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Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 11:51 AM
Being new to this competition thing and realizing my brisket is where I really need to improve has got me to looking at this. It seems like the teams that win GC or RGC may not score as high in the other three categories, but they are more often than not in the top 1 or 2 of brisket.

Has anyone else noticed that?

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
06-17-2012, 12:16 PM
Being new to this competition thing and realizing my brisket is where I really need to improve has got me to looking at this. It seems like the teams that win GC or RGC may not score as high in the other three categories, but they are more often than not in the top 1 or 2 of brisket.

Has anyone else noticed that?

Teams that win score well in everything. Anymore you simply have to be good in every category.

Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 12:35 PM
Generally, I agree with that. But if you look at the results listed on here you'll notice that the names of winners appear in the top of the brisket category more often than the other categories.

jrbBBQ
06-17-2012, 12:50 PM
It seems that most people can cook chicken ribs and pork well. Last month, I recieved 4th in chicken, 3rd in ribs, 6th in pork, 6th in brisket out of 31 and finished 3rd overall(you have to finish really well in every category for GC or RGC) Brisket is probably the most difficult for most teams and most inconsistant. I was actually talking to someone this weekend at a comp and we agreed that all the categories were kinda for backyard guys and brisket is what seperates the good cooks from the average ones. I then proceeded to bomb my brisket category for the comp. Oh well, at least I got a call in ribs.

Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 12:55 PM
I was actually talking to someone this weekend at a comp and we agreed that all the categories were kinda for backyard guys and brisket is what seperates the good cooks from the average ones.
Haven't thought about it that way, but it makes a lot of sense.

Alexa RnQ
06-17-2012, 12:59 PM
Out of 22 GCs, about half involved a 1st brisket; of the rest, we had 3 thirds, 3 4ths, 2 5ths, a 6th, a 7th and even one where we did not get a top ten brisket call at all.

In general, I think that it's just a category, like the others. Brisket isn't weighted more heavily than the other three. It's quite possible that the experience level that enables a team to perform well consistently across the other three categories is going to yield a better batting average on brisket as well.

Certainly, brisket has a cachet and mystique among cooks. VQ has long said that he'd almost rather get called for first brisket than for RGC, just because brisket is what it is.

If you take away the mystery of brisket, and the emotional tie that comes with what a hard thing it is to cook consistently, it just comes down to numbers over the four categories. And to be perfectly honest, we've had more than one GC where we did not score a first place at all.

Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 01:39 PM
O, so I'm bored and taking advantage of a nice day while the kids are outside playing...but I did some analysis on the scores from yesterday's contests as reported here on the Brethren.


I used Jeffersonville, Ind; Storm Lake, Iowa; Frederick, MD; Williams, AZ; Davenport, Iowa; Hernando, MS; Belleville, Ill; Eurahlee, GA; Chandler, OK for this evaluation.
There is no weighting on the # of entries
I looked at placings for the GC and RGC in each category
I used average place in the four categories for GC and RGC at each contest
I then averaged the place in each category for GC and RGC
In ribs and pork the RGC actually placed better on average than the GC
It seems, at least in yesterday's contests anyway, that brisket is a big difference, but chicken may indeed be a bigger difference maker.
But the theory that brisket placings are, on average, higher than the other categories does hold true.


Category...................Avg. Scores
.............................. GC...........RGC
Chicken ................... 6.38...........13.00
Ribs..........................8.38...........6.88
Pork..........................9.00...........8.75
Brisket.......................2.88...........5.25


Location...........(#of entries) .......Avg. Placing
............................................GC.... ..........RGC
Jeffersonville, Ind.....(43)...........5.75...........9.75
Storm Lake, IA.........(40)...........9.25...........9.75
Frederick, MD..........(69)...........11.25.........11.50
Williams, AZ............(30)...........4.75...........6.50
Davenport, Iowa......(19)...........2.50...........5.00
Hernando, MS.........(39)...........5.25...........8.00
Belleville, Ill............(32)...........3.75...........6.50
Eurahlee, GA...........(35)...........3.50...........4.75
Chandler, OK...........(32)...........7.25...........6.00

Funtimebbq
06-17-2012, 01:53 PM
The overall placings are based on scores in each meat category, not where a team placed in those categories. If a contest has very tight scores for chicken but a wider score differentials for brisket, the weight of that brisket score will have a greater effect on the overall score.
For example, at a contest a week ago, Lotta Bull had two 180s but earned a RGC. Those 180s were not far enough ahead of the GC team to make up the differences in the other two categories.
Try your formula using scores and not placings.

Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 02:02 PM
The hypothesis is this...if you're going to win GC or RGC, you better get a high place in brisket.

The data here supports that theory.

The point I am making here is that some teams may score high in chicken, ribs, and/or pork, but tank it in brisket. Whereas the teams that win the contests may score OK in any or all of those three categories, but place very high in brisket.

sitnfat
06-17-2012, 02:27 PM
And I thought chicken was the one meat that got ya that GC if you scored high enough in it. It's not one meat or the other. Last year MoGreen and I talked about scores said ya know if we can get three top 10 calls we got a shot at winning. Well did that and havent been close looked at more scores decided we need three better than 170 did that with the 4th being 165 came in ninth overall. Bottom line you better nail all 4 meats.

bbqbrad
06-17-2012, 03:00 PM
The hypothesis is this...if you're going to win GC or RGC, you better get a high place in brisket.

The data here supports that theory.



I think you have a interesting hypothesis. But the data does not support the theory. The data says that GC and RGC have high brisket scores. Your hypothesis says that if I get a high brisket score and 30th in everything else, I could win GC or RGC.

I think what you're trying to say is "if you're going to win GC or RGC, a high brisket score will help your chances."

Sorry if I come off as a snot. Had to take a class for my Masters Degree on Research and Data. And yes, I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 04:14 PM
No, not a snot at all, but you need to go back and read what I said again. I said that if you want to win, you better do well in brisket. Didn't say anything about not needing to do well in anything else.

That in itself may sound like a no brainer, but the fact is that you can score well in pork or ribs, but if you don't score well in brisket you're toast. Then again, if you score 13th in ribs, you're probably ok cause there is a better chance that the person who wins ribs won't score well in brisket. That is just simply more often the case than it is not the case.

However, in your example, if it's the AR with 500 teams and you place 30th in everything else and 1st in brisket, you have a damn good chance of winning GC.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
06-17-2012, 05:26 PM
IMO Pork is the biggest gamble. If you have found a way to CONSISTENTLY win pork you have a great shot a GC. I think if there is one category that a new team can get a call in fairly quick its Pork. I think Pork is the easiest category to do well in and I think its also the hardest simply because of that. I find it to be the true roll of the dice class. My opinions may also reflect my bitterness over pork being our worst category. :)

Pappy Q
06-17-2012, 05:42 PM
IMO Pork is the biggest gamble. If you have found a way to CONSISTENTLY win pork you have a great shot a GC. I think if there is one category that a new team can get a call in fairly quick its Pork. I think Pork is the easiest category to do well in and I think its also the hardest simply because of that. I find it to be the true roll of the dice class. My opinions may also reflect my bitterness over pork being our worst category. :)

I agree, consistent high scoring pork is the hardest to achieve.

rxcellentq
06-17-2012, 05:57 PM
I can't tell you anything about winning a GC but I can tell you we have been draging our birsket behind us like anchor.
You cant win with three walks and a lead bristket

Alexa RnQ
06-17-2012, 07:27 PM
if you want to win, you better do well in brisket.

You cant win with three walks and a lead bristket

2010 Best Dam BBQ, Boulder City, NV: GC with 18th place brisket :twitch: :icon_blush: :becky:

fnbish
06-17-2012, 07:36 PM
No, not a snot at all, but you need to go back and read what I said again. I said that if you want to win, you better do well in brisket. Didn't say anything about not needing to do well in anything else.

That in itself may sound like a no brainer, but the fact is that you can score well in pork or ribs, but if you don't score well in brisket you're toast. Then again, if you score 13th in ribs, you're probably ok cause there is a better chance that the person who wins ribs won't score well in brisket. That is just simply more often the case than it is not the case.

However, in your example, if it's the AR with 500 teams and you place 30th in everything else and 1st in brisket, you have a damn good chance of winning GC.

Wait, I could be a complete idiot, but aren't all categories weighed the same? And if so then it doesn't matter what category you score highest in so much that you overall total for the 4 categories is the best. So you could be 30th in pork, brisket, and ribs then get a 1st place chicken and it would be the same as you just stated. Right?

It is just coincidental that brisket happens to be a higher finish vs another category.

nthole
06-17-2012, 08:32 PM
I think the reason the data seems to support this is only because the teams that can really cook brisket well, consistently, are the really good teams who can also cook everything else. That said, if you view it that way and practice nothing but brisket so that you will be great at brisket that doesn't mean your gonna win a GC, because cooking brisket does NOT translate to the other meats. Those teams got good at cooking brisket while ALSO cooking all the other meats.

Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 09:14 PM
It is just coincidental that brisket happens to be a higher finish vs another category.

One time is coincidence. Twice, maybe. Consistently, not always, but fairly consistently is not coincidence.

I'm not saying the other categories don't matter. I'm not saying brisket is weighted any heavier than others.

I'm only saying that the numbers show the top teams in overalls are generally going to be the top teams in brisket as well. More so in brisket than other categories.

Don't ignore the other categories. Do well in those, AND do very well in brisket. It's your best bet.

Take it for what it's worth.

82's BBQ
06-17-2012, 09:20 PM
If we would have won brisket at our last competition, we would have moved up 16 places. Compared to 11 places for a win in chicken/ribs or 7 places for pork. I will have to run some more numbers on my other competitions to see if it holds true for us. Does make for interesting thoughts though.

Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 09:21 PM
I think the reason the data seems to support this is only because the teams that can really cook brisket well, consistently, are the really good teams who can also cook everything else.

YES.

That said, if you view it that way and practice nothing but brisket so that you will be great at brisket that doesn't mean your gonna win a GC, because cooking brisket does NOT translate to the other meats.
I don't think I ever said that.

Those teams got good at cooking brisket while ALSO cooking all the other meats.

Just saying that the numbers show the teams that win GC or RGC are more consistently in the top 1-2-3 of the brisket category than any other category.

fnbish
06-17-2012, 10:03 PM
Just saying that the numbers show the teams that win GC or RGC are more consistently in the top 1-2-3 of the brisket category than any other category.

I do see what you are getting at, but "the numbers" you speak of.......are they just the 9 (if i counted right) competitions you posted? If so to prove your theory more fully I think statistics require a much larger sample size.

Outnumbered
06-17-2012, 10:10 PM
I do see what you are getting at, but "the numbers" you speak of.......are they just the 9 (if i counted right) competitions you posted? If so to prove your theory more fully I think statistics require a much larger sample size.

Agreed. I've observed this all spring, which prompted me pulling the data from this weekend.

The latest Bullsheet results is what made me lead me to this conclusion.

I will do this some more throughout the summer and will post what I find here.

Funtimebbq
06-18-2012, 12:13 AM
Taking the scores (not placings) of the GC and RGC from the 12 KCBS contest last weekend with results posted (2 contest still not posted), the largest point differences between the top two teams ocurred in chicken, pork, ribs and brisket, in that order.

Chicken avg. point difference 2.91665
Ribs avg. point difference 0.809467
Pork avg. point difference 1.428667
Brisket avg. point difference 0.857133

What does all this mean? To win, you need to do well in all categories but it looks like chicken is where the most points can be gained (at least last weekend, LOL).

Funtimebbq
06-18-2012, 12:41 AM
A few more facts from last weekends contests.
In both chicken and brisket, the RGC outpointed the GC in 4 of the 12 contests.
The RGC outpointed the GC at 5 contests in ribs and 7 contests in pork.
In one contest, the RGC finished ahead in 3 meats, chicken, ribs and brisket (over 17 points for the 3 meats) but was 24 points behind in pork. At that contest, pork was the great equalizer.

Fatback Joe
06-18-2012, 08:12 AM
I personally do think that you have consistency across the categories to have a good shot at the GC, but this thread really kind of made me chuckle since I think I fit right into this mold yesterday.


I was fortunate to win GC in New Hampshire with a 1st in Chicken and a 1st in Brisket. :biggrin1:

Tanked in ribs, but overcame it.

Jorge
06-18-2012, 08:56 AM
It's all about points and not calls or placement as has been pointed out.

What I believe you are seeing is that many of the better cooks, that are capable of winning, have learned to cook brisket well more consistently.

Interesting discussion though.

Podge
06-18-2012, 12:03 PM
IMO Pork is the biggest gamble. If you have found a way to CONSISTENTLY win pork you have a great shot a GC. I think if there is one category that a new team can get a call in fairly quick its Pork. I think Pork is the easiest category to do well in and I think its also the hardest simply because of that. I find it to be the true roll of the dice class. My opinions may also reflect my bitterness over pork being our worst category. :)

I think I could have cut-n-pasted this and used it as my own.. I hate pork !.. The issue with pork is that it's very easy to cook. You give a guy who has never cooked, a butt and a brisket, the pork will turn out a lot better than the brisket.

AZScott
06-18-2012, 12:28 PM
I think I could have cut-n-pasted this and used it as my own.. I hate pork !.. The issue with pork is that it's very easy to cook. You give a guy who has never cooked, a butt and a brisket, the pork will turn out a lot better than the brisket.

Amen. I hate pork. I've practiced it so many times but we just can't get consistent at it. We're all over the board in that category.

If you look at the KCBS standings right now, the top 25 teams in pork have the lowest points of any category which tells me it's more of a wild card than the others.

Market Hunter
06-18-2012, 03:33 PM
I am a danger to myself cooking brisket.

When I get a handle on it, I will be a danger to others.

IMO, 4 consistent scores = chance at winning GC. 3 outta 4 is not going to make the cut.

DawgPhan
06-18-2012, 03:49 PM
maybe a better way to look at it would be the difference between 1st place and 15th place in each category...I havent looked at the scores from any contests, but my gut tells me the spread is largest on brisket. There are also more unique teams with a chicken call than, there are brisket calls.