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Smokin' Gnome BBQ
07-31-2012, 07:05 PM
If you had the chance ( within the rules) to raise your chance to get into the Jack ( due to not all the criteria being met), would you sell out another competitor? its the Jack and we are all competitors. I belive rules are rules. But I also understand the whole Brethren motife. what would you do? I guess my question is would you "mention" an event that didnt qualify to increase your chances?

Thanks!

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
07-31-2012, 07:11 PM
If their comp didn't qualify and mine did hell yes. It's to damn hard to get in to have somebody take your spot over an event that didn't qualify. Brethren or not you need to play by the rules.

Coz
07-31-2012, 07:11 PM
If you are saying that some one is trying to use an event that shouldnt be a qualifier , I would question it . Remember you spent the money to earn your spot in the draw and if ya got beat out of it because some one slid thru on an event that shouldnt have been used you will be upset. Some where in the Brethren motife it should also apply to tryin to weasel your way in when it isnt right. .

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
07-31-2012, 07:14 PM
I'll post an edit to mine. If the comp met all the requirements and the organizer screwed up the paperwork or something like that I would have a hard time with it. Its not the teams fault the organizer screwed up.

K-Train
07-31-2012, 07:32 PM
Tough call there. Thankfully we aren't good enough that I have to worry about that.

boogiesnap
07-31-2012, 08:20 PM
spill it.

wassup?

Jorge
07-31-2012, 08:53 PM
I'd ask that question privately, and then come to a decision. Now you've got a big audience.

Andrews
07-31-2012, 09:02 PM
I'd be damn sure there was an issue and then I'd raise hell for what's right!

We come to win not be cheated out of something...

White Dog BBQ
07-31-2012, 09:27 PM
If I were confident an event didn't qualify, before mentioning it to the Jack, I would mention it to the team that won it and see how they handle it. As a gentleman and a classy competitor, you owe that to the team in question. If they won't do anything about it and you're confident you are right, then at that point I think you can raise it with the Jack. But you need to be prepared to suffer the consequences of hurting your relationship with the team in question, the organizer of the event in question and members of the BBQ community in general. Justified or not, some people will not look kindly upon it.

Would I do it? I don't know. Before raising it with the other team I would want to be very sure that it's clear the event didn't qualify.

Cue's Your Daddy
07-31-2012, 09:46 PM
I don't think it should ever get to that point that you have to police your chances to get into a qualifier. That is the responsibility of the sanctioning body and the reps, or so you hope. And one has to believe that if you are aware of a situation, that you aren't the only one aware.

Just Smokin' Around
07-31-2012, 09:48 PM
Who would you "mention" it to? The JD folks so they don't add the GC team into the state draw? I think I would want to know the exact circumstances you're referring to (I think I might), But, if the event didn't meet the rules to be a qualifier, then it doesn't qualify, and, SHOULD HAVE been known up front. If the organizer misrepresented their event (lied to the competitors) and it's not a qualifier, then it should have been mentioned by the reps at the end of the contest. It should probably still be "mentioned", but, that is a tough call. It could paint you as the bad guy for ratting out the other team, and the real a$$hole jerk (the organizer) gets off.

Teams being misled by a screwed up organizer is punishing the wrong person. The GC team goes away thinking they're at least in the draw, but, NO, they got screwed up the butt by a deceitful organizer. People do certain contest because they think - or are told by the organizer - it's Jack eligible.

I think the organizer should be punished by the sanctioning organization, probably KCBS in this instance. Banned from organizing for x number of years is all they can really do, but, at least it highlights who the true bad guy is.

If nothing else, after all is said and done come November (after the Jack is over), I would at least tell KCBS and request sanctions be levied against the organizer if they misrepresented their contest. If the reps turned a blind eye to an obvious misrepresentation, then they should be sanctioned as well. We work too hard to be unknowingly screwed over.

White Dog BBQ
07-31-2012, 10:07 PM
Teams being misled by a screwed up organizer is punishing the wrong person. The GC team goes away thinking they're at least in the draw, but, NO, they got screwed up the butt by a deceitful organizer. People do certain contest because they think - or are told by the organizer - it's Jack eligible.

I think the organizer should be punished by the sanctioning organization, probably KCBS in this instance. Banned from organizing for x number of years is all they can really do, but, at least it highlights who the true bad guy is.

What about a situation where the organizer was clear up front that they might not hit 25 teams, or where there are 25 teams but one team doesn't get a category in on time? My understanding is that if you don't have 25 entries judged in all four categories (15 for a first year event), then the event doesn't qualify.

I understand what you are referring to, and if an organizer deliberately lies to competitors there should be sanctions, but I can easily see a situation where an event doesn't qualify due to no fault of the organizer.

Just Smokin' Around
07-31-2012, 10:21 PM
What about a situation where the organizer was clear up front that they might not hit 25 teams, or where there are 25 teams but one team doesn't get a category in on time? My understanding is that if you don't have 25 entries judged in all four categories (15 for a first year event), then the event doesn't qualify.

I understand what you are referring to, and if an organizer deliberately lies to competitors there should be sanctions, but I can easily see a situation where an event doesn't qualify due to no fault of the organizer.

I would agree there are circumstances like this that would cause a contest to fail as a qualifier, and the organizer isn't to blame and shouldn't be held accountable. But, it should be noted at the contest so teams don't walk away thinking they are in the draw or have another team debating if they should say something. I think the organizer has to mail paperwork into the Jack after the contest. They shouldn't be mailing it if it doesn't qualify.

If it went down the way you mention, then at least the organizer was up front and I give them credit for that. I've done contests where it wasn't known if it would be a Jack qualifier or not because of the number of teams. I knew that going in. That why I said I would need to know the EXACT circumstances.

swamprb
07-31-2012, 10:58 PM
...Morals and the Jack...

as they say...it's clear as mud!

Scottie
07-31-2012, 11:03 PM
I think we have seen what a team will try to do to get in the Jack the last couple of years. Sorry, its insulting and disrespectful to me. If you have to cheat and lie to get in to a contest that you supposedly" respect, why disrespect it with those kind of actions?

Rookie'48
07-31-2012, 11:58 PM
. . . or where there are 25 teams but one team doesn't get a category in on time?

If a team turns in late (and it is accepted late) that team gets ones across the board. That rule was put in just to cover things like what White Dog mentioned above.

JD McGee
08-01-2012, 12:32 AM
I think it is sad that this question even had to be asked...:mmph: This tells me someone dropped the ball big time. To answer your question...I would report ANY rule violation regardless of who benefits or get penalized from it...right is right and there is no gray area to it!

Alexa RnQ
08-01-2012, 12:54 AM
Claiming a contest that isn't a qualifier?
Oh, that's so 2010 and 2011. http://www.divaherself.com/whatever.gif

yelonutz
08-01-2012, 01:09 AM
I get so damn sick of shaded accusations and innuendoes from people on this forum. If you wish to accuse a competitor of wrong doing then sack up and name him or her and the contest in question, Scottie and Vince lend no credence to this post since they have hated Harry Soo for years and will never recognize what he is capable of doing. Have some balls, say what you mean or get the hell off the forum.

NUTZ

Robert
08-01-2012, 05:44 AM
Ethics can be loosely defined as actions you would take if no one was looking.
Case in point. Last year we won the Sam's club event in Conroe, Texas. No govenor's proclamation designating it as a state championship. In August we received letters from both the Royal and The Jack congratulating us on the win, with applications to both contests. I sent an e-mail to each, graciously thanking them for the invite, but, informing them that unless the rules had changed, we had not won a qualifier. I received an e-mail from both, thanking me for being honest and wishing me good luck in the future. I would hate to think what the consequences would have been if I hadn't done the right thing.

I do not know the circumstances the OP is alluding to. But, I suggest that you do the right thing, whtever that might be.

Robert

mjl
08-01-2012, 06:01 AM
Rules are rules. Not knowing the situation, hard to give much in the way of advice. I would NOT write a letter to Brown-Forman.

Good luck.

ML

Cue's Your Daddy
08-01-2012, 06:39 AM
Ethics can be loosely defined as actions you would take if no one was looking.
Case in point. Last year we won the Sam's club event in Conroe, Texas. No govenor's proclamation designating it as a state championship. In August we received letters from both the Royal and The Jack congratulating us on the win, with applications to both contests. I sent an e-mail to each, graciously thanking them for the invite, but, informing them that unless the rules had changed, we had not won a qualifier. I received an e-mail from both, thanking me for being honest and wishing me good luck in the future. I would hate to think what the consequences would have been if I hadn't done the right thing.

I do not know the circumstances the OP is alluding to. But, I suggest that you do the right thing, whtever that might be.

Robert

Wow. You are an awesome person. That's character and u hope good karma goes with you. Amazing

Sledneck
08-01-2012, 07:47 AM
Claiming a contest that isn't a qualifier?
Oh, that's so 2010 and 2011. http://www.divaherself.com/whatever.gif

Now THATS the funniest thing ive read on here in a while. Thanks

Svenmac
08-01-2012, 08:46 AM
I hope your not talking about one of the contest that Harry Soo won, he already has it posted on this website that he has 7 and has a email from JD confirming his invite.

Pitmaster T
08-01-2012, 08:50 AM
I really don't get, why, with as many guns as some of the members have on here, this is a problem that cannot be resolved without coming in here. You are a trigger away from getting what you want!

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
08-01-2012, 09:36 AM
this was kinda a random thought. My understanding was a team ( from VA,I think) got an invite and they later took it back a couple of years ago. I was just wondering about the motivation or how something like that could happen. I was thinking that possibly someone was tring to position them selfs better to get in the Jack, or that the organizer may have made a mistake.

big matt
08-01-2012, 09:48 AM
I get so damn sick of shaded accusations and innuendoes from people on this forum. If you wish to accuse a competitor of wrong doing then sack up and name him or her and the contest in question, Scottie and Vince lend no credence to this post since they have hated Harry Soo for years and will never recognize what he is capable of doing. Have some balls, say what you mean or get the hell off the forum.

NUTZ

Aww boo hoo..how did any of this affect you or your team?..its just words typed on the net that you can chose to ignore why worry about it?.

Scottie
08-01-2012, 10:02 AM
Oh I have plenty of balls. but to come out and call someone, by name a cheat, using race as issue, embelishing their application is not the Brethren way. So for you to come out and think and point fingers may be off course. Although, I don't disagree with any of that. We aren't supposed to throw fellow Brethren under the bus, as you did. And I will also beg to differ that these are innuendos, as they have appeared on blogs, on radio inrterviews and print interviews. So it's not like I am making anything up.

But to throw race into a INVITATIONAL contest is above a low blow. Why would anyone throw that in a major corporations face? If you cared so much about a contest, why would you jeapordize the future of the contest by writing the CEO, Diversity Officer and Corporation Counsel?

So do I have hatred for Harry? I don't even know who he is. Do I disrepect the actions that he has done over the last 2 years to cure his desires and needs? I certainly do. Why would I want any harm on a contest that means so much to me and my fellow Jack winners? He has disrepected the contest and whether you want to agree or not, that is fair. I know how I feel, how many of my fellow Jack winners feel and a good chunk of folks out on the circuit.

So that is why I do not name names. Will this post get deleted? Probagbly. Should it get deleted? Absolutely not when you are saying me and Alexa (??!!) don't have balls. You called us out, I didn't call anyone out.



I get so damn sick of shaded accusations and innuendoes from people on this forum. If you wish to accuse a competitor of wrong doing then sack up and name him or her and the contest in question, Scottie and Vince lend no credence to this post since they have hated Harry Soo for years and will never recognize what he is capable of doing. Have some balls, say what you mean or get the hell off the forum.

NUTZ

Scottie
08-01-2012, 10:07 AM
I know the team. The Jack determined that the contest did not meet the qualifications for their contest, after the draw. It was an unfortunate circumstance, but one that the Jack had to follow, or they would not be following their own rules.


this was kinda a random thought. My understanding was a team ( from VA,I think) got an invite and they later took it back a couple of years ago. I was just wondering about the motivation or how something like that could happen. I was thinking that possibly someone was tring to position them selfs better to get in the Jack, or that the organizer may have made a mistake.

early mornin' smokin'
08-01-2012, 10:40 AM
how about morals in general? if the jack makes a decision, it's their final decision. Who are any of us to point out something they haven't noticed. So much for the "brethren spirit" There are governing bodies for KCBS, the Jack and everything else we do and compete in. Let them handle the rules and enforcement and concentrate on your own stuff.

dmprantz
08-01-2012, 10:59 AM
This thread was never about Harry Soo until two people acted like immature cry-babies and brought him into it through mean spirited innuendo. Yeah, I said it. I think it makes you look really petty to continually insult this man in public unprovoked. I think it makes the BBQ Brethren look equally as bad to condone it. "Moral" people don't act that way. I said it again.

dmp

Scottie
08-01-2012, 11:48 AM
For the record. I never brought him in. I responded to the high morals of being called not having any balls.

Look, i didn't make up anything i said. As i stated, this was all public knowledge. I would suggest next next time not post your letter to Brown-Forman all over the internet .

I also answered Sal's original question.

Wampus
08-01-2012, 12:24 PM
This thread was never about Harry Soo until two people acted like immature cry-babies and brought him into it through mean spirited innuendo. Yeah, I said it. I think it makes you look really petty to continually insult this man in public unprovoked. I think it makes the BBQ Brethren look equally as bad to condone it. "Moral" people don't act that way. I said it again.

dmp

Not that my opinion matters, but that's not how I read this thread's development at all.

There's not a discussion forum on the BBQ-Brethren as vicious as this one, IMHO. Y'all make the N&P forum look awful polite.




Just sayin.

dmprantz
08-01-2012, 12:32 PM
I think we have seen what a team will try to do to get in the Jack the last couple of years. Sorry, its insulting and disrespectful to me. If you have to cheat and lie to get in to a contest that you supposedly" respect, why disrespect it with those kind of actions?

Claiming a contest that isn't a qualifier?
Oh, that's so 2010 and 2011.

For any one who knows the history, the above two quotes were obviously made specifically about Harry Soo. This thread never mentioned him until the above posters made the uncalled for remarks. Read it how you will, pack-pedal all you want, but facts don't lie. I don't expect any one to like any one, but to look for opportunities to publically insult people behind their back is not something that garners respect.

Last year some one left an emoticon in reference to a team who is friends with one of the above posters, and he went ape over it. He said how unfair it was to talk about people behind their backs and then he called the referenced team to tell them about it and get them involved. Kettle, meet the pot.

dmp

Ron_L
08-01-2012, 12:38 PM
Mod Note:

Let's try to keep this discussion civil and on topic or the thread will be scrubbed and closed.

Parts_Guy
08-01-2012, 12:48 PM
Ron_L...this is off topic but...what is a Pickle Monkey? LOL

Ron_L
08-01-2012, 12:52 PM
Google is your friend (or maybe not in this case :-D)

I really just liked the picture :rolleyes: I'm going back to my prostate cancer awareness ribbon once I get back to my computer.

Jorge
08-01-2012, 01:00 PM
Ethics can be loosely defined as actions you would take if no one was looking.
Case in point. Last year we won the Sam's club event in Conroe, Texas. No govenor's proclamation designating it as a state championship. In August we received letters from both the Royal and The Jack congratulating us on the win, with applications to both contests. I sent an e-mail to each, graciously thanking them for the invite, but, informing them that unless the rules had changed, we had not won a qualifier. I received an e-mail from both, thanking me for being honest and wishing me good luck in the future. I would hate to think what the consequences would have been if I hadn't done the right thing.

I do not know the circumstances the OP is alluding to. But, I suggest that you do the right thing, whtever that might be.

Robert




RRRIIIIICCKKKK!!!!!!

You do tend to get to the point don't you? Well said, Robert. Best to you and the crew.

Parts_Guy
08-01-2012, 01:31 PM
Google is your friend (or maybe not in this case :-D)

I really just liked the picture :rolleyes: I'm going back to my prostate cancer awareness ribbon once I get back to my computer.

Google is my friend. I was just being lazy:wink: I found it on Urban Dictionary:)

Tack
08-01-2012, 01:52 PM
I don't post here too much and I only know a few people here. Correct me if I am wrong but if a team was to witness another team cheating at a contest everyone here wuold expect that team to inform the reps of the violation. Then whatever decision is made by the reps is the final word. How is this any different??? If a contest was claimed as a qualifier and then when it was found out not to be the sanctioning body made a decision. You can't have it both ways. If we are to police ourselves it must be in ALL facets of the game not just the ones you want. That is what is known as having Morals.

yelonutz
08-01-2012, 02:03 PM
Oh I have plenty of balls. but to come out and call someone, by name a cheat, using race as issue, embelishing their application is not the Brethren way. So for you to come out and think and point fingers may be off course. Although, I don't disagree with any of that. We aren't supposed to throw fellow Brethren under the bus, as you did. And I will also beg to differ that these are innuendos, as they have appeared on blogs, on radio inrterviews and print interviews. So it's not like I am making anything up.

But to throw race into a INVITATIONAL contest is above a low blow. Why would anyone throw that in a major corporations face? If you cared so much about a contest, why would you jeapordize the future of the contest by writing the CEO, Diversity Officer and Corporation Counsel?

So do I have hatred for Harry? I don't even know who he is. Do I disrepect the actions that he has done over the last 2 years to cure his desires and needs? I certainly do. Why would I want any harm on a contest that means so much to me and my fellow Jack winners? He has disrepected the contest and whether you want to agree or not, that is fair. I know how I feel, how many of my fellow Jack winners feel and a good chunk of folks out on the circuit.

So that is why I do not name names. Will this post get deleted? Probagbly. Should it get deleted? Absolutely not when you are saying me and Alexa (??!!) don't have balls. You called us out, I didn't call anyone out.


Scottie, just to clarify things, my post was directed to Smokin Gnome. My only reference to you and Vince was your well known dislike for Mr. Soo and his actions in the past. I have talked to both you and Vince and would never allude to you guys not having balls enough to voice your opinions. And also, I never even mentioned Alexa, please reread my original post.

NUTZ

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
08-01-2012, 02:17 PM
Scottie, just to clarify things, my post was directed to Smokin Gnome. My only reference to you and Vince was your well known dislike for Mr. Soo and his actions in the past. I have talked to both you and Vince and would never allude to you guys not having balls enough to voice your opinions. And also, I never even mentioned Alexa, please reread my original post.

NUTZ

Mr. Nutz, answer me this...where did I say anything about Harry Soo? I dont know him or you or frankly care about most of this political crud. Heck I wouldnt mind meeting Harry and taking his class. I was refering to a team that was in the Jack then not in the Jack and wether a team or some other factor determined their removal, which Scottie answered.

Scottie
08-01-2012, 02:27 PM
I think they didn't cook brisket Sal and that's why the Jack pulled back their invite. Really sucked for them, but it was probably the right call.

Pappy Q
08-01-2012, 02:32 PM
What is this "Jack" you speak of?:wink:

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
08-01-2012, 03:02 PM
I think they didn't cook brisket Sal and that's why the Jack pulled back their invite. Really sucked for them, but it was probably the right call.

Scottie, Am I remembering correctly when I say this happened after the draw and that the team also had a bung in another state that was removed because of this "invite"? not downing the Jack or anything, it was just something that came to mind last night.

thanks for the replies!

Scottie
08-01-2012, 03:22 PM
That sounds right. After the draw they realized the error. By that time they pulled Pigs bung for another state. Really sucked.

Dan - 3eyzbbq
08-01-2012, 03:29 PM
Correct. The contest in question had chicken, ribs and chefs choice. They were the wv auto and they dumped the nj gc. Following the draw, the jack ruled the wv out and so the team lost their nj bung.

pigmaker23
08-01-2012, 04:09 PM
This ends our regulary scheduled programing, good night all:bow:

sitnfat
08-01-2012, 07:02 PM
I'm gonna go win MIM that way there are no questions to why I am there

Sledneck
08-01-2012, 08:31 PM
Damn I feel rip van winkle. Cantbelieve i missed summer and fall and its january.who won new holland?

Muzzlebrake
08-01-2012, 08:47 PM
I don't think it should ever get to that point that you have to police your chances to get into a qualifier. That is the responsibility of the sanctioning body and the reps, or so you hope. And one has to believe that if you are aware of a situation, that you aren't the only one aware.

Wow. You are an awesome person. That's character and u hope good karma goes with you. Amazing

Paul, I have to disagree with you here. Seeing as this is a Jack qualifying question there really isn't a sanctioning body or reps to enforce anything. That is all determined by the Jack people and in fact crosses over several different sanctioning bodies. All a rep can do is ensure that their respective bodies rules were followed.

As far as the second quote, while yes Robert is an awesome guy I think in this regard he's probably just average. I think that most Brethren would have done the same. I can't see you accepting an invitation you knew was not deserved either.

Bentley
08-01-2012, 08:51 PM
I get so damn sick of shaded accusations and innuendoes from people on this forum. If you wish to accuse a competitor of wrong doing then sack up and name him or her and the contest in question, Scottie and Vince lend no credence to this post since they have hated Harry Soo for years and will never recognize what he is capable of doing. Have some balls, say what you mean or get the hell off the forum.

NUTZ


Bravo!

The Mystical Auroa of the JD...Odds are way to long for it to happen, but if we were some how to get the Draw for the GC in Apex, someone esle will have to go for me, I just dont care!

Jeff_in_KC
08-01-2012, 11:21 PM
Bravo!

The Mystical Auroa of the JD...Odds are way to long for it to happen, but if we were some how to get the Draw for the GC in Apex, someone esle will have to go for me, I just dont care!

Wow. :roll:

Bentley
08-02-2012, 09:01 AM
I am not trying to disrespect the Competition. I got to experience cooking it with a team in 2006. It is a Grand Event. It is in a nice Rural setting, we cooked in a park down by a creek, so picture-perfect setting. I got to go through the Distillery, a great experience & I got to go to Chickamauga. I relish those experience more then the accutal competition.

Maybe do to sites like this and the Internet, I blew it up way to much in my mind, but it is just a contest! Yes there are great teams, with many accomplishments, but they also set strange standards in my opinion.

If you win a certain amount you are in automaticlly, but if not you swing in the wind. It is said that you compete against the very best? Not sure I completely agree with that.

I mean no disrespect to Andy from CA, but last year he had 1 Bung in the draw. Slap yo Daddy had 7 or 8 and All Sauced up from CA had 5 or 6...Guss who won the draw? Is that the Best? To see two teams with a total of 12 - 14 wins not go, and a team with one go?

Like I said, I have been, the Dew is off the Lilly so to speak. I am not a good enough cook and we do not compete enough that I will ever have the opporotunity for it to happen again, but it is not a contest I aspire to return to.

I got into Competitions for just that reason, it is a competition. To me the American Royal is the place to test my Mettle against the Best. I am sure others feel the same way about the Jack...To each their own. Just seems like some want to pump the Jack up to be the El Darado of BBQ Competitions and I just dont share that opinion!