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View Full Version : Why no Pooling of Sauce?


dmprantz
05-16-2012, 09:01 AM
I was wondering if any one could explain to me the reason behind the ban on sauce pooling and puddling in KCBS. I acknowledge that it is a rule and am not trying to rail against it, just to understand why it's there and what it's trying to prevent.

Thanks,

dmp

bigpaul
05-16-2012, 09:08 AM
I'm assuming it could be a way of marking a box.

Ford
05-16-2012, 09:14 AM
It's a meat contest not sauce.

colonel00
05-16-2012, 09:17 AM
It's a meat contest not sauce.

As an outside observer, my first question is why do they allow any sauce then?

rkoener
05-16-2012, 09:18 AM
I think it is mostly because it could be a way of marking your box.

bover
05-16-2012, 09:39 AM
I had always heard it was because of marking, but since there's already a rule about that then why have a specific one for pooling?

va92bronco
05-16-2012, 09:42 AM
It's a meat contest not sauce.

x2. That's why I thought they had the rule.

dmprantz
05-16-2012, 10:27 AM
It's a meat contest not sauce.

This doesn't make sense to me and comes across as a cop out. As was mentioned, if it's a meat contest and not a sauce contest, then don't allow sauce. KCBS allows sauce.

As for marking, there's already a rule against that.

There's also already a rule against sauce on the side.

Again, I'm not trying to argue the rule. I'm not saying that "sauce pooling should be legal." I'm still wondering the intent of this....

dmp

BC Squared
05-16-2012, 10:34 AM
It's a meat contest not sauce.

So I assume you turn yours in without sauce then??

deepsouth
05-16-2012, 10:40 AM
ambiguity?

does the sauce pool underneath the garden of greens?

dmprantz
05-16-2012, 10:41 AM
^^^^^^

Irony?

deepsouth
05-16-2012, 10:52 AM
^^^^^^

Irony?

don't you think?

dmprantz
05-16-2012, 11:07 AM
I didn't notice the last line of the above post originally. I guess I confused it for part of the sig. My understanding (and some one please correct me if I'm wrong) is that if sauce drips off of your meat and is caught and/or disbursed by your garnish, but is not visible, then that is not a violation of the pooling rule. Similarly, if the sauce happens to pool underneath the garnish, it is not a violation.

dmp

roksmith
05-16-2012, 11:33 AM
correct

fnbish
05-16-2012, 11:34 AM
It seems like it is one of the ways to mark a box that may be accidental so they mention it so perhaps you don't mistakenly do so. Makes sense to me.

bbq.tom
05-16-2012, 11:45 AM
If you ask me (which you kinda did...), I think that this rule is for the exact reason that you can't use red-tip lettuce. It is because the founders of KCBS decided that this is the way it would be. No specific reason, other than it is what they decided.

Just my $0.02.

paydabill
05-16-2012, 12:20 PM
I was told years ago at my very first contest - Carolyn Wells was the rep - it was in line with no suace containers being allowed in the box. She explained a person could pool the sauce on the side. So, if a judge wanted to, they could dip their meat in the sauce.

To be more consistent across the 6 judges, this was not allowed. You either sauced the meat or not (I guess you could do some with or without in the same box), but the judges would judge their individual meat on how you presented, not a choice they made to dip or not dip the meat in the pool.

nthole
05-16-2012, 01:48 PM
^^^^^^

What he said is what Bunny taught at our class. No options during judging, you make it how you want it tasted.

dmprantz
05-16-2012, 02:23 PM
Thank you. I had a thought when I asked the question, but I didn't want to poison the well and make people think of it when I asked. I was reading a different sanctioning body's rules last night, and they had the following in there (paraphrased) regarding sauce:

1) Sauce, if it is used, is to be cooked on the meat.

2) Sauce is not to be applied to the meat once it is placed in the turn-in container.

3) Because of (1) and (2) above, sauce should never drip from the meat and pool in the (garnish free) turn-in container. Such behaviour would be indicative of a rule violation.

After reading that I thought about KCBS' pooling rule and the fact that they don't have rules (1) and (2) above. With pork, it's actually illegal to cook sauce on pulled pork, so I started to think about the genesis of that rule for KCBS. I wondered if it wasn't by chance "borrowed" from another ruleset thinking "If it's good for them, then it's good for us" without also considering the other sauce rules. The explanation given regarding "sauce on the side" explains it in a way that makes sense to me. Not that I agree with it or anything, but I don't feel it's out of place.

I wasn't trying to turn this into some long debate or anything, and I'm not looking to get it changed. I just wanted understand the intent. Thanks to all who answered.

dmp

paydabill
05-16-2012, 02:57 PM
I wasn't trying to turn this into some long debate or anything, and I'm not looking to get it changed. I just wanted understand the intent. Thanks to all who answered.

dmp

I think it is question and answer sections like this that make the breathern great. I always say question everything!

The only reason I asked Carolyn - it was my first contest and I used to put a ton of sauce on my ribs. I was afraid that it might be considered pooling. When I say a ton - I mean take each bone and dunk it in hot sauce and then add more in the box!

Ford
05-16-2012, 03:12 PM
Thank you. I had a thought when I asked the question, but I didn't want to poison the well and make people think of it when I asked. I was reading a different sanctioning body's rules last night, and they had the following in there (paraphrased) regarding sauce:

1) Sauce, if it is used, is to be cooked on the meat.

2) Sauce is not to be applied to the meat once it is placed in the turn-in container.

3) Because of (1) and (2) above, sauce should never drip from the meat and pool in the (garnish free) turn-in container. Such behaviour would be indicative of a rule violation.

After reading that I thought about KCBS' pooling rule and the fact that they don't have rules (1) and (2) above. With pork, it's actually illegal to cook sauce on pulled pork, so I started to think about the genesis of that rule for KCBS. I wondered if it wasn't by chance "borrowed" from another ruleset thinking "If it's good for them, then it's good for us" without also considering the other sauce rules. The explanation given regarding "sauce on the side" explains it in a way that makes sense to me. Not that I agree with it or anything, but I don't feel it's out of place.

I wasn't trying to turn this into some long debate or anything, and I'm not looking to get it changed. I just wanted understand the intent. Thanks to all who answered.

dmp
Pork can be sauced and put on the smoker so long as it is not parted. It can be cut to allow more surface to get sauce so long as it does not separate.

2 above is incorrect. We can apply sauce once in the box, just need to be careful not to create a pool. How it's done is up to the cook. With pork it's important for taste but ribs and chicken benefit most on the appearance side.

The idea is to glaze rather than coating with sauce to hide the fact that the meat has no flavor. Like rub it complements the meat.

dmprantz
05-16-2012, 03:32 PM
Pork can be sauced and put on the smoker so long as it is not parted. It can be cut to allow more surface to get sauce so long as it does not separate.

I specifically stated that pulled pork cannot have sauce cooked on it, and even made the word "pulled" bold to indicate what I meant. In the world of KCBS you are wrong. You cannot cook sauce on pulled pork because pulled pork is parted and cannot be returned to the cooker.

2 above is incorrect...

I thought I was pretty clear that the rules I posted were from a different sanctioning body, not KCBS, so once again, you are wrong. The other sanctioning body specifically prohibits saucing meat once it is prepared for turn in. I was also pretty clear that KCBS does not have that rule.

dmp

RangerJ
05-16-2012, 04:27 PM
I wasn't trying to turn this into some long debate or anything,
dmp

An interrogative of any type that concerns a KCBS rule will almost always bring about a long debate. At least in my limited time around here.

It will also open one's eyes to how subjective things are. That however, IMHO, is the nature of the beast. The entire process is subjective to an individuals taste buds.

Brisket Bob
05-16-2012, 04:52 PM
Here in Texas (LSBS) we cannot add any kind of juice or sauce to the meat after it is finished cooking. We can cook with sauce, we just can't apply it to the meat afterwards. Also, the only item in the tray with the meat is a sheet of tin foil (to keep the meat from burning through the styrofoam). No garnish of any kind is allowed. If they see any kind of pooling of sauce in the box, or any sauce on the meat that "looks" as if it was not cooked on, the box is dq'd.

dmprantz
05-16-2012, 05:06 PM
Here in Texas (LSBS)...

That sounds amazingly close to the rules I was describing....:heh:

dmp

Q-Dat
05-16-2012, 05:16 PM
It should also be noted that if you make your own sauce, that all ingredients in the sauce have to be cooked at the same time. At no time during the simmering process is parting of the sauce ingredients to be considered legal. ;):D

Brisket Bob
05-16-2012, 05:20 PM
That sounds amazingly close to the rules I was describing....:heh:

dmp

And?

dmprantz
05-16-2012, 05:21 PM
And of course, according to the advisories, "salsa" is not "sauce."

dmp

The Cosmic Pig
05-16-2012, 05:25 PM
don't you think?

A little too!

Brisket Bob
05-16-2012, 05:28 PM
And of course, according to the advisories, "salsa" is not "sauce."

dmp

That went way over my head...:doh:

Funtimebbq
05-16-2012, 09:00 PM
Here in Texas (LSBS) we cannot add any kind of juice or sauce to the meat after it is finished cooking. We can cook with sauce, we just can't apply it to the meat afterwards. Also, the only item in the tray with the meat is a sheet of tin foil (to keep the meat from burning through the styrofoam). No garnish of any kind is allowed. If they see any kind of pooling of sauce in the box, or any sauce on the meat that "looks" as if it was not cooked on, the box is dq'd.

Just out of curiosity, at every IBCA event I've competed in when a box is turned in, it is opened for inspection and the cook is allowed to correct any errors, such as sauce dripping on the sheet of aluminum or brisket slices facing the wrong direction. They have even had paper towels handy.
Is that normal at all IBCA contests?

Thanks, Benny

Brisket Bob
05-17-2012, 05:42 PM
Just out of curiosity, at every IBCA event I've competed in when a box is turned in, it is opened for inspection and the cook is allowed to correct any errors, such as sauce dripping on the sheet of aluminum or brisket slices facing the wrong direction. They have even had paper towels handy.
Is that normal at all IBCA contests?

Thanks, Benny

I think It's pretty standard to at least let you try and correct any errors. I know the Lone Star Barbecue Society does allow corrections to be turned in as long as it is within the turn in time. From the folks I've talked to who do quite a few IBCA contests, they are the same way.