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smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 09:47 AM
The more I am around, here and at comps, the more I hear of rumblings of poor judging.

I too wonder if there should be more training, mentoring, requirements. It is hard to understand when you turn in the same meat in the same box, that you get say 4 9's than a 6 and a 5 or less say for taste..... WOW... where did that come from? IMHO, preference... nothing else.

Here is a prime example for appearance.... http://www.bbqcritic.com/17/post/2012/05/ribs-box-92-frostbuster-2012.html#comments

Larry CBJ/KCBS/GBA
05/08/2012 3:24pm
7 - Gloppy sauce, uneven spacing, and clean the box. Attention to detail would surely get this box a 9.

John - KCBS/MCBJ, CTC, Rep; MBN
05/08/2012 5:16pm
Easy 8 and perhaps a 9. Nice box. I ignored the smudge on the inside front of the box because that could have happened when the table captain unfastened the lid prior to presenting for appearance.
BBQ Critic
05/09/2012 4:51am
John - Good call on ignoring that smudge inside the box. You are correct. The smudge could be the Table Captain's fault or even someone handling the box at the turn-in table. Congrats on giving the cook the benefit of the doubt.

-- BBQ Critic


Yes, I do a lot of surfing about the topic, and this is a prime example.... judges and table captains are instructed NOT to score down for sauce on the lid or box.... so, is this a lack of training, listening is class, or just personal preference????

I think this is just one example why so many say that the judges in general need more mentoring, training, etc....

These are just my thoughts only...

Comments are welcome, good or bad.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 09:49 AM
BTW, I have no clue who these judges are....

bbq.tom
05-14-2012, 10:07 AM
As a CBJ with a good number of contests judged, I still think that CONTINUAL education is a judge's best friend to provide the best possible judging for the cooks. Urging the judges to communicate with one another on their opinions of each category should be HIGHLY encouraged by the Table Captains.
In my humble opinion, the "rogue judge" (i.e., judge #6) is the one who thinks that he/she knows it all and won't listen to others or try to learn anything different from their own personal preferences. Their opinion of what is "good" is so limited that it is rare that they actually give high scores.

Just my $0.02.

QN
05-14-2012, 10:14 AM
I am seeing a trend back to judges only using the numbers 9, 8, and 7 for scoring entries instead of using the entire scoring system as taught. Part of this is due to comments being made by reps at judge's meetings like; teams spend a lot of money to be here to compete, give them the benefit of the doubt, give a good score if they did the best they could, and so on. Judges also have gone to using only these numbers so they will not be asked to fill out a comment card. I was a table captain at a recent contest where there were three 180 scores. Now, maybe those three meat entries were really that good, but at the table I was at no judge used any number on their card other than 9, 8, or 7 for every entry in all four meat categories except for two that had a chicken entry that was bloody raw and based on what I saw and sampled there were entries that should have not been anywhere near a 7 (above average). As much as cooks may want to think everything they turn in is great, judges have the responsibility to use the entire scale in scoring the entries they are judging. My point is that I agree that more training is needed to get judges to use he entire scale from 2 to 9 and not just the top three numbers. When you have four judges at a table using only 9, 8, 7 and you have two that are trying to use the entire scale from 2 to 9 then you end up with a scoring differential that does not look right.

va92bronco
05-14-2012, 10:15 AM
As a CBJ with a good number of contests judged, I still think that CONTINUAL education is a judge's best friend to provide the best possible judging for the cooks. Urging the judges to communicate with one another on their opinions of each category should be HIGHLY encouraged by the Table Captains.
In my humble opinion, the "rogue judge" (i.e., judge #6) is the one who thinks that he/she knows it all and won't listen to others or try to learn anything different from their own personal preferences. Their opinion of what is "good" is so limited that it is rare that they actually give high scores.

Just my $0.02.

What you are talking about is more experience rather than education. Talking about the BBQ and discussing your opinions is a great idea as it adds to the judges experience about BBQ and how we all taste it differently.

Continuing education is more along the lines of going to class, seminar, webinar, etc that tries to teach a specific aspect of the BBQ or whatever.

I think what you are discussing is a great idea and should be happening, but continuing education could be a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Who decides what judges should consider "real competition BBQ"? Taste is too subjective. You will never please all of the people all of the time.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 10:21 AM
Taste is very subjective, but let's look at the example of the appearance score of Larry and John in my original post....

where did Larry get the idea to score down because of the sauce on the box????

John hit it right on target for what is taught in the classes.....

Ford
05-14-2012, 10:27 AM
I think we need more time spent at the contest reminding judges of things like judge the entry as presented not just on what they like.

I also think there's no way to control personal preferences. Cooks should cook for the majority looking to get consistent scores. We can't control who judges, that's up to organizerss.

I also think we can't control the judges attitudes. They wake up on the wrong side of the bed, have a polite discussion with their spouse before heading to a contest and for that day their scores may drop. Next week they are right on with others. It's human nature and cooks have to live with it. Cooks also have bad days where they mess up. One rib has very little meat and the others are great and we say why did I get a low score. The cook may not even realize they messed up but the judges sure does. Even the best do things like this.

In the end, the cooks cook, the judges do the best they can that day and we move on to next week. I get as frustrated as everybody else when I get all 8's and 9's with a 766 but until we have paid professional judges that's life. I'm not advocating paid professional judges btw.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 10:28 AM
I am seeing a trend back to judges only using the numbers 9, 8, and 7 for scoring entries instead of using the entire scoring system as taught. Part of this is due to comments being made by reps at judge's meetings like; teams spend a lot of money to be here to compete, give them the benefit of the doubt, give a good score if they did the best they could, and so on. Judges also have gone to using only these numbers so they will not be asked to fill out a comment card. I was a table captain at a recent contest where there were three 180 scores. Now, maybe those three meat entries were really that good, but at the table I was at no judge used any number on their card other than 9, 8, or 7 for every entry in all four meat categories except for two that had a chicken entry that was bloody raw and based on what I saw and sampled there were entries that should have not been anywhere near a 7 (above average). As much as cooks may want to think everything they turn in is great, judges have the responsibility to use the entire scale in scoring the entries they are judging. My point is that I agree that more training is needed to get judges to use he entire scale from 2 to 9 and not just the top three numbers. When you have four judges at a table using only 9, 8, 7 and you have two that are trying to use the entire scale from 2 to 9 then you end up with a scoring differential that does not look right.

Yes, the last comp I was table captain at, I did hear this, but they are doing away with the comment cards (at least for now)... so why the
"push" for the higher scores????

I tend to glance at the scores just to make sure the score cards are filled out properly only, and not as to what each judge scores...

I think KCBS has implemented a system to track judges to see who are "no shows", scoring patterns, etc.... I think that is what I have read and/or seen... correct me if wrong please.

I tossed this back to the judging committee at KCBS as well... maybe they will continue to look at this more and get the "training" more up to speed with having the reps remind each judge not to look at the sauce on the lids,etc.... The reps at the last couple of comps I have been at have done this, so are the judges just not listening, or do they already have a mindset of what is right or wrong???? After reading those comments on my original post, I tend to believe that "Larry" has that mindset of what he expects.....

Ford
05-14-2012, 10:37 AM
Mark

Had a discussion recently with a master FBA judge who also does MBN and KCBS. I asked what is average. Amazingly he said Sonnys was average. Another master judge said average based on their judging experience. I would expect nothing below 7 from the first and some lower from the second. If we just defined average as Sonnys then there would be a lot more consistency. That's also going to work for novice judges. Now maybe we lower what average is so that more numbers come into play. Now if I got average scores for my chicken, that means they thought it compared to Sonnys and I'd feel pretty bad about my chicken and be looking to improve. When we moved south I tried Sonnys chicken and I think every cook down here can and usually does better than that.

BC Squared
05-14-2012, 10:38 AM
While I agree there may be poor judges out there, it sure doesn't seem to affect the consistent teams....so how big of an issue is it really?

Podge
05-14-2012, 10:39 AM
Part of this is due to comments being made by reps at judge's meetings like; teams spend a lot of money to be here to compete, give them the benefit of the doubt, give a good score if they did the best they could, and so on. .

I really hope this isn't the case, but can easily see it done at just about any contest. That is unfair to us as competitors. I do not deserve a 9 if it should be a 6. If i get a 9 on something, then i think he/she really meant to give that, and then i think my stuff is good. I can't learn with B.S. scores. I spend a lot of money to be judged fairly. (and others for that matter).. I can see me getting 11th in ribs, and another guy gettting 10th, because at his table there were two or so judges who feel sorry for teams who turned in crap. I want to be beat by better BBQ, not by judges who love to give out "Participant awards"

Outnumbered
05-14-2012, 10:46 AM
There needs to be some sort of standards put into place to give the judges some guidance. I'm now two contests into my experience level, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much here, but I have noticed there is no consistency to judging.

A perfect example this weekend is our brisket. Not going to argue the taste or tenderness category since I thought it was a bit dry. However, it did look damn good, and five of the judges agreed with 9s. Then one judge gave us a 6!

Not saying any of them were deserved or not, but how can you have 5 judges give you a 9 and then one gives you a 6? An 7 or 8 I can see, but that's a big chasm between a 6 and 9.

QN
05-14-2012, 10:49 AM
Mark

Had a discussion recently with a master FBA judge who also does MBN and KCBS. I asked what is average. Amazingly he said Sonnys was average. Another master judge said average based on their judging experience. I would expect nothing below 7 from the first and some lower from the second. If we just defined average as Sonnys then there would be a lot more consistency. That's also going to work for novice judges. Now maybe we lower what average is so that more numbers come into play. Now if I got average scores for my chicken, that means they thought it compared to Sonnys and I'd feel pretty bad about my chicken and be looking to improve. When we moved south I tried Sonnys chicken and I think every cook down here can and usually does better than that.

Not sure what Sonny's is. Have never had it. Guess that is a new rule that needs to be added for judge education. Must go eat Sonny's to see what average is... :becky:
RE: KCBS; old rule was to start at 9. then start at 6. now just score each entry on it's own with no starting point. I think a lot of judges have gone back to starting at 9.

QN
05-14-2012, 10:52 AM
There needs to be some sort of standards put into place to give the judges some guidance. I'm now two contests into my experience level, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much here, but I have noticed there is no consistency to judging.

A perfect example this weekend is our brisket. Not going to argue the taste or tenderness category since I thought it was a bit dry. However, it did look damn good, and five of the judges agreed with 9s. Then one judge gave us a 6!

Not saying any of them were deserved or not, but how can you have 5 judges give you a 9 and then one gives you a 6? An 7 or 8 I can see, but that's a big chasm between a 6 and 9.

Maybe that one judge was trying to use the entire scoring scale and thought it looked "average"; 6 = average. And, maybe the other judges all started at 9 and stayed there. I have no way of knowing, but it is possible.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 10:59 AM
Sonny's is a BBQ chain in the southern states.... when I use to live there... average in my book... on most days.

There needs to be some sort of standards put into place to give the judges some guidance. I'm now two contests into my experience level, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much here, but I have noticed there is no consistency to judging.

A perfect example this weekend is our brisket. Not going to argue the taste or tenderness category since I thought it was a bit dry. However, it did look damn good, and five of the judges agreed with 9s. Then one judge gave us a 6!

Not saying any of them were deserved or not, but how can you have 5 judges give you a 9 and then one gives you a 6? An 7 or 8 I can see, but that's a big chasm between a 6 and 9.

My point exactly..... just like the example I gave abt the sauce in/on the box.... they are NOT suppose to take that into consideration on the scoring of the MEAT....

Outnumbered
05-14-2012, 11:00 AM
Maybe that one judge was trying to use the entire scoring scale and thought it looked "average"; 6 = average. And, maybe the other judges all started at 9 and stayed there. I have no way of knowing, but it is possible.

Could be, but that's a hell of leap to justify. Maybe the one judge with the 6 looked at it and said it's all average and the other five said that looks excellent. In any case, isn't that an argument for establishing some sort of consistency? Is there a definition of average?

QN
05-14-2012, 11:16 AM
Could be, but that's a hell of leap to justify. Maybe the one judge with the 6 looked at it and said it's all average and the other five said that looks excellent. In any case, isn't that an argument for establishing some sort of consistency? Is there a definition of average?

I am not trying to justify anything, just giving an example of what mght have happened. To my knowledge,there is no specific definition of "average" other than that it is represented by a score of "6". I agree that it would be nice to have more consisten scoring. Back when everyone stated at 9 things were fairly consistent, but there were multiple180 scores at every contest because so many 9's were given consistently.

EatonHoggBBQ
05-14-2012, 11:32 AM
There needs to be some sort of standards put into place to give the judges some guidance. I'm now two contests into my experience level, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much here, but I have noticed there is no consistency to judging.


2010 KCBS Judge’s Meeting – Mandatory Reading

This document or the audio copy of this document must be read or played for all judges at each KCBS Sanctioned contest. All Judges must attend this meeting and listen to the CD before they can judge. These Kansas City Barbeque Society judging procedures for 2010 are intended to provide the standards you should use in judging this contest. Remember, as a KCBS Judge, you are not judging by what you like but to the standards defined by KCBS. KCBS Sanctioning allows for blind judging only. Entries will be submitted in an approved KCBS numbered container provided by the Contest Organizer.

There already are standards in place, if you can find where they are actually listed. :frusty:

Outnumbered
05-14-2012, 11:43 AM
There already are standards in place, if you can find where they are actually listed. :frusty:

I took my class less than one month ago. There was discussion that the brisket should snap somewhat easily. But really that's about all that was discussed. No real standards we mentioned or discussed. A picture or something would be great to say, this here is average.

All I personally know about what is considered good BBQ meat is what that judge on BBQ Pitmasters said about bite-through skin, ribs that don't completely fall off the bone, and brisket that doesn't fall apart.

Ah hell, can I go back and change my vote to "doesn't matter?" Cause in the end, it really doesn't matter. You're going to get judged by that table and you get judged on what they like and what they don't. Everyone is going to have a different opinion on what is good.

Outnumbered
05-14-2012, 11:46 AM
I am not trying to justify anything, just giving an example of what mght have happened. To my knowledge,there is no specific definition of "average" other than that it is represented by a score of "6". I agree that it would be nice to have more consisten scoring. Back when everyone stated at 9 things were fairly consistent, but there were multiple180 scores at every contest because so many 9's were given consistently.

And honestly, it looked good. But for how good of a brisket it really was, the 6 was far closer to what it really was than 9 when you take how it tasted and the tenderness into account. :biggrin1:

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 11:49 AM
My original post is below for reference....

Now, are only the cook team grumbling, as they do not know the judging procedures/training, or is it a mix of team, judges, table captains, etc....

My first part, referenced taste....

Then the main suggested "training" comment was appearance... and judging with the sauce on the box.....

IF you have ever taken a judging class, table captain class, or even really listened to the reps (at least the ones I have been at), listened to the CD, you will HEAR the part about sauce on the box....

What I am getting at, is, I feel there are some judges, that all they want is a "free" meal, take homes, and get out of there.... are they really taking the "job" seriously???? Who really know but the judge themselves.

I do believe KCBS is starting to look into this, and from what I can gather, they are or will be tracking the judges and their scores for comparison from comp to comp. Hopefully if this is what is going on, it will help get a feel for why there are some that are lower scoring judges compared to others, or on the other hand, why are there some that consistently score high....

If this is truly the case, it will take some time to get it implemented and do some study.... so in the mean time.... let's just to what we do best, and keep the blue smoke rolling..... happy BBQ'n.

The more I am around, here and at comps, the more I hear of rumblings of poor judging.

I too wonder if there should be more training, mentoring, requirements. It is hard to understand when you turn in the same meat in the same box, that you get say 4 9's than a 6 and a 5 or less say for taste..... WOW... where did that come from? IMHO, preference... nothing else.

Here is a prime example for appearance.... http://www.bbqcritic.com/17/post/2012/05/ribs-box-92-frostbuster-2012.html#comments

Larry CBJ/KCBS/GBA
05/08/2012 3:24pm
7 - Gloppy sauce, uneven spacing, and clean the box. Attention to detail would surely get this box a 9.

John - KCBS/MCBJ, CTC, Rep; MBN
05/08/2012 5:16pm
Easy 8 and perhaps a 9. Nice box. I ignored the smudge on the inside front of the box because that could have happened when the table captain unfastened the lid prior to presenting for appearance.
BBQ Critic
05/09/2012 4:51am
John - Good call on ignoring that smudge inside the box. You are correct. The smudge could be the Table Captain's fault or even someone handling the box at the turn-in table. Congrats on giving the cook the benefit of the doubt.

-- BBQ Critic


Yes, I do a lot of surfing about the topic, and this is a prime example.... judges and table captains are instructed NOT to score down for sauce on the lid or box.... so, is this a lack of training, listening is class, or just personal preference????

I think this is just one example why so many say that the judges in general need more mentoring, training, etc....

These are just my thoughts only...

Comments are welcome, good or bad.

Lake Dogs
05-14-2012, 11:51 AM
While in any pool of people there are always a few that you'd prefer to not have in that pool, additional training and experience is always beneficial.

I will tell you though that appearance can be just as subjective as taste. For example, I've seen Money Muscle presentations that are AWESOME, and some that I wasn't sure if it was meat or not because it really, and I mean REALLY looked like a turd in the box. I dont know about you, but the sight of a turd doesn't make me think "Man, I've just GOT to take a bite of THAT!". Apparently it either doesn't look like a turd to some or some find turds appetizing because I've seen scores on tables like this (for appearance) vary from 4's and 5's (I think someone was being generous) to 9's... It's tough, frankly.
I've seen chicken come across that looks like all types of things that aren't chicken. The little red Christmas ornaments seem to have been vogue for a while. I've also seen chicken that really, and I mean REALLY looked like baked potatoes... Being as you're there to judge how appetizing this chicken is to you, how would you score it? <rhetorically>

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 11:55 AM
I am surprised that this hasn't been brought up yet....

http://kcbs.us/judges-education.php

BTW, you HAVE to be a judge to get there.... not just a member.

Coz
05-14-2012, 12:00 PM
I wonder how much of what the new to BBQ judges influences come from what they are given at the CBJ class. When I took the class the chicken was very good the rest was pretty bland. Most of the folks scored it very high . The instuctor told me not to judge it against what I cook but its own merit. When my partner took his class the instructor gave him the same instruction (same instructor) The food there was bordering on inedible and folks still scored it high . In fact my partner said it should be a crime to call that BBQ. Really how much are we asking of these people especially since in our area there really isnt any joints where good Q is to be had. If they think they are being fed good comp food , then they get to a contest and get a few entries that are so-so they give em 8-9 then they get an outstanding one ? There has been 150 or more new CBJs created in our state the last few years and I bet that most will have a very hard time getting to judge due to the fact that we dont have that many contests . I think the Masters deal is kinda FUBAR also. I have seen where the folks had to dig in and do everything and where they just showed up and visited then got passed because the cook didnt want to be the *******. That benefits no none.

EatonHoggBBQ
05-14-2012, 12:08 PM
Just out of curiosity, what exactly would the continuing judges education consist of?

Remember now, judges score with:
KCBS standards
Objective and subjective opinion on appearance, taste, and texture of the entry.

KCBS standards are set values.
Objective and subjective opinions are personal input.

Above and beyond that what else is needed? What else could be used?

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 12:17 PM
When my wife took her judging class, I was there... I helped the cook team some, and saw what was cooked.... they used up all kinds of different sauces, etc just to use them up... burnt a couple of briskets, ....... etc....

Now a cook team member taking the class knows ( or should know) the difference between, and I am going to use this terminology for what it is worth, good and bad bbq.

The average public taking the class will think that since a comp team is cooking it is the "standard".... :rolleyes: Now when they get to their first comp to judge, WOW... in their minds, "wow, this is the best compared to that junk at the class"..... so, they give out 9's.....

Now someone that has been around the circuit for a while, knows, or should know a little more abt what is going on... IMHO.

So, like it has been asked before, what is average?????

Is it really all subjective, or personal preference?????

And now, back to my original question... what about the judge that scored down for sauce on the box????? was that his personal preference?? looks like it as the comment was, "I scored down for sauce on the box.... "

Apparently he has not, did not, or doesn't listen to the reps, cd, or his training manual, or class......

How does that get corrected????


I wonder how much of what the new to BBQ judges influences come from what they are given at the CBJ class. When I took the class the chicken was very good the rest was pretty bland. Most of the folks scored it very high . The instuctor told me not to judge it against what I cook but its own merit. When my partner took his class the instructor gave him the same instruction (same instructor) The food there was bordering on inedible and folks still scored it high . In fact my partner said it should be a crime to call that BBQ. Really how much are we asking of these people especially since in our area there really isnt any joints where good Q is to be had. If they think they are being fed good comp food , then they get to a contest and get a few entries that are so-so they give em 8-9 then they get an outstanding one ? There has been 150 or more new CBJs created in our state the last few years and I bet that most will have a very hard time getting to judge due to the fact that we dont have that many contests . I think the Masters deal is kinda FUBAR also. I have seen where the folks had to dig in and do everything and where they just showed up and visited then got passed because the cook didnt want to be the *******. That benefits no none.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 12:20 PM
I think, but I don't know, this may be what is on the KCBS website for judges training....

Hopefully it will have some of the basic questions that is in their training, on the CD and what the reps continue to stress on the comps.... if they have to answer the questions online, maybe they will get it right when they don't seem to have that "basic" knowledge when they score down for sauce on the lid or on the edge of a box......

Wish I could see what that section of the judging on line training consists of......

Just out of curiosity, what exactly would the continuing judges education consist of?

Remember now, judges score with:
KCBS standards
Objective and subjective opinion on appearance, taste, and texture of the entry.

KCBS standards are set values.
Objective and subjective opinions are personal input.

Above and beyond that what else is needed? What else could be used?

BRBBQ
05-14-2012, 12:27 PM
I've been at more then one contest that didnt have enough judges, so the Reps find the 1st person walking down the street..No training there!

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 12:41 PM
I've been at more then one contest that didnt have enough judges, so the Reps find the 1st person walking down the street..No training there!

Were you there when the rep "volunteered" them????

I am sure, or would think that they (the rep) did give them some basic instruction as they do for a "seasoned" and new judge...... and hopefully show them some of the turn in box pics......

bbq.tom
05-14-2012, 12:42 PM
I've been at more then one contest that didnt have enough judges, so the Reps find the 1st person walking down the street..No training there!

And... do you think that they make better judges since they have no clue as to what they are doing???

Actually, it is rare that I don't hear during the judge's meeting that the judges should take into consideration the time and money the cooks have invested for the competition. Encouraging judges to score higher.

Continuing education - either formal classroom training OR informal (discussions with other judges at your table on the entries you just judged) is esential for furthering a judge's knowledge and honing their judging skills. IMHO. IF (and that is a BIG IF) they actually LISTEN and absorb the opinions expressed by others. Closed minded judges are NOT helping advance the sport we know and love as competition barbecue!

Concerning the "on-line" judge's exams (KCBS), these CAN be good if used to help understand and LEARN from what is presented. A judge can take the exam numerous times and not learn a dadgum thing if they don't take the time to read and understand "why" the answer is what it is.

Just my $0.02.

ModelMaker
05-14-2012, 12:42 PM
I think if you look around a little you'll see KCBS is indeed trying to improve judging with continueing efforts. There is a 1st time judge mentoring program, an online continueing education effort for CBJ's, you have new BOD members made up of cooks, judges, cook/judges and I see some attention being paid just to the judges. I think a lot has been started latley and I expect it to lead to improvements in the future.
You've mentioned score creep, I couldn't agree more. Average gets a 6, truely above average gets a 7, Great's an 8, Gimme dat's a 9. Maybe this too will be addressed in the future (man I can hear the whinning already)!!
How much cook teams spend and how hard they work has no place in KCBS scoring.
I'd like to see reference of same banned in the judges tent period.
Last but not least, if I remember correctly from the judges cd it mentions smears only on the lid of the box, nothing about the inside, that box in question is a mess and I would deduct a point for appearence. The smears on the sides should have been wiped off by the cook before sending it to the turn in table.
Ed

Coz
05-14-2012, 01:24 PM
When my wife took her judging class, I was there... I helped the cook team some, and saw what was cooked.... they used up all kinds of different sauces, etc just to use them up... burnt a couple of briskets, ....... etc....

Now a cook team member taking the class knows ( or should know) the difference between, and I am going to use this terminology for what it is worth, good and bad bbq.

The average public taking the class will think that since a comp team is cooking it is the "standard".... :rolleyes: Now when they get to their first comp to judge, WOW... in their minds, "wow, this is the best compared to that junk at the class"..... so, they give out 9's.....

Now someone that has been around the circuit for a while, knows, or should know a little more abt what is going on... IMHO.

So, like it has been asked before, what is average?????

Is it really all subjective, or personal preference?????

And now, back to my original question... what about the judge that scored down for sauce on the box????? was that his personal preference?? looks like it as the comment was, "I scored down for sauce on the box.... "

Apparently he has not, did not, or doesn't listen to the reps, cd, or his training manual, or class......

How does that get corrected????

I dont read it as he scored down for the sauce but that it would score better if more attention was paid to the details.The stuff he listed was details. I gave it a 7 at first blush but in person maybe an 8. If we turned in a box like that I would be Pissed at myself .Now thats based on that pic being taken before we walked it to turn in. The uneven spacing etc could be from jostling etc.
How do we fix the issue if the judge did put it as you stated on a comment card ? I dont know the answer but I think with some tracking of it happens perhaps it will get better. We had an issue at an event last year her .I believe that the reps may have talked with the judge but I am not sure. I know the organiser most likely wont use that judge again.
I judged an event and sat at the same table with a couple of folks I see regularly and now I kinda get POed when I see them headed for the tent. Minimal bites on the piece etc . I also had the fortune to sit with 2 really good judges IMHO who spent some time sharing their views . I kinda decided judging was not in the best interest of my blood pressure. :mmph: For the most part I have not felt that bad on the judging we have gotten. I spent a lot of time cussing rib judging last year but discovered I really did suck at ribs last year.

EatonHoggBBQ
05-14-2012, 01:48 PM
Sauce on the inside of the lid should not be marked down. Contest reps explain prior to judging that sauce could be there due to stacking of the boxes on the turn in tray. If it's a subjective or objective call then I don't know what to tell you. Smudges on the inside of the box don't make me not want to eat barbeque.

Personally I think the judges mentoring is a bad idea. There are too many judges out there that think they are the ultimate and regardless of what KCBS wants them to instill in their newby judge, they are still going pump some of their B.S. into them. That is where the problem is going to begin. Newby judge with KCBS standards and rules on one side of the brain, B.S. from super judge on the other side of the brain. KCBS needs to make available to the mentors, an actual list of their judging standards, and a printed copy of the judging cd for them to use when answering questions from the new judge.

The education was given at the judges class. The continuing education that is really needed doesn't need to be in some class room or in some online test. The continuing education is given out freely every weekend inside the judges tent. You just have to get off your rear end and take part.

BRBBQ
05-14-2012, 02:12 PM
Were you there when the rep "volunteered" them????

I am sure, or would think that they (the rep) did give them some basic instruction as they do for a "seasoned" and new judge...... and hopefully show them some of the turn in box pics......
Local contest and judges at my table went over the basic info on what to look for, I dont think it's fair to any team

SirPorkaLot
05-14-2012, 02:21 PM
Whoa..Sonny's is average? For who??

It may well be the worst BBQ I have ever had...

ModelMaker
05-14-2012, 02:46 PM
Sauce on the inside of the lid should not be marked down. Contest reps explain prior to judging that sauce could be there due to stacking of the boxes on the turn in tray. If it's a subjective or objective call then I don't know what to tell you. Smudges on the inside of the box don't make me not want to eat barbeque.

Personally I think the judges mentoring is a bad idea. There are too many judges out there that think they are the ultimate and regardless of what KCBS wants them to instill in their newby judge, they are still going pump some of their B.S. into them. That is where the problem is going to begin. Newby judge with KCBS standards and rules on one side of the brain, B.S. from super judge on the other side of the brain. KCBS needs to make available to the mentors, an actual list of their judging standards, and a printed copy of the judging cd for them to use when answering questions from the new judge.

The education was given at the judges class. The continuing education that is really needed doesn't need to be in some class room or in some online test. The continuing education is given out freely every weekend inside the judges tent. You just have to get off your rear end and take part.

If you would read the mentoring article you will undestand that the mentor is not there to teach, only to reafirm what was taught in the class and be a freind for a new judge in a new enviroment. The Rep at hand is to remind the mentor of this also.
How can this not be of some comfort to a 1st time judge and to set him on the path to being a great judge that you all deserve as cooks and KCBS needs to provide to organisers?
Ed

NBBD
05-14-2012, 04:11 PM
KCBS
I have never competed,I just took the class a month ago, I just judged my first comp.

I think judges absolutely need continuing education and the test on the KCBS site is not the answer. A video section would be a good start... (Somewhere I heard or read of the idea that a Video CBJ class with a facilitator mentioned so that everyone who becomes certified sees the same info.)

Dale P
05-14-2012, 05:02 PM
I for one feel that the Judges do a good job. But there are some rogue Judges I have talked to that no amount of training will help. It is a personality trait that has no answer. AKA as they are nuts.

EatonHoggBBQ
05-14-2012, 05:58 PM
I for one feel that the Judges do a good job. But there are some rogue Judges I have talked to that no amount of training will help. It is a personality trait that has no answer. AKA as they are nuts.


And they will be mentoring new judges. :crazy:

Fat Freddy
05-14-2012, 06:11 PM
Were you there when the rep "volunteered" them????

I am sure, or would think that they (the rep) did give them some basic instruction as they do for a "seasoned" and new judge...... and hopefully show them some of the turn in box pics......

I have been at a contest where there were not enough judges and they organizers were indeed pulling people off the street, or out of the casino where the event was being held in my case, offering them some gift to judge then putting them with experienced judges. That was the extent of the education. I know this because I was one that was asked and that was how I judged my very first contest that started my involvement in BBQ.

As a judge and a cook I guess my main pet peeve is preconceived thoughts. Sadly it is not the newer judges that have these thoughts. Some of what I mean is on the bbqcritic or even here on the brethren. How many times have we heard stuff about looking like blues hog or tasting like Blues Hog so I marked down. Or another one that gets me one judge marks down because the brisket flat has fat on it but on another box a different judge marks down because there was no fat on it. I could keep going with the muffin pan chicken, burnt ends,sliced pork etc...

I dont feel it is the newer judges that have already made up their mind but it is the more experienced judges that should be judging each piece on its own merit.

Rich Parker
05-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Taste and appearance are very subjective and only tenderness can be taught. Do you really need a mentor or continuing education to know that? I could see if there was a whole list of rules a CBJ needs to remember but it isn't rocket science.

Capn Kev
05-14-2012, 07:42 PM
I took my class less than one month ago. There was discussion that the brisket should snap somewhat easily. But really that's about all that was discussed. No real standards we mentioned or discussed.

This is my biggest fear when it comes to judging. Differences among "teachers" on what constitutes tenderness. "Snap"... seriously? I've always heard of the pull test, and how the meat should have very little resistance before breaking, yet should not fall apart when you try to pick up the slice. It should stay as one piece.

Snap? To me if a brisket slice has to be bent to break in half in a snapping fashion...it's undercooked.

Just my $.02.