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View Full Version : Is this unfair and unequal to you??


big matt
05-16-2012, 11:17 AM
This past weekend here in California there was a contest in Morgan Hill,Ca that was sanctioned by the PNWBA.the day after there was more than one judge that mentioned inconsistencies with the judging..here's the kicker there were boxes that sat on the turnin table for 30-35 minutes before being sampled these were hour turnins but that is no excuse for anybody's food to sit that long plus they were short on judges too so they"just made due"with what they had there..so basically if you were one of the first teams to turnin you got judged fairly but if you were one of the last your food sat for a very long time..we didn't cook this event we were in Long Beach..but I do feel bad for those that did cook this event and didn't get a fair shot..what do you guys think?

bbq.tom
05-16-2012, 11:35 AM
I'm not familiar with PNWBA judging, but it sounds to me like the contest organizer and reps didn't do justice to the cooks at this event. Why didn't they just double up on the samples being judged?

big matt
05-16-2012, 11:44 AM
From what was said and posted was some tables judged 7-8 samples..my main issue is they do the boxes one by one plus comment cards for everything which is very time consuming..so it leaves box 6 sitting a long time..and from a cooks view this is plain crazy to me..how the hell is the food you turned in even remotely close to being how you presented it..when all the food is cold that's one thing but when the first sample is hot and the last one is not that's a problem..there were also judges that said they got hot food all around and others didn't.

paydabill
05-16-2012, 12:25 PM
My opinion - that would suck - however, since I have never organized an event - the reason TOO MUCH WORK, it is hard for me to complain. I really think they probably did the best they could do.

I have been to events where they did not have enough judges, and they walked around the parking lot asking people to judge. That made me mad, but giving the two situations, do you want them to pull people off the street or let it sit. That is a hard call.

Does the PNWBA (who I have never cooked in) have a system for fair and hoenest feedback? If they do, then the cooks who might be upset needs to let that orgnaization know.

landarc
05-16-2012, 01:23 PM
Up front that seems unfair, but, I have heard that at other contests (KCBS, IBCA and others), similar things can happen. My understanding is that the food often gets judged under less than optimal conditions.

Obviously, there are PNWBA members on this board who can address this more clearly.

JD McGee
05-16-2012, 03:57 PM
I have forwarded this conversation to the PNWBA BOD of which I am a member...I can assure you it will be looked in to and all the facts gathered up in one neat little bundle before responding to any questions, assumptions, or accusations...stay tuned...
JD

big matt
05-16-2012, 04:29 PM
I have forwarded this conversation to the PNWBA BOD of which I am a member...I can assure you it will be looked in to and all the facts gathered up in one neat little bundle before responding to any questions, assumptions, or accusations...stay tuned...
JD

Thanks JD!..why I brought it up on this forum is because I have a high level of respect of all members here and value your opinions..the glaring issue here to me is that some boxes sat a very long time while others didn't..some got hot food others didn't..I don't know if this is how it normally works(you would know better than me)but I can't possibly fathom how it could be fair if that's the way it does happen normally..even with the hour turnin it's unacceptable IMO to let someones hard work,money,passion and love just sit idle for that long..even if the boxes were closed there is no way the last box is even close to being what that cook turned in..thanks again John for looking into this deeper.

swamprb
05-16-2012, 07:46 PM
I've been following the thread on the CBBQA forum and (which has since been locked down) otherwise I would jumped in since I am also a paid CBBQA member and have the same right as you to stir the pot since NEITHER of us cooked or judged the event.

Christene James the HJ at the event responded to the thread, and explained the situation. Its not common practice and there was a shortage of judges, what more do you want?

I took the liberty of posting a thread on the PNWBA Judging Forum just to get a response from our membership. Check it out.

So, yeah, there are California cooks that think that PNWBA is encroaching on KCBS territory, just as some of us Mossbacks think that KCBS is actively poaching established events in our little playground. But guess what? PNWBA isn't the only game in town for us and there should be no surprise that some NorCal organizers and cooks feel the same way about KCBS. Get over it.

I recently flew to Santa Clara to attend the Rhythm 'n Que BBQ Class, and afterwards hung out at the Masonic Lodge where there was a charity cook and spoke to a lot of folks and quite a few are Brethren and locals as well and there seemed to be the same attitude as we have it here in the Northwest-its all BBQ!! And hey, we need judges or it ain't no ball game KCBS/IBCA or PNWBA-people want to cook. So there will be faux pas in Judging, but it seems like you and a few others are just taking it to another forum to beat your dead horse.

I'm also a PNWBA BOD member and KCBS/PNWBA CBJ

Rant over!:mad2:

big matt
05-16-2012, 08:20 PM
Brian I respect you just as much as the next guy..but calling me a Califarker is straight outta line..you can keep your insults to yourself!..as far as stirring pot that's a bunch of crap too..people that worked hard,spent hard earned money,cooked their butt off only to get screwed in the tent..so if you wanna defend that there weren't inconsistencies in the judging your crazy..judges spoke up about it!..all I'm saying is there should be some kind of explanation as to why those boxes sat so long..you should come down to California and see how your cooking can hold up against us"Califarkers"..talk is cheap buddy I know I can back it up with my cooking how about you?

swamprb
05-16-2012, 09:22 PM
Brian I respect you just as much as the next guy..but calling me a Califarker is straight outta line..you can keep your insults to yourself!..as far as stirring pot that's a bunch of crap too..people that worked hard,spent hard earned money,cooked their butt off only to get screwed in the tent..so if you wanna defend that there weren't inconsistencies in the judging your crazy..judges spoke up about it!..all I'm saying is there should be some kind of explanation as to why those boxes sat so long..you should come down to California and see how your cooking can hold up against us"Califarkers"..talk is cheap buddy I know I can back it up with my cooking how about you?

I was using farker as a term of endearment. Sorry you got you panties in a bunch.

Apparently you haven't read the entire thread that you are ranting over on the CBBQA site. As I pointed out in my post the HJ gave an explanation and if you can't except it, then fine. There is a fairly good reason the CBBQA Mod locked down the thread as it couldn't get dragged down any farther. So now it gets moved to the national front.

Why not provide the Brethren with the link on the CBBQA Judges Only forum so, we can all analyze and dissect it??

Looking forward to someday soon cooking against Left Coast Q!

JD McGee
05-16-2012, 09:30 PM
Explanation is here...from Christine James (aka "deena" on the BBQ Brethren Forum) on the CBBQA forum...

Hi all,

The only reason boxes sat longer at this event is because we had 36 judges instead of 42 like we normally would have but we dealt with the number of judges we had access to. Our standard is 6 entries per table with a MAX as being 8 but we try to avoid that at all costs. At our events we usually have as close to the number of judges as teams as possible plus separate people who do the table captaining. We rarely have table captains do double duty. These judges were also not all used to doing comments so it took some of them longer than others.

We do have a judging program for our judges to show their ranking.

Someone mentioned tongs, we wipe the tongs down between meats to keep them clean. Personally I would rather use tongs than have someone else touch my food.

Judging boxes one at a time removes the issue of comparing entries. You can’t compare entries if they are not sitting next to each other on a sheet of paper.

I appreciate everyone’s opinion. We are a different group, with different rules. Thank you for your comments.

And here in her e-mail to me and the PNWBA BOD...

The facts. I'm not sure how the board wants to handle this. All I can do is give the facts of what happened at the event.

We had 36 CBJ's not the 42 we would have preferred to have considering we had 43 teams at the event. But we felt is was more important to work with CBJ's than add 6 more people that had never judged.
So judging took maybe an extra 5 minutes to judge 7 and then one table had to judge 8 (the one that was judged half past the hour so the longest it could have sat was 25 minutes) As we judge on a first in method. With every meat as the judges got used to the system it went faster. This is pretty normal. I talked to many KCBS judges that have said they get cold meat on a regular basis and that the meat at our event was hot. If it wasn't that means it probably was not turned in hot.

So...I am not seeing any issues here at all (so far) Christine followed our SOP to the letter. Granted...most of the judges were KCBS and our processes and procedures are different (we are not KCBS)...so there was a bit of a learning curve for them I'm sure.

Would we do anything different next year...probably not...other than hoping for enough judges to fill out the tables. I think Christine and the judging crew did an admirable job keeping the event alive and not having to be canceled due to lack of judges.

JD McGee
05-16-2012, 09:39 PM
Sorry for the bold letters up there...^^^...I was trying to separate my comments from Christine's...I wasn't shouting...:becky:

Big Poppa
05-16-2012, 10:15 PM
The nor cal cbbqa wanting to move towards Pnwba is dividing the state further...We are one of many teams who arent going North this year. We are a KCBS team.

JD Expansion is great for you guys but making sure that your infrastructure can handle it helps avoid these issues. Stuff happens all the time but first impressions are critical to the success of your expansion.

swamprb
05-16-2012, 10:22 PM
Unbelievable!

big matt
05-16-2012, 11:24 PM
I was using farker as a term of endearment. Sorry you got you panties in a bunch.

Apparently you haven't read the entire thread that you are ranting over on the CBBQA site. As I pointed out in my post the HJ gave an explanation and if you can't except it, then fine. There is a fairly good reason the CBBQA Mod locked down the thread as it couldn't get dragged down any farther. So now it gets moved to the national front.

Why not provide the Brethren with the link on the CBBQA Judges Only forum so, we can all analyze and dissect it??

Looking forward to someday soon cooking against Left Coast Q!We'd love to have you come down and cook!..as far as being endearing your tone was just the opposite..also I'm too dam big for panties I'd blow them out before I got them half way on..JD gave a good explanation as to what happened but bottom line there were some issues with this contest and you can't argue that it's just what happened.can't change the past..like you mentioned it's "all BBQ" but its COMPETITION BBQ and that's why it's so serious to me..How would you feel if you box was the one that sat there getting cold for a half hour?.would you say "oh well that's how it works".?

JD McGee
05-17-2012, 12:19 AM
The nor cal cbbqa wanting to move towards Pnwba is dividing the state further...We are one of many teams who arent going North this year. We are a KCBS team.

JD Expansion is great for you guys but making sure that your infrastructure can handle it helps avoid these issues. Stuff happens all the time but first impressions are critical to the success of your expansion.

What Nor-Cal or So-Cal CBBQA wants to do or not do is none of our concern...unlike KCBS...we do not solicit events to sanction...we were asked to do so by the event organizer...and we did. I am sure he or she had their reasons for wanting us over KCBS.

We are expanding locally in order to accommodate new events, new judges, and new cooks that join our organization. Our infrastructure is sound, stable, and insightful.

Sounds to me like you have some issues to deal with within your organization...do you root for the Giants...or the Dodgers...we root for the Mariners...please leave us out of your squabble! :tsk:

bigdogphin
05-17-2012, 12:30 AM
Until you have cooked in both KCBS and a PNWBA event how can anyone make a judgement.

I have cooked in both I have had issues with both KCBS and PNWBA events I have also had the best times of my life at both. To say one organization is better than another is pure ignorance. When people are involved stuff happens hopefuly it doesn't happen again. Reasonable explainations have been given to this case. Sorry to here some people exclude contests because they are uneducated or fear something different I hope something changes for you.

Both organizations strive to promote BBQ how is that bad. With limited sponsor money and people willing to hold a contest I would hope that everyone would be willing to promote bbq in their state.

Big Poppa
05-17-2012, 12:47 AM
Whoa JD I wasnt throwing stones a pnwba..not at all... Cbqqa chose your organization and I was saying that it is unfortunate that they had this issue because of how first impressions travel.... thats all....



I root for the Angels and Albert finally hit his second....

DawgPhan
05-17-2012, 09:36 AM
seems like the rules were followed and the judging happened according to the standards of PNWBA. Seems like at every contest the judging is first come first served. Nothing different appeared to happen here.

The only sanctioning where your box isnt going to sit is KCBS... at least in my understanding. Every other sanctioning that I know of will let a box sit for at least a few minutes. just depends on how they handle the tablining(is that a word) and judging.

Slamdunkpro
05-17-2012, 09:50 AM
The only sanctioning where your box isnt going to sit is KCBS... at least in my understanding.
Boxes can sit in KCBS - trust me.

landarc
05-17-2012, 09:51 AM
You know, in a KCBS event, the meet also sits for a bit (not 30 mins.) but I would bet 8 to 10 minutes, while the 6 pieces are being distributed for tasting. And the piece is sitting alone on a piece of paper on a table. And this is after the box was already opened and walked down the table.

Reading the CBBQA thread, it seems some of the folks that judged felt that the judging was fine and that most of the meat was still hot.

DawgPhan
05-17-2012, 10:08 AM
Boxes can sit in KCBS - trust me.


sure it can happen, but KCBS doesnt have sitting time built into the turn in process the way other sanctioning bodies do.

My understand is that once 6 boxes hit the tray for turn in, they are taken back to the judges and the process starts. Obviously during the process your box is going to sit, but box 6 isnt going to sit for a significant amount of time longer than box 1, which does not seem like the case for PNWBA events.

DawgPhan
05-17-2012, 10:09 AM
also if you compete and think that your box is getting judged minutes after you close the lid, you are mistaken.

G$
05-17-2012, 10:24 AM
My understand is that once 6 boxes hit the tray for turn in, they are taken back to the judges and the process starts.

This is not necessarily true.

huminie
05-17-2012, 10:28 AM
Whoa JD I wasnt throwing stones a pnwba..not at all... Cbqqa chose your organization and I was saying that it is unfortunate that they had this issue because of how first impressions travel.... thats all....



I root for the Angels and Albert finally hit his second....

CBBQA chose nothing. CBBQA has no say in what sanctioning body a contest organizer chooses. That is totally up to them. For the ToY program, CBBQA requires that a contest be sanctioned by a nationally recognized sanctioning body to ensure the integrity of the contest and therefore the ToY program. At this point the CBBQA will allow KCBS, IBCA (with certain conditions) and PNWBA. If another sanctioning body were to hold contests in California, CBBQA could potentially approve them as well.

Also, this was not the first PNWBA event in California, so there were no first impressions here either. Stockton last year went off without a hitch and it was a great event for all.

As for Morgan Hill, everyone I talked to thought it was a great event. The only issue seems to be that there was not enough trained judges available and the PNWBA reps chose to run with fewer judges rather than bring in folks off the street. The PNWBA judging system takes a bit longer to judge each entry, but the benefits to the cooks far outweigh the drawbacks IMO. For example, getting comment cards from every judge for every sub category provides a ton of insight.

The contest was well run, teams got a fair judging and everyone had fun.

Big Poppa
05-17-2012, 10:30 AM
Cool and they had a great champion! Congrats again....

DawgPhan
05-17-2012, 10:31 AM
This is not necessarily true.


that is not necessarily true..

big matt
05-17-2012, 10:33 AM
sure it can happen, but KCBS doesnt have sitting time built into the turn in process the way other sanctioning bodies do.

My understand is that once 6 boxes hit the tray for turn in, they are taken back to the judges and the process starts. Obviously during the process your box is going to sit, but box 6 isnt going to sit for a significant amount of time longer than box 1, which does not seem like the case for PNWBA events.

You hit the nail on the head with this one!..this is exactly what I'm saying..look if all the food is on the table at once it's all cooling at the same rate this is equal..but when your on the last box in PNWBA is judged KCBS would already be into the next category right?..the difference between 8-10 and 30-35 minutes can be a game killer for comp Q.

G$
05-17-2012, 10:37 AM
that is not necessarily true..

After chicken, it is my understanding that boxes in a KCBS turn in tray may be held or re-ordered to avoid duplication of judging tables. By definition, this could mean that no, once 6 boxes hit a tray it is NOT immediately taken to a table for judging.

I am not a KCBS Rep or TC. Perhaps one of them can confirm.

huminie
05-17-2012, 10:42 AM
Cool and they had a great champion! Congrats again....

Thanks...now I finally know what you guys have felt several times before!

landarc
05-17-2012, 10:47 AM
Nice win sir. I been expecting you to GC soon.

DawgPhan
05-17-2012, 10:49 AM
After chicken, it is my understanding that boxes in a KCBS turn in tray may be held or re-ordered to avoid duplication of judging tables. By definition, this could mean that no, once 6 boxes hit a tray it is NOT immediately taken to a table for judging.

I am not a KCBS Rep or TC. Perhaps one of them can confirm.

professional hair splitter? or do you just play one on the internet?

DawgPhan
05-17-2012, 10:51 AM
You hit the nail on the head with this one!..this is exactly what I'm saying..look if all the food is on the table at once it's all cooling at the same rate this is equal..but when your on the last box in PNWBA is judged KCBS would already be into the next category right?..the difference between 8-10 and 30-35 minutes can be a game killer for comp Q.


But I dont think that anything was done to break the rules or treat anyone unfairly. They simply followed the rules of the PNWBA. If you dont like those rules, that is up to the individual, but this contest does seem fair in the sense that the rules were followed and applied appropriately.

Lake Dogs
05-17-2012, 10:52 AM
I think GBA and FBA should take over the WORLD!! I guess they'll have to save California for last... :-)

*JOKE*

Guys, I know this comes as some surprise, but there is no 1 sanctioning body that does it all, and none of them are perfect. Most competitors around this area compete in contests sanctioned by a number of sanctioning bodies. Heck, we even have contests where there are 2 sanctioning bodies at 1 competition... Mind you, many think that KCBS is, to quote DRBBQ, the "swinging dick". Nothing wrong with having a preference. They surely sanction the most competitions across the country. But, I wouldn't not compete in another great competition sanctioned by another body just because it wasn't KCBS...

G$
05-17-2012, 10:54 AM
professional hair splitter? or do you just play one on the internet?

Wow. See ya guys.

huminie
05-17-2012, 11:09 AM
Nice win sir. I been expecting you to GC soon.

Thank you! First one and in front of the 'home' crowd made it doubly special!

landarc
05-17-2012, 11:12 AM
Hance, what is going on in the CBBQA is that there are some folks who are saying just that. If it's not KCBS, they aren't interested. More so, they are strongly pushing for the CBBQA to push towards that.

Rich Parker
05-17-2012, 11:21 AM
Competition in the sanctioning world would make things a lot better.

Lake Dogs
05-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Ah, I see! Maybe we'll have to introduce them to additional sanctioning bodies. I hear TX has some good ones too, and NC for that matter. NE has one that's growing... :-)

Seems to me that in this case the sanctioning body and the organizer made the best they could of an unfortunate situation. Did some get judged perhaps diffently? Perhaps, but frankly welcome to competition BBQ. It happens.

JD McGee
05-17-2012, 12:03 PM
For what it's worth...according to the head judge...the top scoring turn in boxes were turned in at different times...first...middle...and last...there was no specific pattern to what boxes scored scored higher based on turn in times...nuff said!

Big Poppa
05-17-2012, 01:22 PM
JD can you part pork though.....hehehe

Robert
05-17-2012, 02:30 PM
professional hair splitter? or do you just play one on the internet?

No, not at all. What G$ was saying is what can happen. For example, turn in brisket at 1:25 p.m. Your box could conceivably sit on the table for a full ten minutes waiting for that one last entry to make it to the table so that your entry wouldn't hit the same table twice. Obviously depends on the number of teams at a cook-off, but the reps try to distribute the various teams so they do not hit the same table twice.

Robert

JD McGee
05-17-2012, 03:15 PM
JD can you part pork though.....hehehe

Yup...I most certainly can..and do...right before I put it in the turn-in box...:becky:

bigdogphin
05-17-2012, 03:24 PM
Yup...I most certainly can..and do...right before I put it in the turn-in box...:becky:


Then whats the roll of string in your comp kit for bro!:shocked:

DawgPhan
05-17-2012, 03:37 PM
No, not at all. What G$ was saying is what can happen. For example, turn in brisket at 1:25 p.m. Your box could conceivably sit on the table for a full ten minutes waiting for that one last entry to make it to the table so that your entry wouldn't hit the same table twice. Obviously depends on the number of teams at a cook-off, but the reps try to distribute the various teams so they do not hit the same table twice.

Robert


I know what he was trying to say, he just missed the point. The exception and not the rule was his focus.

JD McGee
05-17-2012, 03:38 PM
Then whats the roll of string in your comp kit for bro!:shocked:

For my kite...duh! :becky:

JD McGee
05-17-2012, 03:40 PM
Hey...hold the phone here now...just how do you know what I have in my comp kit anyway Mr. Henry? :boxing:

Smoke'n Ice
05-17-2012, 05:05 PM
I'm sure that some of you folks have played a hand of black jack or two while in Vegas. Ever wonder why, when you double down, you must make one good before you look at the other? Could it be you might compare the hands prior to making a decision or it might influence your decision on the current hand!

Actually, I was involved in this procedure early on when on the PNWBA board. We found that the time differential was minimal but this was before they started the comment for each score procedure so I can not comment on the time requirement now.

I cook, judge and TC at KCBS events and still believe that the PNWBA procedure, minus the comment cards (due to time restraints), benefit the cooks, period. The food is hot, even after 15 minutes in the CLOSED box, not sitting on your plate, open to the air, for the 10 minutes between box 1 and box 6, not to mention the hold time waiting for enough to fill the tray and get to the table ala KCBS. Also, there is no subconcious comparing of entrie side-by-side on your plate or holding out that "9" just in case.

At a larger contest, the last table judging at a KCBS contest, can still be judging the last entry when the new ones start to arrive. If you don't believe this, go judge and/or TC one. You might be surprised at the time and the pressure to rush placed on the judges to finish as the next is coming in.

I cook IBCA as well, and appreciate Deenas desire not to mix in "the man off the street" with trained judges. If this were to occur, then all the the tables should have been populated with untrained and let the CBJ's tc and other duties. Even mixing them whould have been unfair.

swamprb
05-17-2012, 06:11 PM
JD can you part pork though.....hehehe

Pork collars haven't been banned either- you should start selling them.

riblette
05-18-2012, 04:23 PM
I competed at this event. If you look at the top 1/3 of the field you'll see most of the usual supects. A lot of teams with less experince finished in the lower 2/3rds of the pack.

The judging may not have been perfect, but when is it? I want a contest to be fair, and this one was as fair as any.

benjet
05-22-2012, 07:01 PM
Some further analysis from the Morgan Hill contest.

Here's 1st through 3rd place in each category.

Pork Butt
1. OG BBQ # 41
2. 155 South #42
3. Casual Smokers #15

Brisket
1. 155 South #20
2. Too Ashamed To Name #15
3. Smokey's Bar-B-Que #19

Chicken
1. Dads Doing What They Love #9
2. Chain Smokers #16
3. Royal Smokin Hot BBQ #33

Ribs
1. Bad S. BBQ #32
2.155 South Bar-B-Q #42
3. Cecil's Smok'n BBQ #2

# = Turn in order (Box 1 is the 1st turned in, Box 43 is the last in this case)

Tables do NOT have to take boxes in order.

Seems pretty spread around the turn in order.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-22-2012, 07:48 PM
After chicken, it is my understanding that boxes in a KCBS turn in tray may be held or re-ordered to avoid duplication of judging tables. By definition, this could mean that no, once 6 boxes hit a tray it is NOT immediately taken to a table for judging.

I am not a KCBS Rep or TC. Perhaps one of them can confirm.

As a KCBS TC, this is true... they try NOT to have the same team boxes land twice on the same table. So, yes, after chicken, some boxes may be held so that they will be on a different table.

At my last comp, when the brisket was coming in, boxes were taken out of the trays, and my tray was like 15 minutes before it was ready after the first tray was at the tables before they came to us, so yes, some times, there is a "bottle neck" of boxes being juggled before the TC's get them.