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EMTTLC
05-29-2012, 12:14 PM
KCBS rule #10. Pork ribs: Ribs shall include the bone. Country style ribs are prohibited.............I have a friend who got a DQ for placing chunks of pulled rib meat in his turn in container. He had seven bones placed on a bed of parsley with the chunks around the edge. If a box is presented with legal garnish, no sculpted meat, no pooling of sauce, and enough samples for each judge, is it not a legal entry. I've judged chicken entries with thighs placed on a bed of pulled chicken and brisket entries with shredded meat under the slices, and never considered a DQ; nor have any judges at my tables. What am I missing here?:confused::confused::confused:

HawgNationBBQ
05-29-2012, 12:20 PM
Personally, I think it is common sense that the meat is expected to be attached to the bone.

ique
05-29-2012, 12:22 PM
KCBS rule #10. Pork ribs: Ribs shall include the bone. Country style ribs are prohibited.............I have a friend who got a DQ for placing chunks of pulled rib meat in his turn in container. He had seven bones placed on a bed of parsley with the chunks around the edge. If a box is presented with legal garnish, no sculpted meat, no pooling of sauce, and enough samples for each judge, is it not a legal entry. I've judged chicken entries with thighs placed on a bed of pulled chicken and brisket entries with shredded meat under the slices, and never considered a DQ; nor have any judges at my tables. What am I missing here?:confused::confused::confused:

Even if it was ruled legal your friend would have ended up in about the same place - the bottom of the standings for ribs.

EMTTLC
05-29-2012, 12:27 PM
Just for clarity: the "bones" all had meat attached to them. It was your typical turn in with chunks around the edge.

Ford
05-29-2012, 12:39 PM
Rule says all meat in the box must be attached to the rib bones. Stops people from adding chunks of non rib meat.

Check rule 16

bigabyte
05-29-2012, 12:40 PM
It says, "ribs shall include the bone". Clearly there was some meat in the box that had no bone. Sounds like a DQ to me.

SirPorkaLot
05-29-2012, 12:48 PM
"Pulled rib meat"

Really?

Yea that would be a DQ in my book too.

bbq.tom
05-29-2012, 12:49 PM
"Ribs shall be turned in bone-in."

ehymes
05-29-2012, 01:00 PM
As Table Captain, When opening that box, I would immediately call the rep over. For the catogory, it would be tantamount to sculpted (or something like that)
Ed

bover
05-29-2012, 01:08 PM
I would be incredibly disappointed if this didn't get a DQ. Clearly a rule violation.

Alexa RnQ
05-29-2012, 01:12 PM
Just for clarity: the "bones" all had meat attached to them. It was your typical turn in with chunks around the edge.
While all the bones had meat on them, the rule says that all the meat must have bones IN it. DQ.

CivilWarBBQ
05-29-2012, 01:21 PM
A Rep advisory went out on this a couple years back when this first appeared. For a while it was even explicitly mentioned at cook's meetings. Neither chicken or brisket mention bones in their specification.

Bottom line is what he did was a DQ. Live and learn...

EMTTLC
05-29-2012, 02:08 PM
Consensus is... DQ, Tough lesson on interpretation of the rules. He had a 3rd in chicken and a 3rd in pork. Rule 16 says bone-in, I felt like he met that requirement with the seven bones. I see the err in my thinking. Mental note to self; Learn from others mistakes.

Alexa RnQ
05-29-2012, 02:30 PM
And if there is any shadow of doubt, ask the rep. They've seen everything, more or less, and are always glad to guide.

INmitch
05-29-2012, 02:35 PM
Your friend is not the first to learn the hard way this year. A rep told me he had to DQ one like that earlier this year.

Tennessee Jed
05-29-2012, 02:39 PM
OK... for clarity sake I'm the one this happened to this weekend at the Horsin' Around Competition in Young Harris, Ga. For the last year and a half I have been placing chopped meat in the bottom of my turn in boxes ALONG WITH my entry... NOT AS my entry. Whether it was pork, brisket, chicken or ribs... each box included chopped meat from the entry AS A GARNISH ONLY in the bottom. I placed the appropriate meat in the box on top of the chopped. I am also a judge so I understand the rules. In my rib box this weekend I included 7 spare ribs ON THE BONE placed on a bed of chopped rib meat. Again as a judge I understand that everything in the box is fair game to be sampled. I read the rule as it was stated "Ribs shall include bone"... and bone in ribs were turned in. They just happened to be placed on a bed of chopped rib meat. The rep was very apologetic about the whole incident and I realize that the judge's interpretation of the rules are final. It was just a heartbreaker to get calls for 3rd in both chicken & pork and then get a DQ in ribs over something I have literally done for a year and a half... including the National BBQ Cup last year in Cumming Ga.

bbq.tom
05-29-2012, 02:48 PM
I realize that the judge's interpretation of the rules are final.

Actually, it is NOT the judge's interpretation, but rather the Contest Rep's interpretation that is final. Just clarifying.

I was judging in Cornelia, GA a month or two ago and one rib box was DQ'ed for having a "foreign object" in the rib box because of the meat in the box that was not on a bone. It may get past some judges/TCs/& Contest Reps, but it may not. Why take the chance.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-29-2012, 02:49 PM
OK... for clarity sake I'm the one this happened to this weekend at the Horsin' Around Competition in Young Harris, Ga. For the last year and a half I have been placing chopped meat in the bottom of my turn in boxes ALONG WITH my entry... NOT AS my entry. Whether it was pork, brisket, chicken or ribs... each box included chopped meat from the entry AS A GARNISH ONLY in the bottom. I placed the appropriate meat in the box on top of the chopped. I am also a judge so I understand the rules. In my rib box this weekend I included 7 spare ribs ON THE BONE placed on a bed of chopped rib meat. Again as a judge I understand that everything in the box is fair game to be sampled. I read the rule as it was stated "Ribs shall include bone"... and bone in ribs were turned in. They just happened to be placed on a bed of chopped rib meat. The rep was very apologetic about the whole incident and I realize that the judge's interpretation of the rules are final. It was just a heartbreaker to get calls for 3rd in both chicken & pork and then get a DQ in ribs over something I have literally done for a year and a half... including the National BBQ Cup last year in Cumming Ga.

I was always understanding that if there is meat in the box it is to be sampled, so the "garnish only" thing doesnt work, kinda like " no one could see the foil until the meat was removed from the box so its leagle. If I was at that table I would call the rep over as well.

Pigs on Fire
05-29-2012, 02:53 PM
Tough lesson to learn.

A great way to prevent these tough lessons is to simply talk it over with the Contest Rep. I hated to see the rep toting THREE boxes after rib turn-ins, especially coming towards our site with them. Two of the three were right at us with your friend's being the one with pulled. The people next to us only put 5 bones in the box.

Tennessee Jed
05-29-2012, 03:07 PM
I am in no way arguing the fact that I was right or wrong... at least not here. Nor was I hiding behind my comment regarding "garnish only". I am just clarifying the facts of the event before they get distorted by assumptions. I graciously accept their call as correct and hope it becomes one of those "remember when that happened" stories for future competitions. I was IN NO WAY trying to skirt a rule or trying to get by with something I knew or thought to be illegal. I just simply did not understand the rule as it was presented. My understanding now is that all other catagories may be presented on a bed of chopped meat... just not ribs. The reps explaination of ribs specifically was that "there was no way to ensure that it was actually rib meat unless it was on the bone". Again... I accept that and will know better next time.

Ford
05-29-2012, 03:27 PM
I am in no way arguing the fact that I was right or wrong... at least not here. Nor was I hiding behind my comment regarding "garnish only". I am just clarifying the facts of the event before they get distorted by assumptions. I graciously accept their call as correct and hope it becomes one of those "remember when that happened" stories for future competitions. I was IN NO WAY trying to skirt a rule or trying to get by with something I knew or thought to be illegal. I just simply did not understand the rule as it was presented. My understanding now is that all other catagories may be presented on a bed of chopped meat... just not ribs. The reps explaination of ribs specifically was that "there was no way to ensure that it was actually rib meat unless it was on the bone". Again... I accept that and will know better next time.
Thanks for jumping in. The rep was correct in explaining why the rule was changed. The same applies in FBA. Only meat that we can't use a bed to anchor the presentation meat. Can only use ribs with bone so we get creative using small good ribs to prop up the layers the judges see. Sometimes a judge grabs one of those bottom ribs so they have to be good. Can't talk to other sanctioning bodies.

Funtimebbq
05-29-2012, 03:41 PM
Tough lesson to learn.

A great way to prevent these tough lessons is to simply talk it over with the Contest Rep. I hated to see the rep toting THREE boxes after rib turn-ins, especially coming towards our site with them. Two of the three were right at us with your friend's being the one with pulled. The people next to us only put 5 bones in the box.

I sure hope the box with 5 bones was judged and not completely DQ'd. As I understand, 5 judges would score for taste and tenderness and all 6 judges would score a 1 for appearance. Only the judge who did not get a piece would score 1 across the board.

Benny

INmitch
05-29-2012, 03:46 PM
I sure hope the box with 5 bones was judged and not completely DQ'd. As I understand, 5 judges would score for taste and tenderness and all 6 judges would score a 1 for appearance. Only the judge who did not get a piece would score 1 across the board.

Benny
Nope. DQ.

Parts_Guy
05-29-2012, 04:05 PM
I sure hope the box with 5 bones was judged and not completely DQ'd. As I understand, 5 judges would score for taste and tenderness and all 6 judges would score a 1 for appearance. Only the judge who did not get a piece would score 1 across the board.

Benny

When I took the Judging class put on by Mike Lake, I am sure that is how he explained it also. It should not have been a DQ.

Stoke&Smoke
05-29-2012, 04:23 PM
When I took the Judging class put on by Mike Lake, I am sure that is how he explained it also. It should not have been a DQ.
Bingo - Mike explained it correctly. Not that that's a surprise!:rolleyes:

dmprantz
05-29-2012, 04:46 PM
The current rule reads:

16) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions of meat in an approved container....Ribs shall be turned in bone-in....If there is not enough meat for each judge to sample, the shorted judge(s) will score a one (1) on all criteria, and the judges having samples will change the Appearance score to one(1).

If a team got DQed by all judges for five bones, sounds like a bad call, but I wasn't there.

dmp

CaptTable
05-29-2012, 06:15 PM
I was one of the Reps in question and the team with 5 ribs were NOT DQ'd. It was scored as mentioned above. 1 judge with 1's across the board and 5 judges with 1's for appearance and then judged accordingly.

As for the rib meat, yes the team was DQ'd, again for the reason already stated. If this same type of entry was used in Cumming, GA, last year or anywhere else for that matter, then all I can say is that the BBQ Gods were smiling on the team and the judges and table captains did not do their jobs properly. And, yes, I was one of the reps in Cumming and it was not brought forward by anyone.

This is the problem that I approached with the judges in Young Harris after the rib category. Apparently, people (judges and TC's) aren't paying as much attention to the entries as they should. They have to remember that looking for illegal entries is a vital part of their judging process. Many are omitting this part as proven by this being missed at prior contests.

To correct an earlier post, these were the only two problem boxes in the rib category.

I commend Uncultured Swine for the way they handled the decison of which I had the unpleasant task of informing them.

All you cook teams please remember, just because something "got by" does not mean it is acceptable. When trying something new, please, please talk to your rep first.

Phillip

Gadragonfly
05-29-2012, 07:49 PM
This is the problem that I approached with the judges in Young Harris after the rib category. Apparently, people (judges and TC's) aren't paying as much attention to the entries as they should. They have to remember that looking for illegal entries is a vital part of their judging process. Many are omitting this part as proven by this being missed at prior contests.
Phillip

As one of the judges at Young Harris, I can guarantee that Phillip got his point across clearly. As someone near me said "Phillip is pissed off!" Now I know why.

Bunny
05-29-2012, 11:15 PM
When I was the chair of the Contest Rep committee is when this issue first came up and it was discussed by the BOD. Someone had put pulled meat underneath the ribs with bones in them. It was decided it would be treated as a foreign object because you may not be able to determine if it was pulled pork or rib meat. Just don't do it anymore.

The guy with 5 ribs bones and one without should have gotten a 1 on appearance from all judges. (IF there wasn't any pulled rib meat used as a garnish). And the ones who got the rib with a bone would continue to judge taste and tenderness. The one who didn't get a bone would give it a 1 across the board.

Bunny

CaptTable
05-30-2012, 11:40 AM
I was . . . . . . . at the time. Because, in the past, a nice team had been led to believe they were okay with an illegal entry! Someone else's mistake, yet they paid the price. That's wrong!

ModelMaker
05-30-2012, 02:41 PM
As Table Captain, When opening that box, I would immediately call the rep over. For the catogory, it would be tantamount to sculpted (or something like that)
Ed

As the table captain you must remain neutral and take no action until all boxes have been shown to all judges for the presentation score. Then if anyone has an objection to a certain box the rep should be notified.
Ed

dmprantz
05-30-2012, 02:46 PM
As the table captain you must remain neutral and take no action until all boxes have been shown to all judges for the presentation score. Then if anyone has an objection to a certain box the rep should be notified.

As I recall learning, each judge must score the box as if there were no infraction, and then ask notify the rep. I think this may be why things slip through the cracks: It sounds very counter-intuitive to me to at the same time notice an infraction, but still try to score as if you don't see it. To look at the garnish to ensure that it is legal, but not look at it to factor into the score. etc. It's just easier to ignore infractions with those rules.

dmp

dmprantz
05-30-2012, 02:50 PM
When I was the chair of the Contest Rep committee is when this issue first came up and it was discussed by the BOD. Someone had put pulled meat underneath the ribs with bones in them. It was decided it would be treated as a foreign object because you may not be able to determine if it was pulled pork or rib meat.

I mean no disrespect, but I've been thinking about this, and it really sounds like a cop out to me. By that logic, how can you know that sliced pork isn't from the loin and pulled beef isn't from the chuck? I'm not arguing the rule nor the DQ in this case, but to say that bonless ribs arent allowed because they can't be sure it's not some other cut just doesn't hold water on the consistency or logic scale to me....

dmp

Outnumbered
05-30-2012, 08:40 PM
Cop out? Pretty simple that you have to turn in ribs with the bone and the bone only. I have never gone to a restaurant or a backyard and asked for boneless ribs.

Hell, even Ronald McD tries to make the impression that the McRib has bones in it.

dmprantz
05-30-2012, 10:08 PM
Cop out? Pretty simple that you have to turn in ribs with the bone and the bone only.

I think you misread my post. I specifically said that I do not argue the rule. What I also said is that the stated reason behind it is illogical based on the other categories. If the stated reason were "We think ribs are always eaten bone-in so they must be bone-in." that would make sense, right or wrong. To say "The meat could be pork butt" makes no sense since other categories open the door to similar deceptions and cheating.

dmp

G$
05-30-2012, 10:23 PM
Even if it was ruled legal your friend would have ended up in about the same place - the bottom of the standings for ribs.

Why?

Crash
05-31-2012, 02:58 AM
Why the stack the deck against you is my question?

It's a live and learn situation I suppose.

nycbbq
05-31-2012, 03:16 AM
Placed very high in ribs one year at the best of the best with a bed of rib meat in this no garnish contest.

swamprb
05-31-2012, 04:42 AM
Can you post a pic of the said offending DQ'd rib box in the "What not to Turn in" Thread??

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-31-2012, 06:56 AM
Why?

just a guess, over cooked. unable to obtain a bite mark to ensure proper cooking. just guessing but tenderness would probably be on the low side.

Tennessee Jed
05-31-2012, 09:36 AM
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h432/snyderitaville/2012YoungHarrisRibs.jpg

This is the actual box we turned in last weekend at Young Harris (DQ'd entry). Chopped rib meat is lining the bottom of the box underneath the 7 bone in ribs.

Bottom line... I was in the wrong. The entry was contrary to what the rules indicate are legal for a rib turn in. It was somewhat fortunate in my favor that I was able to present ribs in this manner for as long as I did. But as Phillip put it... just because I got away with it doesn't make it right. In all honesty I did not realize it was illegal until Phillip explained it to me. I commend him for his professionalism in handling the matter, as well as the judges who questioned it. I truly hope this becomes an example to judges & cooks alike to know the rules and consult their rep if there is any question about an entry.