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View Full Version : KCBS CBJ Class in FL Oct. 17


chad
09-13-2005, 04:50 PM
There will be a KCBS CBJ class in Plant City, FL, on Oct. 17th.

That's a Monday and it will run from 6pm-10pm.

They are holding it at the Plant City PD so maybe they know something about the judges?? The instructor will be Ed (BBQ Challenge) Roith.

Fees are $40 for KCBS members and $65 for non-members - this includes a one year membership for the new guys.

Please make your check out to the Plant City Chamber of Commerce and mail it the chamber at their address, Plant City Chamber of Commerce P. O. Box CC Plant City, Florida 33564.

Info or RSVP to Amy Nizamoff at amy@plantcity.org or Mark Poppell at Mark@poppellinsurance.com

I'm sending my stuff in tomorrow. FBA and KCBS - can MIM certification be far behind? :D

rbinms33
09-13-2005, 06:59 PM
can MIM certification be far behind?


Good luck with that one, Dave. I've tried for the past year and half now. Very few and far between.

chad
09-13-2005, 09:55 PM
:D I didn't say anytime soon!! There are lots of MIM events in GA and even N. FL - so all I have to do is coordinate it!!

qman
09-14-2005, 07:12 AM
:D I didn't say anytime soon!! There are lots of MIM events in GA and even N. FL - so all I have to do is coordinate it!!

The Winter Park "Pig in The Park" event here in Orlando used to be a MIM sanctioned contest. I assume it still is.

chad
09-14-2005, 07:28 AM
The Winter Park "Pig in The Park" event here in Orlando used to be a MIM sanctioned contest. I assume it still is.


It's not listed on the calendar for 2005 - but then things do change year-to-year with some events.

Marianna, FL, did an inaugural MIM event this year.

I heard an interesting "worst nightmare" story about a MIM event:

The competitor is all set and ready for his "on site" and the judge shows up. She listens to his pitch and he offers his ribs - she looks at them and does nothing - he asks what the problem is and her answer was (I'm not kidding) "I don't eat ribs in public" - as you can imagine he was shocked and asked why - seems they are "messy" and she NEVER eats ribs in public.

He went and found a rep - made his case and got a new judge - well the guy listens to the pitch - looks at the ribs and says "they are really beautiful ribs, but I'm vegetarian".

I'm thinking the competitor was thinking "Just shoot me!" Two pant-load judges in a row!! :D You would think the judges would be vetted just a bit better!

qman
09-14-2005, 07:33 AM
Damn, Dave, thats horrible. I hope these were not certified judges? How could a veggie-terror-ian get through a judging class?
Makes you wonder. :shock:

chad
09-14-2005, 04:23 PM
He was a local photo journalist - somehow he got picked to be one of the "judges" and maybe was given a short course - I don't know those details.

I do know the story is TRUE! :D Edit: forgot to mention that this was AT Memphis in May - not a qualifier!

I've heard other judges say "I don't really like (fill in a meat or flavor component) but I LOVE judging". Can somebody 'splain that to me? :mrgreen:

It does facinate me: the number of judges that DO NOT cook bbq either at home or competition (though they are required to cook with a team one time during the year - especially if they want to ever make Master Judge) and so really don't understand what they are eating or what they are looking for - they have what "they like" stuck in their heads and that's how they judge.

Fortunately most are NOT like that - but enough are to make my 'rhoids itch! :twisted:

The_Kapn
09-14-2005, 04:37 PM
I know the source of that quote from Chad.
I give the source an "extremely high reliablity" rating. :lol:

I do feel that within the FBA and KCBS that they are taking some steps to get the Judges trained better and to get some of the "I demand sauce (or whatever)" out of it.

But, dealing with humans--it is gonna take forever and will never be perfect :twisted:

This situation is componded by the fact that our "sport" is expanding much more rapidly than the "pool" of judges can support it.
Especially if Judges remain volunteers who pay their own way.
So, we get "celebrity" and "quickie course" judges.
We, the competetors, pay for that :twisted:

I just hope for improvement and--most importantly--some objectivity to creep in--someday. :lol:

TIM

rbinms33
09-14-2005, 04:49 PM
Celebrity judges get ribs with french dressing on them.

Another thing that I heard about the actual MIM contest was that you had to pay a fee to judge. Anybody know this for a fact?

chad
09-14-2005, 05:25 PM
Let me rephrase:

I've seen a judge's application that had a $125 fee for being a "rib judge" - off hand I don't remember the event.

The_Kapn
09-24-2005, 05:14 PM
I'm "in" for the class on the 17th!

YAAAHOOOOOO http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

TIM

wsm
09-24-2005, 09:03 PM
I feel so funny reading this thread - I just got home from "cooking" with the MoKan Meatheads at Hermann. Mostly I am a KCBS judge who Q's in his backyard and judges.

Guy told me that you should "cook" with a team early in your judging "career" and brother Wayne was nice enough to let me mess around on his site and drink his Margaritas.

I also had the privelege of meeting brother Spicewine and bunch of others.

I didn't work as hard as the REAL team members but when I got home I thought I would collapse.

The_Kapn
09-24-2005, 09:12 PM
I didn't work as hard as the REAL team members but when I got home I thought I would collapse.

Welcome to the reality of competeting http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Really glad you got a chance to go out and do it.
And thanks to Wayne for the opportuinity http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Makes us all better and stronger and better--Judges and teams alike.

TIM

chad
10-17-2005, 10:29 AM
By 10pm this evening I will add KCBS CBJ to my resume'.:biggrin:

Ed Roith is doing the class and I'm pretty sure it's full up. Now I'll have even more reason to go to other parts of the country for BBQ competitions!:biggrin:

FL has a few KCBS events: Lakeland, Plant City, and Key Largo are the ones I know about - hopefully, a few more will be added.

Judging is a great way to stay involved when $$$ or time keep you from competing!

In the last 12 months Tim and I competed at Mulberry, FL (FBA); Plant City, FL (KCBS); Sebring, FL (FBA); Mobile, AL (KCBS); and Dillard, GA (KCBS). Additionally, Tim traveled north to cook with Ray, Dr. BBQ.

I judged at Minneola, FL (FBA-State Championship); Wachula, FL (FBA); Winter Haven, FL (FBA); Lake Alfred, FL (FBA); and Mulberry, FL (FBA).

Tim also judged at Minneola and he did a road trip to Barnesvile, GA for an FBA event.

Throw in the cook school weekend I attended back in July and we've had a pretty full year on the BBQ trail.

Judging is a way to pay back something to the organizations that make all this stuff happen. I really encourage you guys to get certified and help make a difference in our "sport". :biggrin: Hopefully, the days of competing without a full panel of certified judges is coming to an end.

Southern Brethren may not be able, financially, to cook at very many events in 2006 but I'll definately be hitting the road to judge.:razz:

wsm
10-17-2005, 11:02 AM
Chad - tell us what you think of the judgng class

thanks

parrothead
10-17-2005, 12:04 PM
Chad - tell us what you think of the judgng class

thanks


Oh, he will. Trust me.

brdbbq
10-17-2005, 12:13 PM
Oh, he will. Trust me.

With O2 Tanks in Tow.

chad
10-17-2005, 01:32 PM
Geez! You guys just never let up. :biggrin:

I've been judging for about a year and don't expect to gain a lot of "insight".

I'm just getting another association's certification. The difference between FBA and KCBS in minimal - scoring range varies a bit and FBA doesn't require that you take an oath before you crap all over the teams!! :twisted:

Meeting Ed Roith should be interesting.

smokincracker
10-18-2005, 08:46 AM
OK Iíll bite!

Class was OK!!! The food they gave us to judge was very poor.
I took the class to help my cooking and possibly learn some insight as to what they teach the judge to look for. It was all by the book with no real mystery.
I expect I will learn more from my peers by actually judging a contest.

chad
10-18-2005, 09:02 AM
I agree with Jimmy - the class was OK. We had about 30 people and of that, I think 8 were competitors. Ed Roith was the instructor and was ably assisted by a second Master Judge and a couple of reps.

The food was real....average! :biggrin: No effort was made to glaze, sauce, nothing! But, the guys that prepared it gave it a good effort and had enough for the 90 boxes.

The guys prepping the boxes got hammered - these were NOT representative of what is normally seen at an event - skimpy portions, really weird "presentation", etc. But, the critiques at the tables and the group critiques helped define some of the "issues".

If all the KCBS instructors are pounding basics like Ed was then KCBS is coming around with a crop of more recent judges that will at least make the effort to be objective.

We'll never see true objectivity but balance is being improved and KCBS is tracking low-ball and high-ball judges. It's definately a start.

Like Jimmy implied - if you take the class and don't go out and judge you really won't get a true picture of what the judges are expecting.

The city did a good job of bringing in the press - the regional cable news outlet was there (Anne called me while I was on the road home that the story was already on the air) along with a photog and writer for the St. Pete Times. Hopefully it'll be in the Thursday "Food" section.

It was fun - now I'm dual certified. :eek:

wsm
10-18-2005, 11:08 AM
When I took the class (spring 05) they seemed to concentrate on the rules - what is / is not allowed. Boxes were DQed for numerous reasons - but in the short time that I have been judging I have never seen a box DQed.

I had hoped for instruction in how to judge taste, texture and appearance but those are a biotch to teach and it is easy to teach that you must have 6 visible pieces.

What were the BASICS that the Florida class stessed?

I am looking forward to attending a CBJ class from Ed Roith in Jan 06.

smokincracker
10-18-2005, 11:29 AM
Giving Dr. Death the Squeeze

chad
10-18-2005, 01:31 PM
Yes the basics were stressed - Ed gave a few tips. Things about skin/no skin, preference vs. what you're really there to do, filling out the forms, etc. All this is BASIC because, normally, if you're taking the class you've never judged before. A lot of new judges haven't ever read the KCBS (or other association's) rules.

I've seen and been involved with a few DQs - wrong meat turned in, bloody chicken (one time valid and another marginal but the rep upheld it), parted out sliced pork (think about it - you can't have bark or smoke ring around the "loin" part of the butt if it's cooked legally!), I know of a couple of "less than 6 portions"...it happens and often to really good teams.

Bill-Chicago
10-18-2005, 01:53 PM
Greg and I had a really good instructor (Mike Lake) who not only went over the rules, but tried to put a subjective basis for texture. His wife was out doing all the boxes so some presentations where great, and some intentionally used wrong lettuce to test us.

Brisket, pulling apart, slight tug then break away. Greg did that, and had a perfect tug, I did that, and it was like a rubber band. Just refused to break.

On ribs, he was trying to set up a framework in our minds about 1 bite, slight tug, leaving a bite mark and a white bone. Some where perfect, some the whole rib came out.

They showed a chicken breast in the chicken category. Presentation was dead on, but score all over based on dryness. Set this up against moist thigh and drummies.

They also tried to set up a framework for the very wide open taste portion. They did this by have some sauces hotter, some little vinegary, some very sauced, and some very salty.

So we had the rules and the "basics" where all about setting up a framework to base a judges decision.

wsm
10-18-2005, 02:28 PM
Sounds like a good class, but I have a small problem with the brisket pull test - since meat can be presented chopped, pulled, chunked or sliced, you cannot be sure that you will get a slice, especially not a slice the thickness of a pencil - but the pull test is a good way to start

I have not seen any DQ'ed boxes, but I have heard about them - less than 6 SEPERATE ribs (not completely cut), or foreign mattter (lettuce core) in the box.

The CBJ class that I took was also taught by Mike Lake, with Theresa assisting Smokin' Ts on the boxes - I don't remember some of the stuff that you mention.

Jeff_in_KC
10-18-2005, 03:03 PM
Sounds like a great class, Bill... I'm hoping the St. Louis class is as good.


Greg and I had a really good instructor (Mike Lake) who not only went over the rules, but tried to put a subjective basis for texture. His wife was out doing all the boxes so some presentations where great, and some intentionally used wrong lettuce to test us.

Brisket, pulling apart, slight tug then break away. Greg did that, and had a perfect tug, I did that, and it was like a rubber band. Just refused to break.

On ribs, he was trying to set up a framework in our minds about 1 bite, slight tug, leaving a bite mark and a white bone. Some where perfect, some the whole rib came out.

They showed a chicken breast in the chicken category. Presentation was dead on, but score all over based on dryness. Set this up against moist thigh and drummies.

They also tried to set up a framework for the very wide open taste portion. They did this by have some sauces hotter, some little vinegary, some very sauced, and some very salty.

So we had the rules and the "basics" where all about setting up a framework to base a judges decision.

smokincracker
10-18-2005, 03:04 PM
WSM

Dr. Death emphasized the fact that chopped or pulled brisket indicated potentially overcooked meat. He went on to explain that thicker cuts of meat would also indicate that the product was overcooked. Then some discussion followed concerning a potential rule that would force competitors to turn in a slice no thicker than a pencil. Death said that he him-self has lobbied KCBS to implement that rule with no success. (Thankfully) He said it would make it easier for the judges to identify properly cooked brisket. He explained that a good way to determine if a meat is overcooked or has no texture. Hold the bite of meat on the roof of your mouth with your tongue and if the meat dissolves it is overcooked or has no TEXTURE. I am anxious to see how long it will take brisket to actually dissolve in your mouth no mater how over cooked it is? Gives new meaning to melt in your mouth good!!! Huh

wsm
10-18-2005, 03:08 PM
Well, I gotta agree about "mouthfeel" but I don't think that chunks (burnt ends) pulled or thick slices necessarily mean overcooked.

Put it in your mouth and check the texture.

But if you have suitable slices, the pull test is a good way to START

chad
10-18-2005, 03:48 PM
Rich,

As a competitor - believe me - if a box of brisket comes around with thick or very thin slices or no slices at all - it's overcooked.

Thick slices are an indication that "perhaps" the meat won't hold together in a pencil thick slice (that's the IBCA-Texas rule) and very thin slices indicated that "perhaps" the meat is still tough.

Now, you as the judge use whatever method is comfortable for you to do the initial check.

Pulling the ends is a "standard" test.

I always use it and then bite and taste the brisket. I also check out any bark or pulled meat in the box, too. Usually (not always), the burnt ends or pulled/chopped meat will have more flavor than the slices - I use every element they present to arrive at a fair scoring.

Bill-Chicago
10-19-2005, 08:58 PM
The CBJ class that I took was also taught by Mike Lake, with Theresa assisting Smokin' Ts on the boxes - I don't remember some of the stuff that you mention.

I'm not surprised. We might have received two totally different classes.

The audience definitely made the class what it was. Mike seemed to be going by a general outline, but he's done it so many times, that he just followed a "game plan". Plenty of times, he would get interupted by some very eager people and he would delve into the small things thats make something what it is.

We had one lady that just wouldn't shut up. But some of her comments brought up different subjects of discussion. I recall about 3.5-4 hours of rules and discussion, followed by 2.5 hours of tasting.

Best part, he went around the room and had people explain high or low scores. It was interesting to see visual "hands up" that the majority of the time, you were in the "area" of others on certain boxes (all 7 tables got the same "entry" box, so we could compare as a group)

Most of us nailed the salty, the hot, the sauced, etc.

I would actually take it again, with another instructor, just to get a more rounded perspective.