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woodhappens
06-12-2012, 04:06 PM
Good day all, I am a little upset about this last weekend. They had the Pro's on Saturday and Amatures on Sunday. I talked a friend into cooking the Amature competion which was his 1st one ever. He came out Saturday to see how the Pros do it and where to set up plus parking. He walked around to look at the other teams. We had an awsome time

Sunday there was alot of Amatures teams there cooking but, he told me there was 4 to 5 pro teams there as well cooking. This is the part that I am upset. Should a Pro team be able to cook Amature the same weekend they cook in the Pro events. I feel this is not fair. Someone trying to cook vs other Amatures not Pro's. The winners of the Amature contest was all Pro teams in the Amature event. This would make me upset if I entered an Amature event. I would want to compete against Amatures. If your a Pro team and only want to cook 2 meats you can do that as well in the pro event.

Am I wrong for thinking this or is this something that this is just the way it is. I love our sport and want it to grow and we should support our friends that want to cook in the Amature events. These our the next teams of the future. This is just how I feel and would love some feed back.

CarolinaQue
06-12-2012, 04:10 PM
What do the rules for the back yard division state as far as what the definition of a "pro" or "amatuer" team is? Are "pro" team specifically disqualified from the back yard division contest? Did any body inform the contest reps?

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
06-12-2012, 04:10 PM
It's a pretty lame thing to do but there are no rules against it.

The_Kapn
06-12-2012, 04:18 PM
Discussed here:

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124695&highlight=pro

To me, once ya cook Pro, leave the Amateur Div alone.
But, lots of different opinions and little, if any, guidance by the sanctioning bodies.

TIM

kenthanson
06-12-2012, 04:27 PM
I know some orgs have a rule that states once you are "head cook" once than you can't go am, but say the head cooks sits out and the rest of the team uses all of the equipment and everything but the head cook is gone than they would be allowed.

dmprantz
06-12-2012, 04:35 PM
I think that if an organizer has a sanctioned and unsantioned event in the same location, the same weekend, the same or different days, teams should not be allowed to cook both. Depends on the rules of the individual comp though.

dmp

Scottie
06-12-2012, 06:39 PM
This was a new organizer and I am sure that had a lot to do with it....

BBQchef33
06-12-2012, 06:56 PM
There's no officially defined delineation between pro and amateur. So it was up to the organizer to define it. If he did, and a team of seasoned veterans swooped in and stole the show, shame on them. If there were no rules defined, then its just a name to a contest. Pro to me means you make a living out of something, not a level of experience. Example, a team of 4 executive chefs from 5 star restaurants formed a BBQ team, never competed before, went out for the first time and placed... are they pro? Conversely a rookie team enters a "pro" contest and cleans up(know to happen), did they do wrong?

Nordy
06-12-2012, 09:49 PM
So the question remains... When does a team/cook become a "pro?"
First entry in a pro contest?
First GC in a pro contest?
First Call/Payout in a pro contest?
Whenever they want to say they are "professional"?
Very few of us make money on BBQ as a "profession"...

N

Rookie'48
06-12-2012, 09:50 PM
There's no officially defined delineation between pro and amateur. So it was up to the organizer to define it.

That's it in a nut shell, at least for KCBS comps. If the organizer doesn't put any limits on who can enter the backyard comps then it's open season, rightly or wrongly. Keep in mind that most of the time the backyard or amateur contests aren't sanctioned by anyone - the organizer has to set the rules.

fnbish
06-13-2012, 05:23 AM
It is somewhat hard to define what officially makes team Pro. Might be fairly easy to say if a team has competed for years and won many (or any) GC's that they shouldn't even do backyard, but if it isn't against the rules then nothing that can be done if the organizer didn't stipulate who could sign up for Amateur.

I have no qualms about saying to anyone that in my rookie year we started out with a few backyard then did a few Pro and bounced back to backyard a few time that year then back to Pro. Some of the events we entered after our first few backyard simply didn't have a "backyard" division so to get experience we signed up for whatever we could. Heck in our first Pro event after getting calls in our first 2 backyard and doing well there we set a goal that almost everyone does, which is don't finish dead ass last. Well we finished dead freaking ass last and it blew. So then we did a few more backyard and finished with a few more pro.

So now to answer your question. I don't think it is wrong for what you are thinking if those were seasoned pro teams. I would feel the same. But depending how "seasoned" is where the "fine line" dancing discussion begins and will probably never end as there isn't a set of rules, only opinions. Though some events certainly do stipulate if you have ever competed in a Pro event no matter if you tanked and finished last, then you can't do backyard. But if the organizer doesn't stipulate then it is fair (fair being relative term) game.

Nordy posed very good questions about what makes a team a "Pro". But there could be even more criteria for defining Pro than even those. It would be interesting to see those questions in a Poll on the forum and see what a consensus might turn up. I'm guessing either way this discussion will be around "till the cows come home". Oh I said it :icon_blush:.

Pigs on Fire
06-13-2012, 08:37 AM
I don't care who competes in the backyard contests. Just put the backyard teams all together at the contest.

DawgPhan
06-13-2012, 09:10 AM
just out the "pros" so that the rest of us can make sure and mock them next time we see them for bottom feeding. they didnt break anything but man law. They probably toted their checks home in their purse.

BBQchef33
06-13-2012, 09:15 AM
I keep seeing the term "pro event" thrown out in the posts, so with that, what made those events "pro" ?

I have never seen an event advertised as "pro only". Yet i have seen "shadetree" where it was specified "first time competitors" or "once a year" competitors only.

So if i arrive at a contest and its full of weekend warriors is it then decided its amateur?

If a so called pro contest fills up with all first year or rookie teams and no veterans, what is it?

If an unlabled event attracts the jack and ar winners does that make it a different contest all of a sudden(not to me)

Maybe it was regional with the NE having little to no choices but when i started out competing i was going against ray lampe and adam perry lang. A contest was a contest was a contest.

I dont think anyone who considers competing and making the investment is going in without the ability to win. They already have the skills and only need to learn timing. If they can get timing down the "any given day" will set in and a first year amateur team can walk away with the gold.


So i guess unless the organizer states first time teams or once a year competitors or something specific, theres no dog in the fight and the contest is wide open.



Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

DawgPhan
06-13-2012, 09:53 AM
I keep seeing the term "pro event" thrown out in the posts, so with that, what made those events "pro" ?

I have never seen an event advertised as "pro only". Yet i have seen "shadetree" where it was specified "first time competitors" or "once a year" competitors only.

So if i arrive at a contest and its full of weekend warriors is it then decided its amateur?

If a so called pro contest fills up with all first year or rookie teams and no veterans, what is it?

If an unlabled event attracts the jack and ar winners does that make it a different contest all of a sudden(not to me)

Maybe it was regional with the NE having little to no choices but when i started out competing i was going against ray lampe and adam perry lang. A contest was a contest was a contest.

I dont think anyone who considers competing and making the investment is going in without the ability to win. They already have the skills and only need to learn timing. If they can get timing down the "any given day" will set in and a first year amateur team can walk away with the gold.


So i guess unless the organizer states first time teams or once a year competitors or something specific, theres no dog in the fight and the contest is wide open.



Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


most contests with both a sanctioned KCBS contest and an unsanctioned contest generally refer to the sanctioned as the "pro" event and the unsanctioned as the "backyard" or "amateur" event.

For example

http://www.hoghappenin.org/

which refers to "Pro" and "tailgate" events.

The tailgate entry fee is a fraction of the pro event and the prizes are much smaller. They even go so far as give free entry into next year's "pro" event to the winner of the tailgate contest.

Having a single unsanctioned event without saying who can enter is one thing. Having 2 contests on the same weekend where there are clear divisions is another.

I dont think that anyone broke any rules, I just want to know who they are so I can make fun of them.

crehr
06-13-2012, 11:33 AM
I was at both events. I cooked for the Pro's event. My sister cooked the Amateurs using my stuff using her own techniques. She also cooked at Westmont in Amateurs. I was there to support her and drink some beer. I spend most of my time at the Kid's Que helping my son with his stuff. My wife was all so asked to help out with judging the kid's and Amateurs. I agree that Pro's shouldn't do both comps.

HawgNationBBQ
06-13-2012, 11:40 AM
I think that if an organizer has a sanctioned and unsantioned event in the same location, the same weekend, the same or different days, teams should not be allowed to cook both. Depends on the rules of the individual comp though.

dmp

I agree.

early mornin' smokin'
06-13-2012, 12:44 PM
Define pro? kinda hard to. I cook every weekend for a local butcher and compete twice a year. Does that make me a pro? If I was competing at a contest and the likes of Myron, or Lily or any other big name pro was there, I'd be happy to go up against them just to see how I faired. Conversely, there's been plenty of comps where there's first year teams. They beat the "pros" quite often(beginners luck). Unless KCBS is going to create a "PRO" designation after you've won a gc, competed in X amount of comps. I see no reason why the pros can't cook with the little guys. If I wanted to do a "backyard" comp after 4 years of competing twice a year to just hone my skills and see how I did, am I going to be forbidden?

Pigs on Fire
06-13-2012, 01:04 PM
The last contest we were at which had a Backyard division there was a "backyard" team there with a huge cooksite.... MBN-style war wagon, complete with serving counters, huge hog cooker, fold-up awnings, etc. They also had at least one flat screen TV and 20? folding camp chairs embroidered with their team name. I think they probably had 100 friends and family come by over the 30 hour period.

They won the backyard contest.

Wow. They showed up with $20k worth of stuff and took a $500 check home.

CivilWarBBQ
06-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Wow. They showed up with $20k worth of stuff and took a $500 check home.

Now that competition BBQ is getting a lot more press, you'll see more of this sort of thing. Truth is, sponsors don't give a flip about prize money (since they don't get any of it) - they want maximum exposure to the public per dollar spent. A sponsor looks at the cost to enter vs the number of eyeballs captured; sanctioning, classification and prizes are meaningless.

I've pretty much given up on trying to separate "Pro" and "Backyard" cooks. My current approach is to have a single contest and let the teams make their own decisions. It's not hard to structure a contest so that most "Pros" will pass it by if you put limitations on site size, amenities and prize money. Bottom feeders will always exist though. All you can do is depend on peer pressure to weed them out. You could reserve the right to refuse any team, but that opens a whole new can of worms regarding impartiality...

TooSaucedToPork
06-13-2012, 03:59 PM
There is no "Pro" as anyone with the entry fee can enter a BBQ Contest.

Now that being said, if you get invited to an invitational contest (Jack, Royal by invite, MBN Finals) Then I say you are a "PRO" and have no business screwing a small time team out of a trophy.

It's all Karma...it will come back to bite you, at least I hope it does.

My opinion is:

IF YOU COOK WITH THE BIG BOYS, YOU STAY WITH THE BIG BOYS. If you lend your equipment to a backyarder, make yourself scarce, that way you have not helped them in any way, your conscience is clear.

It always amazes me what some people will do for a trophy, and how their fun comes from hurting the small teams...cause thats what they are doing. If you are experienced in that sanctioning organization, stay out of the backyard division and let the small guys win their first trophy. Let them catch the BBQ Bug. Don't steal it from them just to get another piece of hardware for the office.

Winning this way you won't be remembered positively. If you want to be remembered, offer your help to them. Mentor them, taste their food, honestly judge their food if asked, and be a hero, not a bully...

Thank you, my rant is over.

BBQchef33
06-13-2012, 11:23 PM
most contests with both a sanctioned KCBS contest and an unsanctioned contest generally refer to the sanctioned as the "pro" event and the unsanctioned as the "backyard" or "amateur" event.

For example

http://www.hoghappenin.org/

which refers to "Pro" and "tailgate" events.

The tailgate entry fee is a fraction of the pro event and the prizes are much smaller. They even go so far as give free entry into next year's "pro" event to the winner of the tailgate contest.

Having a single unsanctioned event without saying who can enter is one thing. Having 2 contests on the same weekend where there are clear divisions is another.

I dont think that anyone broke any rules, I just want to know who they are so I can make fun of them.


but the question still exists.... who can enter the tailgate, who can not? If an experienced team is only available the day of the tailgate contest and willing to forgo the pro contest.... do they enter?

there would need to be some criteria to stop that.

CBQ
06-13-2012, 11:38 PM
If an unlabled event attracts the jack and ar winners ...

If the organizer throws in a cooler of PBR and GJ I bet it would :becky:


To me, a "pro" team is one that has cooked in a sanctioned event from a known sanctioning body (KCBS, MBN, FBA, PNWBA, etc.)

It's not always a slam dunk for the pro teams. Last year in Eliot, ME many of the "pro" teams entered the people's choice for pulled pork, but it was the "not on the circuit" teams that got most of the calls. The next day's KCBS event it was back to the usual suspects (except for some kind of fluke in chicken.)

Q-Dat
06-13-2012, 11:47 PM
As has been said, there is no rule against it, but I think its kinda snaky.

I also don't care for the cooks who stay in the backyard ranks looooong after they have become experts. IMHO the backyard/patio/amateur divisions are intended for local or semi local cooks who think they make good BBQ and want to see where they stack up.

Dr_KY
06-14-2012, 02:10 AM
See a fair bit of bbq teams competing and believe me there are not any pro teams here as the hobie just isn't as massive to where rankings are even a considered thing.
I do whatever comps I can get to because I love what I do but there is a point in my opinion where a competitive team should pull back the reins as in no need for banners , WSM's, Cambros, etc at a chili competition where the average Joe is showing up with a gas camp stove and a single pot to have a bit of fun. I think it just makes ya look like a tool.

Crash
06-14-2012, 05:13 AM
I'm glad to see this discussion is back again this year.

Printed rules distributed to all competitors should pretty much eliminate this type of controversy. From what another person said, it sounds like this was a first time organizer. No idea if that's the case, but if it is you can bet (hope) that the same issue probably won't arise again next year.

Our team dealt with similar situations when competing in AZ. We competed in a few IBCA comps and Backyard Comps on the same day. The only difference was that the Backyard Comp contained different categories than the IBCA competition. For example, the Main 4 for IBCA and then some combo of Salsa, Kabobs, Burgers, Chicken, Chili, Carne Asada, etc. for the Backyard Comp.

Personally, I felt that we were at a slight disadvantage for having set ourselves up with 8 turn-ins on the half hour, staggered between IBCA and Backyard. Still, we did it and have no shame in how we finished in 2 out of the 3 BY events. We heard a few snide comments, but were totally OK with it.

I guess the true, defining discussion should not only be about Pro vs. Amateur, but also on the categories that both different events have. Our team never would have entered a BY/Amateur event on the same day/weekend if the same categories were applied to both comps. I guess we just wouldn't feel right about it.

Definitions and rules......it's the wave of the future.

The_Kapn
06-14-2012, 07:24 AM
This whole discussion revolves around one word----"Professional".

The obvious question is:

"If professional is the wrong word, what is the proper or acceptable name for the division" ???

TIM

dmprantz
06-14-2012, 07:41 AM
I always try to call them "Sanctioned" and "Unsanctioned." Is there another set of words which more clearly describe them? Around here there are a lot of comps which call themselves "Backyard" but are really just "unsanctioned" and welcome any teams who regularly compete in KCBS sanctioned comps. The real question is whether or not you can cook both in the same weekend.

dmp

DawgPhan
06-14-2012, 08:16 AM
but the question still exists.... who can enter the tailgate, who can not? If an experienced team is only available the day of the tailgate contest and willing to forgo the pro contest.... do they enter?

there would need to be some criteria to stop that.


in the example given, I believe both events are held at the same time.

But I dont really care about who can enter which one. Like I said I doubt any rules were broken, people are free to enter any contest they want without breaking the rules.

I dont care about stopping teams from entering backyard contests, I just want to know who they are so that I can properly mock them if ever I see them.

Coz
06-14-2012, 04:30 PM
Here in Wisconsin I have never seen a contest advertised as Pro or backyard but there is an unsanctioned contest or two that has said your not welcome to be here. Just put it in the rules up front please . Not wait till a few of your club members see your inquiring about what rules are being used etc. If one team that competes regularly in sanctioned contests isnt welcomed then others who do shouldnt be either just because they are your club members who need some sort of championship title to pedal their wares.

motoeric
06-14-2012, 09:47 PM
Just out of curiosity, did you know the teams that competed in both were pros because you were familiar with them outside of that comp or did you assume that they were pros because they did both events?

What if they were a new team that decided that as long as they were going they might as well compete in both?

Eric

moontz
06-15-2012, 09:31 PM
The winners of the Amature contest was all Pro teams in the Amature event.

Noticing you are from chicago, and assuming you are talking about the St. Charles comp, this is not true. Amateur teams won the amateur contest. I guarannnnteee :mrgreen: