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View Full Version : Silly KCBS Rules Question


dmprantz
08-02-2012, 12:47 PM
The first rule of KCBS says that judges may not fratenize with teams "on turn-in day" until after judging. When does turn-in day start for this rule?

Do judges have to leave teams' sites by 12:00 Saturday morning for a Friday-Saturday event?

Do judges have to leave teams' sites by sunrise?

Can judges hang around with teams until the judges' meeting?

I'm just curious, as I know some judges do like to hang out Friday nights.

dmp

Jorge
08-02-2012, 12:51 PM
The need to leave by midnight, and not return until after judging is complete. Saying good morning etc. isn't a problem, but they shouldn't be 'hanging out'.

That's my personal interpretation and may not represent that of KCBS, or the board......

early mornin' smokin'
08-02-2012, 01:05 PM
personally, as far as hanging out goes, a lot of things go on pre cook. Injections, pre rubs, things laying around a site, ie commercial rubs, sauces. A lot of things can be seen, and an experienced judge could possibly put thoughts together on whos using what. In my eyes, judges hanging out at team sites should be limited to after turn ins only.

Q-Dat
08-02-2012, 01:23 PM
personally, as far as hanging out goes, a lot of things go on pre cook. Injections, pre rubs, things laying around a site, ie commercial rubs, sauces. A lot of things can be seen, and an experienced judge could possibly put thoughts together on whos using what. In my eyes, judges hanging out at team sites should be limited to after turn ins only.

I agree. Its not likely to ever be a factor in large contests with say 50 or more teams, but at small events with 25 or so, I could definitely see the possibility for product recognition, especially for those judges with very discerning palates.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
08-02-2012, 02:06 PM
I understand what Q-Dat and Early Morning Smokin are saying but i believe Jorge has it right. It is suggested that judges leave at a reasonable time Friday evening if visiting with friends or a team and i would think midnight would be an absolute cutoff. In general when visiting friends, most people are just hanging out, having a cold one or just shooting the breeze and not necessarily watching prep, injections, seasonings. On Saturday morning, i don't see harm in passing by and saying "good morning", "good luck" or what have you as long as the judges are not in the cook site witnessing cooking. This is one issue i believe KCBS has right. IMHO, anyone who is judging in any competition should not, On the Day of Turn In, be in the cook site while food is being prepared, cooked, sauced, cut, boxed etc and then walk over and sit as a judge. There would be something inherently wrong about that!!!

Jorge
08-02-2012, 02:14 PM
At what point is the line crossed? Should people be punished for posting pics of their boxes? How about when they go on a forum and discuss their process and/or ingredients or flavor profile?

I understand the point, but where do you draw the line since the end result is essentially the same. Taking it to an extreme everyone should be required to do all work in a closed canopy or RV so that nobody can see anything that might influence judging etc.... Of course that opens the door for cheating one way or the other.

My personal opinion is that in some cases we may be overthinking this.

pat
08-02-2012, 02:50 PM
I know this is completely off topic with fraternization, but are cell phones prohibited in the judges tent? If not, what is stopping a team from posting turn in pics on facebook while friends are judging and could see it posted before possibly hitting there table?

Scottie
08-02-2012, 02:50 PM
A judge walks by my site on a Saturday morning. They say hello, i step out of my site and talk to them in the walkway. Just so no one thinks something is going on... pretty simple.

dmprantz
08-02-2012, 03:04 PM
Thanks guys. I really wasn't trying to start a discussion of how to cheat nor how to avoid it. I just wanted to know what the general enterpretation of that rule was without calling a rep. I think that if a team and judge wanted to collude, there are lots of ways to do it without being on site, but the rule does prevent "accidental" collusion. Still, I was just wondering what the cutoff is, and midnight makes sense to me. Thanks again!

dmp

Fat Freddy
08-02-2012, 03:04 PM
As a judge I had never even considered going to any of the competitors area on Friday or until after awards on Saturday. Then I have started competing and at one contest had a few judges come by and wish luck on Friday night and again Saturday morning. I appreciated that.

To me it made me feel that the judges that did come by actually appreciated what we as cooks go through and maybe if more judges were not concerned to do that i think maybe there would be more understanding of both sides.

From now on when I judge I will do my best to go by and thank each team for their efforts Friday or Saturday morning.

The particular contest I am speaking of is Storm Lake Iowa contest, one judge in particular came by Friday evening just to say hi. He came back Saturday morning to wish us good luck and then again after judging but before awards to thank the competitors for great BBQ(obviously he did not get any of mine that day). Each time he was maybe at my spot a minute or two at most but this really impressed me.

mobow
08-02-2012, 03:06 PM
I think the midnight standard works fine. Cell phones are to be off during judging unless you are on call for emergency services. keith

Slamdunkpro
08-02-2012, 03:14 PM
My personal opinion is that in some cases we may be overthinking this.
I'm in this camp. When I'm prepping on Friday I really don't want anyone around and have no problem saying so. But since I'm done prepping by the cook's meeting, if there are judges around Friday night, I don't care if they come by and stay awhile.

ModelMaker
08-02-2012, 04:51 PM
All judges need to be out of the teams site at midnight, period. Just two weeks ago I was sittin and gabbing and at midnight I stood up wished everyone well and left the area.
As far as seeing stuff... I stood in the trailer while brisket was being injected, not to see the process but to talk to a friend. I can say with 100% honesty that I couldn't pick his meat out of a line up ten minutes later, let alone cooked and in a box the next morning.
If I was concerned I wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Common sense is all that's ever required.
Ed

Rich Parker
08-02-2012, 04:57 PM
Judges should be encouraged to hang out and shoot the chit with cooks on Friday not punished for it.

Bentley
08-02-2012, 05:46 PM
I think the midnight standard works fine. Cell phones are to be off during judging unless you are on call for emergency services. keith


If you have to get up and respond to an emergency as part of your job, and possible leave the table to intervine while a meat is being judged...you have no business sitting at a table and judging my entries...Sorry, come judge when you are not on call!

2Fat
08-02-2012, 06:34 PM
My personal opinion is that in some cases we may be overthinking this.

sometimes long for the "old days"when all the grub started at nine and sharing a morning shot with friends wasn't a crime!

sitnfat
08-02-2012, 06:39 PM
Do y'all keep rubs, injections, etc in the exact containers? A judge or anyone for that matter that walks up while I am prepping won't have a clue what rubs or spices I am using. Now I have heard of some getting ran off with a knife on time :tape:

dmprantz
08-02-2012, 07:36 PM
It was a sauce brush. Anyway, I like to store rubs in the completely wrong bottle, so as to confuse folks....at least until I get enough Lawry's bottles ;-)

dmp

Rookie'48
08-02-2012, 11:53 PM
I'm pretty well known for being out & about on Friday evening. One of our Iowa teams likes to set an alarm on his phone for 11:55 pm - he names the alarm "Compton" :shock:. I'm out of there before midnight and when I come back in the morning I keep on walking. I'm saying "Good morning, good luck" or "May you be the last one called" or whatever - but I don't stop.

The rules don't give a definite cut-off time for visiting, like stating that you have to leave before 12:01 am, but I think that "day of judging" would start at midnight. There was a team where the parents of one of the cooks stayed in the RV overnight, helped with chicken prep the next morning and then went in to judge :mad2:. That's one of the reasons that there is a "no fraternization rule". There was another instance where a judge went over to a team after the judges meeting but before judging and had a bite of their chicken :mad2:. That's another reason we have that rule.

But back to the origonal question - yep, be gone by midnight and don't "stop & talk" until judging is done for the day. That way there won't be any problems :-D.

Plowboy
08-03-2012, 01:36 PM
At what point is the line crossed? Should people be punished for posting pics of their boxes? How about when they go on a forum and discuss their process and/or ingredients or flavor profile?

I understand the point, but where do you draw the line since the end result is essentially the same. Taking it to an extreme everyone should be required to do all work in a closed canopy or RV so that nobody can see anything that might influence judging etc.... Of course that opens the door for cheating one way or the other.

My personal opinion is that in some cases we may be overthinking this.

Forget all that and just hold inexpensive cooking classes where judges can come and learn all of the BEST flavor profiles that they need to watch for next season. Or give goodie bags of all the sauces and rubs you use to the master judges (or finals judges if you are MBN) in your area. Or invite several area masters judges to your home for tastings of the new flavors you are thinking of for next season.

I've never done any of these, but I hear they all work pretty well. Might have to try a few.

dmprantz
08-03-2012, 03:44 PM
I just copy the people who do that so that my food is indistinguishable from theirs. Cheaper and takes less time in the long run. Yardbird and Sweet 180 all the way!

dmp

Balls Casten
08-03-2012, 04:33 PM
There was a team where the parents of one of the cooks stayed in the RV overnight, helped with chicken prep the next morning and then went in to judge :mad2:. That's one of the reasons that there is a "no fraternization rule".

Against my better judgement .. I have to ask. Who was it?

Plowboy
08-03-2012, 10:20 PM
I just copy the people who do that so that my food is indistinguishable from theirs. Cheaper and takes less time in the long run. Yardbird and Sweet 180 all the way!

dmp

Hey! You just gave away my entire rib recipe! :mad2: