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View Full Version : I sure wish comment cards were given to me


Fat Freddy
07-07-2012, 10:00 AM
I competed in the Whiting,IA contest July 3-4 and I have given a few days before saying anything. I have been trying to figure this out and cant. As a judge I am not slamming judges especially new ones because as far as I know it may have been more experienced judges that got me and the good teams were as consistent as ever. Big Tz won GC.

Saying all of that here are my chicken appearance scores 9,9,9,8,6,6 and my chicken taste scores 9,8,9,9,6,5. I have been working very hard on my chicken and to see this wide variance bothers me. If I would have gotten a comment card or 2, I may not have agreed with but at least I would have known someones thinking. I also understand taste is subjective but really shouldnt the appearance scores be more similar?

To be honest my pork scores were all over the place as well, however it was just one judge that got me on pork, and if I understand correctly that score was thrown out so I actually got my first KCBS walk in Pork.

My ribs and brisket scores were disappointing but deserved so I dont question any of those scores but I just cant wrap my brain around my chicken scores especially chicken. I dont know if we are way off or on the right path.

There have been a few other teams I have talked with that are also saying the scores were all over the place and they wish there was comments but like I said the top teams were still the top teams so there had to be consistency somewhere and these cooks just know what they are doing way better than I do.

Again I am not throwing any judges under the bus, I just wanted it out there that I really wish I would have gotten comment cards so as a new team I would know kinda what I did wrong.

Goddahavit
07-07-2012, 10:28 AM
My last chicken Appearance scores, 9 9 9 7 7 6 umm ok, i just have another drink and try again.
Its chicken in a box, dont over-think it, try it again before deciding what to do..

porkingINpublic
07-07-2012, 10:35 AM
Same thing happened to me on ribs about a month ago.... No comment card.

QorDie
07-07-2012, 11:30 AM
Couldn't agree more. Brisket last weekend had 5 judges with all 9s and 8s, judge 6 gave it 555, no comment card.

Theresa B
07-07-2012, 11:46 AM
It's my policy as a judge that if I give a "5" I will always give a comment card. It may not be too informative but it will explain why I rated it the way I did. On the other end of the spectrum, if I give three 9's I also write a card..you've earned it!

DawgPhan
07-07-2012, 11:53 AM
something was off in your box? got a picture of the box?

same with the taste. Something was out of balance.

SCSmoke
07-07-2012, 11:55 AM
Couldn't agree more. Brisket last weekend had 5 judges with all 9s and 8s, judge 6 gave it 555, no comment card.

I think they should require judges that give a 5 or less to fill out a comment card. My only worry with this idea is that lazy judges might give 6's just so they don't have to.

Fat Freddy
07-07-2012, 12:07 PM
something was off in your box? got a picture of the box?

same with the taste. Something was out of balance.

No pic of box because my photo taker forgot.:rolleyes: But I agree something could have been off however if something was off why did I get 3 9s and an 8?

On taste I know it is subjective so I will take it as best as I can.

But your question hits the nail on the head Was there something off in the box to those 2 judges? A comment card would have explained it.

Just to be clear i am not complaining about the judging I just feel this would be a ideal time for comment cards to have been used especially for a new team. I may have had 4 new judges and 2 master judges for all I know and it was the master judges that found issue or maybe it was new judges scoring all over the place. I have no idea I just wish there was comment cards with the wide variance of scores. My ribs and brisket were a disaster and the scores were all over as well but were at least more consistent ribs 999,865,877,787,866,888

Brauma
07-07-2012, 12:25 PM
We got the same thing 2 weeks ago. All 9's and 8's then a 6, 5. Another box got all 9's and 8's then a 6, 6.

If one judge dings you, it's no big deal because they throw it out. But when you get two low scores you're farked.

So frustrating.

ModelMaker
07-07-2012, 12:27 PM
Welcome to competition BBQ!!
You may have had a judge who always scores low like that, you may also had a couple judges who always score high.
Don't try to figure it out, just cook your best and hope for the table full of like minded judges.
We're out there.
Ed

Podge
07-07-2012, 01:31 PM
I've only got one comment card, and I was very grateful to get it. I wished they still did it.

Smokey Bones
07-07-2012, 03:59 PM
You don't say if it is full thighs or a cupcake version. I do a cupcake "style" and regularly get 8 and 9's for all thee categories. So when I get that judge that give's me three 6's I know it is a judge who doesn't like that style and does grade down. I know it is not me, it is them.

I'm also a CBJ with 15 contests judge. Early on while still trying to learn what winning Q taste like and what was winning and other more experienced judges thought I learned this. A few judges most decidedly do not like that style. Doesn't matter the taste looks or texture, it is not real chicken pieces to them and they do score low.

My hope is to not hit that table, knowing if I do my other 5 scores better be good, and I'm dead if I hit a table with two bad judges like that

Meat Man
07-07-2012, 04:02 PM
You always have more of a chance with ribs and chicken to have that one off piece. We had the same thing happen on ribs last weekend. I did however recieve 2 comment cards. One said our ribs were over done, the other said they were under done. Not much help there. So much for comment cards.

Bentley
07-07-2012, 06:08 PM
I do a cupcake "style"...regularly So when I get that judge that give's me three 6's I know it is a judge who doesn't like that style and does grade down.

A few judges most decidedly do not like that style.

Judges don't have, nor get that "right"...

I post this question in a serious manner and this is most certainly not tongue n cheek..

As a Proud MCBJ and and even more so as someone who has been competing 10 years...

How do we correct this and educate this type judge so they are productive and unbiased?

Big Mike
07-07-2012, 06:18 PM
I received a comment card at my last comp. It said they had trouble getting the sauce out of their mustache.

Balls Casten
07-07-2012, 09:19 PM
First I agree with you Big T's is cheating some how. But so far I have not been able to catch him. I can say I have learned a lot spying on him. :-)

You are right sometimes it is a judge but it happens both ways. I have recieved better scores than I deserved. Its not just BBQ ...its scoring and opinions.

What you see from the winners is that they are turning in almost perfect food every time. To use your example of Big T's ... the guy won three contests in a row ... against good competition. He is not giving the judges any reason to score down. Where you had 4 judges that over looked that black speck on the third piece of chicken ... the other 2 did not. (an example not saying you had a black speck on your chicken) Remove the little imperfections and you will start winning more consistantly.

I have never recieved a usefull comment card.

QansasjayhawQ
07-07-2012, 11:11 PM
It is frustrating when scores vary so much. From what I've experienced, I'd say that local judges who ONLY judge that one, single competition each year - even if they have judged it 15 years in a row - well, they simply don't have the exposure that more experienced judges do. I have seen this happening a lot at competitions where they use 'local' 'celebrity' judges instead of (in addition to) 100% KCBS CBJs. Not that KCBS CBJs necessarily avoid that variance, but it is less likely to happen, from what I've seen.
Receiving a comment card, no matter what it says, is definitely better than no feedback at all.

JimmyDAL
07-08-2012, 07:42 PM
They should all be mandatory 5-9 cooks spend too much time and money not to get feedback. IMHO

DawgPhan
07-08-2012, 07:54 PM
also dont always assume that the high scores are "right" and it was the low judges that got it "wrong"..you might have gotten 2 gift 9's or hammered on 2 6's.

I am guessing that on taste it was either too salty, spicy, or sweet or something like that..you get a judge that loves heat and you get a 9 from him and 6's from the tender mouth judge....in that example you can't assume those 9's weren't actually gifts.

jbrink01
07-08-2012, 07:56 PM
My chicken appearance this week was 9,9,9,9,9,6. Really?

Eggspert
07-08-2012, 08:10 PM
Is the chicken spicy? Sometimes I have seen a variance in taste scores when the chicken is slightly spicy. You will have a judge or two that can't handle spicy. Especially in the upper Midwest.

As far a variance in appearance, It could be too saucy or not saucy enough. Some judges like super saucy candy chicken some don't. It's hard to say without a picture. I have heard of judges marking you down if they see red pepper flakes in the sauce saying it "looks too spicy". Not sure if that is what happened, but just an idea.

Eggspert BBQ
3 Lg BGE
Stoker
Orange Thermapen

jbrink01
07-08-2012, 08:15 PM
Sorry - It was appearance. Tastes were good, 8 and 9's. 8th place.

Bentley
07-08-2012, 08:18 PM
They should all be mandatory 5-9 cooks spend too much time and money not to get feedback. IMHO


So what...I dont fricken care if you spent $100 or $5000 to compete. Thats the teams choice, dont like it, go find a cheaper hobby!

Contracted Cookers
07-08-2012, 08:27 PM
So what...I dont fricken care if you spent $100 or $5000 to compete. Thats the teams choice, dont like it, go find a cheaper hobby!
easy

Contracted Cookers
07-08-2012, 08:29 PM
My chicken appearance this week was 9,9,9,9,9,6. Really?
looks like 5 judges were jacked up. just kidn nice job brother

Fat Freddy
07-08-2012, 10:43 PM
I understand without pics it is hard to understand why I am questioning the appearance scores. No excuse I just forgot to take pics. But I also think by reading many of these posts explanations as to why I got the 2 low scores are going on. And that in a nut shell is what I am saying IF i would have gotten a comment card or 2 I may have understood. I may not have agreed but would have understood. Look at jbrink's posting 999996. I cant speak for him but I bet he is very curious why that one score was different.

To me if it was experienced judges that gave me a lower score the so be it, maybe it is what I deserved but it would be useful to me to know what I had done wrong. I only say that because this was my 2nd ever KCBS contest and I was hoping to know where to improve. I also know I got scores i didnt deserve that benefited me especially in Ribs. Someone gave me 9s:confused: those were the worst ribs I had ever done in my life and the rest of my scores on ribs shows that but apparently 1 judge thought they were good.

Again just my opinion but to me this would have been a good time to have gotten a couple of comment cards one way or the other. With the appearance scores being on both ends of the spectrum. And then none of us would have to guess why 2 of the scores were substantially lower.

JimmyDAL
07-09-2012, 05:09 AM
Bentley, lighten up. What was meant was that no matter what score is given a 5 or a 9 a comment should be given. We have also competed in Chili comps and they Are which helps out tremendously.

Eggspert
07-09-2012, 07:34 AM
I think not getting comment cards is part of the challenging part of the competition. If you got comments each time it would be easier to do well. It's a challenge and a competition. They shouldn't tell you exactly what to do.

Tweaking this and that and seeing where your scores fall is part of the fun/challenging/frustrating park of the whole competition. Good luck!

Eggspert BBQ
3 Lg BGE
Stoker
Orange Thermapen

TooSaucedToPork
07-09-2012, 10:21 AM
I agree with comment cards given for every score, every catagory...no matter what.

You want to improve KCBS and judging critera, hold the judges accountable for feedback.

If the judges are required to comment on what they like and what they don't like, then we as cooks can improve. The quality of BBQ improves. KCBS as a whole improves.

Also figure out some way that the table captian, or other official representative, gets to review the cards as they are handed in, and have a disscussion with judges that are not complying. We follow many rules as cooks, and we get a DQ when we break the rules...who is holding judges accountable for breaking the comment card rule???

Yes this would be a little annoying to judges at first, but right now it is really annoying to us cooks, as we have no way of improvement without knowledge.

You know one of the few things I like about MBN over KCBS...if you ask a judge to please come back and give you feedback, most of the time they return and have a conversation with you, and you get to understand their point of view.

And before I get flamed - I am a certified KCBS, MBN, and MIM judge...I always fill out comment cards for great product AND for problem product...I ALWAYS go back and visit the teams I judge and give feedback...I ALWAYS go to KCBS teams at a contest I judge and try to figure out if I had their entry, then give feedback. To me, this is the responsibility a CERTIFIED bbq judge has to teams...

Neil

PatAttack
07-09-2012, 11:03 AM
Had the same thing happen to us last month. 9's across the board and then a six.

Who knows???:noidea:

Oh, and no comment card, either.

Balls Casten
07-09-2012, 11:21 AM
If ya get 5 9's and one 6, what could they possibly say or explain that would make you change what you are doing?

One bad judge or two bad judges is not what keeping you from winning.

I agree with ya all that it can be improved but it’s not going to change anything in regards to standing or placement. So why create a bigger bureaucracy with more work for the judges. They are telling you what they think with their scores.

Balls Casten
07-09-2012, 11:22 AM
If you want a judges opinion hire one for the weekend .. most I know will work for beer. :-D
Have him critique your food as/after you box for turn in.

Fat Freddy
07-09-2012, 11:32 AM
If you want a judges opinion hire one for the weekend .. most I know will work for beer. :-D
Have him critique your food as/after you box for turn in.

I am doing that very thing coming up in a couple of weeks I got a judge and a couple of cooks coming over to my house the week of the Waterloo contest(wife has to work so I couldnt enter), that way I have some good feedback for the Mason City contest the following week.

TooSaucedToPork
07-09-2012, 11:44 AM
If ya get 5 9's and one 6, what could they possibly say or explain that would make you change what you are doing?

One bad judge or two bad judges is not what keeping you from winning.

I agree with ya all that it can be improved but itís not going to change anything in regards to standing or placement. So why create a bigger bureaucracy with more work for the judges. They are telling you what they think with their scores.


Very true, but...

They could be seeing something small that the other judges are missing...a comment card would fix that.

More work for judges??? I am a judge, its pretty dang easy to do. I'm just saying that they are told to fill out a comment card with a five or below. If they do not do this they are breaking a rule. When we as cooks break a rule we are repremanded or DQed...what happens to judges...nothing.

tigerpaw
07-09-2012, 12:19 PM
Very true, but...
I'm just saying that they are told to fill out a comment card with a five or below. If they do not do this they are breaking a rule. When we as cooks break a rule we are repremanded or DQed...what happens to judges...nothing.


You indicate you are a judge yet you comment on a rule that is in fact NOT a rule. It is "suggested" a comment card be filled out but there is no requirement to do so.

I personally fill one out for anything 5 and below. But as a Table Captain I have witnessed persons not doing the same from 1st time judges ( comment was made he really did not know what to write to help the cook) to a Master Judge ( her answer was she did not want to - on a 3 score to boot / two other judges filled out cards on the same entry so I guess the team got the message it was a bad entry. A third card probably would not help that much more. ) It is not MANDATORY nor is it a rule. And for every possible reason that I have heard time and time again, the one I hear the most is -
If you set 5 and below, some judges will give a 6 just to not have to fill one out. Is that a good answer? No but it is one answer as to why this is not a rule.
KCBS should be able to help new judges bring their scores into line by offering what their table scored at versus what they scored at. However that too is suspect: 6 thighs did not come from one chicken unless imported from Russia. Two of the ribs were closer to the fire than the other 4 presented. Burnt ends had one that was pure gristle unseen by cook / box prep person. "6th" judge was a celebrity and saw average 6 as his / her starting point up or down from there. Somehow a mistake in cutting ribs had one cut with no meat either side of bone. Box turned in upside down. I am sure other Judges can offer similar things they have run into with entry boxes and that their scores were way off from others at their table. 3 of those listed above I have had occur to me as a judge or seen on my table as a Captain.

TooSaucedToPork
07-09-2012, 01:03 PM
[QUOTE=tigerpaw;2128149]You indicate you are a judge yet you comment on a rule that is in fact NOT a rule. It is "suggested" a comment card be filled out but there is no requirement to do so.

I personally fill one out for anything 5 and below. But as a Table Captain I have witnessed persons not doing the same from 1st time judges ( comment was made he really did not know what to write to help the cook) to a Master Judge ( her answer was she did not want to - on a 3 score to boot / two other judges filled out cards on the same entry so I guess the team got the message it was a bad entry. A third card probably would not help that much more. ) It is not MANDATORY nor is it a rule. And for every possible reason that I have heard time and time again, the one I hear the most is -
If you set 5 and below, some judges will give a 6 just to not have to fill one out. Is that a good answer? No but it is one answer as to why this is not a rule.QUOTE]

I understand it is not a "in stone" KCBS rule...but it dang well should be. Every COMPETITIVE COOK that I know that judges contests fills in the cards out of respect for the teams. Many of us consider it a "RULE" to fill out the cards.

I believe fellow judges need to take on the responsibility of filling out a card for each entry. What you liked, what you didn't...

No it's not a rule, but please respect the cooks and do it. There is a reason we do this to ourselves week in and week out. This small favor would go a long way to helping a lot of teams overcome obsticales...

Balls Casten
07-09-2012, 03:22 PM
I am doing that very thing coming up in a couple of weeks I got a judge and a couple of cooks coming over to my house the week of the Waterloo contest(wife has to work so I couldnt enter), that way I have some good feedback for the Mason City contest the following week.

Its very helpful when you can get them to do it.


Also did you check your scores? Im having a hard time, given the scores you gave in the first post, getting your chicken score to the 149.714 that KCBS shows you recieved at Whiting.

JimmyDAL
07-09-2012, 03:35 PM
It's like having an opportunity to get feedback that doesn't require much effort compared to the time the cooks have invested, I personally feel it should be a requirement. It's like someone just saying it sucked and no more and the same way it was spectacular but not telling you why. JMHO