PDA

View Full Version : Competition Input to KCBS From Teams


Jeff_in_KC
11-11-2005, 07:45 PM
Guys, tomorrow, if everything works out right, I'm going to attend a meeting in Lenexa, KS from 1 to 4 pm Central time where competitive team cooks can voice their opinions and suggestions about everything to do with contests to the KCBS Board of Directors. If there is anything in particular that you all would like me to mention, please let me know here. I'll check it before I leave. I think there was something in the Bullsheet about it recently if I remember correctly. From what Lana Hall told me today, Rod is going to be involved with this. Is that correct, Rod?

OK update... just found my Bullsheet and it's the Rules and Regulations Annual Meeting. Anyway, at THIS TIME, I'm planning to attend.

The_Kapn
11-11-2005, 08:21 PM
Jeff,

This should be an interesting meeting.
I am sure you will get lots of great insight.

I am also sure you will represent Big Creek BBQ Team well with your questions.

Let us know how it goes.

Enjoy,

TIM

Jeff_in_KC
11-11-2005, 08:25 PM
Unless I can come up with anything specific from Brethren before then or based upon other questions people have, I am mainly going to listen and hopefully report something of value back here to the Brethren. Unlike my contests, I'll try to take a lot of notes!

BrooklynQ
11-11-2005, 08:49 PM
Ask them why you can't use Kale for garnish.
Also why the hell is cilantro allowed? I hear there's a long story behind that rule.
Why is frying not ruled out?

Smoker
11-11-2005, 09:04 PM
If I'm judging and I buy a teeshirt from a team can I wear it in the judges tent?

Can I wear any teams logo in the judges tent?

Can a team be disqualified if they win GC and I drank with them before I judged?

Can I cook with a team before meat inspection if I am judging in the contest the next day?

The_Kapn
11-11-2005, 09:19 PM
If I'm judging and I buy a teeshirt from a team can I wear it in the judges tent?

Can I wear any teams logo in the judges tent?

Can a team be disqualified if they win GC and I drank with them before I judged?

Can I cook with a team before meat inspection if I am judging in the contest the next day?
My personal opinion on the first two questions are just "use logic":
Each would be totally unprofessional on the part of the Judge.
I am sure the board would agree and make a rule if someone insists.
"Stroke of the pen" for them for a simple question.

The second two questions are asking for rules to solve a problem where none really exists--unless teams and judges are not aware of their surroundings and their roles.
We have had a great and informative discussion about this as it affects the Brethren. The consensous is to keep good seperation in our attire and actions and to "be professional" in how we present ourselves to the public. We have taken steps to elevate the "awaremess" and stop any problem before it starts http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif
To elevate this to a "rules committee" is asking for answers you and we really do not want http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif

Be careful what you ask for!

JMHO.

TIM

kcpellethead
11-11-2005, 09:29 PM
To Jeff: See you there. I will run the "Judging" portion of the meeting that happens after the "Rules" part of the meeting is finished. If you need any directions call my cell phone tomorrow. (913) 238-1544

To Smoker: If you're serious, I'd be happy to take a shot at answering your questions, although I think Tim did I good job. However, I don't think you are. I 'd be curious to know how many contests you've cooked or judged. Thnx and just let me know.

Jeff_in_KC
11-11-2005, 10:11 PM
Thanks, Rod! Looking forward to it! Lana gave me pretty good directions. Everyone knows where Old town Lenexa is I think!

WAYNE - Are you planning on attending this meeting? If so, let's hook up and carpool. I could meet you at the Commuter Parking lot at 50 and 7 Highways.

Smoker
11-12-2005, 01:21 PM
To Jeff: See you there. I will run the "Judging" portion of the meeting that happens after the "Rules" part of the meeting is finished. If you need any directions call my cell phone tomorrow. (913) 238-1544

To Smoker: If you're serious, I'd be happy to take a shot at answering your questions, although I think Tim did I good job. However, I don't think you are. I 'd be curious to know how many contests you've cooked or judged. Thnx and just let me know.

Rod,

I am serious but if the majority of the Brethren don't want to officially bring this up to the KCBS people I'm fine with that. I do feel that the answers to those questions will eventually HAVE to be answered by them when someone does complain that I spent time in a brethren pit area and then judged and the group I spent time with won GC. I may not have even wore a hat or a shirt that had our logo but someone who lost found out that I judged and he didn't win and he puts 2 and 2 together and gets 5.

If there are no rules stating I can't hang with a group and then judge then I don't want to hear complaints from sore losers. If I am told what the rules are, I will abide by them.

I cooked with Phil and BrooklynQ at Asbury and Highland. I have not judged yet as I got certified this past September. I do plan to continue cooking and judging, just to keep meeting all of the great people I have met since I started. I just want to have fun and meet people. I'm certainly not going to drive out of state to judge a contest where I can't interact with all of these great people.

Luv ya'll

Steve

Jeff_in_KC
11-12-2005, 10:25 PM
OK guys... here it is. Rod, please fill in any blanks that I may create with my post...

The way I understand it, the following items that were accepted via majority vote of the 35-40 present at this meeting will now be presented to the entire board at KCBS for consideration:

1. It was suggested via email that KCBS require 8 separate and identifiable pieces in a box rather than just six. Most in attendance were in agreement that this was not a good idea because sometimes, it's hard enough to find 6 good pieces. Most cooks there said they'd be happy to give the table captains and other volunteers a half tray of samples when they went to turn in their entry and just leave boxes at six. There was some discussion of going to ten inch boxes but I don't think that garnered much support.

2. An email from a judge suggested going from "garnish optional" to "garnish prohibited". It was motioned to accept this and seconded just so we could vote it down and move on without getting into a debate that likely would have gone on into the evening! It was overwhelmingly in favor of keeping garnish.

3. We then went over all 25 rules in the KCBS cooks manual. In regards to rule #1, there was a lot of debate about what constitutes a legal entry in a contest. The complaint was that some contests were apparently bringing in "chicken cookers" to turn in nothing but chicken but thereby getting the required number of teams to make the event a qualifier or in some cases a triple points contest. It was felt this was skewing the team of the year point standings and some teams were reportedly "strong-arming" contest organizers to be sure there were enough teams to make it triple points. To be honest, there was so much debate, I can't recall what, if anything got settled.

4. There was a debate on what should be required on chicken. Paul Kirk moved that KCBS adopt a rule stating that only whole or half chickens or cornish game hens were legal. This was overwhelmingly voted down by the group.

5. It was suggested that the description of a "9" score be changed from "excellent" to "perfect". Again, this was not accepted.

6. Rule 5-B stating the conditions for reheating food came into question. Some wanterd to eliminate it completely to prohibit all re-heating of food. This was rejected. However, it was approved to suggest to the board that they add the word "or" between 5A and 5B.

7. Rule 21 - Marking and sculpting - In regards to marking, it was suggested that it be specifically defined or eliminated if it could not be defined. It was finally decided to suggest that KCBS remove the word "sculpting" altogether and keep "marking". Personally, I believe the words need further definition but apparently if the board agrees, next year, you'd be able to arrange your pulled pork in a smiley face in your tray! :mrgreen: Or like one guy there said... a team member of theirs got them disqualified in pork because he made a "volcano" outof the meat and coming out of the center, he filled with sauce like it was lava! hahaha! They got DQ'd for sculpting AND puddling of sauce!

8. Brother Rod motioned that KCBS change the definition of ribs to include having a bone attached to the meat (bone-in). Must be turned in one bone per piece. It was unanimous in favor of this. There was a question about what if it was overcooked and the bone came out of the meat when picked up from the box. This rule would not DQ that.

9. It was suggested that the mention of sausage in rule 3 because KCBS doesn't address beans, desserts, side dishes, sauces, etc. so why sausage? It was voted to accept this.

10. In regards to rule #22, it was suggested to remove the first five words ("To simplify the judging process...") and just say "No side sauce containers...". This was accepted.

11. There was a big debate on removing 6 as the starting point for judges. This one went on and on. Some felt they should start at 9 and go down. Others felt there should be no designation, just the 2 through 9 range. It was decided (I think anyway) to not suggest to the board that anything be changed and to give the current new system at least a second year to work before the KCBS jumps into another chance.

12. The next thing was interesting because I recall us discussing here the merits of allowing chopped, pulled or diced brisket to be turned in and who was teaching in his class that this should be considered a sign of an overcooked brisket. It was interesting that this came up and the CBJ trainer in question was there today! :wink: I wonder what he was thinking but it was approved that it be suggested to the board to SPECIFICALLY say in the rules that this kind of brisket prep is legal.

13. I almost forgot this because I didn't start writing notes immediately. I was busy socializing! :mrgreen: Anyway, an email brought up the issue of having seen many cooks licking fingers during turn-in time. It was suggested that something be addressed on this. To be honest, I think most people were grossed out by the thought and from what I recall, nothing was made official as a stance by the cooks.

Rod then took over the judging part after the rules part was completed. The following were some of the things that came up. I think I missed some because I was sampling the grub on hand!

1. There was a suggestion that all judges be given a laminated card at the contests that summariazed the rules and KCBS guidelines for them. Didn't seem to be too much support for this idea.

2. It was suggested that to help cooks understand the standards being taught in CBJ classes that the KCBS publish a flyer with standards on them and make them available at all contests along with the cooks manual and to possibly add them to the CD played at cooks meetings and be sure cooks at the meetings were versed in what the standards taught would be. This went over well and might be something I'd expect to see in 2006.

3. A suggestion came in to disallow the use of or possession of plastic untensils by the judges at the judging table. Someone made a point that what if a smoker with nicotine stained fingers grabbed a pile of pulled pork and then someone else had to reach in, it might not be too appetizing. I don't recall the ending on this but I think most were in favor of keeping the untensils. The specific email said it was particularly a problem in the 816 and 913 area codes (the KC area!). I personally didn't see why this was even an issue.

4. An email suggested giving all judges (not just certified ones) a number so they could be tracked and identified in case there was a problem or a pattern of a really flaky judge (my paraphrase on the flaky judge part). This was met with little enthusiasm.

5. Who is allowed in judging tents came up. One contest rep said there was distracting issues when a judge showed up with a baby in the judging area. The age issue was rejected because many teens are very helpful in removing trash, etc. in the judging area. The officially suggested change was to say that only judges, reps and support staff will be allowed in the judging area.

6. Also voted to request that language be added that says "No other activities other than judging will take place in the judging area during judging hours. This came about because someone was upset that at Boone County, they were raffling off the leftover BBQ turn-ins and the judges seemed distracted by this, checking their ticket numbers. I thought it was in poor taste to make another buck off team turn-ins but then again, I don't know the situation. Maybe it was for charity?

7. Finally (and imagine this) it was discussed about allowing judges in the contest area! haha! And neither Rod nor I raised the question! The official suggestion to KCBS will be that judges are not allowed in the contest area after the judges meeting takes place but beforehand is OK. When they say in the contest area, they mean actually where the meat is being prepped and cooked, not necessarily where friends and family are being entertained. It was voted to put this on the CD that's played at cooks meetings so the cooks would be aware of the rule. Interesting.

That's all I got. Rod, if you can think of anything else the Brothers might need to know about, please fill in the blanks I left. I'm sure I misheard something or forgot something but again, everywhere I say it was approved, that means it was voted that these issues be presented to the KCBS Board for consideration for 2006. There was a lot of good discussion and ideas tossed around.

Afterwards, ten of us went to a local bar to grab some dinner and drink some beer. Rod and I were both there so we're calling it a mini bash. Maybe an ultra mini bash. :wink: Had lots of fun, bought some new brisket rub made by Kyle with Orgasmic Slabs (which farkin' rocks!) and learned 4-5 more helpful things to file away for 2006 to hopefully help take my team to another level.

BrooklynQ
11-12-2005, 10:39 PM
Thanks for taking the time to write this up Jeff. Sounds like an interesting meeting.

3. A suggestion came in to disallow the use of or possession of plastic untensils by the judges at the judging table. Someone made a point that what if a smoker with nicotine stained fingers grabbed a pile of pulled pork and then someone else had to reach in, it might not be too appetizing. I don't recall the ending on this but I think most were in favor of keeping the untensils. The specific email said it was particularly a problem in the 816 and 913 area codes (the KC area!). I personally didn't see why this was even an issue.

I've never see utensils in the judges tents. I thought they were not allowed already. Is that only a KC area thing?

Jeff_in_KC
11-12-2005, 10:49 PM
Thanks for taking the time to write this up Jeff. Sounds like an interesting meeting.



I've never see utensils in the judges tents. I thought they were not allowed already. Is that only a KC area thing?

I'm not sure, Rob. Someone else will have to chime in on this. It wasn't mentioned other than that it was happening in area codes 816 and 913 so I'd say possibly so. However, to date, I have not ever been in a judging area so I have nothing to go on.

drbbq
11-13-2005, 08:08 AM
Nice report Jeff.
Thanks.

The_Kapn
11-13-2005, 08:09 AM
Good post Jeff.

Thanks,

TIM

wsm
11-13-2005, 08:53 AM
wow Jeff, you did a great job - Thanks - your report makes me feel better about not being there.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up Jeff. Sounds like an interesting meeting.

I've never see utensils in the judges tents. I thought they were not allowed already. Is that only a KC area thing?
How would you feel about taking food out of a tray that others have put their fingers into? How do you know where my hands have been? How do I know where your hands have been? This is particularly important with pulled meat. If a judge who smokes puts his nicotine laden fingers in the pork and your portion tastes of nicotine, what do you do?:eek:

KCBS (Carolyn Wells) told me that BBQ is finger food, and I use my fingers to carry the food from my plate to my mouth, but I want a serving utensil so others don't stick their fingers in MY food. Others should demand servng utensils especially if they are "downstream" from me!!:wink:

wsm
11-13-2005, 09:34 AM
OK guys... here it is. Rod, please fill in any blanks that I may create with my post...
snip
7. Rule 21 - Marking and sculpting - In regards to marking, it was suggested that it be specifically defined or eliminated if it could not be defined. It was finally decided to suggest that KCBS remove the word "sculpting" altogether and keep "marking". Personally, I believe the words need further definition but apparently if the board agrees, next year, you'd be able to arrange your pulled pork in a smiley face in your tray! :mrgreen: Or like one guy there said... a team member of theirs got them disqualified in pork because he made a "volcano" outof the meat and coming out of the center, he filled with sauce like it was lava! hahaha! They got DQ'd for sculpting AND puddling of sauce!.
ALL RIGHT How can they have a rule against marking if they don't define it? What if you turn in a tray of pork with parsley in all four corners and two seperate sprigs in the center? Is that OK? But what if you tell me (a judge) to look for the pork entry with parsley arranged like that? If you didn't tell anyone what to look for is it OK? Isn't it the describing of the garnish to a judge what makes it illegal? So make describing illegal. Nah, no ethical person would do that, and unethical folks aren't stopped by rules!

12. The next thing was interesting because I recall us discussing here the merits of allowing chopped, pulled or diced brisket to be turned in and who was teaching in his class that this should be considered a sign of an overcooked brisket. It was interesting that this came up and the CBJ trainer in question was there today! :wink: I wonder what he was thinking but it was approved that it be suggested to the board to SPECIFICALLY say in the rules that this kind of brisket prep is legal..
My memory is that the judges CD already says that meats can be presented sliced, pulled or chopped - Would saying specifically that brisket can be presented sliced, pulled or chopped stop my friends here (experienced cooks and farkers) and CBJ teachers from saying that the sine qua non of barbecue is sliced brisket and if it is presented chipped or pulled or sliced paper thin or monster thick, then it was not properly cooked. If sliced brisket is the target, why not require sliced brisket??

Rod then took over the judging part after the rules part was completed. The following were some of the things that came up
snip
4. An email suggested giving all judges (not just certified ones) a number so they could be tracked and identified in case there was a problem or a pattern of a really flaky judge (my paraphrase on the flaky judge part). This was met with little enthusiasm..
Is there some way I can find out how MY judging scores compare with the rest of the tables? That info would really help me understand how I judge.

7. Finally (and imagine this) it was discussed about allowing judges in the contest area! haha! And neither Rod nor I raised the question! The official suggestion to KCBS will be that judges are not allowed in the contest area after the judges meeting takes place but beforehand is OK. When they say in the contest area, they mean actually where the meat is being prepped and cooked, not necessarily where friends and family are being entertained. It was voted to put this on the CD that's played at cooks meetings so the cooks would be aware of the rule. Interesting..

At one contest the judging meeting was at 10 AM - and the first turnin was noon. I was in the team area in the interim, but NOT at prep tables or at the cookers. I hope that it is clear that judges can visit with teams at all times, but NOT be near where the "action" is, the prep tables and the cookers.

Afterwards, ten of us went to a local bar to grab some dinner and drink some beer. Rod and I were both there so we're calling it a mini bash. Maybe an ultra mini bash. :wink: Had lots of fun, bought some new brisket rub made by Kyle with Orgasmic Slabs (which farkin' rocks!) and learned 4-5 more helpful things to file away for 2006 to hopefully help take my team to another level.
Thanks again Jeff for taking notes and posting them for us.

arlieque
11-13-2005, 08:08 PM
I hope no teams gets a DQ or judge for being in the area on Saturday. As a judge why would you want to be near a team on Saturday? I know we all have freinds but lets face it we can stay clear a few hours cant we? As an organizer if a team come to me and state a judge is in the prep area looking at anything, tasting rubs / sauces what am I to do? I can tell you I will DQ that judge. Better to have one judge mad than 25+ teams. I have done it before I will do it again. Guys dont make this hard. Enjoy your friends on Friday evening and after the contest. Most teams have a rope, fence etc so if I were a judge I would not cross that line. The judge I dq'ed drove 350 miles+ and didnt get to judge from tasting a rub / sauce from a team after the judging meeting.

wsm
11-13-2005, 08:22 PM
What the fark is a judge doing tasting a rub/sauce just before a competition????? DQ his farkin' butt!

Using the analogy of a house - can a judge sit in the parlor and visit - as long as keeps out of the kitchen?? Why not?? I don't go near prep tables, I stay outside, away from the action. What's the problem? Touch a cooker? NOT ME!!, but I might touch a cooler or a coffee pot but only to get another.

IMHO if you limit judges "visiting" with friends, you will get only unfriendly judges. Perhaps the rule should be written so that it is clear that judges can visit, but the must keep out of the "kitchen"

And do you schedule the judges meeting so it ends HOURS before turn ins? NAH, you are too experienced to do that.

arlieque
11-13-2005, 08:42 PM
Does need some work doesnt it....I try to give only 30 to 60 minutes before judging starts

wsm
11-13-2005, 08:45 PM
Right Arlie, idle hands are the devil's playthings!

I am looking forward to the time that I can judge at one of your contests.

BrooklynQ
11-13-2005, 09:07 PM
Arlie does give good contests. Guitarbeque is always extremely well run.

arlieque
11-13-2005, 09:11 PM
I often wonder why we have some many gray area's.

BrooklynQ
11-13-2005, 09:24 PM
I often wonder why we have some many gray area's.

I wonder that too. But as long as the hair stays in, I don't care what color it is!

The_Kapn
11-13-2005, 09:37 PM
Arlie,

I will be glad to jump on that question.
Without going into the details, I was "at the top" of Army Aviation for 13 years before I retired.
We literally "made the rules" that folks around the world had to live with.
I will tell everyone right now--"be careful what you ask for, you might just get it" http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

There are people that just must "have a rule" for everything.
They can not accept the concept that "guidance" is totally preferable to "iron clad" rules.
The more you have rules for every possible contingency, the more everyone becomes a robot.

In the current hot topic around here-- "judges conduct"--common sense should prevail--not more rules.
Now that we have elevated our awareness to the potiential problems, they should never arise in the future IF folks just use their head and stay alert to what is happening.

We can get bogged down in the minute details--or we can just say "it will work fine" and move on. We can let it go if we want.

"Gray areas" are what Reps are for, God bless them and I do not envy their job!!!
But, human decision making, on the spot, is so much better than a 3 inch thick rule book. IMHO http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif
Been there, done that, except it was many volumns of conflicting "rules" http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

FWIW

TIM

BBQchef33
11-13-2005, 11:17 PM
Just chiming in.

utensils were in ALL the boxes in the Key largo judges tent. They were for serving, not eating with. i was always brought up with a serving spoon in the serving dishes.. and it is UNCOOL to lick the spoon and put it back in the serving dish.

Look at it this way.. Your next to me at the judges table. I eat the chicken, lick my fingers, eat the ribs, lick the fingers, then pork comes and stick those yummy sticky licked lotta times fingers into the pulled pork and pull out a portion. Then hand you the box to take some...

bet you wish i used a serving spoon dont ya.? :twisted: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...

Sawdustguy
11-14-2005, 12:11 AM
Uhhhhhhh, that would scheve me out big time.

rbinms33
11-14-2005, 01:20 PM
Look at it this way.. Your next to me at the judges table. I eat the chicken, lick my fingers, eat the ribs, lick the fingers, then pork comes and stick those yummy sticky licked lotta times fingers into the pulled pork and pull out a portion. Then hand you the box to take some...

It happened.....and I picked from the other side.