" emoticon. Now that is awesome!

chrisnjenn
09-14-2012, 08:11 AM
What I find funny is the very people who are complaining about this thread are the ones who have bumped it to the top the last few posts (from yesterday afternoon to now). They are the ones beating the dead horse. The rest have stopped posting about it.

bbqbrad
09-14-2012, 08:18 AM
So.... what happened to the stop payment?

bbqczar
09-14-2012, 11:57 AM
What I find funny is the very people who are complaining about this thread are the ones who have bumped it to the top the last few posts (from yesterday afternoon to now). They are the ones beating the dead horse. The rest have stopped posting about it.

Yep,I quite posting because we get paid cash out west here so like I said there is an easy,simple(even a caveman would agree) solution to take care of what happened at Myrtal Beach and what happens SEVERAL times a year around the US at other comps,like I said this ISN"T an isolated incident whether some want to believe it or not.And of course everyone says,"don't change the rules,stay the same" UNTIL it happens to them and then they will suddenly want things changed.

motoeric
09-14-2012, 08:40 PM
I'm certainly no expert, but a quick tip from the Grill Scouts to avoid stop payments and other shenanigans is to turn in sub-par BBQ.

We've learned that you don't have to be concerned about cashing checks that you don't receive.

Eric

bigsapper
09-15-2012, 01:35 PM
I'm certainly no expert, but a quick tip from the Grill Scouts to avoid stop payments and other shenanigans is to turn in sub-par BBQ.

We've learned that you don't have to be concerned about cashing checks that you don't receive.

Eric

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. :biggrin1:

CivilWarBBQ
09-15-2012, 05:45 PM
I'm certainly no expert, but a quick tip from the Grill Scouts to avoid stop payments and other shenanigans is to turn in sub-par BBQ.

We've learned that you don't have to be concerned about cashing checks that you don't receive.

Eric

Best comment in the entire thread! Tragically true!