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Disconnect
06-18-2012, 09:36 AM
Is there a new rule on bite-through skin in judging this year?

On Saturday, we got a comment on our chicken ("rubbery skin" on a 6 for tenderness.) On the one hand, I'd love to encourage comment cards and it is certainly possible one of the thighs we put in didn't have perfect skin (the others did, and the judges agreed.) The problem is, another team told us that they aren't supposed to rate bite-through skin this year.

Is it worth contacting KCBS or did I get bad info? It doesn't matter specifically (we weren't DAL and we're nowhere near the awards) but if it is being judged incorrectly, they should notify the judge. And if not, I should SFTU and get back to cooking :)

mobow
06-18-2012, 09:46 AM
Bite through skin is not really talked about one way or the other specifically. The only comment made about skin is if it is presented with skin on you should taste it. That being said when judging for tenderness if you have a rubbery or tough to chew piece of skin in the bite it is going to effect the tenderness score. keith

Disconnect
06-18-2012, 09:51 AM
That was pretty much my thought when I got the card - it was a 6, lower than we've been getting but not worth freaking out over (and I was glad to know why.) The other guys were pretty vehement that it was badly judged and needed to be brought to KCBS, so I wanted to get another opinion before I go running around yelling :)

Thanks!

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
06-18-2012, 10:29 AM
If I presented something that isn't tender I would expect my tenderness scores to be low. It doesn't say "ignore skin texture" in the rules. Now if you pulled the skin off and somebody marked you down for not having skin that is wrong. You are to judge what is presented not what you think should be in the box. If your going to put skin on chicken in the box I would make sure the skin is tender.

AbleAcresBBQ
06-18-2012, 11:33 AM
Bourbon Barrel-How about sharing your technique on the Jeffersonville chicken entry! :clap:

DawgPhan
06-18-2012, 03:51 PM
file this away in the cooks make terrible judges drawer.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
06-18-2012, 04:01 PM
Bourbon Barrel-How about sharing your technique on the Jeffersonville chicken entry! :clap:

Ha! It's the same one that didn't get a call in the last 3 comps.

Vince RnQ
06-18-2012, 04:29 PM
I took the CBJ class held this year in Lake Havasu, AZ and the way this issue was presented is that the chicken should be bite through. Someone asked what that meant about the skin, (there were a number of experienced cooks in the class), and the answer was that the chicken should be bite through. Big help, huh.

Here is what I think was being implied: If there is skin attached to the chicken and you can't bite through it, the chicken wasn't "bite through" and the tenderness score should reflect this accordingly.

ModelMaker
06-18-2012, 04:54 PM
If you take a bite of chicken and the whole skin comes off and slaps you in the chin, your skin is not very tender. so your tenderness score is "average".
Ed

thirdeye
06-18-2012, 05:38 PM
I've only judged in the West, and can say that although many judges appreciate good quality skin (either soft bite-thru, or crispy & bite-thru), they put most of their emphasis with respect to scoring... on meat texture and moistness. After the first bite, most pieces are generally separated to some degree, and the second bite (if there is one) may or may not include skin.

All that said ... I've been in the situation several times where I got a good bite on a particular entry and notice another judge with a bad bite.. The blinders go on for me, and I judge my piece as-is.

Disconnect
06-19-2012, 07:44 AM
Thanks all!

That all sounds like what I was thinking initially - we had a piece in there with an imperfect skin and the judge was nice enough to throw a card in and let us know what was wrong. (I would have been more concerned if it potentially dropped us out of the calls, but we pulled 62 of 69 so.. And his other 2 scores were pretty good.)

The response from the other team was .. excited. (But they were trying to help, and we can use all the help we can get!)

EatonHoggBBQ
06-19-2012, 08:19 AM
I never judge down if an entry does not have bite through skin.

"Remember, as a KCBS Judge, you are not judging by what you like but to the standards defined by KCBS."

Where in the KCBS standards does it state that the skin on a chicken entry must be bite through?

DawgPhan
06-19-2012, 08:41 AM
I never judge down if an entry does not have bite through skin.

"Remember, as a KCBS Judge, you are not judging by what you like but to the standards defined by KCBS."

Where in the KCBS standards does it state that the skin on a chicken entry must be bite through?




are there any other items that you dont judge when it is put in the box?

Of course you should judge the skin. If it is in the box it gets judged.

quarters69
06-19-2012, 08:46 AM
Bourbon Barrel-How about sharing your technique on the Jeffersonville chicken entry! :clap:

Like you guys need any help!!!!
:) :) :).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rweller
06-19-2012, 08:56 AM
I never judge down if an entry does not have bite through skin.

"Remember, as a KCBS Judge, you are not judging by what you like but to the standards defined by KCBS."

Where in the KCBS standards does it state that the skin on a chicken entry must be bite through?


John, I judge the same way you do and agree with you. I DO NOT judge down if chicken is not Bite through. BUT I have had my arse chewd from most on here about it. They think skin should be judged. I guess I'm a cooks judge and will continue to judge the way I have for years.

Oh Dawgphan by the way I don't judge greenery and most boxes have it. Some teams do a lot better job making it look good to. I judge meat. JMO, blast away, I've already heard it.

DawgPhan
06-19-2012, 09:18 AM
John, I judge the same way you do and agree with you. I DO NOT judge down if chicken is not Bite through. BUT I have had my arse chewd from most on here about it. They think skin should be judged. I guess I'm a cooks judge and will continue to judge the way I have for years.

Oh Dawgphan by the way I don't judge greenery and most boxes have it. Some teams do a lot better job making it look good to. I judge meat. JMO, blast away, I've already heard it.


you wonder why most cooks dont think too highly of judges...attitudes of I am going to do it my way, rules be damned, is a good start.

You arent a cook's judge...you are a you judge. cooks want everything in the box judged by each judge. Not judges picking and choosing what they want to judge.

EatonHoggBBQ
06-19-2012, 09:18 AM
are there any other items that you dont judge when it is put in the box?

Of course you should judge the skin. If it is in the box it gets judged.


Did I say I don't judge the skin?????

DawgPhan
06-19-2012, 09:25 AM
Did I say I don't judge the skin?????


if you get 2 pieces of chicken, one has perfect moist tender chicken under some leathery skin, you would give it a 9. Same as the piece of chicken with moist perfectly tender chicken with perfect moist and tender skin.

In that case, you just f'd that second cook with the better chicken. The reward for cooking a perfect piece of chicken was no different than the reward for cooking a poorly cooked piece of chicken.

EatonHoggBBQ
06-19-2012, 09:40 AM
Show me where it says bite through skin..... it says "taste the skin".

Chicken may be presented with or without the skin. It may also be presented with a combination of dark and white meat or all of one or the other. Properly smoked chicken will be moist and have a nice texture and any juice present should be clear. Smoked chicken has a tendency to produce a red coloring around the bone areas, especially in the thigh and leg meat. To some it gives the impression that it was undercooked. Always check the juices. If they are clear, chicken is properly cooked. There may be a pink appearance to the breast meat if it has
been cooked for some time; however, some cooks prepare their chicken in such a way that the breast meat will remain white. Because of this do not judge chicken on its color. If presented with skin on you should at least taste the skin.

Sounds like you want judges to compare entries.

Kirk
06-19-2012, 09:46 AM
you wonder why most cooks dont think too highly of judges...attitudes of I am going to do it my way, rules be damned, is a good start.

You arent a cook's judge...you are a you judge. cooks want everything in the box judged by each judge. Not judges picking and choosing what they want to judge.
Gotta agree with you on this one. If it goes in the box, it should be subject to judging. I'm a little surprised by Mr Weller's comments here.

As far as judges doing things "their own way," the only thing I see coming from that is inconsistent judging from table to table and event to event. That's the one thing that drives cooks crazy and I'm sure it's not what the sanctioning body is after. The attitude doesn't help either.

TTNuge
06-19-2012, 09:49 AM
Show me where it says bite through skin..... it says "taste the skin".

Chicken may be presented with or without the skin. It may also be presented with a combination of dark and white meat or all of one or the other. Properly smoked chicken will be moist and have a nice texture and any juice present should be clear. Smoked chicken has a tendency to produce a red coloring around the bone areas, especially in the thigh and leg meat. To some it gives the impression that it was undercooked. Always check the juices. If they are clear, chicken is properly cooked. There may be a pink appearance to the breast meat if it has
been cooked for some time; however, some cooks prepare their chicken in such a way that the breast meat will remain white. Because of this do not judge chicken on its color. If presented with skin on you should at least taste the skin.

Sounds like you want judges to compare entries.



The skin of the chicken is part of the meat, it's not garnish that shouldn't be judged, it's the actual meat being judged and if it wasn't you wouldn't be asked to taste it. If it's in the box and it's part of the meat it should be judged based on appearance, taste and tenderness. If you can honestly say to yourself that a rubbery piece of chicken skin rates high on the tenderness scale then that's a scary thought.

DawgPhan
06-19-2012, 09:50 AM
Show me where it says bite through skin..... it says "taste the skin".

Chicken may be presented with or without the skin. It may also be presented with a combination of dark and white meat or all of one or the other. Properly smoked chicken will be moist and have a nice texture and any juice present should be clear. Smoked chicken has a tendency to produce a red coloring around the bone areas, especially in the thigh and leg meat. To some it gives the impression that it was undercooked. Always check the juices. If they are clear, chicken is properly cooked. There may be a pink appearance to the breast meat if it has
been cooked for some time; however, some cooks prepare their chicken in such a way that the breast meat will remain white. Because of this do not judge chicken on its color. If presented with skin on you should at least taste the skin.

Sounds like you want judges to compare entries.


I just want you, and everyone other judge, to fairly judge what was turned in. Not disregard things that are not done properly because you think it is too difficult to nail or shouldnt be judged.

If a piece of chicken has tough leathery skin, that piece of chicken doesnt deserve a 9 in tenderness.

fnbish
06-19-2012, 09:55 AM
I just want you, and everyone other judge, to fairly judge what was turned in. Not disregard things that are not done properly because you think it is too difficult to nail or shouldnt be judged.

If a piece of chicken has tough leathery skin, that piece of chicken doesnt deserve a 9 in tenderness.

I read what EatonHoggBBQ said a different way. It sounds like he judges the skin, but just doesn't matter if the skin is bite through. So (and I'm just speculating here) if for example the skin was charred like heck and tasted like an ashtray and was tough or had a texture of say mucus slime them perhaps he would score lower. To me all I read is "I don't judge bite through".

He probably needs to clarify before any more assumptions are made on exactly how he judges. I also agree that everything put in the box should be judged, but again we need some clarification here.

bbq.tom
06-19-2012, 10:42 AM
As I take a bite of the chicken (biting through the skin and meat (if skin is on the piece), I proceed to chew the bite and score for tenderness - not only the meat in that bite, but the skin that came with the bite as well. USUALLY, if the skin has "poor" bite-through it will also be chewy in my mouth along with the meat of the chicken - resulting in a lower score than a bite that had "good" bite-through and was NOT chewy in my mouth along with the meat of the chicken.

As I take my second bite from the opposite side of the piece, the skin "normally" comes off in my mouth (or against my chin); however, I am usually looking for the flavor of the second bite and I don't reduce the score based on the skin coming off.

Skin on the chicken is part of the chicken and should be judged accordingly.

mobow
06-19-2012, 10:57 AM
I agree with BBQ.tom and taking the discussion even further I would would say that even if the first bite causes the skin to come off and slap me in the chin I will bite a piece of the skin off and judge the tenderness of the chew. Sometimes the skin may come off because of the way I bit it or I did not have a good hold of it or it just was not adhering to the meat for whatever reasons. Bottom line if it chews well it scores well. If it chews poorly it scores poorly. keith

EatonHoggBBQ
06-19-2012, 11:53 AM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................

Anyone find where it says bite through skin is a KCBS standard yet??? :bored:

Rich Parker
06-19-2012, 12:14 PM
you wonder why most cooks dont think too highly of judges...attitudes of I am going to do it my way, rules be damned, is a good start.

You arent a cook's judge...you are a you judge. cooks want everything in the box judged by each judge. Not judges picking and choosing what they want to judge.

Speak for yourself because this cook doesn't want garnish taken in to considering when scoring. The rules don't say anything about chicken having bite through skin.

southernstyle
06-19-2012, 12:15 PM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................

Anyone find where it says bite through skin is a KCBS standard yet??? :bored:

Your right. It's not a standard but it is part of the bite and should and will affect the flavor and texture of the bite

DawgPhan
06-19-2012, 12:56 PM
Speak for yourself because this cook doesn't want garnish taken in to considering when scoring. The rules don't say anything about chicken having bite through skin.


and yet the rules are that entries with improper garnish get a 1 for appearance, so it has to be looked at. If garnish covers up the meat, I think that it would, rightfully, be judged down.

The rules dont say anything about chicken skin. They dont say anything about pork rib membranes either, but if you turn in a rib without the membrane removed I would expect that judges would score it lower, not ignore that it is there.

Rich Parker
06-19-2012, 01:11 PM
and yet the rules are that entries with improper garnish get a 1 for appearance, so it has to be looked at. If garnish covers up the meat, I think that it would, rightfully, be judged down.

The rules dont say anything about chicken skin. They dont say anything about pork rib membranes either, but if you turn in a rib without the membrane removed I would expect that judges would score it lower, not ignore that it is there.

Improper garnish is a rule violation and shouldn't be scored anything other than it is legal.

I have never heard of a cbj instructor informing people to judge down on skin. In fact, our instructor informed us bite through skin was not a rule or requirement.

DawgPhan
06-19-2012, 01:21 PM
Improper garnish is a rule violation and shouldn't be scored anything other than it is legal.

I have never heard of a cbj instructor informing people to judge down on skin. In fact, our instructor informed us bite through skin was not a rule or requirement.


so if someone put 6 awesome looking ribs in a box and piled parsley on top of them, you would expect that box to get the same score as a perfect putting green parsley box with those same 6 awesome ribs?

I just dont understand why cooks would be given a pass on chicken if they screw it up the skin, but not on the other meats.

mobow
06-19-2012, 01:36 PM
I believe we all agree that bite through is not a requirement of KCBS.
I believe we all agree that skin should be tasted if it is presented.
I think we all agree that if the skin taste bad or has a bad texture it will be scored according.
Am I wrong?
keith

rweller
06-19-2012, 01:46 PM
I believe we all agree that bite through is not a requirement of KCBS.
I believe we all agree that skin should be tasted if it is presented.
I think we all agree that if the skin taste bad or has a bad texture it will be scored according.
Am I wrong?
keith

I agree with you Keith. You are not wrong on this.

Bentley
06-19-2012, 07:27 PM
Please Lord, let my box of chicken hit the table where many of these judges who dont care that the chicken skin is not bite through are sitting this Saturday in Apex...Amen...

hamiltont
06-19-2012, 07:43 PM
I believe we all agree that bite through is not a requirement of KCBS.
I believe we all agree that skin should be tasted if it is presented.
I think we all agree that if the skin taste bad or has a bad texture it will be scored according.
Am I wrong?
keith

That's how I see it, and how I score it. Cheers!!!

arrowhead
06-19-2012, 07:56 PM
That's how I see it, and how I score it. Cheers!!!

hey hamiltont, are you going to council bluffs at the end of july to judge some tough chicken skin?

off topic, but what does a guy have to do to judge at the meade, wine and beer contest?

hamiltont
06-19-2012, 08:21 PM
hey hamiltont, are you going to council bluffs at the end of july to judge some tough chicken skin?

off topic, but what does a guy have to do to judge at the mead, wine and beer contest?

Yep, I'll be judging tough skin, not. :wink:

To judge Beer & Mead you should be BJCP Certified. THAT is not easy. Here's a link to the Beer Judge Certification Program Exam Center as a reference. http://www.bjcp.org/examcenter.php

And now back to our regularly scheduled program...

Vince RnQ
06-19-2012, 08:30 PM
Here's a curveball question: If a team were to decide to turn in skinless chicken does anyone think that would be scored as evenly and fairly as those who turned in chicken with skin, regardless of whether the skin was bite through?

I know the stock answer is to "judge it as presented" but over 100 contests of experience has taught me that the stock answer is only likely to be used by most, not all, of the judging pool. Heck, if judging as presented was always followed, people would turn in legs, wings & breasts a lot more often.

The simple fact is that the skin is part of the chicken and the tenderness score should reflect if it was tough or tender. The taste score should reflect if the flavor was good. Not a judge is not going to score down for tough skin then don't score down for any part of the chicken that is tough.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
06-19-2012, 08:59 PM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................

Anyone find where it says bite through skin is a KCBS standard yet??? :bored:

Where does it say skin should not be judged on tenderness?

boogiesnap
06-19-2012, 09:17 PM
Where does it say skin should not be judged on tenderness?

the skin may be tender but not bite through while on the meat.

Q-Dat
06-19-2012, 09:32 PM
I really don't see where this is all that complicated.

If the skin is still on, then its part of the entry. From what I understand, the judges are instructed to take a bite out of it as it is. They are not singling out the skin, because it is part of piece of chicken.

If they remove the skin and then taste it, then they are judging the skin separately.

If they simply bite into the entry as it is presented, then the skin is part of it. If the skin is tough, being that it is part of the piece of chicken, then it will and should affect the score.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
06-19-2012, 09:47 PM
the skin may be tender but not bite through while on the meat.

Would that same piece of chicken with bite thru skin warrant a higher tenderness score?

boogiesnap
06-19-2012, 09:56 PM
Would that same piece of chicken with bite thru skin warrant a higher tenderness score?

not according to KCBS instruction and standards.

in real time? yes, absolutely.