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stevekrebs
07-15-2012, 10:06 AM
Is there any other sauce being used besides BH....?

Rich Parker
07-15-2012, 10:11 AM
Sbr.

early mornin' smokin'
07-15-2012, 10:14 AM
head country, purple pork masters, arbys, mcd's

stevekrebs
07-15-2012, 10:20 AM
how many packets of arby's sauce does it take?

Tim H
07-15-2012, 10:22 AM
I judged the Kettering OH, contest yesterday and BH was on each of the 4 meats that I judged. I had 4 boxes at my table for each meat and BH was on about 1/3+ of all of the meats presented to me. I like BH, but frankly was getting tired of it. I actually began to look forward to judging meats that were not slathered with it. I knew that I would get BH, but I was surprised just how prevalent it was. When judging on Taste, of course I considered how the elements of rub/seasoning, smoke, and sauce worked in harmony to impact the flavor of the meat and did not allow any personal feelings relating to BH impact my scoring.

BTW As a competitive cook I too am "guilty" of relying on BH.:-P

indianagriller
07-15-2012, 10:51 AM
I cooked at Kettering yesterday, and I can tell you that 2/3 of our calls did not contain BH including the 1st place pork and 2nd place chicken...Ribs, we do use a slight amount of BH blended with other sauces. Ohio sure did love our food yesterday... except our brisket... not sure what happened there same recipe took 2nd place less than a month ago

Butt Rubb'n BBQ
07-15-2012, 10:52 AM
What in the heck is BH?

indianagriller
07-15-2012, 10:55 AM
Blues Hog

stevekrebs
07-15-2012, 10:56 AM
BigJT...did you just use Draper's on the brisket? We got a comment card that is was too peppery...

indianagriller
07-15-2012, 11:08 AM
No sauce on brisket... but that was probably my problem LOL

Butt Rubb'n BBQ
07-15-2012, 11:08 AM
Ok I just have to say it. Why in the world would you enter in a comp and use a store bought sauce on your food. If you are using store bought sauces and rubs then you can not call it your own. In my opinion a true pit master would come up with his own recipes. Like the judge said above he gets tired of tasting the same old sauce. Half the fun to cooking is the recipe development process. Turn the corner and be a pioneer. Happy smoking!

indianagriller
07-15-2012, 11:16 AM
Ok I just have to say it. Why in the world would you enter in a comp and use a store bought sauce on your food. If you are using store bought sauces and rubs then you can not call it your own. In my opinion a true pit master would come up with his own recipes. Like the judge said above he gets tired of tasting the same old sauce. Half the fun to cooking is the recipe development process. Turn the corner and be a pioneer. Happy smoking!

While i agree with your statement, im not spending $700 a weekend to be a pioneer, i do that in my off time. I use both store bought and home made injections, rubs, and sauces. Why try to reinvent the wheel with a rub or sauce when there are soooo many that have tried and true rubs. I use 2-4 combos of different rubs and sauces for different catagories. I cook these recipes at least once a week in the summer, just because a store bought sauce is used doesnt mean that i havent used it as a base for my own.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
07-15-2012, 11:17 AM
Ok I just have to say it. Why in the world would you enter in a comp and use a store bought sauce on your food. If you are using store bought sauces and rubs then you can not call it your own. In my opinion a true pit master would come up with his own recipes. Like the judge said above he gets tired of tasting the same old sauce. Half the fun to cooking is the recipe development process. Turn the corner and be a pioneer. Happy smoking!

Why try and reinvent the wheel?

rcorun
07-15-2012, 11:55 AM
There is a great sauce out called
Wades Favorite Apple Chipotle and
Wades Favorite Orange and Spice

stevekrebs
07-15-2012, 12:02 PM
Agreed. I too love to create and play around with my own recipes. I love my strawberry tewuilla bbq sauce, but i also don't want to spend an ass ton of money at a comp and not get rewarded! It took me awhile to realize that every team is using the same ingredients in some sort...I too agree, why and reinvent the wheel when it is already out there.

big brother smoke
07-15-2012, 12:30 PM
Ok I just have to say it. Why in the world would you enter in a comp and use a store bought sauce on your food. If you are using store bought sauces and rubs then you can not call it your own. In my opinion a true pit master would come up with his own recipes. Like the judge said above he gets tired of tasting the same old sauce. Half the fun to cooking is the recipe development process. Turn the corner and be a pioneer. Happy smoking!


You are entitled to your opinion of course, but do you grow your own animals, vegetation, etc and use them in comps?:becky:

Pappy Q
07-15-2012, 02:47 PM
Ok I just have to say it. Why in the world would you enter in a comp and use a store bought sauce on your food. If you are using store bought sauces and rubs then you can not call it your own. In my opinion a true pit master would come up with his own recipes. Like the judge said above he gets tired of tasting the same old sauce. Half the fun to cooking is the recipe development process. Turn the corner and be a pioneer. Happy smoking!

I assume you don't compete?

Big Mike
07-15-2012, 03:22 PM
I judged the Kettering OH, contest yesterday and BH was on each of the 4 meats that I judged. I had 4 boxes at my table for each meat and BH was on about 1/3+ of all of the meats presented to me. I like BH, but frankly was getting tired of it. I actually began to look forward to judging meats that were not slathered with it. I knew that I would get BH, but I was surprised just how prevalent it was. When judging on Taste, of course I considered how the elements of rub/seasoning, smoke, and sauce worked in harmony to impact the flavor of the meat and did not allow any personal feelings relating to BH impact my scoring.

BTW As a competitive cook I too am "guilty" of relying on BH.:-P

You always here that judges are getting tired of BH and I am sure some such as yourself are. Unfortunately, it seems everytime you try to go down a different road, you get whacked. So, you end up backing up and going back down the same road.

I may be way off base, but I just do not think most judges around here are willing to accept something that is too different than the norm. The norm being sweet (BH).

djqualls
07-15-2012, 03:31 PM
Ok I just have to say it. Why in the world would you enter in a comp and use a store bought sauce on your food. If you are using store bought sauces and rubs then you can not call it your own. In my opinion a true pit master would come up with his own recipes. Like the judge said above he gets tired of tasting the same old sauce. Half the fun to cooking is the recipe development process. Turn the corner and be a pioneer. Happy smoking!


You probably need to drop at least half a million and raise your own meats with that mentality.

Meat Man
07-15-2012, 03:36 PM
We tried to reinvent the wheel at ACM Throwdown in Vegas. Big mistake, we finished 63rd out of 127 teams. I think a lot of cooks, including us use BH or SBR as a base and modify it to some degree.

Butt Rubb'n BBQ
07-15-2012, 03:39 PM
You assume wrong. I do compete and I do win and I don't use store bought sauces or rubs and it doesnt cost 700 dollars to make. I would be willing to bet I could go through your frig and pantry and pull off a wining sauce. These big name teams make their own and then make a ton of money selling basic ingredients to other lower level teams. When I found out majority teams on the pro circuit were useing store bought sauces it was a big let down for me and I lost a lot of respect for those guys as well. Hey this is just my opinion and we all know how opinions are. All it akes is a little ketchup, chili sauce, corn syrup and about three other ingredients and you got yourself a sauce. Happy smoking!

indianagriller
07-15-2012, 04:19 PM
You assume wrong. I do compete and I do win and I don't use store bought sauces or rubs and it doesnt cost 700 dollars to make. I would be willing to bet I could go through your frig and pantry and pull off a wining sauce. These big name teams make their own and then make a ton of money selling basic ingredients to other lower level teams. When I found out majority teams on the pro circuit were useing store bought sauces it was a big let down for me and I lost a lot of respect for those guys as well. Hey this is just my opinion and we all know how opinions are. All it akes is a little ketchup, chili sauce, corn syrup and about three other ingredients and you got yourself a sauce. Happy smoking!

Not saying it cost $700 to make a sauce and a rub for a comp... My WHOLE comp weekend involves approximately $700 from thursday to saturday, When you say you "win" what does that mean? I make my own brisket and pork rub, but i do not use them in competitions because it is not what the judges are used to, and probably wouldnt do well. I also have sponsors, who i represent each and every weekend i compete, btw Thank you to Simply Marvelous, Drapers BBQ, and Mojobricks!

ssbbqguy
07-15-2012, 04:37 PM
One just has to look for other additives to mix with BH original. Bill himself used a mix of Tenn. Red and Original with great success. Same with Head Country and KC Masterpiece which all ran their course with many types of additives or mixing ingredients. It's not that hard to be individual when you mix your mixes. Steve.

stevekrebs
07-15-2012, 04:44 PM
Not saying it cost $700 to make a sauce and a rub for a comp... My WHOLE comp weekend involves approximately $700 from thursday to saturday, When you say you "win" what does that mean? I make my own brisket and pork rub, but i do not use them in competitions because it is not what the judges are used to, and probably wouldnt do well. I also have sponsors, who i represent each and every weekend i compete, btw Thank you to Simply Marvelous, Drapers BBQ, and Mojobricks!


Exactly. This is a business in it's own and for you to give your opinion as to what you like and lexpect is far from what is out there. I love bbq'n for family and friends and i love the comp aspect as well. What I do on my own is far different than what I would do at a comp...so keep your opinion to yourself and Happy smoking! I was just looking for results within the the whole sauce spectrum, not someone who wants us to believe that they are the next big thing in BBq, cause if you are..send me the sauce!

Pappy Q
07-15-2012, 05:25 PM
You assume wrong. I do compete and I do win and I don't use store bought sauces or rubs and it doesnt cost 700 dollars to make. I would be willing to bet I could go through your frig and pantry and pull off a wining sauce. These big name teams make their own and then make a ton of money selling basic ingredients to other lower level teams. When I found out majority teams on the pro circuit were useing store bought sauces it was a big let down for me and I lost a lot of respect for those guys as well. Hey this is just my opinion and we all know how opinions are. All it akes is a little ketchup, chili sauce, corn syrup and about three other ingredients and you got yourself a sauce. Happy smoking!

Great for you and congratulations. Not everyone has your culinary abilities so they do the best they can with their knowledge. By the way, what is your Team name? I'd love to look up those past wins.

Bigmista
07-15-2012, 05:40 PM
If I buy sauce at the store and mix it with other stuff, it is no longer store bought sauce. It is an ingredient in my recipe. Who the hell has time to make ketchup or Worcestershire sauce?

Contracted Cookers
07-15-2012, 09:04 PM
You assume wrong. I do compete and I do win and I don't use store bought sauces or rubs and it doesnt cost 700 dollars to make. I would be willing to bet I could go through your frig and pantry and pull off a wining sauce. These big name teams make their own and then make a ton of money selling basic ingredients to other lower level teams. When I found out majority teams on the pro circuit were useing store bought sauces it was a big let down for me and I lost a lot of respect for those guys as well. Hey this is just my opinion and we all know how opinions are. All it akes is a little ketchup, chili sauce, corn syrup and about three other ingredients and you got yourself a sauce. Happy smoking!
and what is your team name

porkingINpublic
07-15-2012, 09:19 PM
I believe mr Johnny Trigg would be laughing all the way to the bank to cash his $50,000 check.... He doesn't make his own sauces. He admitted it...

But he's no good at BBQ or anything...:roll:

Butt Rubb'n BBQ
07-15-2012, 09:32 PM
Guess you have a point there. It's just disappointing to me.

AZScott
07-15-2012, 11:16 PM
Many people don't make their own sauces from scratch for a variety of reasons. Comps take a lot of time to prep for and teams like mine take commercial sauces and then add specific ingredients to achieve the profile we want. It takes less time and the consistency in taste and viscosity is greatly improved over making our own from scratch. I will also add that Blues Hog is a good sauce but we don't use it and we also know quite a few top teams that choose not to.

early mornin' smokin'
07-16-2012, 08:23 AM
I use commercial sauces as a base to my custom comp blends. It changes every comp. To me, there's no sense in being perfectly consistent every time, because the judges are never consistent. I won't blues hog the crap out of my stuff, but 9 times out of 10, the sauce that tastes the best and wins something has at least a little bit of it in there.

Tim H
07-16-2012, 05:45 PM
I cooked at Kettering yesterday, and I can tell you that 2/3 of our calls did not contain BH including the 1st place pork and 2nd place chicken...Ribs, we do use a slight amount of BH blended with other sauces. Ohio sure did love our food yesterday... except our brisket... not sure what happened there same recipe took 2nd place less than a month ago
Congrats on last weekend. The quality of the meat that I judged was very good on Saturday (except for the Pork). I am mainly a Cook as opposed to a Judge. Kettering was my first Judging contest in about 2 years. We took first in Pork last year w/o a drop of BH on it. i was just taking a break from the money pit that Comp BBQ is and wanted to get a refesher on what Teams are turning in these days. Was surprised to see how prevalent BH was... especially on Chick and Brisket.

Willie's Smokehouse
07-16-2012, 06:24 PM
DBQ works for us!!

Smokin Mike
07-16-2012, 08:14 PM
DBQ works for us!!

I'm always looking for a new sauce to try, whats DBQ?

TIA,

Mike

indianagriller
07-16-2012, 08:37 PM
Drapers Bbq

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

Chipper
07-17-2012, 06:55 AM
We make our own and occasionally do well with it. Starting to do our rubs as well.

Hot Wachulas
07-17-2012, 09:07 AM
I make my own sauces and rubs. I have tried other brands of sauces and rubs and take the flavors I like from them to make or modify my own. I recently tried a rub that had more black pepper in it that mine. I liked how it tasted so I made a version of my rub with more black pepper. The same goes for the sauces. If another sauce glazes better than yours add some corn syrup, honey or jelly to it. The reason certain sauces win more than others is simple math. More teams are using them. Its like the lottery. 65% of all winning tickets are quick picks. Why? because 65% of all tickets sold are quick picks. JMO

CBQ
07-17-2012, 09:43 AM
You probably need to drop at least half a million and raise your own meats with that mentality.

It's also not really store bought. These are specialized products designed for competition BBQ. You don't see Blues Hog, Plowboys, Head Country, Dizzy Pig, etc. at the supermarket.

We make some of our rubs and sauces, and we also use commercial stuff. Teams use what wins. You could also say the same thing about injections. "Fab, Butchers, or Kosmos again?!!!"

Smokin Mike
07-17-2012, 12:19 PM
Drapers Bbq

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks

Parts_Guy
07-17-2012, 12:38 PM
We make our own rubs and injections. We use Blues Hogs and Head Country...and we mix some other things in there as well:)

Pack-A-Smokes
07-17-2012, 02:12 PM
We use BH in a mixture for one meat. I have done well with my own sauce and purchased sauces. I can honestly say when I started competing I was also surprised that more teams did not make their own sauce, but after just one year I saw how letting someone else do the work made sense.
I agree there are way too many great sauces and rubs for me to spend my time trying to better what is already out there.

gcbbqboy
07-18-2012, 09:40 AM
We cooked at Kettering this past weekend, we have competed about ten times, this time we used BH (as a base) and placed 18th -our best showing...didnt really change anything else.........we are by no means experts...but using the BH seemed to put us moving in the right direction......prior contests we used 100% homemade btw had a great time !!!

Chicks N Pigs BBQ Team

BoneDaddy's
07-18-2012, 10:23 AM
Ok I just have to say it. Why in the world would you enter in a comp and use a store bought sauce on your food. If you are using store bought sauces and rubs then you can not call it your own. In my opinion a true pit master would come up with his own recipes. Like the judge said above he gets tired of tasting the same old sauce. Half the fun to cooking is the recipe development process. Turn the corner and be a pioneer. Happy smoking!

I bet that 70-75% of teams use sauce they did not personally make

Rigger12
07-18-2012, 11:31 AM
I agree, I have been making my own sauces and rubs from the get go...in my opinion and my opinion only, I just felt that if you're going to compete in a contest the entire entry should be something you created. I recently learned that most teams are using store bought rubs and sauces as well as injections....keeping their meat moist. Guess it's gone from being the best cook wins to who can buy the most chemicals and preservatives to enhance their meats flavour.
Nothing against teams who do this, don't get me wrong, I honestly didn't realize that this was taking place for the first two years of our team competing and it is a little frustrating for me trying to do everything from scratch and at times beating the teams who just use store bought stuff.

Smitty250
07-18-2012, 11:36 AM
Like several teams - when I started competing I tried using my own homemade sauce and rubs It did OK - not great. After several comps I started using a couple commercial sauces and rubs that I doctor up. Honestly I do not have the time to prepare my own sauce and rubs from scratch before each comp. and with the explosion of competitive BBQ there are so many commercial sauces and rubs that are top notch. I still like to experiment using commercial stuff as a base and add my own uniqueness to it.

big matt
07-18-2012, 11:41 AM
Like several teams - when I started competing I tried using my own homemade sauce and rubs It did OK - not great. After several comps I started using a couple commercial sauces and rubs that I doctor up. Honestly I do not have the time to prepare my own sauce and rubs from scratch before each comp. and with the explosion of competitive BBQ there are so many commercial sauces and rubs that are top notch. I still like to experiment using commercial stuff as a base and add my own uniqueness to it.

Exactly..let's look at the top 25 in the KCBS rankings..my guess is that at least 80%(maybe more)use commercial rubs and sauces and doctor them to what they want..let's say you take BH as a base and add 10 other things to it..is it still commercial?.IMO at that point it's just another ingredient.

pmanzi
07-18-2012, 11:43 AM
Whats SBR?

Smitty250
07-18-2012, 11:48 AM
Sweet Baby Ray's or Sweet Baby James/Sour Baby James in the case of Left Coast Q!!

big matt
07-18-2012, 11:53 AM
Sweet Baby Ray's or Sweet Baby James/Sour Baby James in the case of Left Coast Q!!

Now that made me laugh so hard I almost choked..and it depends how much he's had to drink the night before as to which one you'll get.

Rigger12
07-18-2012, 03:20 PM
I have to agree with the time component, I'm fortunate enough that I do have the time allotted that I can mess around with sauces and such.
For me personally, I find it that much more satisfying when I win a category, or even just hear my name called for that matter, knowing that start to finish was my product.
And for those who suggested raising your own meat (even though that was a smart a** comment), how cool would that be to raise your own pig, feed it the best product possible, butcher it and smoke it. I know it's overboard but that's one of the things on my list of things to try doing...now it's just getting the wife on board with it!

qsyourdaddy
07-18-2012, 03:29 PM
I would use Drapers Smokin Sauce and cut it with Agave to make a glaze. Cant do straight BH. too sweet.

Big Ron
07-18-2012, 03:30 PM
I use my own, Big Ron's BBQ Sauce.

Smitty250
07-18-2012, 03:49 PM
I thought you would like that Matt!

Smitty250
07-18-2012, 03:51 PM
how cool would that be to raise your own pig, feed it the best product possible, butcher it and smoke it. I know it's overboard but that's one of the things on my list of things to try doing...now it's just getting the wife on board with it!

I have joked with BBQ friends about buying a cow or pig and feeding it Butchers Injections for a few years then using it in a comp. No need to inject it!

rooftop bbq
07-18-2012, 04:11 PM
I have joked with BBQ friends about buying a cow or pig and feeding it Butchers Injections for a few years then using it in a comp. No need to inject it!
what about starving a few chickens so we dont have to scrape skins

Willie's Smokehouse
07-18-2012, 05:18 PM
i would use drapers smokin sauce and cut it with agave to make a glaze. Cant do straight bh. Too sweet.


^^^^^^^ +1

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
07-18-2012, 05:24 PM
I agree, I have been making my own sauces and rubs from the get go...in my opinion and my opinion only, I just felt that if you're going to compete in a contest the entire entry should be something you created. I recently learned that most teams are using store bought rubs and sauces as well as injections....keeping their meat moist. Guess it's gone from being the best cook wins to who can buy the most chemicals and preservatives to enhance their meats flavour.
Nothing against teams who do this, don't get me wrong, I honestly didn't realize that this was taking place for the first two years of our team competing and it is a little frustrating for me trying to do everything from scratch and at times beating the teams who just use store bought stuff.

Whats that say about the sauces and rubs you're making if its getting smoked by "store bought stuff?"

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
07-18-2012, 05:26 PM
I would use Drapers Smokin Sauce and cut it with Agave to make a glaze. Cant do straight BH. too sweet.

Are you cooking for yourself or the judges?

Rigger12
07-18-2012, 08:19 PM
Whats that say about the sauces and rubs you're making if its getting smoked by "store bought stuff?"

Who says we are getting smoked with what we use? Do you win every competition you go into?
I can tell you I place well on a consistent basis, win some lose some...but doing it with my own stuff and having fun with it.
I guess I'm in it for the wrong reasons then.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
07-18-2012, 09:44 PM
Who says we are getting smoked with what we use? Do you win every competition you go into?
I can tell you I place well on a consistent basis, win some lose some...but doing it with my own stuff and having fun with it.
I guess I'm in it for the wrong reasons then.

Never said it was for the wrong reasons. I get tired of reading these post by teams that lose because of (insert excuse here). The top teams could post their rub/sauce recipe online and still beat 99% of the people on this site. Its always they use a special cooker, they use electronics, they use store bought this or that. Im sorry if you took the brunt of this rant but somebody always assumes that their ego and sense of pride is whats holding them back from winning. Its not.

fnbish
07-18-2012, 10:28 PM
You assume wrong. I do compete and I do win and I don't use store bought sauces or rubs and it doesnt cost 700 dollars to make. I would be willing to bet I could go through your frig and pantry and pull off a wining sauce. These big name teams make their own and then make a ton of money selling basic ingredients to other lower level teams. When I found out majority teams on the pro circuit were useing store bought sauces it was a big let down for me and I lost a lot of respect for those guys as well. Hey this is just my opinion and we all know how opinions are. All it akes is a little ketchup, chili sauce, corn syrup and about three other ingredients and you got yourself a sauce. Happy smoking!

Did we get your team name yet? Maybe your call sign I guess. I like the pot stirring :razz:. Always nice to meet other brethren teams. Doing any of the upcoming GA comps?

Rigger12
07-20-2012, 04:49 PM
Never said it was for the wrong reasons. I get tired of reading these post by teams that lose because of (insert excuse here). The top teams could post their rub/sauce recipe online and still beat 99% of the people on this site. Its always they use a special cooker, they use electronics, they use store bought this or that. Im sorry if you took the brunt of this rant but somebody always assumes that their ego and sense of pride is whats holding them back from winning. Its not.

I actually haven't seen many, if any for that matter, posts of teams winning or loosing because of this or that. This thread was nothing more than some people being shocked how many teams use store bought stuff. Do I care, nope, like I said, for me it's a pride thing...I enjoy the challenge of making my own stuff, if it works great if it doesn't, well back to the drawing board.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I was under the impression that most teams make their own rubs, sauces ect....the fact that a lot don't it's surprising...does it affect anything about the comps I go into, no, do I care about being beaten by them, nope...don't really understand why the pot stirring, but every forum has one or two of you around...like being at work for me, but I get paid to deal with this stuff there.

fnbish
07-20-2012, 05:04 PM
I actually haven't seen many, if any for that matter, posts of teams winning or loosing because of this or that. This thread was nothing more than some people being shocked how many teams use store bought stuff. Do I care, nope, like I said, for me it's a pride thing...I enjoy the challenge of making my own stuff, if it works great if it doesn't, well back to the drawing board.

Well technically it was a thread started where someone simply asked "Is there any other sauce being used besides BH....?" and then it derailed before the first page ended :becky:.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
07-20-2012, 09:55 PM
I actually haven't seen many, if any for that matter, posts of teams winning or loosing because of this or that. This thread was nothing more than some people being shocked how many teams use store bought stuff. Do I care, nope, like I said, for me it's a pride thing...I enjoy the challenge of making my own stuff, if it works great if it doesn't, well back to the drawing board.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I was under the impression that most teams make their own rubs, sauces ect....the fact that a lot don't it's surprising...does it affect anything about the comps I go into, no, do I care about being beaten by them, nope...don't really understand why the pot stirring, but every forum has one or two of you around...like being at work for me, but I get paid to deal with this stuff there.


Guess it's gone from being the best cook wins to who can buy the most chemicals and preservatives to enhance their meats flavour.



unfortunately there's more than one or two of you around that think this way.

dhuffjr
07-20-2012, 11:27 PM
If I buy sauce at the store and mix it with other stuff, it is no longer store bought sauce. It is an ingredient in my recipe. Who the hell has time to make ketchup or Worcestershire sauce?

I know someone who made Worcestershire sauce and said it blows away the store bought stuff. Its on my mile long list of things to do.

Ketchup I'll keep buying. :focus:

motoeric
07-21-2012, 12:00 AM
The Grill Scouts use Head Country.

It's an excellent sauce. If you haven't tried it yet, give it a shot.

Eric