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View Full Version : What happened last weekend in McMinnville, TN that warrants a special KCBS BOD meeting?


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Leatherheadiowa
08-14-2012, 10:45 PM
I see that the KCBS BOD is meeting tomorrow to, "*1.* Discussion of an incident and disciplinary action resulting from inappropriate behavior at the contest in McMinnville, TN."

What happened?



Http://kcbs.us/news.php?id=538

BKBBQ
08-14-2012, 11:34 PM
I wonder what moral turpitude means.we may find out tomm.

Midnight Smoke
08-15-2012, 12:46 AM
I wonder what moral turpitude means.we may find out tomm.


moral turpitude n. gross violation of standards of moral conduct,vileness, such that an act involving moral turpitude was intentionally evil, making the act a crime.

dosvans
08-15-2012, 07:24 AM
Some guy was wearing an apron that had fake mens genitals hanging from the front. Not only was he sitting at awards with it on, but he wore it up when his team got a call. The worst part is that there were a lot of very young kids at the awards.

smokinb
08-15-2012, 07:35 AM
That's immature. I'm shocked he got a call with such poor judgement. I'm also shocked he didn't have a parent of young kids rip it off him.

Leatherheadiowa
08-15-2012, 07:54 AM
I would like to say I am surprised but now a days there isn't much that shocks me. I don't want to sound like a complete prude but some of the actions of people at contests are getting out of hand. I like to have fun just as much as anyone, ok almost anyone but when bbq is a family event then people need to realize that the kids at the contest sites don't need to be exposed to actions like this guys and some other things that people think are funny when they are actually plain crude. It doesn't happen often and bbq'rs seem to self police so when the BOD meets about it they must have had plenty of complaints. Great work out of the BOD to take action and great job in someone reporting it.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
08-15-2012, 08:38 AM
if my wife,kid and mother in law drove 2+hours to watch awards (which they do often) and had to put up with that Id be po'ed. I probably would actually ask them to leave and make the 2+ hour drive home. Not cool at all.

what can happen to this "team"?

Jorge
08-15-2012, 08:48 AM
what can happen to this "team"?

They will be given the opportunity to appear (call in) and explain their side of the story and answer questions from the board. The board will take that into consideration, along with other information available and determine what if anything should be done.

The rules as they exist contain some options.

TRS
08-15-2012, 08:50 AM
Very unfortunate.

Pigs on Fire
08-15-2012, 09:07 AM
Yeah, it's a shame that 30+ teams there didn't have the cajones to walk up to these jackholes and say "take that stupid ____ off."

Either people are going to have to start standing up to these morons in society or it's just going to get worse. Stop being skeert of hurting someone's feeeeeeelings or embarrassing someone.

Cue's Your Daddy
08-15-2012, 10:00 AM
They will be given the opportunity to appear (call in) and explain their side of the story and answer questions from the board. The board will take that into consideration, along with other information available and determine what if anything should be done.

The rules as they exist contain some options.

What can they possibly explain. Guys a loser. Get rid of him. People try to be funny and think this is so cool. Nice job by the board.

Balls Casten
08-15-2012, 10:03 AM
Probably ought to hear more before passing judgement on the guy.

Jorge
08-15-2012, 11:02 AM
Folks, I'd suggest that this might be a good time to wait and see what happens. Besides the folks that were actually there, the board has a more complete picture and more info than you are likely to find in this thread;)

As a member of the board I'll wait until everything is presented tonight to make any decision, and base it on the best information available at that time. EVERYBODY deserves a fair opportunity to be heard, and defend themselves.

Ford
08-15-2012, 11:15 AM
I trust the bod to make an informed judgement when facts are known. If the reps did nothing to warn the offender then I'd hope they get a warning rather than being banned. If it continues then a ban would probably be appropriate.

The bod could be stating a precedent that has far reaching implications. If this becomes cause for a ban then certainly other activities will follow. What would the bod do if it was brought to their attention that teams were committing criminal acts at a contest. Last I saw its illegal to smoke a controlled substance but I've seen it more than once this year.

Pigs on Fire
08-15-2012, 11:30 AM
As a member of the board I'll wait until everything is presented tonight to make any decision, and base it on the best information available at that time. EVERYBODY deserves a fair opportunity to be heard, and defend themselves.


You know, I'd pretty much expect the Board to do that.

But let's not forget that KCBS is a private organization, not a government-run or funded and nobody has 'rights'. Sure, KCBS might afford it's members and contest participants opportunities to explain themselves, but I don't want to see post after post of ignorant people claiming people 'have rights'.

Muzzlebrake
08-15-2012, 11:40 AM
Folks, I'd suggest that this might be a good time to wait and see what happens. Besides the folks that were actually there, the board has a more complete picture and more info than you are likely to find in this thread;)

As a member of the board I'll wait until everything is presented tonight to make any decision, and base it on the best information available at that time. EVERYBODY deserves a fair opportunity to be heard, and defend themselves.

this is the kind of crap answer answer you get when you elect level headed people! Damn you Jorge! I was just about to jump on the "lynch 'em bandwagon"......guess this means we can't tar & feather the guy.
Can we at least throw eggs and protest outside his site at the next contest?:becky:

In all seriousness though, I'm curious to hear the whole story once all of the evidence is presented. While it definitely sounds like this can be filed in the "That's just a bad idea drawer", i can't wait to hear the whole scoop. This almost sounds like a weird but true story:shocked:

nthole
08-15-2012, 12:00 PM
I agree there is some dangerous precedence to set with what happens, and I trust good folks on the board like Jorge will take that into consideration. To me this would be clearly over the top, but then, I have a t-shirt that says 'Boobs, Butts and Thighs - We rub 'em all'. So whats to stop someone from being offended by that and filing a complaint? Tastelessness is unfortunately a very wide gray line. Hopefully the guy that did it comes to his own senses. Self policing is far more appropriate for things like this, but then again, lots of folks are packing and just waiting for a chance to get all hot headed, so I can see where people are leary of approaching someone.

deepsouth
08-15-2012, 12:01 PM
well, the guy certainly has balls.

White Dog BBQ
08-15-2012, 01:11 PM
I agree there is some dangerous precedence to set with what happens, and I trust good folks on the board like Jorge will take that into consideration. To me this would be clearly over the top, but then, I have a t-shirt that says 'Boobs, Butts and Thighs - We rub 'em all'. So whats to stop someone from being offended by that and filing a complaint? Tastelessness is unfortunately a very wide gray line. Hopefully the guy that did it comes to his own senses. Self policing is far more appropriate for things like this, but then again, lots of folks are packing and just waiting for a chance to get all hot headed, so I can see where people are leary of approaching someone.

I think this is a great point, especially the self-policing part. Considering the "Mardi Gras" atmosphere at some contests, as well as the number of team names and logos that (i) are sexually suggestive, (ii) encourage the abuse of alcohol and/or (iii) promote illicit drug use, incidents like this are bound to happen. We are creating an environment for it. I wish all competitors would use a little discretion in their conduct at events.

I am not trying to be a prude, but most of these events occur in public parks and are connected to philanthropic organizations in one way or another. At some point you have to wonder how much the local Jaycees are going to appreciate having their big annual event associated with "Busty Babe's BBQ".

NOTE -- I randomly picked the "Busty Babes BBQ" name. I have no idea if there is a team with that name, and I am not trying to single anyone out.

Pigs on Fire
08-15-2012, 01:42 PM
well, the guy certainly has balls.


Yeah, too bad they are sewn to an apron. Maybe he should look for a hat with brains next time.

Scottie
08-15-2012, 01:48 PM
I bet the guy has bulls balls hanging from his hitch as well.

I have other opinions but will let the BOD handle it. But i guess if the organizer didn't do anything, it sure isn't the cooks responsibility. If he isn't a member how can anything be enforced? I just see a slippery slope. And in no way am i supporting the guys actions, as I do have my girls at my contests.

I can see a certainly baaaahhhbeeeequuuueeee guy getting in trouble for tshirts he wears. When would it stop?

dosvans
08-15-2012, 02:02 PM
But i guess if the organizer didn't do anything, it sure isn't the cooks responsibility.

It was actually the organizer who handed him the award, but I really don't think it matters. Personal responsibility is the key here. The apron wen't beyond any kind of crude t-shirt that I've ever seen in my life. I don't think that anyone said anything when he came up because everyone was so stunned. It was one of those, "I can't believe what I'm seeing" kind of moments. I think the photographer even took his picture when accepting the award. The BOD will decide the outcome, but IMO, the guy deserves to be banned from any KCBS sanctioned events for a period of time.

CBQ
08-15-2012, 02:43 PM
I can see a certainly baaaahhhbeeeequuuueeee guy getting in trouble for tshirts he wears. When would it stop?

I hear ya. Some of those t-shirts, though, require an understanding of the subject matter to get the joke. If kids are too young to get the reference, there is no trauma. That's different from genitals hanging on an apron, I think, which doesn't leave much too the imagination.

Kia ran a general audience TV spot last year talking about threesomes, but the references were indirect. If you don't get it, it comes across as just a slightly odd car commericial.

Fat Freddy
08-15-2012, 02:45 PM
I appreciate Jorge's comments and like he said the BOD does know more info than we will know in this thread. I also appreciate BJ for asking and others telling what was going on. So when I give my thoughts please understand I may be mistaken on what I think but ultimately I agree with many on here. I am a new competitor and have 6 granddaughters under the age of 8 so I would be upset if they had to see something like that.

Ok now where I may p!$$ some people off. I am not really sure that this is a BOD problem especially one that warrants a ban. If anything it is the organizers responsibilty. If not the organizer "maybe" the reps before the BOD gets involved. I personally could even see law enforcement dealing with it BEFORE the BOD is involved. Now if there needs to be some sort of wording so it doesnt happen in the future I am all for it. My big question as a few others have asked is where will it stop. I know of 2 contest i have done where there have been trucks with the "balls" hanging from the hitch area. So now will the reps have to do a meat inspection and then a vehicle inspection? I also know of many many team names that while not deliberately saying something really hint at it, and the extra sayings leave even less to the imagination. While I think they are funny I could see how the names might offend etc etc.

Was this classless? Absolutely!! Was it considerate of others?? No way......But where does it stop, BOD rules on everything that should be common sense?? Seems to me that maybe the organizer should have stepped up and done more. But again let me add for all I know maybe the organizer did we are just not aware of this.

ModelMaker
08-15-2012, 03:05 PM
It was actually the organizer who handed him the award, but I really don't think it matters. Personal responsibility is the key here. The apron wen't beyond any kind of crude t-shirt that I've ever seen in my life. I don't think that anyone said anything when he came up because everyone was so stunned. It was one of those, "I can't believe what I'm seeing" kind of moments. I think the photographer even took his picture when accepting the award. The BOD will decide the outcome, but IMO, the guy deserves to be banned from any KCBS sanctioned events for a period of time.

YOU as the organizer should have had the common sense to TELL him to remove it when it was first noticed. It's your contest that's going to have the bad name associated with such behaviour.
Secondly, whoever it was that was reping this contest should have a warning issued to them from KCBS. Absolutely unacceptable.
Ed

bruno994
08-15-2012, 03:08 PM
I completely agree that the organizers should have done something about this to start with, but suggestive t-shirts and team names are a bit less crude than actual hanging balls from an apron. C'mon...even the Shrek movies are suggestive, but my kids watch them cause there are no nads hanging in front of their faces! I would assume (taking from another recent thread) that this guy falls into "3rd generation" BBQ competitor and is there for more of the party and just happened to get a call. Next time he should leave 'em in his wifes purse.

Jorge
08-15-2012, 03:15 PM
YOU as the organizer should have had the common sense to TELL him to remove it when it was first noticed. It's your contest that's going to have the bad name associated with such behaviour.
Secondly, whoever it was that was reping this contest should have a warning issued to them from KCBS. Absolutely unacceptable.
Ed

What do you know, that I don't, that would warrant action towards any of the Reps that were present?

Scottie
08-15-2012, 03:19 PM
I brought up the tshirt as an example of where the BOD stops being the police. As someone else stated, do reps start checking out hitches for balls?

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
08-15-2012, 03:39 PM
I brought up the tshirt as an example of where the BOD stops being the police. As someone else stated, do reps start checking out hitches for balls?

a little off topic...

as far the the truck nutz, we have never sold them in our shop. They are illegal in Pennsylvania as well as Maryland.

I belive that these events are "family" events and during public hours should be treated as such. To display such an apron at a competition is in poor taste and im sure in retrospect was a bad decision. I also think that a warning when this was 1st seen would have ended it, if not then off to the next step.

Kit R
08-15-2012, 03:42 PM
I think this is a great point, especially the self-policing part. Considering the "Mardi Gras" atmosphere at some contests, as well as the number of team names and logos that (i) are sexually suggestive, (ii) encourage the abuse of alcohol and/or (iii) promote illicit drug use, incidents like this are bound to happen. We are creating an environment for it. I wish all competitors would use a little discretion in their conduct at events.

I am not trying to be a prude, but most of these events occur in public parks and are connected to philanthropic organizations in one way or another. At some point you have to wonder how much the local Jaycees are going to appreciate having their big annual event associated with "Busty Babe's BBQ".

NOTE -- I randomly picked the "Busty Babes BBQ" name. I have no idea if there is a team with that name, and I am not trying to single anyone out.

Well said. And for the record, to anyone I've ever told that the first idea I had for a team name was "Tube Snake Que" (Degüello BBQ came to me later), believe me when I say now that it was not actually under serious consideration for the reasons Eric noted above.

The_Kapn
08-15-2012, 04:05 PM
I wrote and enforced the rules for Army Aviation for 13 years.

One thing we learned is that "You can not write rules to stop DUMB" :twisted:

I am sure the BOD will do what is appropriate.

TIM

Alexa RnQ
08-15-2012, 04:10 PM
Regardless of the "Where does it all stop?" reasoning, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that depictions of genitalia are not appropriate at a family event. As could just about anybody with two linked neurons.

ModelMaker
08-15-2012, 04:22 PM
What do you know, that I don't, that would warrant action towards any of the Reps that were present?

Well your right, I don't know everything regarding this situation. I'm simply responding to what has been reported here.
I do know that when awards are handed out the KCBS Rep team is present and I fully beleive they were within eyeshot of this guy and being the representatives of this organization should have handled it.

CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION of a team, its
members and/or guests: A cook team is responsible jointly
and severally for its head cook, its team members and its
guests.
a. Excessive use of alcoholic beverages or public intoxication
with a disturbance.
b. Serving alcoholic beverages to the general public.
c. Use of illegal controlled substances.
d. Foul, abusive, or unacceptable language or any language
causing a disturbance.
e. Excessive noise, including but not limited to that
generated from speakers, such as radios, CD players, TVs,
public address systems or amplifying equipment, will not
be allowed during quiet time, designated to start at 11:00
p.m. on contest nights and will last until 7:00 a.m. unless
otherwise determined by the event.
f. Fighting and/or disorderly conduct.
g. Theft, dishonesty, cheating, use of prohibited meats, or
any act involving moral turpitude.
h. Use of gas or other auxiliary heat sources inside the
cooking device.
i. Violation of any of the KCBS Cook’s Rules above, save and
except #9 – 13.

It's in the rules for a reason, and if the reps turned a blind eye to it they should be taken to task for it.
Guys walking around with flailing genitals is not what KCBS is about.
Ed

Pit Master Fraz
08-15-2012, 09:13 PM
Having had a small part in this issue, I gave the apron to the one in question as a gag gift, pertaining to a story he had told the night before. Never thought it would turn into this.

MilitantSquatter
08-15-2012, 09:22 PM
Maybe not the same as this occurence but It's been a few years but on more than one occasion (different contests/different team), I've seen cooks wearing the "statue of David" apron.. they sell them all over the place.

Still I agree, not ideal to be up on stage with it...

Smoke'n Ice
08-15-2012, 09:39 PM
I would question weather the BOD should have any involvement in the nature of dress or freedom of expression of the participants of a contest. They absolutly have say over the contest and rules or conduct for cooking, judginge, etc. but beyond that, it is questionable. The organizer, local governmental body or location owner would be the one to regulate other items.

Fat Freddy
08-15-2012, 10:10 PM
I would question weather the BOD should have any involvement in the nature of dress or freedom of expression of the participants of a contest. They absolutly have say over the contest and rules or conduct for cooking, judginge, etc. but beyond that, it is questionable. The organizer, local governmental body or location owner would be the one to regulate other items.

That was my point just much better stated. :clap:

Sledneck
08-15-2012, 10:13 PM
Everybodys so sensitive these days

jbrink01
08-15-2012, 10:14 PM
I own one of those aprons. It's kept IN the trailer.

daveinwestmont
08-15-2012, 10:24 PM
The actions of this person were in poor taste. No matter what the rules of KCBS state this person truley excersized a lack of respect for others at the event. What ever the outcome of the BOD I hope this person realizes his mistake. These events should promote family envolvement as this past time/hobie needs to keep the whole family involved. My famliy always try to make it out for Saturday and with younger kids I would have found this apron unacceptable and inappropriate. These events should be family safe environments for all ages.

dmprantz
08-15-2012, 10:31 PM
It's very interesting to read what people say about you when they don't know it's you to whom they are referring. As people in this thread know now, or would soon learn from the quick notes, I was on the team in question. There's not a lot to say about the incident itself that hasn't already been said. In a little more detail, my teamate made a very bad decision before awards to wear an inappropriate apron. Personally, I was not involved in the act, nor the decision. I did not walk to, nor sit in awards with my teamate and did not know that he was planning to wear the apron. Still, as a member of the team, the head cook in fact, I am responsible for what was done in the name of the team. We are both very sorry that the event ever happened. Tonight the BOD met, heard from my teammate and myself and voted to the following:

We are banned from competing in KCBS events for a period of three years.
After our ban is complete, we are on probation for two years.

It is much more severe than I thought it would ever be, but I told the BOD that I would accept their punishment, and so I shall. When my teamate asked about the severity, it was said (paraphrased) that they wanted to ensure that competition BBQ remains a family friendly event. I'm guessing that they are sending a message. Those of you with questionable materials at KCBS comps may want to reconsider what you take.

The big comments and clarities that I wanted to bring up, the reps were not at fault at all. We received a single call, and they informed me of the issue after awards. The organizer was not on stage that I saw and told me after the fact that she was not personally offended nor upset. The promoter was calling out the awards and saw the apron first. It has been suggested to me that he could have tried to stop my teammate from getting to the front, but honestly, I didn't see it.

It's been a long night, and I'm sure there will be questions and comments. I know some teams are now very happy to hear this news, and at least one is not.

Goodnight,

dmp

Sledneck
08-15-2012, 10:40 PM
3 years ?? That's ridculous. I can see that guy being banned but not the entire team

BruceB
08-15-2012, 10:54 PM
3 years seems a little stiff.

LTG
08-15-2012, 11:10 PM
Man, I don't agree with the apron choice but they made an example out of you guys. Harsh stuff.

What did your teammate have to say once the sanctions were announced?

Sticks-n-chicks
08-15-2012, 11:13 PM
Are you kidding me? I am sorry to hear that it's seems way to harsh! I edited my message aft retreading what I posted the point I am concerned with is the baseline it represents....

motoeric
08-15-2012, 11:31 PM
This is a bit off topic, but how are things like this enforced?

Are organizers presented with a list of banned teams that they are supposed to check against their competitor list?

What if a team simply changes its name?

And to stay a bit on topic, I agree that it was an idiotic move on the cooks part and I agree that the punishment was a bit draconian.

Eric

bigdogphin
08-15-2012, 11:38 PM
Bad situation all the way around.....

Pack-A-Smokes
08-15-2012, 11:54 PM
Wow! Three years! I was changing in the back seat of my truck once when my wife accidentally opened the door. That would probably bring a five year ban. Way too harsh.

BBQ Church
08-16-2012, 12:04 AM
That's a long time. Seems like the punishment doesn't really fit the "crime".

mjl
08-16-2012, 12:39 AM
Wow. Talk about overkill. In the past 10yrs or so, I have heard of various contest horror stories (drunks, fistfights,handguns, sex in porta potties, reps making up scores, and even briskets being stolen), and this is by far the harshest penalty I can remember. Not very cool if you ask me.

ML

Outnumbered
08-16-2012, 12:42 AM
Sorry, bro. That seems pretty harsh.

Pack-A-Smokes
08-16-2012, 12:54 AM
Wow. Talk about overkill. In the past 10yrs or so, I have heard of various contest horror stories (drunks, fistfights,handguns, sex in porta potties, reps making up scores, and even briskets being stolen), and this is by far the harshest penalty I can remember. Not very cool if you ask me.

ML

Sex in porta potties???????? All I can say is, EEEEWWWWW!:icon_sick

INmitch
08-16-2012, 01:17 AM
3 years......WOW.......The whole crew is gonna be at Madison this weekend (only comp all year the whole crew gets together). A bunch of good guys.........but the little sh!ts like to have fun!!!..........................Kinda has me worried now?????:shocked: Guess I'm gonna be the prick that keeps them in line.....cause ya never know.:confused:

crd26a
08-16-2012, 01:25 AM
Damn - 3 years is fubar. I can understand some sanction / enforcement, but that long for an apron? (Even if its the apron I think it probably is).

Crash
08-16-2012, 05:03 AM
So.... the KCBS BOD felt the need to severely discipline an entire team for what was clearly a poor and misguided apparel decision by one of the team members?? I completely understand that the Head Cook of a team is 100% responsible for his team members and guests, and I definitely agree with some sort of punishment. I guess the key words are "severely discipline".

From what I've read here, this team member was 100% out of line for wearing what he did. I agree that it was distasteful and is definitely something that I would never want my children see. I'd be not so happy to see that an event.

I totally respect DMP for accepting the responsibility for his team. It's a hard pill to swallow, but I absolutely respect the way he handled it here on this forum.

IMO, this punishment is way too severe for the team involved. If this is the new enforcement for violations of KCBS rules, they really need to start looking at censoring team names, enforcing alcohol policies, etc.

IMO of course, and maybe I don't have the full details.

Smoke'n Ice
08-16-2012, 07:31 AM
This event occurred after the contest was over. I would question why KCBS would have any involvment in any form of punshment. It could be said that during the contest, they have some say, but not before the contest begins nor after it is over. I also believe that there could be some type of violation of free speech and freedom of expression and that they may have opened us up to some form of legal action. ACLU may love to be involved in this one.

Ford
08-16-2012, 07:56 AM
Very disappointed in the precedent being set. Who now decides what's appropriate? The answer appears to be the bod. It's alright to turn in a pork box shaped like a pe&us but not wear an apron with a cloth one? Anybody can now complain about a logo and expect it to disappear. What's offensive to some isn't to others.

Good thing it's not the FBA or Dorsey could no longer sing on Friday night. Would the song "I shot my ex wife in the ass with a bb gun" be inappropriate? Great song by the way.

And who is going to police the royal? No more Bobbie boards. No more flashing. under the bod's new policy set last night I can think of a number of bigger name teams that would have been banned.

Ford
08-16-2012, 08:00 AM
DMP. Hats off to you. You showed a lot of class. Hope you can wander around at sams Hendersonville Friday. I'd be proud to shake your hand.

Sledneck
08-16-2012, 08:04 AM
The ONLY action that should of been taken was the team being banned from the contest by the organizer. This is bull sh it. Who knows how to start a petition?

Uncle Buds BBQ
08-16-2012, 08:12 AM
We are banned from competing in KCBS events for a period of three years. After our ban is complete, we are on probation for two years.dmp

I am so sorry for you and your team. I got the chance to meet you at several comps this season and you are a good guy. No way this punishment fits the offense.

DocStl
08-16-2012, 08:19 AM
This event occurred after the contest was over. I would question why KCBS would have any involvment in any form of punshment. It could be said that during the contest, they have some say, but not before the contest begins nor after it is over. I also believe that there could be some type of violation of free speech and freedom of expression and that they may have opened us up to some form of legal action. ACLU may love to be involved in this one.

Freedom of speech doesnt give you the right to say or do what you want.

Dan - 3eyzbbq
08-16-2012, 08:27 AM
Agreed, total BS. Daniel, I'm amazed you just accepted that ban.

mjl
08-16-2012, 08:31 AM
Agreed, total BS. Daniel, I'm amazed you just accepted that ban.

Is there a choice? Can you accept or not accept the BOD ruling? Is there an appeal process? Just curious.

ML

USMC_BBQ
08-16-2012, 08:32 AM
For those that have called him a loser or made other disparaging remarks about a man you do not know. He made a very bad mistake, but he is no loser or degenerate. He served honorably in the Marine Corps to preserve and defend your right to post on this board. He is a great husband and father with a wonderful wife and son. He is also a respected business man in his community. He has cooked competitive BBQ for over 8 years with no prior incidents. It is unfair and wrong to pass such negative judgment on someone’s entire life over 1 bad joke.

virginia lawyer
08-16-2012, 08:44 AM
Am disappointed by the ban - seems an overreaction, particularly to a situation of first impression. Even though I am the father of 3 young girls, and would have been a bit shocked by all this had I been there, I still would have preferred to see a more measured response from the BoD, designed to educate all teams rather than just punish one. Props to dmprantz for his very professional response to all this :clap: - hope you can still attend a comp, even if you can't cook.

To those who speak of freedom of expression, am afraid that doesn't apply here. KCBS is a private club and, as such, can pretty much do what they please (note, for example, the recent cases involving the Boy Scouts and their bans on atheists and homosexuals).

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 08:49 AM
wonder if the brethren board members will chime in now?

Everyone should remember this come time for election.

gmholler
08-16-2012, 08:59 AM
A 3 year ban is a bit much, to say the least. I'm kinda surprised no one told the person to just take the apron off since pictures were going to be taken! I realize the ban was voted on in executive session, but it would've been nice to read what the BOD was considering at the time, what they were driving at with that kind of a response - without knowing that information, the punishment seems too severe and rather unexpected. And it opens up a Pandora's box of questions about what might be considered "moral turpitude" at a BBQ contest.

Lynn H.

WineMaster
08-16-2012, 08:59 AM
Um Jorge, Clean up in isle 3. Your thoughts?

ique
08-16-2012, 09:01 AM
3 years seems a little stiff.

A little? That's brutal. Cheating should get that punishment, a lapse in judgement should not.

deepsouth
08-16-2012, 09:03 AM
oh man, three years plus two probation sounds harsh. the team won't be CLEARED until 2018!!!!

i don't guess i realized that bbq comps were such serious business.

also makes me wonder where this will go from here because i feel like this decision will push some who think it went too far to start recoginzing other things that could be punishable and start pointing them out and expecting punishment to be handed out, in the interest of "fairness".

.....and if i were the team in question, no way i'd support kcbs anymore.

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 09:09 AM
A little? That's brutal. Cheating should get that punishment, a lapse in judgement should not.


did the rep team that got caught forging scorecards and entering fake scores get 3 years?

I honestly can't remember their punishment, but stuff like that...or you know a certain someone accepting a brisket entry after the turn in window closes. should get the hammer, a joke that went to far should get a stiff slap on the wrist and we all move along.

As cooks, why do we seem to get the short end of the stick in all of this?

SCSmoke
08-16-2012, 09:09 AM
I understand setting an example but no way that "crime" deserves that punishment.

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 09:12 AM
any idea who called and complained about it?

dmprantz
08-16-2012, 09:21 AM
did the rep team that got caught forging scorecards and entering fake scores get 3 years?

If it's the incident I'm thinking of, they got kicked out of being reps and invited to reapply after 1 year.

I know of two teams who were deeply offended. Both perennial TOTY contenders.

dmp

Scottie
08-16-2012, 09:27 AM
I just hope that'Sucks' isnt offensive to anyone or I am screwed.... Sirry that is too severe. Cheats dont even get spanked like that.

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 09:29 AM
If it's the incident I'm thinking of, they got kicked out of being reps and invited to reapply after 1 year.

I know of two teams who were deeply offended. Both perennial TOTY contenders.

dmp


it isnt hard to figure out who probably dropped the dime on this one.

There were only a couple of big time teams at that event. It had to be someone with ties to the BOD. I really doubt if I called and complained about a sex reference in a team name, the action would be so swift.

Tack
08-16-2012, 09:30 AM
It seems to me as thought there have been two cases of bad judgement. One by the guy who wore the offending apron and one by the BOD who have come down withan extremely harsh penalty. I was always taught that 2 wrongs don't make a right. Just sayin........................

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 09:30 AM
I just hope that'Sucks' isnt offensive to anyone or I am screwed.... Sirry that is too severe. Cheats dont even get spanked like that.


I am going to be deeply offended by every team that kicks my ass next time out.

nthole
08-16-2012, 09:39 AM
dmp, thank for stepping up and telling your side of the story.

As for the judgement, as already said, CHEATERS don't get such a severe punishment. Is the board off their rocker??? 3 year ban?!?!? Is there any sort of appeals process? This just seems waaaay out of line.

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 09:42 AM
it isnt hard to figure out who probably dropped the dime on this one.

There were only a couple of big time teams at that event. It had to be someone with ties to the BOD. I really doubt if I called and complained about a sex reference in a team name, the action would be so swift.


Also interesting that one of the reps from this contest is a board member.

pigmaker23
08-16-2012, 09:43 AM
Very Interesting how both board members JORGE and STEVE who were elected with the support of this forum and membership with the promise of transparancy have now gone silent on this matter, it would be nice to have them explain the reasoning behind this gross misjustice of the board. I really hope that the people we supported did not support this decision.



Um Jorge, Clean up in isle 3. Your thoughts?

tdwalker
08-16-2012, 09:44 AM
Did we elect Roger Goodell to the board?

nthole
08-16-2012, 09:49 AM
Very Interesting how both board members JORGE and STEVE who were elected with the support of this forum and membership with the promise of transparancy have now gone silent on this matter, it would be nice to have them explain the reasoning behind this gross misjustice of the board. I really hope that the people we supported did not support this decision.

Actually, there are 4 board members that are from this forum. With that said, none of them OWE us an explanation beyond the official BOD statement. Any additional insight they provide is up to them. They are in a difficult position and have to walk a fine line with what they can say that represents themselves and what they say that represents KCBS. We've certainly seen board members go after others to have them removed for far less things than making public posts of internal BOD discussions, for instance, being related.

Candy Sue
08-16-2012, 10:02 AM
THIS IS MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ONLY!!!

Personally, I hate that this situation happened. I am certain that all parties involved are sorry. The board is 11 voting members and me. The range of puntative action considered was across the spectrum from one year to lifetime ban (which is not allowable under the rule -- 5 years is max). The deliberations were long and hard and thoughtful. Most of the statements given above were addressed. A compromise was reached and punishment decided upon. The rep and the organizer who are on the board and who were at the contest, did not vote on the punishment. No one "won" here. Bad joke, bad situation.

THIS IS MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ONLY!! It does not reflect the opinion of KCBS or its board of directors!

nthole
08-16-2012, 10:06 AM
Candy, can you clarify if there is some sort of appeals process for decisions like these? In most judicial situations there are appeals processes, but given the highest authority in KCBS made the decision, I can't figure out what it could be.

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 10:06 AM
THIS IS MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ONLY!!!

Personally, I hate that this situation happened. I am certain that all parties involved are sorry. The board is 11 voting members and me. The range of puntative action considered was across the spectrum from one year to lifetime ban (which is not allowable under the rule -- 5 years is max). The deliberations were long and hard and thoughtful. Most of the statements given above were addressed. A compromise was reached and punishment decided upon. The rep and the organizer who are on the board and who were at the contest, did not vote on the punishment. No one "won" here. Bad joke, bad situation.

THIS IS MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ONLY!! It does not reflect the opinion of KCBS or its board of directors!


sad that in a room of 12 adults, none had any common sense. I guess that is par for the course these days.

Smoke'n Ice
08-16-2012, 10:08 AM
To those who speak of freedom of expression, am afraid that doesn't apply here. KCBS is a private club and, as such, can pretty much do what they please (note, for example, the recent cases involving the Boy Scouts and their bans on atheists and homosexuals).

I can understand that KCBS has the right to ban a team from being a member of the organization and from attending events that they sponsor. ie. annual meeting, but how can they regulate who can attend an event for which they are paid to administer the fair conduct of the contest. I would seem to think that only the organizer has that right.

This would be like the boy scout troop that is paid to administer the trash pickup function, banning anyone who is an atheists or homosexual from attending or competing in the contest.

RangerJ
08-16-2012, 10:10 AM
THIS IS MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ONLY!!!

Bad joke, bad situation.

THIS IS MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ONLY!! It does not reflect the opinion of KCBS or its board of directors!

Compounded by an even worse punishment decision....

timzcardz
08-16-2012, 10:11 AM
Very Interesting how both board members JORGE and STEVE who were elected with the support of this forum and membership with the promise of transparancy have now gone silent on this matter, it would be nice to have them explain the reasoning behind this gross misjustice of the board. I really hope that the people we supported did not support this decision.


Of course! They should have probably been posting here during the board meeting just to keep you up to date. :shocked:

I'm guessing that patience isn't one of your virtues.

Dan - 3eyzbbq
08-16-2012, 10:25 AM
Can we circle back here for a second? So the rule that was broken was that of "moral turpitude"?

WHEN was that rule broken? Was it owning the Apron? Bringing it to the competition? Wearing it at your cook site? Wearing it to awards?

Jorge
08-16-2012, 10:27 AM
Very Interesting how both board members JORGE and STEVE who were elected with the support of this forum and membership with the promise of transparancy have now gone silent on this matter, it would be nice to have them explain the reasoning behind this gross misjustice of the board. I really hope that the people we supported did not support this decision.

I voted for it. I know of nothing, that would prevent Mr. Pomerantz from going back to the board, prior to the three year term ending, and asking to be reinstated.

I've read several opinions that the punishment doesn't fit the offense, or that it's more severe than that given to cheaters. I can understand the point of view and logic. My question would be how do you get to the point where the punishment fits the offense when everything handed down in recent years has been nothing, or one year?

I don't have time to respond to everything. I do want to state publicly that I appreciate and respect the way that Daniel has handled this so far. I know it's not easy, and I believe it shows a lot of class and character.

Sledneck
08-16-2012, 10:30 AM
Will the vote become public? I want to see who im NOT voting for next election

TheJackal
08-16-2012, 10:32 AM
Wow! I can't believe that this got a 3 year ban and 2 years probation. That's absurd! Did anyone notice that another team got 1 year probation? What's the deal there?

http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=539

ModelMaker
08-16-2012, 10:33 AM
Well there you go...
An unfortunate end to a unfortunate situation.
The process worked, a team broke a rule and the group we elected to uphold the ideals of KCBS did what they felt best.
Right, wrong. Agree, disagree the system is working. You always have the option of changing players once a year.
While not expressing my personal opinion on the outcome (it has no bearing here).
I will say I support the actions of the BOD.
Ed

Ford
08-16-2012, 10:41 AM
Interesting question on how the ban works. As a contest is independent of the KCBS could a banned team still compete. Unless there is something in the sanctioning agreement, I'd say that they can compete and win prizes. Hopefully an organizer will comment on the current sanctioning agreement. No requirement to be a KCBS member for contests. The KCBS could remove their name from the results on the KCBS website but I don't think they could stop the team from winning. Maybe the KCBS should only post results for KCBS members and leave the other names blank or put in non KCBS team.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or judge so this is obviously just my opinion.

YankeeBBQ
08-16-2012, 10:41 AM
Will the vote become public? I want to see who im NOT voting for next election

There was no role call vote but if you listen to the meeting you will know who voted for and against it. Even though I argued for a lesser punishment, in the end I voted for the 3 year ban. I thought it was important that I express my view that I thought what happened was wrong and deserved some punishment. Google penis apron and you will see that a majority of the websites that sell it won't even post a picture of it. Then imagine an awards ceremony attended by children as young as 4 years old witnessing a man on stage wearing such a thing. If someone had that on late at night in their cooksite or even came to my site with it I wouldn't be offended. Wearing it on stage is a whole different thing.

MAP
08-16-2012, 10:44 AM
If I am right you don't have to be a KCBS member to compete, that being said if a team is not a member can they be banned?

afreemaniii
08-16-2012, 10:49 AM
I might be blacklisted after this post, but I think it needs to be said. I posted several times on another thread a couple months ago attempting to start a discussion about the KCBS keeping the playing field level for all competitors. The penalty handed down in this case reinforces the theme of my posts, which is to question what the role of the KCBS is today.

Wear an inappropriate apron to the awards ceremony = team banned for 3 years.

Remove meat from the competition site = slap on the wrist and the chance to pull off a miracle.

In the world of competition barbecue, which offense is more harmful to the spirit of competition? Any violation of a rule that is related to meat, cooking of meat, or turn-in of entries would strike me as being a bit more important to a sanctioning body.

Someone else mentioned Roger Goodell. The NFL routinely fines players for wearing the wrong color socks, shoes, towels, etc, but dropped the hammer on the Patriots a couple years ago for illegally filming practices and, more recently, the Saints for their alleged bounty system. Perhaps the KCBS can learn something from them and realize that offenses which affect the "play on the field" deserve more severe punishment than clothing decisions.

Stoke&Smoke
08-16-2012, 10:58 AM
What was the "punishment" for the judge(s) caught drinking before judging a while back?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2

CBQ
08-16-2012, 11:01 AM
Sex in porta potties???????? All I can say is, EEEEWWWWW!:icon_sick

No BOD action needed here. Sex in a porta pottie is its own punishment. :shock:

The IRS charter for a 501(c)3 corporation (which KCBS is) states the corporation can't discriminate on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, disability, or age. That's it. Other than that, they can set their own rules.

I do think that the BOD was correct in applying a punishment, but a 3 year ban is way over the top, especially when compared to a one year ban being applied to reps that forged scores. Cheating and theft ought to merit a harder punishment than bad taste.

Bunny implied the three years was a compromise, and that lifetime bans were being discussed. Really? For an apron? I don't think wearing the apron was a good choice, and some response was needed, but wow.

sitnfat
08-16-2012, 11:04 AM
I am gonna go ahead and trademark , FREE The Q-Team or Daniel or Jessie, shirts now. Thankfully we live in a region with many other non sanctioned contests and MBN.

Diva
08-16-2012, 11:12 AM
[QUOTE=Stoke&Smoke;2178030]What was the "punishment" for the judge(s) caught drinking before judging a while back?

Nothing.

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 11:19 AM
cooks should remember this. Judges and Reps that break the rules, get a slap on the wrist. Cooks get the hammer.

Remember that when it comes time to vote, not only in the KCBS elections, but also with your wallet. Think about which contests you cook, there are options.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
08-16-2012, 11:22 AM
I normally don't involve myself in these political discussions but I felt I had to speak my mind on this one. The board has completely lost it's mind on this decision. The guy did something stupid but a 3 year ban is beyond excessive. The KCBS board should not be the morality police. I'm wondering now what happens to myself if my music has some f-bombs in it? No telling what kind of punishment I might get. Its ludicrous that cheaters and inappropriate judges have gotten slaps on the wrist if anything and a penis apron gets a team 3 years. What a joke. The board should be ashamed of themselves.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
08-16-2012, 11:29 AM
Wow, guess the BOD wants to show that they really have changed! Went from no action to absolutely ludicrous action! However, the reality of the this situation is that the BOD hasn't really changed. Based on the majority of comments here, they are still completely out of touch with their members.
My personal opinion is that they should have been punished but the BOD decision is as equally bad as the decision to wear the apron!!!

Stoke&Smoke
08-16-2012, 11:30 AM
I didn't think so Diva!

Seems like some pretty wide variation in punishment, no? Admittedly, I don't know all the details here, but on the surface at least, this sounds a bit, no, quite a bit, over the top

richardnoodle
08-16-2012, 11:39 AM
I am gonna go ahead and trademark , FREE The Q-Team or Daniel or Jessie, shirts now. Thankfully we live in a region with many other non sanctioned contests and MBN.

wearing that shirt might get you banned! but i might be interested in buying one.

mobow
08-16-2012, 11:48 AM
The BOD has taken alot of heat in the past for not enforcing rules and letting people get away with too much. They can not be said to have done either in this case. I think this punishment is extreme but they have been told the membership wants them to take action when rules are broke and they did. I appreciate the BOD members that have given us their reasons for their vote. Pretty brave and lives up to promise of transparency from them. All that said I think that a worth while task of the BOD would be to develop a pusnishment to rule infraction process that would be a quide to them for future infractions that they have to deal with. In my place of work and I believe many places of employment we have a set progressive disciplinary policy. I think that this current situation is the perfect example of the KCBS needing to move its self into a buissness model of operation rather than what it currently seems to have to work under. keith

carlyle
08-16-2012, 11:52 AM
Rather than try to second guess the BOD or trash their decision over what is now past,
I would like to look to the future.

With a punishment this severe ( 3 year ban) hanging over our heads, we need clear direction from the BOD.

Where is the line? What is permissible with signs, team names, apparel ?

It is now like running around in the fog with a 1000 foot cliff out there you can't see.
One false step and you are off the cliff.

Give us some parameters as cooks, judges, and organizers so we can self police before some other team meets this fate.

Where, as the BOD and ultimate censor, are your limits about what is acceptably suggestive and what is offensive enough to merit punishment.

Also in the interest of fairness to everyone, please give some thought and planning into the overall punishment arena. Which is worse, making up scores or wearing an offensive apron? We as KCBS members should be able to look at the whole range of punishments and see some logic and fairness to everyone.

Now, with this decision, a thick fog is around us all. And the 1000 foot cliff is out there ... somewhere. Improve the visibility, please.

I add my admiration to DMP for his class in a very difficult situation.

LTG
08-16-2012, 11:53 AM
This thread sure will make it easier to decide who not to vote for next election time.

AZScott
08-16-2012, 11:54 AM
Can anyone think of the actions other teams have done to get banned for 3 years? I know of apology letters with no ban but nothing like this. Is there any precedence for this decision?

BruceB
08-16-2012, 11:58 AM
To all the new KCBS BOD members....so, how's your first year going so far?

When I first got into Law Enforcement, my first Chief told me this, "Whatever decisions you make, if you wouldn't mind seeing it on the news on TV or you wouldn't mind seeing it on the front page of the newspaper, and if you think your Mom would be OK with it, it's probably a good decision."

TTNuge
08-16-2012, 12:00 PM
Rather than try to second guess the BOD or trash their decision over what is now past,
I would like to look to the future.

With a punishment this severe ( 3 year ban) hanging over our heads, we need clear direction from the BOD.

Where is the line? What is permissible with signs, team names, apparel ?



You may be right but I don't think anyone can argue that this situation wasn't over the line. Whether that line was clearly distinguished or not it is clear this was over it.

I too think the punishment may be a bit harsh but to be honest, I think it gets the point across and it's not going to happen again. Yes situations regarding cheating, or making up scores hurt the integrity of the competition but you know what, that has no effect on the general public or the 4 year old girl who just saw something that she can't un-see. They are two different situations, one hurts the reputation internally and the other (this) hurts the reputation publicly.

Like was said earlier, definitely no winners here. But I'm glad it probably won't happen again because no one is going to want to face a 3 year ban so it's done it's job.

Sledneck
08-16-2012, 12:01 PM
I know as the head cook you are responsible for your teams actions. That being said I think Dan should of been punished but no where near as extremem as the offender. Was this discussed at all?

cvath
08-16-2012, 12:09 PM
I agree with TTnuge. I don't understand why so many people are against the board's decision on this. I firmly believe they acted.in the best interests of both the sport and KCBS. What if an individual has actually had their real genitalia out while accepting the award? What if a judge had in the judging area? They would likely be facing bans of longer than three years, perhaps permanent. But because this was on an apron it was somehow less offensive and even "free speech"? Three years is fair, in my opinion.

Also, much respect to the team captain for accepting this penalty with class. I hope the three years passes quickly for you and you're able to stay involved in some fashion.

DocStl
08-16-2012, 12:11 PM
[QUOTE=carlyle;2178105]Rather than try to second guess the BOD or trash their decision over what is now past,
I would like to look to the future.

With a punishment this severe ( 3 year ban) hanging over our heads, we need clear direction from the BOD.


I agree 3 years may be a bit too harsh, written warning, 2 yr probation maybe.
But there was a lot more than whats posted on this board that happened.
Maybe some of the teams that cooked the contest and witnessed what happened after awards will chime in.

nthole
08-16-2012, 12:24 PM
I agree with TTnuge. I don't understand why so many people are against the board's decision on this. I firmly believe they acted.in the best interests of both the sport and KCBS. What if an individual has actually had their real genitalia out while accepting the award? What if a judge had in the judging area? They would likely be facing bans of longer than three years, perhaps permanent. But because this was on an apron it was somehow less offensive and even "free speech"? Three years is fair, in my opinion.

Also, much respect to the team captain for accepting this penalty with class. I hope the three years passes quickly for you and you're able to stay involved in some fashion.

If a cook or judge did that they wouldn't need to worry about KCBS. They'd have been arrested.

bbqczar
08-16-2012, 12:34 PM
Well,once again the BOD went overboard with the punishement ! I don't think in any way a 3 year ban fits the crime.I know the crime was foul,dumb,and thoughtless,but 3 years,once again the BOD has failed all of us as members.This is like someone getting a 3 year prison sentence for pissing in public,yes,that is dumb,the person has ACTUAL genitalia that can be seen by children and grown-up's,and it's thoughtless,but NODODY would get a 3 year sentence,probably not even 3 years probation for doing it.I think we all,as members,should really look,learn,and consider what the BOD has done here and then make wise choices come election time,like someone once said,"Fire Da Bums" !

bbqczar
08-16-2012, 12:39 PM
If a cook or judge did that they wouldn't need to worry about KCBS. They'd have been arrested.


Exactly,this isn't even remotely close to the same thing,if someone did that for real,he would be arrested ,BUT guess what I know he still would not get a 3 year sentence for doing that,MAYBE,but probably not,a 3 year probabtion,but actual public indecentcsy does not bring a 3 year sentence,well maybe in Iran,hmmmm where is KCBS headquartered at ?

dmprantz
08-16-2012, 12:46 PM
This is like someone getting a 3 year prison sentence for pissing in public,yes,that is dumb,the person has ACTUAL genitalia that can be seen by children and grown-up's,and it's thoughtless,but NODODY would get a 3 year sentence,probably not even 3 years probation for doing it.

It's very funny and ironic to me that you say this. In May of this year, there was a competition in Ashland, MS. We were at that competition. There was an incident where one team urinated on another team's vehicle, and it was brought before the board, presumably by the organizer, to be discussed at the scheduled board meeting one week before this special board meeting. The punishment levied against this team was a letter stating that KCBS frowned upon innappropriate behaviour. While some of the details aren't there, the fact that there was an incident and its punishment are in the quick notes for that board meeting.

dmp

Untraceable
08-16-2012, 12:51 PM
This is amazing. 3 years for a novelty apron. think about that. Im pretty sure 4yr olds have already seen worse.

drbbq
08-16-2012, 01:19 PM
I once cooked a contest under the name Heywood Jablomee. Got reserve too. Nowadays I'd get suspended :)

bbqczar
08-16-2012, 01:42 PM
It's very funny and ironic to me that you say this. In May of this year, there was a competition in Ashland, MS. We were at that competition. There was an incident where one team urinated on another team's vehicle, and it was brought before the board, presumably by the organizer, to be discussed at the scheduled board meeting one week before this special board meeting. The punishment levied against this team was a letter stating that KCBS frowned upon innappropriate behaviour. While some of the details aren't there, the fact that there was an incident and its punishment are in the quick notes for that board meeting.

dmp

EXACTLY my point,I think the BOD doesn't mind if you REALLY, whip it out in public,they like the real thing,just don't have in on a novelty apron THAT will get you a 3 year suspension.The BOD should be ashamed at the decision they came to,not proud,they didn't do the right thing,came to a rash decision,and just simply made a bad decision on punishment.

Ford
08-16-2012, 01:46 PM
Ray, Just think of the problems if a new team had taken your suggestion for a team name. Meat beaters was a great idea in its time but not today. Amazing how the sport has grown and what it means. I've seen those aprons for years but never at awards. Even heard a funny story about the wife of a championship Iowa cook reacting to one but won't repeat it here.

nthole
08-16-2012, 01:51 PM
Ford makes a good point about there being more public insight into contests now, through tv and increased teams. Remember, there was a time when if a cop stopped you driving and you were drunk he probably knew your mother/brother/sister/father and would just drive you home.

YankeeBBQ
08-16-2012, 01:54 PM
Exactly,this isn't even remotely close to the same thing,if someone did that for real,he would be arrested ,BUT guess what I know he still would not get a 3 year sentence for doing that,MAYBE,but probably not,a 3 year probabtion,but actual public indecentcsy does not bring a 3 year sentence,well maybe in Iran,hmmmm where is KCBS headquartered at ?
Actually it's nothing like getting a 3 year sentence for public urination. Nobody is going to jail.

Scottie
08-16-2012, 01:55 PM
I may not agree with the end result. Maybe they can readdress the incident and lessen the crime. I just cant see the integrity of the kCBS being dragged down anymore than reps drinking, judges drinking before a contest or reps fudging scores. Now those 3 incidents affects the integrity of the KCBS more so than a stupid decision at awards. Especially if the BOD realizes if they can suspend teams, why not the reps that were doing the contest and allowed it to take place? If we are going to police like that, then the reps should have hand cuffed him and waterboarded him to see who else was involved... OK, just kidding. But I do support the actions that my friends on the BOD took. It's a thankless job folks.

JimmyDAL
08-16-2012, 01:56 PM
Did the board ask the offender wearing the apron if he intentionally wore it? And if the team Captain Knew he was wearing it? I don't know all the details but I do know this, much has been kept from the members of KCBS by the BODY for yrs in executive session that I believe would probably ban Board members for life but are kept quite, is really making this situation so extreme that the members ask for the same for the board members that deserve the same scrutiny? I'm not here playing Monday morning quarterback but sure it was wrong, distasteful, juvenile, and I would be passed too if my child witnessed actions that are more appropriate at a stag.

Warthog
08-16-2012, 01:58 PM
Competing in the raw. Just be careful of those sparks.:moon:

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 02:04 PM
Well,once again the BOD went overboard with the punishement ! I don't think in any way a 3 year ban fits the crime.I know the crime was foul,dumb,and thoughtless,but 3 years,once again the BOD has failed all of us as members.This is like someone getting a 3 year prison sentence for pissing in public,yes,that is dumb,the person has ACTUAL genitalia that can be seen by children and grown-up's,and it's thoughtless,but NODODY would get a 3 year sentence,probably not even 3 years probation for doing it.I think we all,as members,should really look,learn,and consider what the BOD has done here and then make wise choices come election time,like someone once said,"Fire Da Bums" !

Really? "Once again"??? All I've heard since I have been on the board is that the board WON'T enforce the rules. Which is it? Here's the thing - because the details were in executive session, I'm not at liberty to discuss statements made by witnesses and the people who were directly involved. So not any of you are aware of the whole story but yet you continue to bash the board for doing our job. I'm not shy about saying my support was originally for the full five years. The discussion was long (over two hours) and each and every board member looked at it from ALL angles and all possibilities. They did their job that they were elected to do. I can say this too... that because someone made the poor decision to wear a penis apron in front of a large crowd of people, I lost out on a full evening with my family. My young daughter was in bed by the time we were done. Before you say "So?", accept a nomination this fall, run for the board and be elected. But in MOST cases, that won't happen - lots of "couldn't pay me enough money to serve on the KCBS board!" sentiment out there. I've been hearing it for YEARS. As a member of the board, I believe I have an obligation to help preserve the integrity and the public reputation of our entire culture. These days, we are more highly scrutinized than ever with barbecue competitions being all over television, the Internet and on people's minds. Imagine you lived in the area of McMinnville and decided to go visit a barbecue competition with your family for the first time and you thought "Hey, cool! We are here to see the awards program!" So you take your family over to the awards and start watching. Then, in front of your wife and kids, somebody walks up with a foot long penis on the front of his apron. Your wife is embarrassed and shocked and your young kids start asking questions. You leave with a BAD taste in your mouth for this "competition barbecue thing" and never return again. Is THAT what you want our sport to evolve into? Is that how you want the public to view competition barbecue? Because if so, they won't come out to contests. Then if the public isn't coming, why would a sponsor want to pay money to organizers with no public? And then where do you think organizers are going to get the big prize pools you enjoy? You want it to be like pro wrestling or similar? Not me. We are so very proud to say our culture is family friendly yet we're not concerned when something like this happens. We have an obligation to preserve the reputation of barbecue and how we are perceived by everyone. That's why I voted the way I did and I will stand by it. Feel free to disagree. My term is up in January, 2015.

YankeeBBQ
08-16-2012, 02:07 PM
In the case of the reps that were recently dismissed we only had two options legally. Retrain them or fire them. They were fired. While it states in the minutes they can apply in one year to be Reps in training there's nothing that says we have to accept them.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
08-16-2012, 02:13 PM
Really? "Once again"??? All I've heard since I have been on the board is that the board WON'T enforce the rules. Which is it? Here's the thing - because the details were in executive session, I'm not at liberty to discuss statements made by witnesses and the people who were directly involved. So not any of you are aware of the whole story but yet you continue to bash the board for doing our job. I'm not shy about saying my support was originally for the full five years. The discussion was long (over two hours) and each and every board member looked at it from ALL angles and all possibilities. They did their job that they were elected to do. I can say this too... that because someone made the poor decision to wear a penis apron in front of a large crowd of people, I lost out on a full evening with my family. My young daughter was in bed by the time we were done. Before you say "So?", accept a nomination this fall, run for the board and be elected. But in MOST cases, that won't happen - lots of "couldn't pay me enough money to serve on the KCBS board!" sentiment out there. I've been hearing it for YEARS. As a member of the board, I believe I have an obligation to help preserve the integrity and the public reputation of our entire culture. These days, we are more highly scrutinized than ever with barbecue competitions being all over television, the Internet and on people's minds. Imagine you lived in the area of McMinnville and decided to go visit a barbecue competition with your family for the first time and you thought "Hey, cool! We are here to see the awards program!" So you take your family over to the awards and start watching. Then, in front of your wife and kids, somebody walks up with a foot long penis on the front of his apron. Your wife is embarrassed and shocked and your young kids start asking questions. You leave with a BAD taste in your mouth for this "competition barbecue thing" and never return again. Is THAT what you want our sport to evolve into? Is that how you want the public to view competition barbecue? Because if so, they won't come out to contests. Then if the public isn't coming, why would a sponsor want to pay money to organizers with no public? And then where do you think organizers are going to get the big prize pools you enjoy? You want it to be like pro wrestling or similar? Not me. We are so very proud to say our culture is family friendly yet we're not concerned when something like this happens. We have an obligation to preserve the reputation of barbecue and how we are perceived by everyone. That's why I voted the way I did and I will stand by it. Feel free to disagree. My term is up in January, 2015.

I really tire of the "you don't know what all the facts are" nonsense. The reason we don't know the facts is everything always held in secret. Secondly you need to ban Myron Mixon and anybody else that uses a 4 letter word on TV. Those people represent what competition BBQ is way more than on guy at one contest who made a stupid decision. That's happening on a national stage. You've started down a slippery slope and of course have not bothered to tell the teams what exactly the morality police are going ban you for. That's ok I'm sure everyone in the secret sessions know.

USMC_BBQ
08-16-2012, 02:15 PM
So why no action for a team that was seen with thier penis hanging out and urinating on another team's property?

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 02:16 PM
One other thing to mention - Google "fake penis, arrest" and see what you find. Then tell me this isn't serious. It's one thing to urinate somewhere where you aren't seen or do some not-so-clean stuff in your own site late night Friday when there aren't lots of kids, ladies and the public watching. It's quite another to do this in public in the view of all of the aforementioned people. It's also one thing to have shirts and team names that "suggest" adult humor - because young children won't get it. It's another to have them that flat out demonstrate it. Personally, I'm not in favor of allowing any of them but unless there's ever enough outrage, that won't happen.

bbqczar
08-16-2012, 02:18 PM
There was no role call vote but if you listen to the meeting you will know who voted for and against it. Even though I argued for a lesser punishment, in the end I voted for the 3 year ban. I thought it was important that I express my view that I thought what happened was wrong and deserved some punishment. Google penis apron and you will see that a majority of the websites that sell it won't even post a picture of it. Then imagine an awards ceremony attended by children as young as 4 years old witnessing a man on stage wearing such a thing. If someone had that on late at night in their cooksite or even came to my site with it I wouldn't be offended. Wearing it on stage is a whole different thing.

Well, I agree,it was in aweful taste,poor judgment,thoughtless,and on and on,but if he had whipped out the REAL thing on stage,he would have been arrested,booked,released OR and then given a small fine and maybe,just maybe,but probably not, a 1 year probabtion,and that would be for the REAL thing,right out there on stage for all to see.The BOD again should be ashamed,not proud of the punishment decision,there are lots of worse things that go on at contestes and nothing is done,or just a reprimand letter.I think this decsion sure will make voting easier for alot of people and will makes peoples decision to renew their membership easier as well.

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 02:18 PM
So why no action for a team that was seen with thier penis hanging out and urinating on another team's property?

Because there weren't enough of us who thought more should be done.

Jorge
08-16-2012, 02:19 PM
So why no action for a team that was seen with thier penis hanging out and urinating on another team's property?

Did you witness it?

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
08-16-2012, 02:20 PM
One other thing to mention - Google "fake penis, arrest" and see what you find. Then tell me this isn't serious. It's one thing to urinate somewhere where you aren't seen or do some not-so-clean stuff in your own site late night Friday when there aren't lots of kids, ladies and the public watching. It's quite another to do this in public in the view of all of the aforementioned people. It's also one thing to have shirts and team names that "suggest" adult humor - because young children won't get it. It's another to have them that flat out demonstrate it. Personally, I'm not in favor of allowing any of them but unless there's ever enough outrage, that won't happen.

Is the official stance of the board then as long as it doesn't happen at awards?

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
08-16-2012, 02:22 PM
Nevermind.

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 02:22 PM
Is the official stance of the board then as long as it doesn't happen at awards?

It's the official stance of Jeff Stith. That's all I can say. Just realize there are other rules as well. It's freakin' common sense, man.

bbqczar
08-16-2012, 02:24 PM
So why no action for a team that was seen with thier penis hanging out and urinating on another team's property?

Oh,of course not,the BOD doesn't mind the real thing out in public,just make sure it isn't put back on the smkoer after being parted :biggrin1:

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
08-16-2012, 02:25 PM
It's the official stance of Jeff Stith. That's all I can say. Just realize there are other rules as well. It's freakin' common sense, man.

Surely you have to understand that "We don't know what constitutes bad behavior but we'll let you know when we ban you." Is a bit unnerving for teams.

Pelkster
08-16-2012, 02:28 PM
Here's my take for what its worth...

After reading this thread initially, I too was appalled at the length of the suspension. Three years is a long time. But I did something that was suggested. I did a web search for the apron in question and I was shocked! Its not just an aporn with fabric genetalia on it. Its an apron with a sex toy attached to it. Once I saw the pictures, my opinion of this situation changed and I am in support of the BOD. I rarely comment on these types of conversations, but I feel strongly about this that I had to speak up.

I agree with Jeff in KC's comments. This is NOT the way that I want the sport I have quickly fallen in love with to be represented. I feel that competitive BBQ is on the verge of exploding in polularity, and we don't need ANY negative attention. Peeing one someone's vehicle, while inappropriate and unsanitary, doesn't come close to the severity of this particular incident that resulted in suspension.

Another thing to consider...while we all have our opinions, the head cook posted on this very thread that he accepts full responsibilty and the punishment handed down. I would like to believe that during his conversations with the BOD he would have inquired about an appeals process. He is being a CLASS act and taking his lumps without complaint. I feel terrible for him. He is a role model for the rest of us on how to man up and take responsibility for what he and his team does. I'd like to say that I would do the same thing if I were in his spot, but I'm not sure if I could without some argument or resistance.

I do not envy your position on the BOD, as this is a tough call to make, but in the long run, I feel that it is the best one for all of us.

Scottie
08-16-2012, 02:29 PM
Im moving on and returning my ass apron I just got... ;)

Ford
08-16-2012, 02:31 PM
While I think your actions were extremely harsh I respect your decision. You were elected to do your job and did so. Nobody here questions your commitment to the KCBS and doing what's best in your opinion. I hope that the bod will take this decision as a precedent and use it when making future disciplinary decisions. I also hope that the bod will instruct reps to enforce all rules now in place to the best of their ability. The KCBS has made a clear policy statement that they are a family friendly venue. I support this goal and will look forward to many changes in future contests to ensure it is family friendly.

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 02:32 PM
Surely you have to understand that "We don't know what constitutes bad behavior but we'll let you know when we ban you." Is a bit unnerving for teams.

It has been suggested to me by a person not shooting from the hip over all of this that wording should be changed - that moral turpitude should be replaced by something along the lines of "lewd and obscene" because more people will agree that certain things are lewd and obscene yet balk when someone else tries to determine what is morally correct or incorrect - legislating morality is the slippery slope. I agree with that. I would like to see it changed myself. Then, wearing a penis to awards for all to see is without a doubt lewd and obscene, no questions asked, no excuses. I would also like to see there be designated penalties for the breaking of that list of rules with board discretion to adjust for the severity of the action. But I still come back to the fact it's common sense what's right and wrong. A poor decision may have been made by wearing this but why are people not expected to take responsibility for their own actions and accept the consequences?

nthole
08-16-2012, 02:35 PM
Well, I agree,it was in aweful taste,poor judgment,thoughtless,and on and on,but if he had whipped out the REAL thing on stage,he would have been arrested,booked,released OR and then given a small fine and maybe,just maybe,but probably not, a 1 year probabtion,and that would be for the REAL thing,right out there on stage for all to see.The BOD again should be ashamed,not proud of the punishment decision,there are lots of worse things that go on at contestes and nothing is done,or just a reprimand letter.I think this decsion sure will make voting easier for alot of people and will makes peoples decision to renew their membership easier as well.

No, that's only what the LAW would have done to him. KCBS is not bound to administer punishments based on local, county, state or federal laws. I imagine if that had happened the person would be dealing with those LEGAL repercussions AS WELL as a permanent KCBS ban.

Teamfour
08-16-2012, 02:40 PM
Did the board ask the offender wearing the apron if he intentionally wore it?

Are implying that he may have "accidentally" put the apron on?:wacko:

My take: I support the Boards decision, I just think it is wrong to implicate the entire team in the punishment. If the head cook was completely unaware, then he/she should not be penalized.

I think this incident needs to be taken seriously. What if the local TV news crew was there to video some local flavor. This issue would be on the front of CNN.com right now.

I also agree that bleeped out profanity has gone too far. It is one thing to bleep out an inadvertent cuss word. But the likes of Myron Mixon, Gordon Ramsay, etc. have pushed the envelope in my opinion.

I am nowhere near a prude, but it is time that folks start moving back to some sense of decency. Let's start by KCBS and the BBQ Brethren setting the example.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
08-16-2012, 02:44 PM
It has been suggested to me by a person not shooting from the hip over all of this that wording should be changed - that moral turpitude should be replaced by something along the lines of "lewd and obscene" because more people will agree that certain things are lewd and obscene yet balk when someone else tries to determine what is morally correct or incorrect - legislating morality is the slippery slope. I agree with that. I would like to see it changed myself. Then, wearing a penis to awards for all to see is without a doubt lewd and obscene, no questions asked, no excuses. I would also like to see there be designated penalties for the breaking of that list of rules with board discretion to adjust for the severity of the action. But I still come back to the fact it's common sense what's right and wrong. A poor decision may have been made by wearing this but why are people not expected to take responsibility for their own actions and accept the consequences?

The guy screwed up. He deserves to be punished no one argues that. The severity, lack of consistency in punishment, and having it effect his teammates is where I think many have a problem.

Diva
08-16-2012, 02:48 PM
I agree 3 years may be a bit too harsh, written warning, 2 yr probation maybe.
But there was a lot more than whats posted on this board that happened.
Maybe some of the teams that cooked the contest and witnessed what happened after awards will chime in.


Then what EXACTLY happened? Obviously, you were there, say it.

Just Pulin' Pork
08-16-2012, 02:59 PM
:pop2:

deepsouth
08-16-2012, 03:09 PM
this reminds me of when i was a young lad, probably 10 or 11.... my sister is 5 years younger.... my grandfather (the jokester, RIP) came to visit and brought me not one, but two anotomically correct "caveman" type dolls that had fur faces that you could lift up to see full size male and female parts. of course being 10 or 11, the first thing i did was bring them to my sister to show her, and i remember my mom getting onto me, telling me that i "scarred her for life." turns out, she doesn't even remember it, nor did it scar her for life.

USMC_BBQ
08-16-2012, 03:11 PM
FYI, The apron in question was fabric not sex toy

Parts_Guy
08-16-2012, 03:25 PM
What happens if the team is not a KCBS team?(not trying to be a wise ass..really wondering)

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 03:26 PM
What happens if the team is not a KCBS team?(not trying to be a wise ass..really wondering)

double secret probation.

Ford
08-16-2012, 03:33 PM
What happens if the team is not a KCBS team?(not trying to be a wise ass..really wondering)

IF the sanctioning agreement between the KCBS and organizer says banned people can't compete the KCBS supplies organizers with banned names. Doesn't matter if you're a member or not. The problem with this is if an organizer accepts an application then the team shows up and the rep says that guys banned, what does the organizer do. At that point I doubt they can do much but not post the teams results on the website. The entries would have to be scored or the organizer could be sued for costs.

At the end of the day the contract is between the entrant and organizer. The KCBS is there to run the contest.

mobow
08-16-2012, 03:38 PM
One sentence on the waiver statements we already sign would take care of it. keith

early mornin' smokin'
08-16-2012, 03:43 PM
I've read this whole thread, and honestly i'm disgusted with the decision. I've seen more disgusting commercials and television shows that ANYONE can watch on public television. Vibrator commercials, 3 some car commercials, tampon commercials, summers eve....the list goes on. I've seen worse things on spongebob!

But in all honesty. Take the 3 year slap on the wrist. But whats stopping this team from taking on a "new" head cook, forming a new team and competing under a different team name? Seems to me, by following the listed KCBS rules. A new cook with a new team name wouldn't be suspended, or on probation.

Jaybo77
08-16-2012, 03:46 PM
[QUOTE=Pigs on Fire;2176663]Yeah, it's a shame that 30+ teams there didn't have the cajones to walk up to these jackholes and say "take that stupid ____ off."

Either people are going to have to start standing up to these morons in society or it's just going to get worse. Stop being skeert of hurting someone's feeeeeeelings or embarrassing someone.[/QUOT i agree 100%

Ford
08-16-2012, 03:47 PM
I've read this whole thread, and honestly i'm disgusted with the decision. I've seen more disgusting commercials and television shows that ANYONE can watch on public television. Vibrator commercials, 3 some car commercials, tampon commercials, summers eve....the list goes on. I've seen worse things on spongebob!

But in all honesty. Take the 3 year slap on the wrist. But whats stopping this team from taking on a "new" head cook, forming a new team and competing under a different team name? Seems to me, by following the listed KCBS rules. A new cook with a new team name wouldn't be suspended, or on probation.

The individuals have been banned from cooking in KCBS contests for any team. Guess now we'll find out how they enforce it.

dmprantz
08-16-2012, 03:49 PM
Its not just an aporn with fabric genetalia on it. Its an apron with a sex toy attached to it.

You sir, are incorrect. There was no "sex toy" on the apron in question.

dmp

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 03:50 PM
I've read this whole thread, and honestly i'm disgusted with the decision. I've seen more disgusting commercials and television shows that ANYONE can watch on public television. Vibrator commercials, 3 some car commercials, tampon commercials, summers eve....the list goes on. I've seen worse things on spongebob!

But in all honesty. Take the 3 year slap on the wrist. But whats stopping this team from taking on a "new" head cook, forming a new team and competing under a different team name? Seems to me, by following the listed KCBS rules. A new cook with a new team name wouldn't be suspended, or on probation.

So stuff that's on cable television makes it ok for us to allow it at barbecue competitions? Sorry, I'm not buying that.

As for the "team" - from what I have been told, there are only two members of this team. Both are suspended. And umm, you're right... a different cook with a different team name is not suspended. ???

mobow
08-16-2012, 03:51 PM
But in all honesty. Take the 3 year slap on the wrist. But whats stopping this team from taking on a "new" head cook, forming a new team and competing under a different team name? Seems to me, by following the listed KCBS rules. A new cook with a new team name wouldn't be suspended, or on probation.

As with most of the rules of competition BBQ, it does rely on some degree of honesty from all the players. keith

JD McGee
08-16-2012, 03:52 PM
I think the punishment is too harsh for the crime...it should have just been a warning...perhaps probation. Sounds like KCBS wanted to make a statement and used him and his team as an example. I see funky stuff like that all the time...bad taste?...most definitely...but not criminal! :hand:

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 03:58 PM
I see funky stuff like that all the time...bad taste?...most definitely...but not criminal! :hand:

Depends on where you are maybe. Not using "lmgtfy.com as a smart-arse but so that you can see the exact stories I'm seeing:

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=fake+penis%2C+arrest

Cue's Your Daddy
08-16-2012, 04:05 PM
The board did what it had to do. If they did nothing then there would be people pissed at that. I do believe that 3 years is to much, but it deserved something. In an earlier post I did say that he is a loser and I apologize for that because u are correct, I do not know the individual to pass judgement like that. But let's not try to paint a picture that he is a marine and a father and husband, so we should look the other way. A Marine, a Father and a Husband should have known better. And don't tell me that he gives me the freedom to post on this forum. Marines choose to be Marines. Don't throw that card out there. I respect dmprantz for not hiding, sharing his views, and for accepting the penalty, a penalty I still believe is to harsh.

USMC_BBQ
08-16-2012, 04:05 PM
Those were sex toys not an apron with a fabric penis. apples and oranges

moocow
08-16-2012, 04:17 PM
3 years is to much! How about sitting them down the rest of the year and on probation the next 2 years. If I got set for 3 years I would just find a new hobby.

Scottie
08-16-2012, 04:23 PM
Can i ask a stupid question? Did Dan get suspended because he was the head cook?

Cue's Your Daddy
08-16-2012, 04:26 PM
I assume dan is allowed to cook with other teams, just without the apron.:-D

fnbish
08-16-2012, 04:35 PM
I've read this whole thread, and honestly i'm disgusted with the decision. I've seen more disgusting commercials and television shows that ANYONE can watch on public television. Vibrator commercials, 3 some car commercials, tampon commercials, summers eve....the list goes on. I've seen worse things on spongebob!

Yes of course there is a lot worse out there in the media/television/iternet. I view it all daily by choice :becky:. But just like people can choose to turn the channel, search at a different website, or not buy the product on the commercial because they don't like what they see they can also choose to never come to a bbq competition/festival because of what they see/experience.

nthole
08-16-2012, 04:51 PM
But just like people can choose to turn the channel, search at a different website, or not buy the product on the commercial because they don't like what they see they can also choose to never come to a bbq competition/festival because of what they see/experience.

Isn't that kind of the point? As cooks and ambassadors of the sport which has always been promoted as a family friendly environment don't we NOT want that to happen? Don't we WANT people to WANT to come again??? To Jeff's point earlier, no people, no sponsors, no $s, no contests...

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
08-16-2012, 04:58 PM
Yes of course there is a lot worse out there in the media/television/iternet. I view it all daily by choice :becky:. But just like people can choose to turn the channel, search at a different website, or not buy the product on the commercial because they don't like what they see they can also choose to never come to a bbq competition/festival because of what they see/experience.

I see a lot of loud drunks using 4 letter words. As much as this is touted as a family event my guess is a large majority of teams at comps are men who like to drink a few and cut loose.
I would never consider any event I've been to as rated PG. it's the nature of the sport. Do I condone what happened ? No. Do I think there should have been a punishment? Yes. Let's not start to kid ourselves here. I've seen plenty of bad behavior at events including public urination, obscene team names, fowl language, obscene music, etc. Tell me the Dark Side of the American Royal is family friendly.

didisea
08-16-2012, 05:00 PM
I commend those involved for taking responsibility for what happened, and I hope that they can be reinstated before the 3 years are up, for what was an unfortunate temporary lack of judgement.

fnbish
08-16-2012, 05:01 PM
Isn't that kind of the point? As cooks and ambassadors of the sport which has always been promoted as a family friendly environment don't we NOT want that to happen? Don't we WANT people to WANT to come again??? To Jeff's point earlier, no people, no sponsors, no $s, no contests...

Yes that is exactly that point I was making :grin:. Just because there are worse things out there doesn't mean this situation is less meaningful or not as bad and should just be brushed off. Companies/businesses/organizations can do and say what they please, but they have to be aware of the consequences. KCBS seems to be aware of this and does NOT want it to happen. I like that.

bbqczar
08-16-2012, 05:13 PM
3 years is to much! How about sitting them down the rest of the year and on probation the next 2 years. If I got set for 3 years I would just find a new hobby.


Naaa,no reason to get away from the hobby,there are alot more sanctioning bodies out there and some are better than KCBS and have rules,good judging(some are KCBS judges)and the events are depending on team count,Jack and Royal qualifiers.This team that got banned can cook IBCA,PNWB,BCS,FBA,all over the USA,KCBS isn't the only game in town and they just lowered down another number or two with this move.

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 05:23 PM
Naaa,no reason to get away from the hobby,there are alot more sanctioning bodies out there and some are better than KCBS and have rules,good judging(some are KCBS judges)and the events are depending on team count,Jack and Royal qualifiers.This team that got banned can cook IBCA,PNWB,BCS,FBA,all over the USA,KCBS isn't the only game in town and they just lowered down another number or two with this move.

what's making you so anti-KCBS and us enforcing the rules?

boogiesnap
08-16-2012, 05:23 PM
i don't know that the felony murder type rule should apply here really. one guy commited the act and yet another associated with him is being equally punished. if dan really wasn't there and didn't see he should be on probation. keep a better eye on your people moving forward or there will be significant consequences. the offender? well, c'mon man.

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 05:27 PM
Can i ask a stupid question? Did Dan get suspended because he was the head cook?

Head cooks are responsible for what happens with their team.

butt head
08-16-2012, 05:41 PM
Why don't you tell us YOUR background and what's making you so anti-KCBS and us enforcing the rules?

why, he's intitled to his opinion just like you

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 05:47 PM
why, he's intitled to his opinion just like you

Of course he's entitled to his opinion. But since he's the most vocal and derrogatory towards the board, I'm curious as to why. That's all.

Sledneck
08-16-2012, 05:50 PM
Head cooks are responsible for what happens with their team.

Agreed but do they deserve the same punishment as the offender. Many folks have a lot of money invested in this . To say he can't use his stuff at a contest for 3 years is still way to harsh. You guys were elected to speak for us and I am thankful for that , if you reAd most of thd above the general consesnsus for all of us that you are speaking for is that the length of punishment is to long.

Smoke'n Ice
08-16-2012, 05:53 PM
I have seen references to sex toys etc. in this string, but early on, it was aluded too that the cook in question worn an apron that is referred to as David (Michelangelo). This particular apron is available from Sears and other stores for purchase by anyone. It is a photographic reproduction of the statue David by Michelangelo which is on public display in Florence, IT. While wearing it may be in bad taste, it is certainly not illegal. If this is truly the case then, the "crime" does not fit the punishment.

I would ask that some common sense be used and revisit the issue. Roberts Rules of Order, newly revised, allow for a person voting in the majority to ask for a reconsideration of the previous vote prior to any new business at this or any meeting subsequent. I know that the bod does not follow the RONR and it may be they just wing it and make it up as they go. I don't know.

Ron_L
08-16-2012, 06:05 PM
I have seen references to sex toys etc. in this string, but early on, it was aluded too that the cook in question worn an apron that is referred to as David (Michelangelo). This particular apron is available from Sears and other stores for purchase by anyone. It is a photographic reproduction of the statue David by Michelangelo which is on public display in Florence, IT. While wearing it may be in bad taste, it is certainly not illegal. If this is truly the case then, the "crime" does not fit the punishment.

I would ask that some common sense be used and revisit the issue. Roberts Rules of Order, newly revised, allow for a person voting in the majority to ask for a reconsideration of the previous vote prior to any new business at this or any meeting subsequent. I know that the bod does not follow the RONR and it may be they just wing it and make it up as they go. I don't know.

Actually, the reference to the David apron was unrelated to this incident.

Maybe not the same as this occurence but It's been a few years but on more than one occasion (different contests/different team), I've seen cooks wearing the "statue of David" apron.. they sell them all over the place.

Still I agree, not ideal to be up on stage with it...

I haven't seen this apron, but what was described to me was not the David apron.

Fat Freddy
08-16-2012, 06:07 PM
Ok now I am hearing a bit more and I thank Jeff, Steve, George and Candy for commenting. I dont know how people voted unless they said, but at least here are people explaining why they voted the way they did. And as said before there is even more that was discussed in executive session. IF I knew more and I dont my feelings may be entirely different. For that reason I support the decision the BOD made. I may not agree but I support.

I also think what Jeff said is an excellent idea about the wording, IF things were worded differently in the rules would there be as much debate? As I had stated before I would like to know when it ends. But if the rule is even more clear then it is hard to argue but then the rulings need to be consistent.

Jeff_in_KC
08-16-2012, 06:08 PM
Agreed but do they deserve the same punishment as the offender. Many folks have a lot of money invested in this . To say he can't use his stuff at a contest for 3 years is still way to harsh. You guys were elected to speak for us and I am thankful for that , if you reAd most of thd above the general consesnsus for all of us that you are speaking for is that the length of punishment is to long.

Appreciate and respect your view, Sled. The Brethren site is not consensus of KCBS member opinion. I don't believe we're anywhere near close to consensus of opinion of members across any forum or network where it's been discussed. However, we have afforded dmprantz his privacy on this matter via executive session and I am not free to discuss all of the details that were shared as to why things went the way they did at this time. I've shared my views and why (to the best of my abilities given the executive session) I took the stance that I did myself. I was not aware that the person in question was dmprantz until he posted and honestly, it wouldn't have changed my belief. I don't believe there's anything more I can add to the conversation except to say that in ANY incident that sheds KCBS in a bad light to the public, families and the press, you can expect me to always vote to support decency and a family atmosphere. I only got involved in this thread because as Brethren, we were challenged to support our decision here, which I did. I personally appreciate everyone taking time to express their opinions, believe it or not.

Bentley
08-16-2012, 06:31 PM
That's why I voted the way I did and I will stand by it. Feel free to disagree. My term is up in January, 2015.

Guess I will have to wait until then to vote for you again!


Tell me the Dark Side of the American Royal is family friendly.


I am 6'2" and 350 and I am scared to go over there even when it is light, had papitations just gettin my meat from the Sam's truck last year, that was close enough!

bigdogphin
08-16-2012, 06:43 PM
Does someone actually have link to the apron in question.... There seems to be conflicting ideas about which one it is......

bbqczar
08-16-2012, 06:59 PM
what's making you so anti-KCBS and us enforcing the rules?


I'm not against enforcing the rules,I am however against giving a team a 3 year bn and giving other rule violaters a slap on the wrist.I said several times in my post's what the guy did was wrong,dumb,stupid,thoughtless,but what the BOD did in handing out the PUNISHMENT was the same .The punishment doesn't fit the crime,the BOD should go and sit in judgement on themselves,and see what they think then. I want the rules enforced,but fairly and with some amount of sense to things too.

motoeric
08-16-2012, 07:09 PM
what's making you so anti-KCBS and us enforcing the rules?


Why are you interpreting a statement that the KCBS isn't the only game in town and that the team has a number of other options as being ant-KCBS and anti-rules enforcement?

Eric

TTNuge
08-16-2012, 07:09 PM
Would this be acceptable to wear to the awards?


No I think the one you need to wear displays the other side of the anatomy.

VA BBQ PIRATES
08-16-2012, 07:15 PM
OK – What was done was wrong and in poor taste. Everyone knows that the mere sight of any representation of male genitalia will cause boys to giggle uncontrollably, women to swoon and girls to grow into wonton harlots.

From what has been presented here they deserve to be punished. A warning and a public apology seems appropriate. What they did was wrong but only to be superceded by the board’s knee jerk over reaction. Unless we take into account the super secret stuff we can’t know about that makes it OK.

My only question is what is the penalty for displaying the Virginia State flag? It displays a dead guy & a chick was an exposed breast. I know it’s not the same but I just want some direction before our next competition.

I’m guessing now wouldn’t be the time to change our name to Sofa King Good BBQ?

Tom
Virginia BBQ Pirates

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 07:16 PM
what's making you so anti-KCBS and us enforcing the rules?


no one is against enforcing the rules. What people are up in arms about is the harshness of the penalty. Especially given the recent track record of penalties given by the board.

bbqczar
08-16-2012, 07:29 PM
no one is against enforcing the rules. What people are up in arms about is the harshness of the penalty. Especially given the recent track record of penalties given by the board.

Exactly,I'm not anti-KCBS,but see thats what happens when a paying member questions the BOD actions,you get labled ant-KCBS or worse.The BOD didn't do the common sense thing,just as the person who wore the apron didn't do the common sense thing,if that makes me anti-KCBS well,ok,then so be it.

huminie
08-16-2012, 07:37 PM
Why is everyone so afraid of something 75% of the crowd had one of? The other 25% have either seen one before (no big deal then) or if they haven't, wouldn't know what it was. The paranoia people have for the human body is just silly sometimes.

Of course it was in poor taste, and probably against the rules, but the punishment doesn't come close to fitting the crime. No one was hurt, the contest wasn't compromised. What was the real damage?

Way, way over the top, and not cool at all.

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 08:00 PM
I am also curious if the reps and organizers were sanctioned or reprimanded in any way. If a head cook is responsible for what someone on his team does, surely a rep and an organizer are responsible for allowing things to happen at their contests.

At any time during the awards a rep or an organizer could have said something to the person, I am sure they would have removed the apron and all would be right in the world.

Of course the rep and organizer decided to be quiet, not say anything, until they could hide behind an executive session.

Smoke'n Ice
08-16-2012, 08:12 PM
I have received private communications on this subject and now understand that the apron worn was anatomically correct with all of the offending apendages hanging out. This was crude, rude and totally unacceptable in any way, shape or form. I now support the decision made and applude the board and the team for accepting the decision. It was harsh and probably over the top and should be revisited but until then, good job.

Jorge
08-16-2012, 08:25 PM
I am also curious if the reps and organizers were sanctioned or reprimanded in any way. If a head cook is responsible for what someone on his team does, surely a rep and an organizer are responsible for allowing things to happen at their contests.

At any time during the awards a rep or an organizer could have said something to the person, I am sure they would have removed the apron and all would be right in the world.

Of course the rep and organizer decided to be quiet, not say anything, until they could hide behind an executive session.

Do you just have a woody for sticking it to KCBS?

The best I can determine you weren't there. Were you? If you weren't do you have knowledge that the apron was dislplayed and that it was known to the Reps that the member that has been disciplined was wearing it at awards prior to their getting called?

If that's not the case then I'd ask what you'd have the Reps do, as the individual was walking up to accept their award. Tackle them?

They came up, got their award, and went back to their seat. The issue was addressed immediately after awards without disrupting the event further. Instead of disciplinary action, the Reps should be commended for making the best of a difficult situation.

nukenight
08-16-2012, 08:58 PM
This is more a question of an improper action by a single person than anything else. A mistake was made, but giving the offender a three year ban? I bet we all have made mistakes like this in our lives. I believe the board over-reacted with a three year ban. We are traveling down a slippery slope. Where does it end? The thought and speech police will take away everything if we are not careful.

DawgPhan
08-16-2012, 09:34 PM
Do you just have a woody for sticking it to KCBS?



If I say yes are you going to ban me?

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
08-16-2012, 09:36 PM
Appreciate and respect your view, Sled. The Brethren site is not consensus of KCBS member opinion. I don't believe we're anywhere near close to consensus of opinion of members across any forum or network where it's been discussed.

Where exactly do you get your guesstimates then? Is there a KCBS poll you know of? My guess is if a large majority of on here thinks its way too harsh the BOD has its answer from the membership. My guess is if it wasn't for this site the other members wouldn't even have a clue on what transpired. Bury your head in the sand if you must.

Jorge
08-16-2012, 09:46 PM
If I say yes are you going to ban me?

I don't have that authority, or desire. I'm just asking because you rarely if ever say anything positive that I can recall.

So you suggested imposing some sort of sanction on the Reps earlier. Do you have sufficient knowledge of what happened to support that or were you just stirring the pot?

sitnfat
08-16-2012, 09:58 PM
Can we have a rude,crude and lewd BBQ tour?

jrbBBQ
08-16-2012, 10:15 PM
I've been reading this thread and have no ties to either side. I think this argument is causing alot of ill will towards both sides. But since everyone has an opinion, here's mine. I don't care who this guys is who wore that apron, but what in ANYONE's mind clicks and says this is gonna be a great idea. We have all been to contests and seen who the people are that goes to these things. If he would have put it on for a minute at his site on late Friday night, maybe, just maybe it'd fly. Awards are in the middle of the day with everyone's family and others there. If I'd have been there, I'd would have probably just sat back and said.. look at that d-bag, what a joke. I think a suspension for him is appropriate (maybe a couple years), but then again, I despise people who don't show respect for the people around them. That is what this is all about, RESPECT. I don't believe the head cook should have been suspended for 3 years unless he said.. "here, wear this apron, it's gonna be hilarious". A ban for the rest of the calender year and probation for next would have been fine. I also think everyone souldlay off the board members, they are doing a job 99% of us don't want to have anything to do with. They did their job. Some of you are making it out to sound like they all got together and said hey, lets hang this f'er and scare everyone. They acted on a situation that should have never happend to begin with. Do people play offensive music too loud, yes, but if they are parked next to me, do they ask first, YES. Do people piss behind vehicles at night, yes, do they piss in the midway in the afternoon, no. I'm sure some of you have even fooled around with your wife of girlfriend in the middle of the night at these things, but would you go at it in front of your trailer after brisket turn-ins? A little common sense goes a long ways. Some idiot, yes I called a marine an idiot, wore an apron with cauk and balls hanging off it and he found out the hard way he was WAY out of line and his teammate got caught up it in, which is unfortunate. Now the people handing out the punishment are in the crosshairs which is also unfortunate. The KCBS board is a thankless job from what I gather and there are more things wrong with the swinging di*k of sanctioning bodies (pardon the pun) than this situation. Everyone should just take a deep breath and move forward.

KC_Bobby
08-16-2012, 10:22 PM
3 years is to much! How about sitting them down the rest of the year and on probation the next 2 years. If I got set for 3 years I would just find a new hobby.

Shane, that's pretty much what I was thinking too.

Naaa,no reason to get away from the hobby,there are alot more sanctioning bodies out there and some are better than KCBS and have rules,good judging(some are KCBS judges)and the events are depending on team count,Jack and Royal qualifiers.This team that got banned can cook IBCA,PNWB,BCS,FBA,all over the USA,KCBS isn't the only game in town and they just lowered down another number or two with this move.

Around KC, it's the only game in town. So like Shane, I'd probably take up a new hobby. I remember I started to BBQ because golf cost too much. :mmph:

Now that said and while thinking the punishment is harsh, I don't have a problem with the board and/or it's decision. I feel they did what they did in order to protect the image of competition barbecue as well as their interests - which include their sponsors and many of ours (as in the competitors).

bbqbrad
08-16-2012, 10:24 PM
Ok. My turn. Is the ban excessive? I'm not sure. But I do agree that judges who drink and judge should be banned for the same amount of time. If this is offensive, ban the flying judges for what happend to Dive for the same amount of time. It;s just as offensive.

Contracted Cookers
08-16-2012, 10:42 PM
everybody is bashing the bod . but how many of us ran for it or will run for it.we elected them for a reason they did there job. don't like it we'll see you on a ballot

Funtimebbq
08-16-2012, 10:57 PM
Can we have a rude,crude and lewd BBQ tour?

It's called BBQ Pitmasters.

I will be interested to see if BBQ Pitmasters ever references KCBS on their shows and if so, what our BOD will do about sanctioning individuals about their language. After all, it is about how the public perceives KCBS.

The BOD has a tough job. I don't know what I would have done in their place. But now, they have to keep doing it.

Benny

Pit Master Fraz
08-17-2012, 04:28 AM
I was the other team, that got on probation, not sure why. Whether it was for having the apron or posting a picture of it on my FB page. Not sure ?? It was a bad decision to wear it in public, but really a 3 year ban. We are all human and make mistakes, hopefully the board will revisit this issue and reduce the penalty. hate to see them keep away from the sport for that long after hearing all the other stuff that has went on. Changing scores or bringing in pre-cooked meat should be considered a "Death Penalty".

The Cosmic Pig
08-17-2012, 05:38 AM
It seems that all of the folks that went to the trouble of finding the "facts" supported the board's decision, even though they initially, adamantly thought the penalty was too harsh. That tells me something right there. And there's a big difference in a suggestive shirt, sign, or a board that a child won't understand, and a "flailing" penis, as someone described it. All it takes is a tiny bit of common sense to know the difference. I'm not a prude either, but there's got to be a line drawn somewhere, and this crossed it big-time, IMHO. We're supposed to be examples for our children to follow - especially in public - not poster-children for rude and crude. The slippery-slope I'm most worried about is what some folks think should be acceptable behavior; it gets worse all the time. I applaud the board for taking a moral stand. I wish it happened more often in other areas of life.

Lake Dogs
08-17-2012, 07:15 AM
It seems that all of the folks that went to the trouble of finding the "facts" supported the board's decision, even though they initially, adamantly thought the penalty was too harsh. That tells me something right there. And there's a big difference in a suggestive shirt, sign, or a board that a child won't understand, and a "flailing" penis, as someone described it. All it takes is a tiny bit of common sense to know the difference. I'm not a prude either, but there's got to be a line drawn somewhere, and this crossed it big-time, IMHO. We're supposed to be examples for our children to follow - especially in public - not poster-children for rude and crude. The slippery-slope I'm most worried about is what some folks think should be acceptable behavior; it gets worse all the time. I applaud the board for taking a moral stand. I wish it happened more often in other areas of life.

I completely agree. Nobody wins in this situation; everyone loses. The board was put in a very bad position. Historically they've been put in these situations (from what I've read) and failed to take action, which is probably much worse than this action. But, 'ya cant undo that which was done in the past... I do think the punishment was probably a bit harsh for DMP, but that's debatable and surely he could argue his case next year for a reinstatement and probably would get it as long as his friend doesn't participate. Just bad all around. Jorge, sorry you're having to deal with **** like this.

bmonkman
08-17-2012, 07:43 AM
Folks,

I have been reading this thread with great interest. The discussions here really resonate with me. While I feel for DMP I do understand where the BOD are coming form. Was it a harsh decisions? Yes. Was it a too much? Maybe, but I suspect (and hope) the team will reapply in a year. Did a strong message get sent? Absol-farkin-lutely!!!!

My wife and I are hoping to get into comp bbq within a year or two. My 13 year old daughter wants to be on the team as well. I am, quite frankly, not sure about that. Reading of competition goings on - not by everyone - makes me somewhat uncomfortable. I'm not sure I want to expose her to that. In my opinion that would send the message to her that this sort of thing is acceptable behaviour.

In my opinion - and one I'm sure isn't widely shared - if competitions are supposed to be family friendly events then all participants (judges, reps, organizsers and teams) have a responsibility to make sure that is the case. This should never have had to get to be something the BOD had to deal with. This incident represents a failure of everyone involved.

I think the best solution ow is to support the BOD, support DMP, encourage the team to reapply after a year and then all of us step and make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

Just my opinion - I'll go back and sit in the bleachers now.

- Brian

Brauma
08-17-2012, 07:45 AM
Does "Cat Sass BBQ" offend anyone?

We've been competing under that name since '08. Our name is at awards. I sure would hate to get banned for 5 years now that we're finally getting some traction.

Dan - 3eyzbbq
08-17-2012, 07:48 AM
It seems that all of the folks that went to the trouble of finding the "facts" supported the board's decision, even though they initially, adamantly thought the penalty was too harsh.

Sorry, I know the facts and still dont support it.

Goddahavit
08-17-2012, 08:09 AM
Folks,

I have been reading this thread with great interest. The discussions here really resonate with me. While I feel for DMP I do understand where the BOD are coming form. Was it a harsh decisions? Yes. Was it a too much? Maybe, but I suspect (and hope) the team will reapply in a year. Did a strong message get sent? Absol-farkin-lutely!!!!

My wife and I are hoping to get into comp bbq within a year or two. My 13 year old daughter wants to be on the team as well. I am, quite frankly, not sure about that. Reading of competition goings on - not by everyone - makes me somewhat uncomfortable. I'm not sure I want to expose her to that. In my opinion that would send the message to her that this sort of thing is acceptable behaviour.

In my opinion - and one I'm sure isn't widely shared - if competitions are supposed to be family friendly events then all participants (judges, reps, organizsers and teams) have a responsibility to make sure that is the case. This should never have had to get to be something the BOD had to deal with. This incident represents a failure of everyone involved.

I think the best solution ow is to support the BOD, support DMP, encourage the team to reapply after a year and then all of us step and make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

Just my opinion - I'll go back and sit in the bleachers now.

- Brian

Bmonkman, since your relatively close, i can tell you that my daughter is part of our team, 10 years old, and aside from the occasional f bomb or something like that competition folks go out of their way to police themselves when she is around.

In fact everyone seems to know her and ask about her when she cant make it, she really loves seeing the people and competing.

Don't let 1 incident sway you from trying it, its a fun frustrating time, but the people you will meet you will find yourself looking forward to seeing next competition.

Frank Sacco
08-17-2012, 08:43 AM
For those that have called him a loser or made other disparaging remarks about a man you do not know. He made a very bad mistake, but he is no loser or degenerate. He served honorably in the Marine Corps to preserve and defend your right to post on this board. He is a great husband and father with a wonderful wife and son. He is also a respected business man in his community. He has cooked competitive BBQ for over 8 years with no prior incidents. It is unfair and wrong to pass such negative judgment on someone’s entire life over 1 bad joke.


Why does the Marine Corps and defending the rights of freedom have to be brought up? To reference character? His character spoke for it's self. Don't use "the gun club" as a crutch. You'll make us all look bad!

dmprantz
08-17-2012, 08:51 AM
Some of you are making it out to sound like they all got together and said hey, lets hang this f'er and scare everyone.

Were you present during disciplinary deliberations? Do you have any evidece whatsoever that this isn't exactly what happened?

Who knows what decisions my mind will will make in a week or a month or a year, but at this point, I have no intent to request this board or any future one to commute my ban. There also is no appeals process, nor would I request one. I told the board that I would accept their punishment, and I shall. As a result of this, I will likely never return to KCBS competitions, nor any other competitions. It's sad. All of my best friends are BBQ people. It's been a part of my life for 5 years, and in the blink of an eye, it's gone.

dmp

USMC_BBQ
08-17-2012, 09:08 AM
Why does the Marine Corps and defending the rights of freedom have to be brought up? To reference character? His character spoke for it's self. Don't use "the gun club" as a crutch. You'll make us all look bad!

Just showing he does not have a track record for being a "bone head." His one action was moronic and juvenile, but that is not who he is. I am sure we all have one or two actions we have taken that we would like to forget happened.

deguerre
08-17-2012, 09:20 AM
Were you present during disciplinary deliberations? Do you have any evidece whatsoever that this isn't exactly what happened?

Who knows what decisions my mind will will make in a week or a month or a year, but at this point, I have no intent to request this board or any future one to commute my ban. There also is no appeals process, nor would I request one. I told the board that I would accept their punishment, and I shall. As a result of this, I will likely never return to KCBS competitions, nor any other competitions. It's sad. All of my best friends are BBQ people. It's been a part of my life for 5 years, and in the blink of an eye, it's gone.

dmp

Stupid chit happened. Both ways. You can't just quit though. I won't let you even if I have to drive to Nashville and drag your butt, shoulder, ribs and whole hog back into it myself. And I don't even compete.

Brauma
08-17-2012, 09:51 AM
Stupid chit happened. Both ways. You can't just quit though. I won't let you even if I have to drive to Nashville and drag your butt, shoulder, ribs and whole hog back into it myself. And I don't even compete.

He's forced to quit. The way comp BBQ is nowadays, if you miss a month you're out of the draft. He's gonna be out of it for 3 years! He would have to completely start over.

This is just really sad. I'm not sure how this could have been best resolved but my gut tells me this punishment was too harsh.

2Fat
08-17-2012, 09:58 AM
, I'd probably take up a new hobby. I remember I started to BBQ because golf cost too much. :mmph:

.

so how did that work out for ya--hehe My club membership costs less then one comp, keeps me kinda active and my golfing is worse then my bbq most of the time

deguerre
08-17-2012, 10:01 AM
He's forced to quit. The way comp BBQ is nowadays, if you miss a month you're out of the draft. He's gonna be out of it for 3 years! He would have to completely start over.

This is just really sad. I'm not sure how this could have been best resolved but my gut tells me this punishment was too harsh.

He's only forced to quit KCBS..."shoulder, ribs and whole hog"...don'tcha know.

Outnumbered
08-17-2012, 10:04 AM
Bmonkman, since your relatively close, i can tell you that my daughter is part of our team, 10 years old, and aside from the occasional f bomb or something like that competition folks go out of their way to police themselves when she is around.

In fact everyone seems to know her and ask about her when she cant make it, she really loves seeing the people and competing.

Don't let 1 incident sway you from trying it, its a fun frustrating time, but the people you will meet you will find yourself looking forward to seeing next competition.

I have three girls ranging from 5-11 y/old. My experience is very similar to this and I have not seen anything at a comp that makes me uncomfortable having them there at all.

I believe the key thing to keep in mind here is that the apron in question is certainly extraordinary, which is why it's such a big issue. These things simply don't happen at a vast majority of the contests.

Dustaway
08-17-2012, 10:41 AM
This is my opinion the BOD acted out of fear of potently loosing the cash cow of the marketing arm of MIM and SAMS. unfortunately KCBS has become so large and flush with cash that in my opinion it no longer represents the cooks in every decision it seems that the BOD always looks at how this will effect the bottom line.

unfortunately cooks are there own worse enemy if you really wanted to get the attention of the BOD & KCBS all you need to do is pick a large contest or two and NOT cook it numbers speak BUT here is the problem cooks don't stick together you will have few that don't show up but you'll have plenty that will.

I can see how the team can be not allowed to cook that contest by that promoter but really how can KCBS enforce it's suspension other than SAMS event no where have I seen on entry that you haft to be a member of KCBS or in good standing in order to cook an event?

Smokin' Bad Habit
08-17-2012, 10:51 AM
and i think of all the stupid sh*t i have done!.......3 years is bull sh*t....way to harsh!

sitnfat
08-17-2012, 10:54 AM
Daniel you need to continue to cook there are plenty of non sanctioned cooks took my kids to a couple this year they are cheaper just as much fun and a lot less stress. Plus you can do MBN. I'm gonna try one hopefully later this year.

jim7226
08-17-2012, 11:24 AM
The upshot I take from this entire discussion is it's time to put more emphasis on cooking and competing with less on being a comedian.

bmonkman
08-17-2012, 12:24 PM
@Goddahavit and @Outnumbered - thanks for your comments. They help.

@jim7226 - well said.

Big Poppa
08-17-2012, 12:29 PM
Here is the dumbest thing I can do...comment on this

First off...I read every day, week, and year the displeasure people here have with KCBS. I get my $35.00 worth so I sometimes don't understand the bashing. Call me a nut but I almost like KCBS. I also predicted that shortly after the brethren were elected to the board that they would be tarred and feathered at first light. Bashing KCBS is sometimes a sport here. Are they perfect? No. It is a Board run organization of uncompensated volunteers. That being said a camel is a horse designed by committee.

Secondly...there are many reasons why all of the information is usually not released...first privacy and ( check your yellow pages....more pages for attorneys than doctors in most towns.) liability. I always believe that if something doesn't seem right and I don't have all the facts in a situation then I need to give the people who serve that do have the facts the benefit of the doubt. I am too old to be judge and jury without hearing both sides. Could have been a harsh, lenient, perfect decsion?....I don't know. The Boardd can't release the additional referenced issues...maybe the team can?

But the biggest point is that we are lucky enough to have a hobby that you have a slight chance of breaking even in. We are cooking for bragging rights, camaraderie,
joy, and MONEY. That sort of make us professional....we do something for money. We have to make sure that we behave in a way that makes a sponsor happy to have invested in our sport. Pretty simple...have a good time but use your head.

bbqczar
08-17-2012, 12:35 PM
Were you present during disciplinary deliberations? Do you have any evidece whatsoever that this isn't exactly what happened?

Who knows what decisions my mind will will make in a week or a month or a year, but at this point, I have no intent to request this board or any future one to commute my ban. There also is no appeals process, nor would I request one. I told the board that I would accept their punishment, and I shall. As a result of this, I will likely never return to KCBS competitions, nor any other competitions. It's sad. All of my best friends are BBQ people. It's been a part of my life for 5 years, and in the blink of an eye, it's gone.

dmp

No,don't leave BBQ competitions,don't let the actions of some BOD members that don't have good sense on making puishments drive you away.Like I said earlier there are ALOT of other BBQ associations and they have great contests and in some instances much better integrity than KCBS does.Don't let the BOD win here and drive you from a great hobby,they screwed up,they know it,but don't walk away,thats probably what they want. I say continue competing and show KCBS that you messed up,but didn't deserve this especially when other have done 100 TIMES WORSE and have gotten off with little more than a warning,thats the way the BOD works though.I agree with others this will make it easier come election time and it may make some re-think re-newing their KCBS membership,and may keep ALOT who aren't members from becoming members.Very sad this happened,nobody wins here,everyone looses because of an unneccessary long ban period and it shouldn't of had to be this way.

Kirk
08-17-2012, 12:37 PM
Bmonkman, since your relatively close, i can tell you that my daughter is part of our team, 10 years old, and aside from the occasional f bomb or something like that competition folks go out of their way to police themselves when she is around.
And that's exactly the way it should be. If more people did that, the board wouldn't have been put in the position they were.

It's funny this topic has come up because I was involved in a similar situation at a non sanctioned event this past Saturday. We had a few female guests at our site that got way out of hand. Within 2 hrs of showing up, they were chitfaced drunk, loud and beyond obnoxious. F bombs all over the place, lifting their shirts, talking about sex REALLY loud, even puking behind our cookers. I was mortified.

I had been busy prepping meat and didn't realize how bad things were getting until it was too late. I told them they needed to knock it off because there were so many families around. Right about that time the gentleman cooking next to us told me that his grandkids were going to be there in a minute and he didn't want them exposed to that. I felt about 2 inches tall. All I could do was apologize and assure him it would not happen again. I was very suprised that I didn't hear anything from the contest organizers about it. We didn't go unpunished though because the bbq gods delivered us the worst scores in the history of our team.

The point I'm trying to make is that stuff happens and it is up to us to be sure it doesn't get disrespectful and out of control. I think the dude with the apron probably got a little carried away and made a bad decision to wear that thing on stage. It's a shame no one said anything before it got to this point but I can understand how it happened.

Not that my opinion means much but I believe that the BOD was right to punish the individual and the head cook. I'm no saint but I think I would have been kinda p.o.'d if I had been there to see it. I'm glad they took action to discourage this kind of thing from happening again and I think the sport is better off for timely decisions like that. But I do agree with many here that the punishment is a bit severe, considering the offense. Yes it was stupid and disrespectful but I think the message could've been sent with a 1 year suspension (max) and / or probation with a stern warning. JMHO

bbqczar
08-17-2012, 12:39 PM
Here is the dumbest thing I can do...comment on this



But the biggest point is that we are lucky enough to have a hobby that you have a slight chance of breaking even in. We are cooking for bragging rights, camaraderie,
joy, and MONEY. That sort of make us professional....we do something for money. We have to make sure that we behave in a way that makes a sponsor happy to have invested in our sport. Pretty simple...have a good time but use your head.

I agree 100% and the BOD has now taken that away from someone for 3 years and he may not return now,yeah thats great for the hobby and for KCBS itself.:roll:

nthole
08-17-2012, 01:26 PM
I agree 100% and the BOD has now taken that away from someone for 3 years and he may not return now,yeah thats great for the hobby and for KCBS itself.:roll:

Because they were concerned that that person, or persons acting like that person could take it away from everyone forever and didn't want that to happen. :roll:

Pit Master Fraz
08-17-2012, 01:26 PM
This decision has taken roughly 35k out of the BBQ economy.

Kirk
08-17-2012, 01:42 PM
^^^ I'm kinda surprised they penalized you at all, even if was just probation.

didisea
08-17-2012, 01:58 PM
Just going on record with my BBQ brothers and sisters, if I say anything to you about your behavior or actions you may have done or are about to do at a contest, I am only telling you to check yourself because I WANT to keep on competing against you, and I am not an uptight, prudish, bitch who wants to get you thrown out of BBQ.

There may come a time when I need to save you from yourself, and I would hope my brothers and sisters would do the same for me.

edzwingz
08-17-2012, 01:59 PM
Wow. SMH.

Midnight Smoke
08-17-2012, 02:19 PM
I have read through this entire thread, admitting that some long winded and one liner posts got the speed read. Hopefully I did not miss an important fact along the way.

I will say that the offense sounds to be in very poor taste which I believe is already accepted. Not sure which apron was displayed, someone mentioned the David Apron but said it was not that one.

Seems I remember a post showing the David Apron on this forum and I took it as very poor taste for a family BBQ forum with the quality of this one. After bringing it to MOD's attention, my concern was shot down (not by the MOD, I am guessing from the OP) and given the example of "It was like art, think Michelangelo".

I was really set back by this as it appears I was alone in my concerns, most everyone else here must have thought it was funny as the post reappeared. For the record, I still think it was inappropriate to be allowed on the forum. When I have a 5 year old Granddaughter walk up behind me, I should not need to worry that my favorite BBQ site allows graphic depictions of the male anatomy.

Not sure exactly what I am trying to get across other than where do we draw the line as to what is acceptable and what is vulgar.

At a public event this type of display should never be considered as acceptable and actions needed to be taken. Do I think the punishment was excessive, yes. I am not sure how the officials are required to react in a situation like this but it would seem that a heavy fine that could be donated to a local charity along with probation would have been a better action.

Just my opinion...

Doorbusters
08-17-2012, 02:31 PM
I remember when BBQ comps were fun! I retired after only a few because of the cost involved and it has only gotten worse with all the exposure. I was like most of you, my kids were there and everyone made sure when they were present to watch themselves, of course being 6'3" and 275 and issuing warnings may have helped. It was only a matter of time before being politically correct reared its ugly head in our sport/hobby. There is so darn much money involved now someone has to police it. I know a few of the board members personally and honestly, they are some of the finest people I know, I do not envy them one bit for being put in that position. Those of you "judging" them need to chill the fark out and put yourself in that situation. While I do not agree with the decision I also know there is probably more to the story I do not know. It is sad to see someone invest that much money only to have a "board" strip him of the opportunity to compete. To ALL involved, I wish you good luck and HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME!!

TTNuge
08-17-2012, 03:12 PM
The talk of being prude or political correctness gone wrong is a farking joke here people. Do any of you, or your spouses keep your dildos, fleshlights and vibrators sitting out on the dresser, or on the coffee table when your friends, family and children are around? Why not? It's funny and apparently every 5 year old child out there has been exposed to this and so much more already.

JimmyDAL
08-17-2012, 03:18 PM
Let's all just move on and let the team involved come to terms with the Board. I just wished someone would have approached the owner of the apron in question and advised them of the appropriateness of it ahead of time, not that it would have mattered but it would be known that they were approached before hand. I'm done with this.

Pack-A-Smokes
08-17-2012, 03:29 PM
Let's all just move on and let the team involved come to terms with the Board. I just wished someone would have approached the owner of the apron in question and advised them of the appropriateness of it ahead of time, not that it would have mattered but it would be known that they were approached before hand. I'm done with this.

I am with you on this. If someone would have just had the nerve to say, "Hey, you might want to rethink wearing that". I am sure those sitting around him noticed it. I hope nobody quits our wonderful hobby due to this and I dearly hope the board reconsiders this decision.

mjl
08-17-2012, 05:14 PM
Shame to see a 3 yr ban and 2 yrs of probation become a self imposed lifetime ban. Based on his actions and how he has conducted himself in this situation, the bbq world could use more dmprantz types, not less. Having used bad judgement myself, on many occasions, I will also reserve judgement on his teammate.

I disagree 100% with the severity of the penalty. However, I do accept the BOD's ability to render judgement. They were elected by the members to exercise their judgment in the best interests of the KCBS. If we aren't happy with that judgement, we can reconsider our votes.



ML

paydabill
08-17-2012, 05:29 PM
Wow - 3 years - and a person who makes up score cards get 1 year.

Hmm - What happens if you play distasteful music in your site - I know of at least one board member that has with kids around.

Sould you get banned for 3 years - better take I Like Big Butts off of the IPOD player

VA BBQ PIRATES
08-17-2012, 05:52 PM
I am with you on this. If someone would have just had the nerve to say, "Hey, you might want to rethink wearing that". I am sure those sitting around him noticed it. I hope nobody quits our wonderful hobby due to this and I dearly hope the board reconsiders this decision.

Can you imagine how that conversation would go?

BBQ Guy: “Hey dude I wouldn’t wear that if I were you.”

Apron Guy: “It’s gonna be hilarious if we get a call. What’s the worst that can happen, some little old lady gets offended?”

BBQ Guy: “No Man! The KCBS BOD will hold a special closed meeting and some will want you banned for life but cooler heads will prevail and you’ll only be banned for 3 year years!”

Apron Guy: “Yeah right”

BBQ Guy: “Plus your teammate who’s not here and doesn’t even know you’re wearing it will be banned for 3 years too!”

Apron Guy: “You must be smokin’ something!”

BBQ Guy: “Wait there’s more. After the 3 year ban you both will be on 2 years probation.”

Apron Guy: “OK I’ll bite. What BBQ probation?”

BBQ Guy: “No one knows for sure but I think it means you have to skype with one of the BOD once a month to show them you’re not wearing the apron.”

Apron Guy: “Get away from me you wacko!”

BBQ Guy: “OK but put on this foil hat”

Apron Guy: “I’m not wearing a foil hat!”

BBQ Guy: “You have to or the aliens will control your thoughts!”

sdbbq1234
08-17-2012, 06:06 PM
This is too much.

I have been reading this since the first post.

I have been keeping my wife informed to the posts, etc..., and the bods ruling.

Even she said, "3 years????!!! WTH? Isn't that a little extreme?"

I agree with the majority here; way overboard on the punishment.

I hope there is some chance kcbs will reconsider on their own.

wallace

wmaes47
08-17-2012, 06:46 PM
POLICY ON ANTI-DISCRIMINATION AND ANTI-HARASSMENT
It is the policy of the KCBS to make all decisions on the basis of merit and to prohibit discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, age, disability, ancestry, marital status, military or veteran status, or any other category protected by applicable federal, state or local law. This policy governs all aspects of KCBS events, and all judges and KCBS personnel are required to abide by this Policy. KCBS also strictly prohibits retaliation against anyone who in good faith exercises his or her rights under this policy.

In addition, the Society is committed to maintaining events free from harassment based on any protected characteristic. Harassment has no place at any of our events. Accordingly, KCBS does not authorize and will not tolerate any form of harassment of or by any employee, member of management, judge, or other individual engaged in KCBS activities, or on KCBS property.

Sexual harassment and harassment that is based on an individual’s race, color, religion, national origin, sex, age, disability, ancestry, marital status, military or veteran status, or any other category protected by applicable federal, state or local law are prohibited. This policy also prohibits retaliation or adverse action against any individual because he or she has exercised his or her rights under this policy or applicable law, or has taken part in or cooperated in any investigation or proceeding relating to either.

Harassment may encompass a wide range of physical, verbal (oral and written) and visual/non-verbal behaviors. "Sexual harassment" includes any unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, or any conduct of a sexual nature when:
 Submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of participation;
 Submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as the basis for decisions affecting such individual; or
 Such conduct has the purpose or effect of substantially interfering with an individual’s participation or creating an intimidating, hostile or offensive environment.

Sexual harassment may include the following:
 Unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors;
 Offensive touching;
 Other verbal or physical conduct of a sexually suggestive nature;
 Verbal harassment of a sexual nature including jokes, innuendoes, graphic or inappropriate commentaries about an individual’s body;
 Use of sexually degrading, offensive or hostile terms; and
 Displays of sexually suggestive objects, pictures or magazines.

Other forms of harassment include conduct that is offensive or shows hostility toward an employee because of his or her race, color, religion, national origin, sex, age, disability, ancestry, marital status, military or veteran status, or any other category protected by applicable federal, state or local law.

You have the obligation to report the following:
 If you have been harassed by another employee, member of management, judge, participant or spectator;
 If you have witnessed or observed first-hand the harassment of another;
 If harassment has been reported to you by anyone; and
 If you have been retaliated against for reporting a violation of this policy or for cooperating in any investigation.

Any of the above situations are to be immediately reported. They should be reported as soon as they occur or immediately after you obtain knowledge that there has been a possible violation of this policy.

Harassment is a serious matter and will not be tolerated. If KCBS determines that a
violation has occurred, it will take all appropriate action as warranted under the circumstances.

deepsouth
08-17-2012, 07:37 PM
"Displays of sexually suggestive objects, pictures or magazines."

other unpunished examples of this ITT.

Ford
08-17-2012, 08:08 PM
"Displays of sexually suggestive objects, pictures or magazines."

other unpunished examples of this ITT.


I bet 40 to 50% of team logos fall into this category. Not sure where the info on the KCBS policy came from. It was not in bylaws last I saw.

dmprantz
08-17-2012, 08:08 PM
Any one know if the above anti-harrassment policy is for employment or events? Any one know if it is a sexual harrassment and hostile workplace policy, or if it applies to all forms of harrassment, even not for protected classes? It seems like a mish-mash and is hard to tell.

dmp