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Phubar
06-13-2012, 10:25 AM
Our Dutch Poobah has been invited to The Jack but he's not allowed to cook on a BGE because Primo is a sponsor at that event.
So let me get this straight...you can bring almost any type of cooker but you cannot bring a BGE?
Is this true?
I call it BS if this is true.

Big George's BBQ
06-13-2012, 10:26 AM
I have never cooked it but I do not see how that could be A lot of people use them re Dizzy Pig

Phubar
06-13-2012, 10:51 AM
Got some new info...if I understand correctly Primo has a contract with The Jack that the'll supply "foreigners" with Primo's.

E-mail conversation between The Jack and Dutch Poobah...

The Jack...


Please let me shed some light on this matter. Contractually based Primoís sponsorship level has given them product exclusivity within our event and they have chosen to sponsor the international portion. This is contractually binding and not open for discussion. If it was another type of cooker not in direct competition with Primo it might be open for consideration.

I can assure you if a BGE was cooked on in the past it was simply because we did not know about it. It would have to be addressed. This is why we request cooker information on applications for our international teams.

Thanks,
Debbie




Dutch Poobah...



Hello Debbie,

Thank you for your additional information.

I refer to my earlier mail to Wayne:



It will be good to think on the sincerity of the invitation to foreign teams.
This goes to the validity of this contest as a 'World Championship'.
As we found out today, the rules for foreign teams are different from the US teams.

Not that I think we had a snowball's chance in hell to win, but it would have been nice to enter the contest on a level playing field.


You wouldn't think of telling US teams to leave their grill at home and cook on something you provide.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Jeroen Hazebroek

deepsouth
06-13-2012, 12:31 PM
wtf?

caseydog
06-13-2012, 12:37 PM
So, do the foreign teams get to keep the Primos after the competition?

I wonder what would happen if they told Myron Mixon he can't use a BGE. :shock:

CD

landarc
06-13-2012, 12:40 PM
Well, that is unfortunate, but, if you pays the money, you get to call the tune. I suspect that it is exactly true, that most American teams would not want to leave their own pits at home for a competition.

It isn't exactly news that there are different rules for International versus domestic in terms of business though.

Phubar
06-13-2012, 12:41 PM
Our Dutch Poobah is putting much work in it.....maybe we need you Brethren to help us out.

caseydog
06-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Phu, you should post those emails in the Competition Forum. Over hear in the Woodpile, you are mostly going to get comments from us whack-a-doodles.

I'd like to see what the Competition guys think about this.

CD

lcbateman3
06-13-2012, 12:51 PM
Phu, you should post those emails in the Competition Forum. Over hear in the Woodpile, you are mostly going to get comments from us whack-a-doodles.



But we are whack-a-doodles of high integrity!

deguerre
06-13-2012, 12:51 PM
So, do the foreign teams get to keep the Primos after the competition?

I wonder what would happen if they told Myron Mixon he can't use a BGE. :shock:

CD

He'd just pull out his galvanized steel trash can.

Phu, you should post those emails in the Competition Forum. Over hear in the Woodpile, you are mostly going to get comments from us whack-a-doodles.

I'd like to see what the Competition guys think about this.

CD

See above.

deepsouth
06-13-2012, 12:54 PM
But we are whack-a-doodles of high integrity!



speak for yourself.

Jeroen
06-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Hi, I'm the guy Phubes is quoting.
He was maybe a little fast in publishing, we were discussing it on the moderator forum in Clogland, but I appreciate his friendship and loyalty.

Please keep it low-key until I get some more information, I gave them until tuesday.

If they don't respond favorably, I will release the Kraken.

nthole
06-13-2012, 12:58 PM
The question for me is did they tell you this before or after cashing your check. If before, it's their contest, however unfair they can do what they want. If after, b.s., you can't take a team's money and THEN tell them they can't use their own stuff and have to play by different rules.

Jeroen
06-13-2012, 01:04 PM
Well, It's an invitational, so they didn't actually take any money yet.

They just retracted the invitation and asked me to forward it to the next Dutch team on the list.

We did an official KCBS competition in April in Amsterdam.
We came fourth, after two Brits and an American.
Which was nice, because we never done this kind of contest before..

The first Dutch team got invited in the Jack.

landarc
06-13-2012, 01:04 PM
Clogland?

landarc
06-13-2012, 01:06 PM
Well, It's an invitational, so they didn't actually take any money yet.

They just retracted the invitation and asked me to forward it to the next Dutch team on the list.

We did an official KCBS competition in April in Amsterdam.
We came fourth, after two Brits and an American.
Which was nice, because we never done this kind of contest before..

The first Dutch team got invited in the Jack.

RELEASE the Kraken! Actually, can't say I am surprised. This is the problem with corporate sponsorships. Of course, the Jack is a corporate event at it's core. It isn't really about being fair, it is about promotion and Primo owns the event.

caseydog
06-13-2012, 01:10 PM
They just retracted the invitation and asked me to forward it to the next Dutch team on the list.

Did they retract the invitation because want to use your egg?

Are foreigners considered competitors, or just a sideshow?

CD

fingerlickin'
06-13-2012, 01:10 PM
Well, It's an invitational, so they didn't actually take any money yet.

They just retracted the invitation and asked me to forward it to the next Dutch team on the list.

We did an official KCBS competition in April in Amsterdam.
We came fourth, after two Brits and an American.
Which was nice, because we never done this kind of contest before..

The first Dutch team got invited in the Jack.


Those farkers, they retracted the invitation? They're not even going to give you a chance to come up with another cooker? Now that's BS.

Jeroen
06-13-2012, 01:11 PM
Clogland?
Our Dutch BBQforum. I'm Admin, Phubar is a Moderator, we have 1600 members.
It's the breeding ground for competition teams and first contact for a lot of people with real BBQ.

lcbateman3
06-13-2012, 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by Jeroen
Well, It's an invitational, so they didn't actually take any money yet.

They just retracted the invitation and asked me to forward it to the next Dutch team on the list.

Wait....

So they retracted the invitation?

And asked YOU to forward it to the next Dutch team?

That's farked up.

Jeroen
06-13-2012, 01:14 PM
Those farkers, they retracted the invitation? They're not even going to give you a chance to come up with another cooker? Now that's BS.
At first they gave me a choice of smokers if I didn't use the Egg, but I told them I couldn't abandon my team-sponsor of 6 years.
Later they doubled down and told me I could only use a Primo or get lost.

I got a little agitated after that and said some things, didn't help much.

landarc
06-13-2012, 01:16 PM
The folks from other countries are competitors. They have an equal chance to win, in theory. And yes, International teams have competed in the past and they compete under the same rules when it comes down to cooking and judging.

But, as Primo seems to have put a condition on their sponsorship, it is what it is. It does seem wrong, although, not really out of line with corporate think.

deepsouth
06-13-2012, 01:17 PM
Did they retract the invitation because want to use your egg?

Are foreigners considered competitors, or just a sideshow?

CD


sounds like the whole deal is a sideshow.

deguerre
06-13-2012, 01:17 PM
At first they gave me a choice of smokers if I didn't use the Egg, but I told them I couldn't abandon my team-sponsor of 6 years.
Later they doubled down and told me I could only use a Primo or get lost.

I got a little agitated after that and said some things, didn't help much.

Guess there's a reason they call it "Lynch"burg...

Jeroen
06-13-2012, 01:19 PM
Did they retract the invitation because want to use your egg?

Are foreigners considered competitors, or just a sideshow?

CD

Actually this all started because of some great people from the KCBS coming over here. They started training us to get a better result from International teams at the Jack.

Our official KCBS competition is called the Tony Stone Low&Slow and I was very honored to compete and win a prize.

landarc
06-13-2012, 01:20 PM
Never heard it called Clogland before :biggrin1:

This now comes down to do you forward the invite or not. It seems to me if the goal is to support and promote BBQ, then you forward the invite to the next best Dutch team. As wrong headed as it might seem, if you cannot adandon your sponsor, and they will not abandon their sponsor, then it seems it comes down to who is the bigger person.

Jeroen
06-13-2012, 01:31 PM
Never heard it called Clogland before :biggrin1:

This now comes down to do you forward the invite or not. It seems to me if the goal is to support and promote BBQ, then you forward the invite to the next best Dutch team. As wrong headed as it might seem, if you cannot adandon your sponsor, and they will not abandon their sponsor, then it seems it comes down to who is the bigger person.
I'll probably forward to my friend Harry's BBQguru team, they did quite well last year at the Jack and came in just after us in the Dutch KCBS.
Harry is the guy that got these KCBS people over to the Netherlands and he organizes the Tony Stone.
He's a little embarrassed by all of this and I don't want to hurt his event.

Alexa RnQ
06-13-2012, 01:53 PM
The rules for international teams are different from the get-go. Ask some of the domestic teams how many contests they had to win to get drawn, and how many bungs there were in their particular draw. I really feel for the guys from Missouri, Texas and a few other states!

Many domestic teams also have to modify obligations to their sponsors while at the Jack due to rules in place designed to protect the Jack's title sponsors. It's the same at many other large shows with big-money corporations that fund the contest.

deepsouth
06-13-2012, 01:55 PM
is the BGE the only cooker banned from the competition?

Phubar
06-13-2012, 02:04 PM
is the BGE the only cooker banned from the competition?


Good question,was thinking of that earlier today.
I hope the Jack isn't gonna ban other ceramics except Primo from their competition.

Jeroen
06-13-2012, 02:49 PM
@Diva: I get that the American teams go through a lot to get invited at the Jack. I think that to honestly call that show a "World Championship", you should give a level playing field to at least some teams from other countries.

Second: We can cook in galvanized garbage cans, open pits, UDS's and even Primo's, but we'll have to do it from over here, because our sponsor is paying most of our plane-tickets. Guess who the sponsor is? He's Green.
Catch 22.

landarc
06-13-2012, 03:19 PM
Well, first off, at least over here, we all accept that the term 'World' anyhting is almost always a misnomer. We have the World Series, NBA World Champiosnhip, World Famous whatever...in the end, often it ends up being only American and really United States teams that compete. And does anyone really beliece their small local BBQ shop is world famous?

That being said, the playing field is level in terms of the actual compeition, except that you are not allowed to use BGE cookers. If you look at this in another way, if we are going to tell companies that spend tens of thousands of dollars to sponsor BBQ competitions that they cannot hold some exclusivity in exchange for that sponsorship, then you also have to be prepared for smaller prizes, worse comp conditions, fewer comps etc...

I think it is terrible that Jeroen and his team have gotten caught up in this, and that he cannot compete because he is BGE sponsored. I wonder though, if BGE couldn't also say to Jeroen 'hey, this is a once in a lifetime chance, go, we'll pay, cook on a whatever and enjoy yourself'. Truly, I see no demons here, just two businesses, in a tough market sector, doing business as it should be done.

TTNuge
06-13-2012, 04:46 PM
Well, first off, at least over here, we all accept that the term 'World' anyhting is almost always a misnomer. We have the World Series, NBA World Champiosnhip, World Famous whatever...in the end, often it ends up being only American and really United States teams that compete. And does anyone really beliece their small local BBQ shop is world famous?

That being said, the playing field is level in terms of the actual compeition, except that you are not allowed to use BGE cookers. If you look at this in another way, if we are going to tell companies that spend tens of thousands of dollars to sponsor BBQ competitions that they cannot hold some exclusivity in exchange for that sponsorship, then you also have to be prepared for smaller prizes, worse comp conditions, fewer comps etc...

I think it is terrible that Jeroen and his team have gotten caught up in this, and that he cannot compete because he is BGE sponsored. I wonder though, if BGE couldn't also say to Jeroen 'hey, this is a once in a lifetime chance, go, we'll pay, cook on a whatever and enjoy yourself'. Truly, I see no demons here, just two businesses, in a tough market sector, doing business as it should be done.

So in that case it would be OK for Sam's club to only allow food bought at their stores to be cooked for the Sam's Club Contests? And if they sell a cheap Chargrill offset then it's ok for them to allow no other cookers other than the cooker they sell? Maybe next year Primo will sponsor the Jack again and won't allow any food to be cooked on anything other than a Primo, I guess that's OK too. Maybe KCBS can get Fruit of the Loom to sponsor some contest too, then you couldn't wear Hanes underwear to any contests, sounds fair.

There's a difference between denying a team to cook on their own cooker and denying certain types of advertising and logo displays at a contest and this is in my opinion going too far.

1FUNVET
06-13-2012, 05:01 PM
Perhaps Clogland is where the whack-a-doodles reside.

landarc
06-13-2012, 05:10 PM
TTNuge, indeed, although I do not see the end game as you do. Yes, I do see it that way. If a company chooses to make a call, as stupid as it might be, it is their money and their show. Now, if you don't like it, then walk away.

As it applies here, I think Jeroen has done just that. He does not wish to play by the rules set forth by Jack Daniels and Primo, he is choosing not to play their game. That is his choice. I admire that he is loyal to his sponsor and that he is making the same decision I would in fact make.

But, yes, if Sam's were to make a stupid rule like that, and it is their money and their name and they want to do that, then that is their provence. They will lose teams for that decision. It is literlally no different than if I, as an organizer put up $100,000 and said that for my comp, you get to play for the money, but, there will be no drinking or swearing. I have no interest in hearing anyones complaints, my money, my rules.

The opposite is what I have seen more often, such as at Bayhill in golf, where Ford was the sponsor and Tiger Woods won, there was Buick's label on the caddy's shirt, no edits, no blurring, Ford let it stand. A Buick sponsored palyer won, and Ford let it go. That would be a better way to go. But, I don't own Primo.

TTNuge
06-13-2012, 05:26 PM
Does anyone know, in the case of a KCBS sanctioned contest are there any KCBS rules/regulations that would prevent a contest or sponsor from limiting equipment used that would otherwise be allowed under current regulations? If not then I think this is something that KCBS may need to address before it does happen because once it starts I think it will be more and more frequent and it won't be limited only to smokers.

landarc
06-13-2012, 05:31 PM
I thought this was a good question, but, for some reason was in the Woodpile. This stems from a discussion about International teams have a limitation put on them, by a sponsor of the Jack, in terms of theor cooking equipment. I think it is a very valid question and should be here. I hope TTNuge doesn't mind my moving his question here.

Does anyone know, in the case of a KCBS sanctioned contest are there any KCBS rules/regulations that would prevent a contest or sponsor from limiting equipment used that would otherwise be allowed under current regulations? If not then I think this is something that KCBS may need to address before it does happen because once it starts I think it will be more and more frequent and it won't be limited only to smokers.

dmprantz
06-13-2012, 05:56 PM
Are international teams limmited to sponsored cookers, or is that all they get to use free? For some reason, I was under the impression that they could use whatever they want as long as they get it to and from the holler.

dmp

landarc
06-13-2012, 05:57 PM
Nope, according to the Dutch team that originally had the invite, no international teams would be allowed to use BGE as a condition by Primo.

On edit: that team has had it's invitation rescinded and been told to pass it on to another team.

Pyle's BBQ
06-13-2012, 06:08 PM
So this comes down to international teams have to cook like an IROC race while US teams can use anything from Indy cars to NASCAR models. The US teams get to have all the advertising and sponsorship at their sites while the international teams have to use what is given to them by the the sponsors.

Is this right? Landarc is right, it's their money. Is it the right thing to do and call your contest a "World Championship"? I guess that is what you have to figure out for yourself. If that is the way Jack Daniels want to run the show you have to play by their rules. It is a slippery slope that the Jack has put themselves on by allowing this. How much money will Primo pay to have everyone cook on their product and and not allow any other cooker at the contest? That is where this could lead.

dmprantz
06-13-2012, 06:08 PM
I misunderstood what you were saying. They can't use a BGE because of the sponsor, but they could use a Jambo if some one wanted to loan one to them? Is this signifigantly different from the Sam's Club banner restriction, or the Jack Daniels "all other whiskey" restriction? I know cookers are important, but some teams would be worse cooks without their liquor of choice...

dmp

landarc
06-13-2012, 06:11 PM
Well, I think the bigger point is, what if this were to become more common, where things such as meats, cookers, sauces and rubs etc..were to become subject to a sponsor choosing to ban them, and does KCBS have a policy.

Pyle's BBQ
06-13-2012, 06:16 PM
I posted this on the Woodpile thread.

Is this right? Landarc is right, it's their money. Is it the right thing to do and call your contest a "World Championship"? I guess that is what you have to figure out for yourself. If that is the way Jack Daniels want to run the show you have to play by their rules. It is a slippery slope that the Jack has put themselves on by allowing this. How much money will Primo pay to have everyone cook on their product and and not allow any other cooker at the contest? That is where this could lead.

Here is the link to the Woodpile thread (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135773).

caseydog
06-13-2012, 06:47 PM
Is this signifigantly different from the Sam's Club banner restriction, or the Jack Daniels "all other whiskey" restriction? I know cookers are important, but some teams would be worse cooks without their liquor of choice...

dmp

I think it is a lot different. A banner or brand of whiskey isn't the same as saying you can't use the cooker you use in every other competition.

I don't think the team has any problem not displaying a BGE banner, they just want to cook on their own cookers. It's one thing to say that you can't hang any BGE banners or promote the BGE brand, but it's another thing entirely to say that you can't use you BGE cookers to cook your entries.

CD

Shiz-Nit
06-13-2012, 06:56 PM
DUDE... That is crazy... I see if you have won on what ever pit by all means competite on that pit...
A New pit will be like a boat anchor...

But still I would adjust and kick butt if I were you all!!!!

TTNuge
06-13-2012, 06:58 PM
Not a problem moving/reposting it here as it probably belongs here anyways.

The Jack issue with International teams and Primo sponsorship is definitely at the root of this question but instead of being just another discussion about that specific situation I think the point here is to find out if there is an official KCBS stance on the issue and if there isn't does there need to be?

If Brand X, which competes with Brand Y wants to sponsor a KCBS sanctioned contest or series of contests would KCBS allow them to outlaw any Brand Y cookers at those event(s)? Doesn't matter if it's BPE/Primo or Lang/Jambo, etc etc etc.

dmprantz
06-13-2012, 08:03 PM
Let me ask this, because I'd love to get a definitive answer: Is The Jack a KCBS sanctioned competition? I've heard a lot of people say that it isn't because they have their own rules and do their own thing, but they do have KCBS reps and use KCBS software, and the event and its teams show up on the KCBS website. I think getting an answer to exactly how this competition is associated with the KCBS will help answer questions of what is and is not Kosher.

Red Valley BBQ
06-13-2012, 09:22 PM
Does anyone know, in the case of a KCBS sanctioned contest are there any KCBS rules/regulations that would prevent a contest or sponsor from limiting equipment used that would otherwise be allowed under current regulations? If not then I think this is something that KCBS may need to address before it does happen because once it starts I think it will be more and more frequent and it won't be limited only to smokers.

You have to remember that the Jack is NOT a KCBS contest. The KCBS allows the Jack to use thier rules and scoring and offers support for the contest. Hell, most of the judges aren't CBJs. I was told by a KCBS rep at last years Jack that the judges are comprised of local and national celebrities and people that have bought actual barrels of Jack Daniels. So I'm not sure that this responsibility lies with the KCBS.

While I don't agree with it, if the contest organizers have an agreement with a sponsor they need to honor it. After all, it is the sponsors that pay alot of the bills. If I come across a contest where there are limitations imposed by a sponsor, I have a choice to participate or not. Unfortunately, this is the case for what is considered a premier BBQ event, which makes that choice that much harder. I admire the fact that the Dutch team is standing up for their sponsor.

JD McGee
06-13-2012, 09:33 PM
Wow! This kinda bugs the hell outta me! I have cooked the Jack the last two years and have seen several BGE's out there. I do not recall any notification from them telling me I could not use one...anyone hear differently? :tsk:

TTNuge
06-13-2012, 09:46 PM
You have to remember that the Jack is NOT a KCBS contest. The KCBS allows the Jack to use thier rules and scoring and offers support for the contest. Hell, most of the judges aren't CBJs. I was told by a KCBS rep at last years Jack that the judges are comprised of local and national celebrities and people that have bought actual barrels of Jack Daniels. So I'm not sure that this responsibility lies with the KCBS.

While I don't agree with it, if the contest organizers have an agreement with a sponsor they need to honor it. After all, it is the sponsors that pay alot of the bills. If I come across a contest where there are limitations imposed by a sponsor, I have a choice to participate or not. Unfortunately, this is the case for what is considered a premier BBQ event, which makes that choice that much harder. I admire the fact that the Dutch team is standing up for their sponsor.

Agreed and understood, that's why I was asking in the event of a KCBS contest. There was actually a different thread started in the Comp section because even though this thread about the Jack brought it up, my question wasn't related and was KCBS specific.

dmprantz
06-13-2012, 10:29 PM
It looks like two threads have been combined into one. My question above was from when it was still a small thread in the comp section. To reiterate and restate my question, I've heard people, including reps, say that The Jack is not a KCBS sanctioned competition.....but it does have reps. It does use KCBS CBJs. It does show up on the KCBS website as a KCBS competition, and AFAIK, it uses KCBS scoring software and KCBS rules (with a few exceptions such as seven pieces and white/dark meat). I have wondered for some time if it truly is a KCBS competition or not, and I'd love to get a definitive answer, from B-F or KCBS. Probably going to take a BOD member posting here or a call to the office. If it's not a KCBS comp, why does it look so much like one? What is the relationship, and what can other comps do to get the same?

As for the CBJ story, I can't comment on every single judge who's ever participated in The Jack. What I can tell you is that I took my CBJ class there a few years ago the Friday of, and the room was filled with "celebrity judges" who were quickly getting their CBJ so that they could participate the next day. I don't know if that was all the judges or not, but there sure was a lot of attention devoted to judges being KCBS certified if it's not a KCBS sanctioned event. I wonder what B-F had to do to get their CBJ percentage specifically removed from the KCBS website.....

dmp

landarc
06-13-2012, 10:40 PM
JD, it is just for international teams. Restriction does no apply to American teams from what was posted before.

Plowboy
06-13-2012, 11:02 PM
Ah, the "Prestige" of the Jack...

landarc
06-13-2012, 11:07 PM
Hey Todd, why say you that? I am under the impression that the Jack is a prestigious competition. Are there those who disagree?

Bentley
06-13-2012, 11:49 PM
Ah, the "Prestige" of the Jack...


LMTO...Just what I was thinking, just saw this thread...Aint nothin but a hype thing...

CivilWarBBQ
06-14-2012, 12:18 AM
Hell, most of the judges aren't CBJs. I was told by a KCBS rep at last years Jack that the judges are comprised of local and national celebrities and people...

That's not entirely true.

The majority ot the judges are CBJs, though it is true that many are media reps and celebs that take the CBJ class in Lynchburg the day before the contest. So at least they have had education in the KCBS scoring system though no actual judging experience.

Dr_KY
06-14-2012, 01:40 AM
Dam it all sounds a bit crazy.
I can't compete at the Jack from here even though I have been in the country for 9 years. I would have to get a British passport then compete in KCBS comps here. Personally I'm having too much fun cooking to really worry about it but the British teams are eliminating by any means to get there.

Phubar
06-14-2012, 02:50 AM
Thanks for moving this topic to the right place and thanks for your reactions.
Just reread this whole thread and I think it's still a bit absurd.
I understand the sponsoring and rules but their are only a few international teams...why not let them cook on any kind of cooker as long as it's legal.
We're all trying to make this BBQ community grow...rules like these aren't very progressive.
The rule should be that if you're an international team and you're not bringing your own cooker you can get provided with a Primo.

Dr_KY
06-14-2012, 03:37 AM
I don't know if this rule is new or not but the last two years the people representing the UK have used whatever they wanted as a cooker within the rules. I know that none of the UK teams cook with ceramic regularly other than myself and Andy. In general the rule as it appears at the moment is restrictive but....

Jeroen
06-14-2012, 03:38 AM
As for the KCBS: They came over here to train us, to make the international teams perform better at the Jack.
They sanctioned this competition, were we placed for the Jack as best Dutch team.

I had all my initial contact with the KCBS about using our own grill.

They asked Primo to make an exception. After which Primo not only declined, they tried to force me to only use their grill.

This is common operating procedure with Primo, they tried something like this at the 2008 WBQA World Championship in Belgium and with other European competitions.
They market their equipment by trying to exclude others.
The only thing I would do with a Primo now involves a TV-guide and a roll of double layered toilet paper.

I've been talking to the people from the Jack directly since yesterday, as they tried to explain to me about contracts, not using too many big words.

Smoke'n Ice
06-14-2012, 07:38 AM
I have read this entire thread and would offer the following comments:
The Jack Daniels Invitational is just that, an invitational subject to their rules. They choose to use modified KCBS rules and procedures but the results do not count for TOY or any other KCBS honors.

They have chosen, in an effort to make it more international, to supply cookers, equipment, mentors and other items needed by foreign teams to lessen the financial burden and make the playing field more level. If you ask for a WSM, they will try to supply it, if you ask for an offset, they will try to supply it, if you ask for a ceramic cooker, they have entered into an agreement with a manufacturer with exclusive rights, to supply them.

Domestic teams are not given this consideration and, I would venture to say, that the financial burden on a team from Hawaii or Alaska would be greater than on one from England. Hell, I even believe it costs as much to get there from the Pacific Northwest. With that said, if a domestic team wants a cooker, they have to find it themselves and have it transported to the event. If a team sponsored by Jim Beam were to show up with their rig wrapped with the logos, they would be asked to cover it or leave. Those would be the only options.

Others have commented on Samís Club event. I can assure you, if you have a logo or marking that go against their, or MMA, sponsors or marks, you will be given the same options as above. I even believe it is in the fine print when you register at most contests.

You have to believe that it is the ďGOLDEN RULEĒ; he who has the gold, makes the rules. If you donít like them, donít play. JMHO

Mack Yarbrough
Smokeín Ice

TTNuge
06-14-2012, 08:05 AM
They have chosen, in an effort to make it more international, to supply cookers, equipment, mentors and other items needed by foreign teams to lessen the financial burden and make the playing field more level. If you ask for a WSM, they will try to supply it, if you ask for an offset, they will try to supply it, if you ask for a ceramic cooker, they have entered into an agreement with a manufacturer with exclusive rights, to supply them.

It's one thing to offer, it's another thin entirely when you force it on a team. To try and pawn this off as a good hearted offer is laughable.

It's also another thing to restrict advertising vs restricting equipment used. I have no issues with sponsors restricting banners and other ads but going further than that starts to affect the actual competition.

I still think the KCBS BoD needs to address this before it gets out of hand. There should be a formal stance whether or not they would ever allow something like this in a KCBS sanctioned event.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Phubar
06-14-2012, 08:05 AM
I have read this entire thread and would offer the following comments:
The Jack Daniels Invitational is just that, an invitational subject to their rules. They choose to use modified KCBS rules and procedures but the results do not count for TOY or any other KCBS honors.

They have chosen, in an effort to make it more international, to supply cookers, equipment, mentors and other items needed by foreign teams to lessen the financial burden and make the playing field more level. If you ask for a WSM, they will try to supply it, if you ask for an offset, they will try to supply it, if you ask for a ceramic cooker, they have entered into an agreement with a manufacturer with exclusive rights, to supply them.

Domestic teams are not given this consideration and, I would venture to say, that the financial burden on a team from Hawaii or Alaska would be greater than on one from England. Hell, I even believe it costs as much to get there from the Pacific Northwest. With that said, if a domestic team wants a cooker, they have to find it themselves and have it transported to the event. If a team sponsored by Jim Beam were to show up with their rig wrapped with the logos, they would be asked to cover it or leave. Those would be the only options.

Others have commented on Samís Club event. I can assure you, if you have a logo or marking that go against their, or MMA, sponsors or marks, you will be given the same options as above. I even believe it is in the fine print when you register at most contests.

You have to believe that it is the ďGOLDEN RULEĒ; he who has the gold, makes the rules. If you donít like them, donít play. JMHO

Mack Yarbrough
Smokeín Ice



Ok...but this is about a foreigner that can supply his OWN cookers...he doesn't need sponsored cookers from the event.
I think that makes a difference.

ique
06-14-2012, 08:07 AM
Ah, the "Prestige" of the Jack...

Todd never misses this opportunity. :blabla:

ique
06-14-2012, 08:07 AM
Ok...but this is about a foreigner that can supply his OWN cookers...he doesn't need sponsored cookers from the event.
I think that makes a difference.

Egg-actly. You want a loaner? It will be the sponsors equipment.

dmprantz
06-14-2012, 08:20 AM
I still think the KCBS BoD needs to address this before it gets out of hand. There should be a formal stance whether or not they would ever allow something like this in a KCBS sanctioned event.

Not to keep harping it, but I think the first step is to figure out what exactly the relationshp is between The Jack and The KCBS. If it's not a sanctioned contest, then The Jack isn't subject othe KCBS restrictions.

dmp

deepsouth
06-14-2012, 08:45 AM
Egg-actly. You want a loaner? It will be the sponsors equipment.


but he doesn't want a loaner.

:shrugs:

Smoke'n Ice
06-14-2012, 09:17 AM
There are special rules on selection and actual location of ALL foreign teams at the Jack, with the exception of Canada, that the Jack has developed over the years, as there are special rules for domestic teams. This is their contest, sponsored by them, conducted by them to their own rules. As an example, you must turn in both white and dark meat chicken; there is a special Fast Eddy rule for foreign teams; the selection criteria is open to change at their discretion.

If you donít want KCBS involved with this contest or other similar, because you donít like their rules, then petition the BOD. This is a unique situation, the same as the Royal Invitational, with a long term involvement like no other contest. Even the Samís Club series is different past the first level.

dmprantz
06-14-2012, 09:28 AM
there is a special Fast Eddy rule for foreign teams;

What's the special Fast Eddy rule for foreign teams?

dmp

DawgPhan
06-14-2012, 09:36 AM
What's the special Fast Eddy rule for foreign teams?

dmp


believe that it has to do with a US cook teaming with a foreign team. I think the story goes that Fast Eddy teamed up with an English team and they won the whole thing.

I dont see what the big deal is. The Jack can make it's own rules and if you want to go, then you play by those rules.

The Jack will still get their teams regardless of what rules they make.

Phubar
06-14-2012, 09:38 AM
There are special rules on selection and actual location of ALL foreign teams at the Jack, with the exception of Canada, that the Jack has developed over the years, as there are special rules for domestic teams. This is their contest, sponsored by them, conducted by them to their own rules. As an example, you must turn in both white and dark meat chicken; there is a special Fast Eddy rule for foreign teams; the selection criteria is open to change at their discretion.

If you don’t want KCBS involved with this contest or other similar, because you don’t like their rules, then petition the BOD. This is a unique situation, the same as the Royal Invitational, with a long term involvement like no other contest. Even the Sam’s Club series is different past the first level.


Sometimes it's good to follow the rules,sometimes it's better to do what's right.....Primo isn't gonna suffer if one or 2 foreign competitors bringing an Egg to the comp.

Jorge
06-14-2012, 09:44 AM
Not to keep harping it, but I think the first step is to figure out what exactly the relationshp is between The Jack and The KCBS. If it's not a sanctioned contest, then The Jack isn't subject othe KCBS restrictions.

dmp

It isn't sanctioned. KCBS provides a service. BF and the folks that run the contest can do whatever they want.

I'll add the following as well.... I've never seen any public campaign focused towards the Jack working out in the favor of the plaintiff. It's their contest, their rules, and to my knowledge they have a perfect batting average.

I'm speaking for myself, and not for KCBS or the board....

dmprantz
06-14-2012, 09:51 AM
believe that it has to do with a US cook teaming with a foreign team. I think the story goes that Fast Eddy teamed up with an English team and they won the whole thing.

I'm aware of that rule. I thought there was a special rule regarding FE and FEC cookers. NBD.

dmp

Smoke'n Ice
06-14-2012, 09:53 AM
It seems that the powers to be felt there was too much involvment with a foreign team one year. They now restrict the makeup of foreign teams, among other things.

dmprantz
06-14-2012, 09:55 AM
It isn't sanctioned. KCBS provides a service. BF and the folks that run the contest can do whatever they want.

Then as I implied above, the premise of having KCBS explain or create restrictions on which restrictions an organizer can place on its teams in a KCBS sanctioned contest is moot.

I'd love to know what the relationship is beyond "KCBS provides a service," but I have a hunch I won't find out. It looks like a duck and smells like a duck. Good thing we didn't step in it.

dmp

Smoke'n Ice
06-14-2012, 09:58 AM
Sometimes it's good to follow the rules,sometimes it's better to do what's right.....Primo isn't gonna suffer if one or 2 foreign competitors bringing an Egg to the comp.

I suspect it is a legal matter that is specified in a contract between BF and Primo, it has nothing what-so-ever to do with what is fair.

drbbq
06-14-2012, 09:59 AM
I wonder though, if BGE couldn't also say to Jeroen 'hey, this is a once in a lifetime chance, go, we'll pay, cook on a whatever and enjoy yourself'. Truly, I see no demons here, just two businesses, in a tough market sector, doing business as it should be done.


Speaking only for myself. If I were the sponsor part of my return would be pictures and video of my team cooking on my grill in Lynchburg. The trip has zero value if they're required to cook on my competitors grill.

Jeroen
06-14-2012, 11:07 AM
Thanks Ray, this is my thinking also.


I'll add the following as well.... I've never seen any public campaign focused towards the Jack working out in the favor of the plaintiff. It's their contest, their rules, and to my knowledge they have a perfect batting average.

Probably true and at first I wasn't planning to let it out this quickly without it being completely resolved.

But my friend here read my comments somewhere else, more private, and ran with it, because he was angry. Now it's been transferred from woodpile to competition and the cat's out of the bag.

It's very interesting to read all your comments and the majority seem to think that who pays the bill has last say in this, duly noted.

It will be very unlikely that we will be competing at the Jack, I don't feel very welcome anyway.

Let me then invite all of you to one of our European competitions.
Although they don't always go to plan either and we've had a lot of crap concerning untrained judges. :doh:

Stoke&Smoke
06-14-2012, 11:25 AM
I really don't have a dog in this fight, odds of me going to the Jack are likely slim to none, but I agree with Ray.

Yes, it's the Jack's comp, Primo is the sponsor of the foreign team portion, yada, yada. It seems to me that Primo's stance flies in the face of fair competition.

If Brinkman was the sponsor, would it be fair if I had to cook on a ECB instead of a WSM? If Bud Light was a sponsor, would I have to dump my Sierra Nevada Torpedo?...ok...I digress

From what I know of Primo cookers, they are every bit as good, or better, than a BGE, but a comp cook shouldn't be forced to cook on someone else's product, especially when their sponsor all along is a competitor of that product.

I call BS.

If I were the Jack organizers, I think I might be asking the BGE folks if they might want to sponsor the foreign portion instead of Primo, and would they agree to let competitors bring the grills/cookers of their choice! In the spirit of fairness

(ok rant over, I'll go sit down now)

TTNuge
06-14-2012, 12:01 PM
It isn't sanctioned. KCBS provides a service. BF and the folks that run the contest can do whatever they want.

I'll add the following as well.... I've never seen any public campaign focused towards the Jack working out in the favor of the plaintiff. It's their contest, their rules, and to my knowledge they have a perfect batting average.

I'm speaking for myself, and not for KCBS or the board....


Forgetting the situation with The Jack for a moment....

What happens when a sponsor or an event of a KCBS Sanctioned event wants to restrict a smoker/meat brand/widget/etc that would otherwise be legal under the KCBS rules? Is there an official stance from KCBS on that? Would they no longer be sanctioned, would KCBS allow it? Sam's Club is obviously the big elephant in the room but what if Kingsford wanted to sponsor a certain run of KCBS events and only allow their charcoal or something along those lines?

My concern is if it is not specifically disallowed in the KCBS By-Laws or whatever the heck they go by then sometime, somewhere down the road, something like this could happen. I'd much rather see an official stance on it now rather than later.

Oldchicago
06-14-2012, 12:04 PM
Who ever said life is fair?, It's their game, so they make the rules. If Primo is paying big bucks and if the Jack wants to sell out for the cash so be it. We always have a choice it's what we choose to do makes the difference. Also maybe the powers to be at Primo would not like to see a winning entry cooked on a BGE, and I can't really blame them considering what it's costing them. If I were head of Primo I would give every team a Primo cooker or cooker(s) ahead of the competition and all entries would be cooked on a Primo. Just saying and if anyone wants me to use their cooker I'll forward them our address. Hint Hint BGE

landarc
06-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Speaking only for myself. If I were the sponsor part of my return would be pictures and video of my team cooking on my grill in Lynchburg. The trip has zero value if they're required to cook on my competitors grill.

I get that Ray, I really do understand the nature of promotion and advertising. I also understand the importance of rewarding the people who help me promote my product in a marketspace. I don't even know if Jeroen approached them, for all I know, BGE might have done just what I am suggesting.

In my mind, the guys making the wrong headed decision are the folks who rescinded the invitation.

caseydog
06-14-2012, 12:15 PM
Forgetting the situation with The Jack for a moment....

What happens when a sponsor or an event of a KCBS Sanctioned event wants to restrict a smoker/meat brand/widget/etc that would otherwise be legal under the KCBS rules? Is there an official stance from KCBS on that? Would they no longer be sanctioned, would KCBS allow it? Sam's Club is obviously the big elephant in the room but what if Kingsford wanted to sponsor a certain run of KCBS events and only allow their charcoal or something along those lines?

My concern is if it is not specifically disallowed in the KCBS By-Laws or whatever the heck they go by then sometime, somewhere down the road, something like this could happen. I'd much rather see an official stance on it now rather than later.

Good thoughts. It seems to me that the sanctioning body should be setting the rules, not the sponsors. Sounds like Congress -- big corporations telling the rule-makers what rules to make. :rolleyes:

CD

Jorge
06-14-2012, 12:23 PM
Forgetting the situation with The Jack for a moment....

What happens when a sponsor or an event of a KCBS Sanctioned event wants to restrict a smoker/meat brand/widget/etc that would otherwise be legal under the KCBS rules? Is there an official stance from KCBS on that? Would they no longer be sanctioned, would KCBS allow it? Sam's Club is obviously the big elephant in the room but what if Kingsford wanted to sponsor a certain run of KCBS events and only allow their charcoal or something along those lines?

My concern is if it is not specifically disallowed in the KCBS By-Laws or whatever the heck they go by then sometime, somewhere down the road, something like this could happen. I'd much rather see an official stance on it now rather than later.

There is already something in place to deal with that. It's a different form of sanctioning, called Competitors Series. The organizer has the ability to make changes to existing rules, and submit them to the board. Once those changes have been reviewed and approved no further changes are allowed without board approval. The examples you used would not past muster for one of our normal contests, but would probably be fine for a Competitors Series event. I hope that addresses your concerns.

My opinion, and mine alone and not intended to represent KCBS or the board.....

landarc
06-14-2012, 12:30 PM
That was the answer I was looking for, that there is a means that this is controlled, at least by KCBS.

DawgPhan
06-14-2012, 01:33 PM
There is already something in place to deal with that. It's a different form of sanctioning, called Competitors Series. The organizer has the ability to make changes to existing rules, and submit them to the board. Once those changes have been reviewed and approved no further changes are allowed without board approval. The examples you used would not past muster for one of our normal contests, but would probably be fine for a Competitors Series event. I hope that addresses your concerns.

My opinion, and mine alone and not intended to represent KCBS or the board.....


I know you like to put that disclaimer on your posts, but when you say things like "our" contest it makes it hard to see that you are not speaking on behalf of KCBS. Is it the official stance of KCBS that an organizer can't make stricter rules than those that exist in the sanctioning, such as, limiting the cooking fuels even more than KCBS does?

Clearly allowing a disallowed fuel would require a special consideration but I would think that any rules that are actually stricter than the sanctioning body would be of little concern to KCBS.

Ford
06-14-2012, 02:07 PM
Jorge, great clarification. I remember when KCBS defined rules for competitor series. Lots of discussion. For everybody who doesn't know the history of competitor series LPQ was the first. Rule was gas as the heat source. Guy named trigg cooked on a CTO using gas and won a Harley. One of a select few to be able to say this btw. Since then there have been other series. If SAMs wanted to change more rules they could but would need bod approval. if somebody wanted to have a stick burner only contest the KCBS would probably sanction it as a competitor series contest. Same would apply if kingsford wanted only kingsford charcoal.

Invitationals are not sanctioned contests so they make their own rules. It's that simple. If you don't like the rules don't play. Trying to challenge them doesn't work and causes problems. And it's got nothing to do with the KCBS. I personally feel sorry for Jeroen but s$&@ happens.

As far as sponsors logos, many regular KCBS contests reserve the right to restrict signage from sponsors. That's outside the power of KCBS and not really what the original discussion was about and has been discussed in other threads here.

bmanMA
06-14-2012, 02:13 PM
I do find some humor in that only a "Traditional Sanctioned Contest" is eligible for the Jack.
But the Jack itself isn't?


(from here: http://www.kcbs.us/about_sanctioning.php)
Types of Sanctioning

Traditional Sanctioned Contest

This is the most popular type of contest KCBS sanctions. A Traditional Sanctioned Contest requires the teams to cook 4 meats (Chicken, Pork Ribs, Pork Butt, & Brisket). The cooking source at a Traditional Sanctioned Contest shall be of wood, wood pellets or charcoal. KCBS Rules and regulations apply. Traditional Sanctioned Contests are eligible for the American Royal and the Jack Daniels World Championship. In addition, all teams who participate in a Traditional Sanctioned Contest earn points towards the KCBS Team of the Year awards held each year at our annual banquet.


Competitors Series

For the Organizer who wants to have a unique barbeque experience a Competitor’s Series may be contest you are looking for. With a Competitors Series, the Organizer chooses the types of meats to be cooked, instead of the 4 standard meats used by KCBS. In addition, the Competitors Series contest allows for alternative heats sources. Traditional sanctioning fees and costs apply. The Competitors Series Contest is not eligible for the American Royal or the Jack Daniels World Championship. In addition, teams who participate in a Licensed Contest will not receive KCBS Team of the Year points.


Licensed Contest

A licensed contest is for those Organizers who are just getting their feet wet on the barbeque circuit. It is only offered to first time organizers and is the simplest of three types of contests offered by KCBS. The purpose of the Licensed Contest is to help an organizer move from a first year contest to a Traditional Sanctioned contest in the following year. It is designed to help an Organizer obtain the knowledge and success needed to have a successful Sanctioned event. With a Licensed Contest, the Organizer is required to use the KCBS rules and regulations. We will ask one of our reps to volunteer their time to work your contest, but you must provide their travel and expenses. The Licensed Contest is not eligible for the American Royal or the Jack Daniels World Championship. In addition, teams who participate in a Licensed Contest will not receive KCBS Team of the Year points. A Licensed Contest can only be obtained once and only for a first year contest.

afreemaniii
06-14-2012, 02:22 PM
This is interesting. I went back and read through the rules that were sent to me for the 2010 contest and they didn't clearly state that international teams MUST use the smokers provided, just that the Jack would provide them. I believe that Primo was involved that year as well.

8. U.S. teams must provide all necessary equipment and supplies; Jack Daniel’s will provide international teams with cookers and appropriate supplies.I figure they do that because of the cost associated with shipping a smoker from overseas. That cost would make it prohibitive for most foreign teams to bring their own. Perhaps the rules have been updated in the last couple years to expressly prohibit the use of any other cookers by international teams, but I can't say for sure.

In the end, I would say that cooking The Jack is an honor and an incredible experience. While the OP may not be familiar with Primo grills, I wouldn't let that requirement keep you from coming over. We have seen plenty of teams travel long distances to cook on borrowed equipment and be successful. Make the trip over and enjoy yourself. Like you said, you really don't expect to win it all, but stranger things have happened.

G$
06-14-2012, 02:31 PM
This perfectly demonstrates why I don't deal with the hassles that come along with securing well paying team sponsors and actually winning competitions.

That's my story.

Big Bears BBQ
06-14-2012, 02:55 PM
That might make for a great Throwdown....... Primo V BGE ......

I know on Sunday after the contest you can get good deals on the used Primos ..................

Vince RnQ
06-14-2012, 03:15 PM
This perfectly demonstrates why I don't deal with the hassles that come along with securing well paying team sponsors and actually winning competitions.

That's my story.

You're killin' me!

Castelli
06-14-2012, 03:28 PM
I think it is sad for Jeroen that he cannot use BGE because at the end it will give Primo a "bad" name on the "Belgium/Dutch" forum

landarc
06-14-2012, 03:31 PM
I think it is sad for Jeroen that he cannot use BGE because at the end it will give Primo a "bad" name on the "Belgium/Dutch" forum

And that will be bad as well, and wrong too. Primo is a good cooker from what I have heard and seen. There are some good aspects to their product. I think they are doing business as they see fit and in a model that is not at all unusual.

deguerre
06-14-2012, 03:35 PM
I find it ironic that the sole remaining USA made ceramic is being forced on the international teams...

Castelli
06-14-2012, 03:35 PM
I have PrimoXL , a BGE mine an a BroilKing Keg and they are all excellent cookers but each cooker has its specific behavior.

Now the point as I understand it is that they are only refusing ceramic cookers (including BGE). I was at the Jack last year and we used Memphis pellet grills (provided by our sponsor) and that was not an issue.

MyHeartagram
06-14-2012, 03:40 PM
I believe this is only about providing equipment to the overseas teams. I'm sure there are plenty of people here un the states that'll let them borrow an egg, wsm, or whatever else may be banned by Jack.

That's the best scenario, it keeps the sponsors happy, you get to help out a team coming from abroad, make a new friend, and have a few drinks in the lovely park in lynchburg.

Smoke'n Ice
06-14-2012, 05:05 PM
It boils down to Primo is the cermic cooker that ponied up the money and equipment for exclusive rights to supply the international teams at the Jack. If they, the international team, specify on their entry form that they will be cooking on a cermic cooker, then it must be a Primo, regardless if they bring it with them or Dr. BBQ were to loan them one of his BGEs. If Jamie were to do the same for stick burners, then his would be the only ones allowed. I would be there in line on Sunday to buy one by the way. Remember the golden rule and compete by it. JMHO

ps don't drink in the park, the rent-a-cops will nail you and try to throw you out, regardless of how old you and your guest are. JMHOAE

G$
06-14-2012, 06:25 PM
I believe this is only about providing equipment to the overseas teams. I'm sure there are plenty of people here un the states that'll let them borrow an egg, wsm, or whatever else may be banned by Jack.

That's the best scenario, it keeps the sponsors happy, you get to help out a team coming from abroad, make a new friend, and have a few drinks in the lovely park in lynchburg.

Except that is NOT what we are being told here. We are beig told they can not use an "egg", regardless of how they get it here.

CulinaireZaken
06-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Hello,

I'm Pieter, one of the members on Jeroens team.

We even suggested we use the eggs in a tent, out of sight. No BGE logos anywhere. It's just that Jeroen can't be seen working on any other ceramic as an BGE because he is the demonstration chef for BGE in the Netherlands, France and Belgium. It would cost him his job.

We are quite self-sufficient as an team, we don't need to borrow equipement to attend the comtest. We are just 3 blokes that enjoy attending BBQ-contests...

landarc
06-14-2012, 07:17 PM
Yes, this is just a corporate sponsor protecting their investment in the event. It does suck that Jeroen, Pieter and their team mate got caught up in this. But, it is how the rules are written. At the end of the day, The Jack is and always has been a corporate event, not just a BBQ event.

YankeeBBQ
06-14-2012, 07:34 PM
If I were the Jack organizers, I think I might be asking the BGE folks if they might want to sponsor the foreign portion instead of Primo, and would they agree to let competitors bring the grills/cookers of their choice! In the spirit of fairness

(ok rant over, I'll go sit down now)

BGE used to be involved with the Jack. I think they were involved with the I don't Jack about grilling event and possibly even supplied eggs for foreign teams.

YankeeBBQ
06-14-2012, 07:38 PM
Hello,


It's just that Jeroen can't be seen working on any other ceramic as an BGE because he is the demonstration chef for BGE in the Netherlands, France and Belgium.


The Plot thickens....:twitch:

Crash
06-15-2012, 05:47 AM
I think it sucks, but then again the Jack folks do make the rules.

I know I'm slow, but how does KCBS factor into the Jack rules?? Just asking?

Diva
06-15-2012, 08:16 AM
As I understand it, the only thing the foreign teams have to do is get over here. The Jack has their area set up with tents, tables, chairs...gives them their meat, cookers, wood, coal and lodging.

Primo is a major sponsor, they have a contract with the Jack that has stipulations for the use of the product that they bring for the foreign teams to use. People either play or they don't. Simple as that, really.

Candy Sue
06-15-2012, 09:02 AM
When you are at Jack's house, it's Jack's rules. This is an invitational contest and that means they can invite who they want and run it how they want, including not allowing certain equipment. I hate it for you but in your situation, I'd have to say "no" to Jack.

dmprantz
06-15-2012, 09:12 AM
I should have waited ten minutes before asking. Turns out my abillity to resist improved. Ne'er mind.

dmp

nmayeux
06-15-2012, 12:02 PM
If Primo is supplying the smokers and making it possible for teams to compete, then I don't understand the problem. As a "major" sponsor, I am assuming that they are helping to make the Jack possible, and for that we should be appreciative. Heck, at least they aren't making you cook on a stick burner!

Just my $.02...

Lake Dogs
06-15-2012, 01:01 PM
^^^ LOL. I was thinking "glad it's not sponsored by Brinkmann"

TTNuge
06-15-2012, 02:15 PM
If Primo is supplying the smokers and making it possible for teams to compete, then I don't understand the problem. As a "major" sponsor, I am assuming that they are helping to make the Jack possible, and for that we should be appreciative. Heck, at least they aren't making you cook on a stick burner!

Just my $.02...


Since it's an invitational and not a KCBS "sanctioned" event the whole thing is moot for the most part and you are correct, they are free to do what they want.

That said I still have a hard time with the fact that KCBS is "affiliated" and can be seen supporting an event that restricts fair competition that would otherwise be within the rules. Personally I don't like it but who am I?

Candy Sue
06-15-2012, 03:16 PM
That said I still have a hard time with the fact that KCBS is "affiliated" and can be seen supporting an event that restricts fair competition that would otherwise be within the rules. Personally I don't like it but who am I?

There are events that surpass the regular contest circuit where any team can pay their entry fee and compete. These events, Memphis in May, American Royal, Houston Livestock Rodeo and the Jack, have earned their prestige over time. Of the four, the Jack is the newest and the hardest to get into. You have to win twice. Win a GC then win in the bung lottery. Trust me, I know what it feels like to lose in the bung lottery! Fairness was nowhere in sight, at least in my mind.

2 of these events have their own rules, 2 of them follow KCBS guidelines. Honestly, in my opinion, having these 2 events modelled under KCBS rules is a statement to the fairness of the KCBS judging system.

landarc
06-15-2012, 03:24 PM
My understanding is that the rule you cited Candy Sue only applies to domestic teams. Jeroen said they go in by virtue of winning their Dutch KCBS sanctioned event, and that was all they needed to do to get the invite.

I think it could look bad to KCBS's attempts to spread their word on BBQ to Europe, what with the lack of clarity between it being, or not being, as the case is, a KCBS event. I hope Phubar, Jeroen and Pieter can see that there is a difference and that it is not a KCBS issue.

Smoke'n Ice
06-15-2012, 04:35 PM
Since it's an invitational and not a KCBS "sanctioned" event the whole thing is moot for the most part and you are correct, they are free to do what they want.

That said I still have a hard time with the fact that KCBS is "affiliated" and can be seen supporting an event that restricts fair competition that would otherwise be within the rules. Personally I don't like it but who am I?

You know, there was a KCBS competitor series, I believe the Jack falls under this definition, several years ago that was won by Johnny Trigg and he got a new HARLEY. The real kicker was, you had to use gas to cook with. It wasn't fair because my pellet cooker, which is normally legal in KCBS, doesn't have the required fitting and safety valve so I couldn't enter. Why would KCBS ever affiliate themselves with and support such a narrow field contest? :icon_wink

TTNuge
06-15-2012, 05:45 PM
You know, there was a KCBS competitor series, I believe the Jack falls under this definition, several years ago that was won by Johnny Trigg and he got a new HARLEY. The real kicker was, you had to use gas to cook with. It wasn't fair because my pellet cooker, which is normally legal in KCBS, doesn't have the required fitting and safety valve so I couldn't enter. Why would KCBS ever affiliate themselves with and support such a narrow field contest? :icon_wink


Still don't like it regardless of who won. Fine for a contest, but I don't think it is in KCBS's best interest to be involved. Just my opinion.

speers90
06-15-2012, 06:10 PM
Still don't like it regardless of who won. Fine for a contest, but I don't think it is in KCBS's best interest to be involved. Just my opinion.

Would you quit stirring up trouble, we have enough trouble getting everything turned in on time! :loco:

just kidding, I too think it is ridiculous that they can exclude a certain cooker and yes I understand the sponsor angle. Sooner or later they will pay enough money so that everyone has to use primo and then they can claim the winner used a primo

Definitely moves the jack to the bottom of the big contests in my eyes

Plowboy
06-19-2012, 01:03 PM
Hey Todd, why say you that? I am under the impression that the Jack is a prestigious competition. Are there those who disagree?

It absolutely is prestigious! No doubt about it. Every Jack overall winner, category winner, or anyone who's ever gotten a call there should be proud.

esselle
06-20-2012, 06:57 AM
My understanding is that the rule you cited Candy Sue only applies to domestic teams. Jeroen said they go in by virtue of winning their Dutch KCBS sanctioned event, and that was all they needed to do to get the invite.

Just to put things straight they were 4th behind 2 British teams and a U.S. team I beleive. They were the highest placed Dutch team. I have no beef with the team or it's members but I disagree with that particular qualifying criteria. Here in the U.K. we have to qualify, as U.S. teams do, by winning a qualifying comptition.
A few people on this thread also seem to be confused to the fact that the organisers of the Jack are 'forcing' international teams to use primo's. They aren't, you do have a choice, of many cookers, or you can bring your own, but obviously not one that is in direct competition with one of the major sponsors. I can understand the Dutch teams situation and feel for them, however maybe they should step back and see how lucky they are to be invited in the first place, and either take the place and cook on something else ie offset, wsm, etc or if they feel that strongly then you have no choice but not to go. I don't think the rules are going to be changed so that one team can use a bge.

Scottie
06-20-2012, 10:41 AM
Well said.

sunrise
06-20-2012, 06:39 PM
and they thought the refs in the NBA make some questionable calls......

CulinaireZaken
06-22-2012, 02:16 AM
@essele, you are not entirely right.

At first the primo statement was: not a BGE. When it was clear we are sponsored in Europe by the european distributor the statement turned into: primo or not attending...

esselle
06-25-2012, 09:32 AM
Ok I stand corrected but whenever the british team has attended in previous years it has been 'here are your primo's to use if you want along with whatever other smokers you wish to use'. Never heard of anyone being told 'use this or don't come'. But again if they say that to me I'll still be coming. If they tell me I have to cook on a bunsen burner I'll be coming.

Jorge
06-25-2012, 10:10 AM
Who won the contest in question?

esselle
06-25-2012, 11:55 AM
Who won the contest in question?

Bad Byron I think.

Jeroen
06-25-2012, 06:59 PM
Thank you all for your input.

Once again, it wasn't my intention to make this all so public before we were done talking to them.

We are not going to the Jack, this is final.

Good luck to those who are going to compete.

tasterner
06-25-2012, 07:07 PM
Sucks that it had to end up this way for you guys. If a team from the states can use an egg, any team should be able to. Seems pretty obvious to me...

Nordy
06-25-2012, 09:08 PM
The silly part isn't the fact that Primo is the only "provided" pit for international teams. The silly part is that the international team is not allowed to provide their own pit, from wherever they get them...

ie if they ask the Jack to provide pits... you get what the sponsors give... if you bring your own... well you bring your own...

The way I understand it is that international teams cannot even bring their own pits? If they could then the team could "buy" some eggs from their sponsor for $1 and then "sell them back" at the end of the contest or something...

I guess when you run the show you can make the rules...

Phubar
06-26-2012, 04:57 AM
Sucks that it had to end up this way for you guys. If a team from the states can use an egg, any team should be able to. Seems pretty obvious to me...

The silly part isn't the fact that Primo is the only "provided" pit for international teams. The silly part is that the international team is not allowed to provide their own pit, from wherever they get them...

ie if they ask the Jack to provide pits... you get what the sponsors give... if you bring your own... well you bring your own...

The way I understand it is that international teams cannot even bring their own pits? If they could then the team could "buy" some eggs from their sponsor for $1 and then "sell them back" at the end of the contest or something...

I guess when you run the show you can make the rules...


You can bring your own pit as a foreigner as long as it's not a BGE what I'm understanding from this thread...that's the silly part.
They're excluding only 1 type of BBQ from the comp which is one the most populair brands out there.
If Primo has a commercial warfare with BGE they shouldn't let the user/customers suffer because of it I think.

Too bad Jeroen but if I was in your shoes I would've done the same.
I wonder if another team is going...

nmayeux
06-26-2012, 10:07 AM
I agree that it sucks, but in my mind, competing at the Jack is something that personally I would treasure. You can still have BGE in your logos, banners, pictures, etc., and you are cooking on the same type of smoker. Also, you could turn this into a sales comparison for future reference as well... "Even though I won the Jack on a Primo, I prefer an BGE for these reasons...." I just hate the thought of passing up this once in a lifetime chance.

Phubar
06-26-2012, 10:31 AM
I agree that it sucks, but in my mind, competing at the Jack is something that personally I would treasure. You can still have BGE in your logos, banners, pictures, etc., and you are cooking on the same type of smoker. Also, you could turn this into a sales comparison for future reference as well... "Even though I won the Jack on a Primo, I prefer an BGE for these reasons...." I just hate the thought of passing up this once in a lifetime chance.


I understand but there are also people that say:"I feel honored to be invited to the Jack but if it's gonna go like this...I'll pass thank you."

Fornia
06-26-2012, 04:56 PM
I've browsed this thread a bit over the past week or so, sorry to hear of any inconvenience this will cause for folks from across the pond.

And it's certainly not my business....BUT, I'll ask it anyway.

Why in the world would BGE not pursue this sponsorship with The Jack? What do they represent, 80% of the ceramic cooker market? I'm scratching my head again on the dim witted lack of logic by that company.

Although.... They don't seem to like when their dealers actually sell Eggs, or market the product aggressively. They are also now promoting a 'lifestlye'. I guess that's what you get when you've lived high on the hog for many years, selling what equates to 2 terra cotta pots with a hinge.

And yes, I do own 2 Eggs.....but would make certain my 3rd ceramic would be a Grilldome, or Primo.

landarc
06-26-2012, 05:20 PM
Perhaps becauce not everyone believe the Jack is "all that" or perhaps because they do not see sponsorship as returning the investment. As you state, they already own the dominant portion of the sector, and there appears to be little sign that will change.

Jeroen
06-26-2012, 06:03 PM
I agree that it sucks, but in my mind, competing at the Jack is something that personally I would treasure. You can still have BGE in your logos, banners, pictures, etc., <snip>
No, you can't.
Not if you're a European team.

Fornia
06-26-2012, 07:43 PM
Perhaps becauce not everyone believe the Jack is "all that" or perhaps because they do not see sponsorship as returning the investment. As you state, they already own the dominant portion of the sector, and there appears to be little sign that will change.

Great point. I know very little about The Jack, just haven't read up on all it's real about.

But.....I'm hoping I'll get an opportunity to cook it someday. Whether we can or want to go would be handled then. Sure would like to be lucky enough.

drbbq
06-27-2012, 06:11 AM
Big Green Egg created that sponsorship position and was the sponsor for the first three years.

Scottie
06-27-2012, 07:02 AM
If you don't like THEIR rules don't go... Plain and simple. If you don't want to go. You know what? They will find a replacement. Feel bad for your team, but I just wish the American teams had this kind of option. I'd cook on a Brinkmanship if i was told I could go. Bring your gripes to the Jack. This forum isn't going to correct your problems, except fan them. I know how they work in Lynchburg and bending over to pressure is not one ofvthem. Unless you write letters to the CEO, Diversity Officer and the General Counsel. I heard that is a real effective way as well.

G$
06-27-2012, 11:05 AM
So maybe we can sum the thread up this way and close it:

1) The Jack can do whatever they want, as they make the rules for their own Invitational.
2) Perhaps they sometimes make a judgement error or poor decision.
3) :blah::blah::blah:

Jeroen
06-27-2012, 12:32 PM
Yes, please close this thread.

tasterner
06-27-2012, 02:56 PM
If you don't like THEIR rules don't go...


Didn't they already confirm this is exactly what they were doing??

deepsouth
06-27-2012, 03:16 PM
Didn't they already confirm this is exactly what they were doing??


they did.

Scottie
06-27-2012, 03:34 PM
Yeah.... 10 pages later......

deepsouth
06-27-2012, 04:02 PM
Yeah.... 10 pages later......

change number of posts per page and it's only on page 2.

:decision:

LGHT
06-27-2012, 04:07 PM
The only thing that is worth reading in this thread is that the guy knew he didn't have a snow balls chance in hell winning especially since he wanted to use his silly egg. Next thing you know he's going to be crying because he can't sous-vide his brisket.

Rich Parker
06-27-2012, 06:24 PM
The only thing that is worth reading in this thread is that the guy knew he didn't have a snow balls chance in hell winning especially since he wanted to use his silly egg. Next thing you know he's going to be crying because he can't sous-vide his brisket.

Brethren don't act like this. Wasn't this why you were given a 30 day ban the last time?

deepsouth
06-27-2012, 06:31 PM
The only thing that is worth reading in this thread is that the guy knew he didn't have a snow balls chance in hell winning especially since he wanted to use his silly egg. Next thing you know he's going to be crying because he can't sous-vide his brisket.


Wtf?

Stoke&Smoke
06-27-2012, 06:38 PM
What is up around here lately?

I can't believe how many folks are getting their undies in a bunch, cross topics!

Geez, its June...not February!

Tude seems to have migrated from woodpile to comp?

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