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YokeUp
07-23-2012, 05:41 PM
For an IBCA event, each meat is judged with one number from 1-10. A pre-determined number of entries moves from the initial table to the final table where, between 15-18 entries are judged. Once again, each meat receives 1 number score per entry.

The Question: What is done in the event of a tie? Given 16, or 18 final table entries, and one score, there are bound to be ties. How are they broken? What is the procedure?

If anybody has a link to the official answer from IBCA that would also be appreciated. I was unable to find it. Thank you and God bless you.

Q-Dat
07-24-2012, 11:21 PM
A bump for my Louisiana BBQ Brother!

backyard
07-25-2012, 04:10 AM
It is my understanding:

On pre-lim tables all ties go to the final table. This is why the entries on the final table will vary.

If there are ties on the final table, the judging sheets are shuffled and one from each entry is pulled out. Highest score will determine the place.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
07-25-2012, 08:53 AM
Jeff,

This is just my guess from what I've seen and not an Official IBCA answer and in fact i don't think that information is made public. First I'll state that we are never supposed to know if there was a tie because we aren't supposed to know any scores. However, when there has been a rumor of ties on brisket, it appeared that the brisket ranking was determined on the highest score in ribs then back to chicken if necessary.
However given the nature of the IBCA whole number scoring, it would seem to me that a fair process to break ties would be to start at Brisket and work back to chicken since brisket is the grand champion tie breaker. So starting with brisket final table ties, you would first revert back to the highest scoring on the preliminary table scores and if that doesn't settle it to go to the highest final table Ribs score, then to preliminary ribs score,the highest final table chicken then highest preliminary chicken then flipping a coin, playing rock paper scissors, guessing a number 1-10, drawing straws, having a foot race, playing a hand of poker, seeing who can hold their hand over hot coals or hold their breath the longest, having a staring contest, or any other form of random draw.
It would be nice if IBCA would make the actual scoring and tie-breaking information public, i just have never been able to find it if they did. Their method of not releasing final table scores or preliminary score to cooks is IMHO not a very good method since it doesn't allow cooks to use that data to try and make improvements but it is the way this sanctioning body operates. Since I make a choice to participate in their contests, i am also making a choice to play by their rules. Every year we can submit rule changes at the annual meeting. I've made two suggestions and am 0-2 in having any rule or method officially altered. To have IBCA BOD make a change seemingly would require that a significant majority of members sign a petition or some form of cohesive documentation to show that enough of their members want such a change and i don't know if anyone has ever attempted that. The only other options you have is to vote for new Board members at the next election who may support change.

YokeUp
07-25-2012, 01:03 PM
Clint, I hear ya.

Smoke'n Ice
07-25-2012, 03:37 PM
As backyard said. At least half of the entries on pre-lim tables move to the next level. If there are ties in the top 50% on a pre-lim table then all tied entries move to the next level. On the finals table any tied scores that affect the money/point positions are shuffled and drawn to determine position, otherwise, they just made the finals table. Example, 1st place is high score, 2-6 are tied, 7 is single, 8-15 are tied. Cards 2-6 are shuffled and drawn to determine place 2-6, cards 8-15 are shuffled and drawn to determine 8, 9 & 10, the balance of the tied cards made the finals table plus others that were on the finals table and not involved in the ties.

These procedures date back a long time and are even used in chili competitions. There is nothing anyone is trying to hide, it's just a procedure the most folks know and respect.

As far as ties goes, a team out of the Pacifice Northwest lost two tie coin flips in Las Vegas at a KCBS contest several years ago (one was a perfect 180) and it cost them $12K in total prize money. I don't think they bitched or lobbied about making major changes, they knew the rules going in. Just saying.....

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
07-25-2012, 03:52 PM
I never heard of the shuffle and draw method but don't doubt its use. When i judged in a local IBCA contest, i believe i watched the head judge enter all scores in the a spreadsheet and it generated the top 10 based on whatever parameters(macro/algorithm) it was programmed to use.

I go into every IBCA contest knowing the rules and playing by them. I just think the "it ain't broke, don't fix it" method of resistance to any and all possibility for improvement gets old after a while. Our great country wasn't built on that principle but rather a continuing effort to improve and be better at everything we do. There are lots of things in the world that aren't "broke" but could still benefit from the possibility of improvement.However, it is what it is and it is what we have to work with in our area so i abide by the rules and accept the outcomes for what they are.

bbqczar
07-25-2012, 05:59 PM
Contact Lynn at the IBCA website and she can answer any scoring questions you have.

ATXBBQ
07-25-2012, 09:01 PM
Jeff,

However, when there has been a rumor of ties on brisket, it appeared that the brisket ranking was determined on the highest score in ribs then back to chicken if necessary.

The nature of the double blind scoring they use wouldn't allow them to know the rib or chicken scores from any of the brisket entries.

YokeUp
07-26-2012, 02:44 AM
Contact Lynn at the IBCA website and she can answer any scoring questions you have.
I sent a message off, directly asking the question on what the written and official procedure is to the IBCA.... I got a phone call from the Exec. Director who was not so pleased that I was asking the question. He mentioned that the procedure is detailed in the judge's handbook (not published for membership consumption), but has agreed and committed to send me a copy. He explained the process this way.....(and I am confused)

On the final table, there may be 8-10 judges who have scored the entries. At the head judges discretion, they use a number less than the total of the scoring sheets, so 2 or 3 of the sheets are set aside and not counted in the scoring ??? In the event of a tie, the score sheets that were not used are then used exclusively to break the tie ??

As you would imagine, I was very confused at this explanation and tried to make sure I understood what he was telling me and this is the best understanding I came to, again, this is what was told me over the phone, and the entire procedure is apparently written in the Judge's handbook. If anybody out there has a handbook and would post the actual language, that would help clarify for sure.

backyard
07-26-2012, 04:09 AM
Because the judges come off the street or they sometimes use assistant cooks.....as a last resort. I thought the head judge looks for oddities in the score sheets. If one entry has 1's and 2's and just one 10, the 10 is thrown out. Or if one entry has 9's and 10's and just one 1, the 1 is thrown out. This senario may be legit, but looks suspicious, especially if assistant cooks are used. I am a one person team, so I have no problem w/ this.

I always thought they did this to elimate teams stacking the table and not judging the product fairly. Teams spend and lot of time and money and not getting a fair shake is unacceptable.

I had no idea they use thrown out sheets to break a tie. :twitch::twitch:

I'm looking forward to the actual procedure. Let us know.

YokeUp
07-26-2012, 04:58 AM
I just sent the formal request to the IBCA for a copy of the Judge's handbook. As soon as I have the official language, I will post it here.

Smoke'n Ice
07-26-2012, 07:19 AM
Went back and read my post on the subject and realized I was not very clear on what happened to the drawn cards. I have rewritten it hopefully to make it more clear.

"On the finals table any tied scores that affect the money/point positions are shuffled and drawn to determine position, otherwise, they just made the finals table. Example, 1st place is high score, 2-6 are tied, 7 is single, 8-15 are tied. All cards are shuffled for places 2-6 and a card drawn and the judges score for tied boxes is used to determine place 2-6, if ties still exist, then another card is drawn. This procedure goes on until all ties are resolved for all tied places. If no resolution, then box numbers in question are placed in a hat and drawn for position. Tied boxes 8-15 are only positioned for places 8, 9 &10 because of GC and RGC point scoring."

Q-Dat
07-26-2012, 08:20 AM
This is just my opinion at a glance, but does this whole system seem unnecessarily complicated to anyone else?

QTEX
07-26-2012, 09:09 AM
As a HJ too I will say that absolute fairness to the cooks is always the main concern, everybody spent time and money to be there and all they want is a fair chance of winning. IMO the IBCA system works very very well. Is the system perfect? NO! Is any pther system perfect? NO! Is there room for improvement in all systems of judging? YES! i am a cook too so I want the same thing al the other cooks want from the system of judging. All I will comment for now.

My first post btw. Howdy from TEXAS.

QTEX
07-26-2012, 09:10 AM
Thanks for having me too.

hawg
07-26-2012, 11:06 AM
IMHO, if I were king, here is the way I would handle the tie breaker. Each tray has a number of judge sheets, say seven. You take the seven sheets from tray A and the seven from tray B. Now look at each set of scores. Tray A has two judges that score it a 10. Tray B also has two judges that score it a 10. Go to the next highest socre. Tray A has two judges score it a 9, but Tray B has only one judge that scores it a 9. Tray A wins with the greater number of highest scores. If they are tied exactly on all scores on both seven sheets, then and only then do you have a random drawing.

I believe this method would keep with the intent of using "the highest score" to determine winners and losers.

Comments?

QTEX
07-26-2012, 12:19 PM
HAWG, I lie the way you think.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
07-26-2012, 12:52 PM
Backyard,

"Because the judges come off the street or they sometimes use assistant cooks.....as a last resort. I thought the head judge looks for oddities in the score sheets. If one entry has 1's and 2's and just one 10, the 10 is thrown out. Or if one entry has 9's and 10's and just one 1, the 1 is thrown out. This senario may be legit, but looks suspicious, especially if assistant cooks are used. I am a one person team, so I have no problem w/ this.

I always thought they did this to elimate teams stacking the table and not judging the product fairly. Teams spend and lot of time and money and not getting a fair shake is unacceptable."

If you read the IBCA rules, there is technically no rule against staffing preliminary tables with Teammates, family and friends. That seems to be perfectly acceptable to IBCA as an organization. The only mention of teammates judging is under promoter obligations(not the rules section) which states that teammates can't judge FINAL table. As written that would seemingly allow a team to get every family member and friend they know to sign up for final table and it would be technically legal under the rules. The only mechanism in place against stacking a table is that Head Judges are supposed to ask if final table judges have any affiliation to a particpating team, such as family, teammate etc...and not let them judge. However, this is entirely at the discretion of the head judges to maintain the fairness and integrity of the judging process as there are no rules against it. In my opinion, no Head Judge would want or allow such indiscretion to occur. Head Judges really sacrifice a lot of time and effort to support IBCA contests with little to no benefit to them. Would I like to see rules written that could be enforced, sure! Do i trust in the Head Judges to officiate a fair contest, absolutely!!!

YokeUp
07-26-2012, 02:13 PM
My email this morning to formally request a copy of the Judge’s handbook that was discussed with Waldo Strein on the phone yesterday….
--------
Jeff Petkevicius
4:56 AM (9 hours ago)
to info

As a fully paid member in good standing, I am officially requesting a hard copy, or emailed copy, of the entire IBCA Judge's handbook. I will pay all processing and shipping costs, please advise me of when I can expect to receive it and the associated charges.

IBCA member # 2671
---------
Lynn Shivers – President IBCA
7:36 AM (6 hours ago)
to lgbbq, Andy, Geralyn, me

Jeff, you are a paid member but because of your actions last week you are not in good standings.

If you feel that we are a second class organization - I don't understand why you are so interested in our judging system -- what alternative motive do you have in obtaining this information.

It was explained to you yesterday by Waldo Strein, Executive Director, that these aren't rules but guidelines for the IBCA Rep on overseeing the judging at events.

IBCA doesn't have a Judge's handbook.

Also, in your effort to get IBCA to change to the KCBS rules and format it is going to cost the Promoters more money (less prize money) or we would be faced with a lawsuit from the KCBS for using the format.

If you would further like to discuss this matter, please call Waldo or myself (I will be
unavailable today).

Lynn Shivers
-------------
Jeff Petkevicius
10:00 AM (4 hours ago)
to Lynn


What specific actions changed my status to not be in good standing?
--------
Lynn Shivers – President IBCA
10:05 AM (4 hours ago)
to me, lgbbq


all of the negative comments that you made against IBCA –
-----------
Jeff Petkevicius
12:06 PM (2 hours ago)
to Lynn


Specifically, those comments were what?
--------
No answer…. If one comes in, I will post it… draw your own conclusions.

YokeUp
07-28-2012, 04:31 AM
No response, or answer to the question I asked for specifics. I'm not surprized, in the heated discussion, resulting from my suggestions to improve the IBCA process to better prepare cooks for World Championships, I never once leveled any personal attacks. The IBCA officials did. When Lynn Shivers was challenged directly by my wife to come forward with specifics on how I had "slandered" the organization and promoters...the response was the same as to the emails you see above.... silence. Why? because there are none.

I remain stunned, that the BBQ world that supports the IBCA, does so with complete blindness. The organization's primary responsiblity is to "officiate" the CONTEST. The most important part of officiating, is Judging... and in the words of the President of the IBCA...they HAVE NO OFFICIAL JUDGE'S HANDBOOK! This is the height of organizational irresponsibility and it leaves the IBCA wide open to charges of corruption, deceit, manipulation and fraud. In the IBCA, the contest is judged at the whim of the local head judge, where he, or she, picks how to judge, how to score, how to break ties etc.... and who's to say, if the results don't come out the way they like, they just change the rules...Nothing in the IBCA governs the judging process! AND NONE OF THE RESULTS ARE PUBLISHED FOR INSPECTION - THEY ARE HELD SECRET BY THE IBCA.

For me, because I "asked" the questions and made the suggestions, I have been moved from good standing in the organization to NOT good standing.... I think it's their way of kicking me out. I'm fine with that. I have pulled out of the 4 remaining IBCA competitions I had paid for this year, including Ponchatoula which is literally 2 blocks from my house. It breaks my heart to do so, as I love many of the cooks who participate. I cannot, however, support, or be associated with an organization that has complete disregard for fairness, openness and responsible behavior.

My Mission in BBQ is to share the love of Jesus Christ to all. Being a Christian also means standing up for the truth, no matter how un-comfortable. Having brought to light, the very dark side of the IBCA, it was a fight, I didn't pick, or start. It is one, however, that I will remain firm in my convictions, and share that truth to all interested parties. My BBQ ministry is moving to legitimate BBQ sanctioned events where truth, honesty and openness is clearly a priority...as it should be. God bless you all and I'm here to answer any questions you have.

Candy Sue
07-28-2012, 10:52 AM
Jeff, when you posted this statement on Facebook:

If you consider yourself a professional BBQ competitor and want to compete on the highest level, you need to participate, and perfect your BBQ in KCBS, not the IBCA. The IBCA is not recognized as a Nationally credible sactioning body by the National BBQ Rankings because of the lack of scoring results.

How could you not consider the consequences when you posted this? It's a slap in the face of IBCA! I don't know why the National BBQ Rankings should be the determining factor to rate a "credible sanctioning body" anyway. It sure doesn't relate to KCBS ToY standings. Does that mean that KCBS isn't credible? I don't think so. National BBQ Rankings is a cool site. It really has limited application for specific sanctioning ranking systems.

I cook at BBQ contests for many reasons. Mostly because I enjoy the comraderie of the other people who participate, whether organizers, judges, officials and/or other teams.

I always cook at least a couple IBCA contests a year. I think it does me good to try a different "system." Besides, look at some of the best KCBS cooks. They came out of a Texas competition system. You want to know why? These cooks have to learn how to cook so the meat is good cold, because generally that box is stone cold by the time it hits the finals table. If your product is good cold, it'll be stellar when warm!

Jeff, I'm sorry you're in this situation, but you earned it.

YokeUp
07-28-2012, 12:09 PM
The truth is the truth Candy and that "slap" in the face is well deserved. The IBCA is a BBQ sanctioning organization that has no formal judging guidelines, no written perameters and subject the the preference of local IBCA officials... and then, the results are hidden.... and then, when you ask questions, they go on the personal attack mode. I've been targeting the judging system and the reporting of results.... not individuals, and for asking the questions, and making positive suggestions, I have been attacked... frankly, I welcome it. I stand on the truth and I always look to scripture for a guideline for what I do. I can find many, many examples in the bible of everything that has gone on here and I will stand firm on what I've done and will continue to do. There is a reason that there are whistleblower laws in this county, unfortunately, they don't apply to BBQ and who would have ever thought it was needed. That's the sadest part of this whole scenario... coverup, refusal to disclose information, personal attacks... doesn't sound family friendly to me. I hope God helps you see the truth here for what it is. God bless ya.

Jeff, when you posted this statement on Facebook:

If you consider yourself a professional BBQ competitor and want to compete on the highest level, you need to participate, and perfect your BBQ in KCBS, not the IBCA. The IBCA is not recognized as a Nationally credible sactioning body by the National BBQ Rankings because of the lack of scoring results.

How could you not consider the consequences when you posted this? It's a slap in the face of IBCA! I don't know why the National BBQ Rankings should be the determining factor to rate a "credible sanctioning body" anyway. It sure doesn't relate to KCBS ToY standings. Does that mean that KCBS isn't credible? I don't think so. National BBQ Rankings is a cool site. It really has limited application for specific sanctioning ranking systems.

I cook at BBQ contests for many reasons. Mostly because I enjoy the comraderie of the other people who participate, whether organizers, judges, officials and/or other teams.

I always cook at least a couple IBCA contests a year. I think it does me good to try a different "system." Besides, look at some of the best KCBS cooks. They came out of a Texas competition system. You want to know why? These cooks have to learn how to cook so the meat is good cold, because generally that box is stone cold by the time it hits the finals table. If your product is good cold, it'll be stellar when warm!

Jeff, I'm sorry you're in this situation, but you earned it.

RangerJ
07-28-2012, 04:22 PM
While I find IBCA and the lack of data provided a bit frustrating at times, go cook an unsanctioned comp sometime and let me know how you feel about the hundred or so events IBCA puts on annually after that.

Weird though, the cooks who win regular in Texas / IBCA do pretty well on the KCBS circuit as well and I don't resemble either of those remarks. Which says perhaps I've over estimated the need for data or I need to learn to cook better.

Though I don't disagree with many of your comments, I find the comparison to the whistle blower law to be a bit of stretch as this remains, for about 97.5% of us, a hobby.

Good luck to you, Brother. KCBS in Bedford, Texas over Labor Day if your looking to travel.

YokeUp
07-28-2012, 05:05 PM
I appreciate the feedback. From the start of all this, I have been focused on that portion of cooks who take the competition side very seriously. Sure, we love to have fun cooking with buddies, but we also have that strong competitive gene that drives us to reach the top of our sport. The World Champion level competitions (American Royal and Jack) are the showcase for our sports top competitors. I believe that the IBCA could be a fantastic training ground for success on a World champion stage and one day, I hope it is. For now, there are Administrative issues that are holding it back, and hopefully, they see the light and move forward.

I'd love to cook in Bedford, but Dallas is outside my driving range... Best of luck to you and God bless ya.


While I find IBCA and the lack of data provided a bit frustrating at times, go cook an unsanctioned comp sometime and let me know how you feel about the hundred or so events IBCA puts on annually after that.

Weird though, the cooks who win regular in Texas / IBCA do pretty well on the KCBS circuit as well and I don't resemble either of those remarks. Which says perhaps I've over estimated the need for data or I need to learn to cook better.

Though I don't disagree with many of your comments, I find the comparison to the whistle blower law to be a bit of stretch as this remains, for about 97.5% of us, a hobby.

Good luck to you, Brother. KCBS in Bedford, Texas over Labor Day if your looking to travel.

YokeUp
07-28-2012, 06:57 PM
Ranger posted that he thought the IBCA cooks did well when they went up to the KCBS events..... I wondered about that and did some more research. Again, I'm talking to the cooks who want to be the BEST in BBQ, and that means performing at a World Class level. Last year's top 25 IBCA teams, the very BEST of the IBCA had a total of 3 teams go to the Jack and the American Royal.... at the Jack, the IBCA top 25 representatives came in - 12th, 63rd and 84th. At the American Royal, the top 25 IBCA teams came in 123rd, 57th and 118th. Now AGAIN, I'm not talking to those people who love to party, have a good time, and tailgate type event cookers, but I'm talking to the Professionals who seek the highest level in the World.... The analysis is simple... the IBCA focused cooking teams do NOT do well on the big stage and I believe with a different format, those results at the top competitions and IBCA focused teams would improve....

Jorge
07-28-2012, 08:24 PM
Ranger posted that he thought the IBCA cooks did well when they went up to the KCBS events..... I wondered about that and did some more research. Again, I'm talking to the cooks who want to be the BEST in BBQ, and that means performing at a World Class level. Last year's top 25 IBCA teams, the very BEST of the IBCA had a total of 3 teams go to the Jack and the American Royal.... at the Jack, the IBCA top 25 representatives came in - 12th, 63rd and 84th. At the American Royal, the top 25 IBCA teams came in 123rd, 57th and 118th. Now AGAIN, I'm not talking to those people who love to party, have a good time, and tailgate type event cookers, but I'm talking to the Professionals who seek the highest level in the World.... The analysis is simple... the IBCA focused cooking teams do NOT do well on the big stage and I believe with a different format, those results at the top competitions and IBCA focused teams would improve....

I disagree. IBCA is no more responsible for those results, than they are when teams have success outside of IBCA. A cook or team will earn the success they deserve. When they don't the solution is to cook better. Period.

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 03:04 AM
I disagree. IBCA is no more responsible for those results, than they are when teams have success outside of IBCA. A cook or team will earn the success they deserve. When they don't the solution is to cook better. Period.

The IBCA is not responsible, but they miss great opportunities to help cooks progress to, and perform well on the World class stage. The key word is "better"... what is "better" when you don't know where you are. If you were zero-ing in a scope for a new rifle and you couldn't see where the bullet hit, how would you know what adjustments to make? You wouldn't. KCBS is the standard, is the bulls-eye for World Class competitions and the more time you spend cooking to reach that standard, the more accurate and the "better" you will become, but you MUST have FEEDBACK, or you are shooting in the dark, wasting time and lots of Money!

Thanks for your feedback and God bless you

Jorge
07-29-2012, 09:13 AM
The IBCA is not responsible, but they miss great opportunities to help cooks progress to, and perform well on the World class stage. The key word is "better"... what is "better" when you don't know where you are. If you were zero-ing in a scope for a new rifle and you couldn't see where the bullet hit, how would you know what adjustments to make? You wouldn't. KCBS is the standard, is the bulls-eye for World Class competitions and the more time you spend cooking to reach that standard, the more accurate and the "better" you will become, but you MUST have FEEDBACK, or you are shooting in the dark, wasting time and lots of Money!

Thanks for your feedback and God bless you

IBCA already gives you the opportunity to taste entries that made it to the final table. I'd suggest that there is already quite a bit of feedback.

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 10:34 AM
IBCA already gives you the opportunity to taste entries that made it to the final table. I'd suggest that there is already quite a bit of feedback.

if that's all you want... you'll always be high and to the right and the farther the shot, the more you'll be off....

Dustaway
07-29-2012, 11:07 AM
So what does the scores of kcbs tell you on a world class stage?

Thanks for the feedback and god bless you.

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 11:12 AM
So what does the scores of kcbs tell you on a world class stage?

Thanks for the feedback and god bless you.

at least it's some direction, and when you compete with some of the top teams in the country, you can see where you stack up against them. If you're not interested in improving, you won't need to worry about feedback. God bless ya.

hawg
07-29-2012, 11:16 AM
Pardon my interruption. Others may have different information than me, but I was told personally by Ms. Shivers that the cookers DO NOT want their turn-in's made available to ANYONE after the judging and that many of the cookers want their turn-in trays returned after the judging, so that they DO NOT fall into the competition's hands. Nor do I see anything in the IBCA rules that call for the final table turn-ins to be made available to anyone.

Not trying to flame anyone, just my personal knowledge and observation.

Jorge
07-29-2012, 11:23 AM
Pardon my interruption. Others may have different information than me, but I was told personally by Ms. Shivers that the cookers DO NOT want their turn-in's made available to ANYONE after the judging and that many of the cookers want their turn-in trays returned after the judging, so that they DO NOT fall into the competition's hands. Nor do I see anything in the IBCA rules that call for the final table turn-ins to be made available to anyone.

Not trying to flame anyone, just my personal knowledge and observation.

If that's the case, it is a change that I wasn't aware of. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 11:29 AM
Pardon my interruption. Others may have different information than me, but I was told personally by Ms. Shivers that the cookers DO NOT want their turn-in's made available to ANYONE after the judging and that many of the cookers want their turn-in trays returned after the judging, so that they DO NOT fall into the competition's hands. Nor do I see anything in the IBCA rules that call for the final table turn-ins to be made available to anyone.

Not trying to flame anyone, just my personal knowledge and observation.

I never heard of any of this and was never told in the 20+ IBCA events I cooked in that it was an option for me to get my box back.. another example of irresponsible administration... Why is this even a topic of discussion? These issues and judging guidelines should be documented and distributed to all involved.... it's nothing but a free-for-all.

Dustaway
07-29-2012, 11:43 AM
@yokeup In kcbs a score of 889877 in tenderness tells me what?

Thanks for the feedback and god bless

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 11:58 AM
@yokeup In kcbs a score of 889877 in tenderness tells me what?

Thanks for the feedback and god bless

That's up to you to decide, and respond to however you want. You cooked it, you tasted it, and now you have the feedback. Toss it if you don't like it, or it isn't adding any value to you as a competitior... but it's YOUR CHOICE...you have the information.

thillin
07-29-2012, 12:53 PM
Pardon my interruption. Others may have different information than me, but I was told personally by Ms. Shivers that the cookers DO NOT want their turn-in's made available to ANYONE after the judging and that many of the cookers want their turn-in trays returned after the judging, so that they DO NOT fall into the competition's hands. Nor do I see anything in the IBCA rules that call for the final table turn-ins to be made available to anyone.

Not trying to flame anyone, just my personal knowledge and observation.

They may want their boxes returned, but they would have to pick it up off the table after awards. I've tasted top 3 entries at most cooks I've done the past few years. Do we want people to know the flavor profile we used to win? Probably not, but nothing you can do except pick up the box after awards and leave with it.

(this is not directed towards anyone, just a general statement.)

Score feedback doesn't seem what it is cracked up to be. You know if your tenderness is off or spot on. You know if your turn in looks sloppy or not. That leaves taste, which is up to the few judges that taste your food that day. If I don't hit top 10, I could care less if it's final table or DAL. And I don't see how feedback could help a IBCA cook in the AR or Jack. Cook your best and if it's not good enough, ask for some help, work the judge tent or take a class.

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 01:21 PM
They may want their boxes returned, but they would have to pick it up off the table after awards. I've tasted top 3 entries at most cooks I've done the past few years. Do we want people to know the flavor profile we used to win? Probably not, but nothing you can do except pick up the box after awards and leave with it.

(this is not directed towards anyone, just a general statement.)

Score feedback doesn't seem what it is cracked up to be. You know if your tenderness is off or spot on. You know if your turn in looks sloppy or not. That leaves taste, which is up to the few judges that taste your food that day. If I don't hit top 10, I could care less if it's final table or DAL. And I don't see how feedback could help a IBCA cook in the AR or Jack. Cook your best and if it's not good enough, ask for some help, work the judge tent or take a class.
You may, or may not find any value in your scores, but it should be your decision on how you use it, and the scores should be given to you. What is the value in NOT giving the scores to the participants? How does NOT showing the teams, how they were judged, just leaving it up to them to guess...good for the sport? You could argue that it is good for the recreational participants... so they aren't offended, or maybee they mis-interpret the results... but for the cooks who are serious? Tell me of another Sport where you are judged, but not shown the scores? Integrity is a very valuable thing and information transparancy is where it starts with the IBCA..KCBS has no issue with it, because they understand why it's important. IBCA will remain a minor league player until they see the error of their ways, repent and do the right thing by the cooking teams.

Dustaway
07-29-2012, 01:34 PM
Reads like you just want to chew on a rawhide bone against ibca.:blah::blah::blah:

Smoke'n Ice
07-29-2012, 01:44 PM
I think Dustaway's tag line ""Never let your persistence and passion turn into stubbornness and ignorance." Anthony J. D'Angelo" says it all about this thread. Just saying.........

ATXBBQ
07-29-2012, 01:45 PM
I've been competing in texas (all different sanctioning bodies) and I've never been given my scores. Doesn't bother me. What does bother me is having to put salad in my box, I think it's ridiculous. So you know what I do? I just don't cook KCBS comps, case closed. Sounds like you should just avoid IBCA.

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 01:58 PM
I'm completely out of IBCA. If you take the time to read all the input, the picture is very clear and valuable for those that have legitimate concerns. Some of the most interesting input I've received from this thread, has come around the back. For some reason, people don't want their experiences with the IBCA to be public...fears of retribuition...

God sees it all. Truth is Truth.

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 02:08 PM
I think Dustaway's tag line ""Never let your persistence and passion turn into stubbornness and ignorance." Anthony J. D'Angelo" says it all about this thread. Just saying.........

I got a better one for ya...
Jam 4:17 NKJV - Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do [it], to him it is sin.

reason for this thread.... Just saying

thillin
07-29-2012, 03:00 PM
Looks like no reason to beat a dead horse then if you are out on IBCA. Hope you don't find issues you dont like with KCBS, cause the field will start to narrow.

YokeUp
07-29-2012, 03:17 PM
Looks like no reason to beat a dead horse then if you are out on IBCA. Hope you don't find issues you dont like with KCBS, cause the field will start to narrow.
I've cooked a good number of KCBS events as well, and I appreciate the First Class organization that they are. I look forward to the IBCA becoming one as well and offering cooking teams more opportunities to hone their Sport to World Class Standards... I have hope, I know it can happen, and with good people working behind the scenes, it will happen for the good of the sport overall.

YokeUp
07-31-2012, 03:40 AM
hey, when Everything is said and done, for every conversation and issue... What is boils down to is..... What is important, What matters..... Here's what matters:

The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death(Romans 8:2).Being set free of something, by definition, means you must be in bondage to something. That “something” is sin and death. We are by nature under God’s Wrath and will face eternal punishment in hell if we remain in our sin, not because God is bad, but because God is a Holy and Righteous Judge that cannot let sin go unpunished.
To ignore or deny this Truth does not change the reality of it, however, if we feel the weight of conviction over our sin we can be redeemed. God loves us so much that He sent His Son to bear the sin of the world on His Cross. At the Cross of Jesus you will find forgiveness and cleansing of your sin, you will be washed clean in the Blood of Jesus Christ. You will be set free from the bondage of sin and death IF you will repent (turn from your sin) and put your faith in Him alone to save you.
When you do this you become born-again (John 3:3) and God gives you a new heart(Ezekiel 36:26), a heart to turn from wickedness and live for righteousness. When this happens, by His Grace and Mercy, He will give us Eternal Life instead of eternal death(1John 5).

It's your decision. Decisions have consequences. Chose wisely. Be honest with yourself. Drop your pride. Forget about what this world will say. Become a Jesus Freak... :) we really do have a lot of fun. God bless ya.