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dmprantz
05-09-2012, 01:07 PM
I thought this might interest some people. Below is a quote from the committee reports recently posted to the KCBS website:

Our committee suggests the following rewording of cooks' Rule # 10:

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds, bone in or boneless. Pork must be cooked whole, the only time that cooked, parted pork may be returned to the cooker is for warming purposes only during the one half hour immediately before the official pork turn-in time.


Thoughts?


dmp

JayAre
05-09-2012, 01:15 PM
My thoughts are: somebody is finally listening to the cooks. tough to enforce though (just as it is now)

rksylves
05-09-2012, 01:20 PM
Pretty open ended. After all, cooking is nothing more than warming anyway. It probably should be defined better if they want to go that way. Probably end up adding verbage that says that the MEAT 'warming' temperature is not to exceed 150 degrees or something like that.

If not somebody will try to skirt by saying that 205 internal is 'warming'.

Russ

Podge
05-09-2012, 01:23 PM
That there makes A LOT of sense !!.. Pork is the only thing we're not allowed to warm back up... Hopefully, this will become the rule change.. Anybody know when this is voted on and when it'd take effect?

dmprantz
05-09-2012, 01:31 PM
That suggestion is on a committee report for tonight's meeting. Not sure if there will be a vote, nor when that would take effect. Most rule changes take effect the following year.

dmp

Jorge
05-09-2012, 01:37 PM
That there makes A LOT of sense !!.. Pork is the only thing we're not allowed to warm back up... Hopefully, this will become the rule change.. Anybody know when this is voted on and when it'd take effect?

Speaking solely for myself, and not KCBS or the board....

It goes to the board for review tonight, but would not be implemented until the 2013 season begins.

Since it hasn't been discussed by the entire board at this point, I don't believe it would be appropriate for me to say much more at this point. I'm not campaigning one way or the other in public. Thoughts and opinions are always appreciated.

Scottie
05-09-2012, 01:46 PM
So who enforces the 30 minutes? If we couldn't enforce walking around and randomly checking cooks at 11:00 to see if their meat is parted, how will this be enforced?

Sorry opens up too many cans of worms. Leave the rules alone or learn how to cook pork.

bover
05-09-2012, 01:48 PM
Speaking solely for myself, and not KCBS or the board....

It goes to the board for review tonight, but would not be implemented until the 2013 season begins.

Since it hasn't been discussed by the entire board at this point, I don't believe it would be appropriate for me to say much more at this point. I'm not campaigning one way or the other in public. Thoughts and opinions are always appreciated.

I like the spirit behind it a lot, but would suggest that the grammar be cleaned up a bit. Perhaps something like this:


PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds, bone in or boneless. Pork must be cooked whole. Once removed from the cooker, the only time the pork may be returned to the cooker (either whole or parted) is for warming purposes. Warming period begins no earlier than 30 minutes prior to the official pork turn-in time.

Alexa RnQ
05-09-2012, 01:49 PM
tough to enforce though (just as it is now)

Pretty open ended. ... somebody will try to skirt by saying that 205 internal is 'warming'.

^^ If the goal was to prune away vague, unenforceable rules, this new version isn't much better.

landarc
05-09-2012, 01:51 PM
Or, change it so that it is like the other meats, and can be parted whenever you choose. (I am not so sure that is a good idea, just another idea)

Podge
05-09-2012, 01:51 PM
So who enforces the 30 minutes? If we couldn't enforce walking around and randomly checking cooks at 11:00 to see if their meat is parted, how will this be enforced?

Sorry opens up too many cans of worms. Leave the rules alone or learn how to cook pork.

But I don't know how to cook pork !!!:-P

All sorts of cans of worms have been opened ever since they started screwing with the pork rule.

Pigs on Fire
05-09-2012, 01:54 PM
So who enforces the 30 minutes? If we couldn't enforce walking around and randomly checking cooks at 11:00 to see if their meat is parted, how will this be enforced?

Sorry opens up too many cans of worms. Leave the rules alone or learn how to cook pork.


How do you keep me from bringing in 2 briskets- one for the meat inspection and one that is under the ice in my drink cooler, already trimmed, injected and seasoned? What about chicken? Ribs? Pork? Everybody has an enclosed trailer or sidewalls with their tents. The cry-o-vac'ed meat that is inspected could be taken home and frozen...to be thawed on Tuesday for the next contest.




I appreciate the possibility of this. If someone wanted to, they could place some very hot bricks in a pan in their Cambro on the bottom and then place the separated pork meat in a pan above...shut the door and it could be in there much longer that the last half hour before the official pork turn-in time.


Which by the way, that last part should be re-worded... It should really say "no earlier than 30 minutes before the official pork turn-in time."


Rules are for honest folk.

Leatherheadiowa
05-09-2012, 02:01 PM
In my opinion, the rules can be changed for the good or bad and unfortunately it will always come down to self policing. I have been around a while to be able to personally say I have never seen a rep or organizer, or anyone else ask a cook to see inside a cooker at any point. I am not saying it couldn't happen, I just haven't heard or seen it myself. I would venture a guess that any rule change will not effect many people. I like the fact that the rules committee is busy examining rules and taking input!:clap: I am proud to say that Dave Compton, chair of the committee is doing a great job and is honoring his campaign platform. Let's see what happens and be sure to let all the board members know what you are thinking so they can help us ALL.

mobow
05-09-2012, 02:06 PM
My pork is too hot to handle when I"m getting it ready for the box. I think this wording just adds more opportunity for cheaters if they want to use it. keith

Nordy
05-09-2012, 02:14 PM
The KCBS rules, as many "rules," in society are there for those who abide by them. There will always be "ways around" any rule and people who will blatantly cheat. For me, I'm following the KCBS rules to the letter and not looking for ways to walk a fine line between fair competition and cheating.

If I cheated and won... and wasn't caught... that win would have an "*" by it in my mind, and I'm not willing to have that hanging on my conscience.

So should the rule be changed?... probably, at least to make it consistent with the other categoies. Is this "warming" rule the answer? Probably not, it creates even more of an un-enforceable rule where such rule is not necessary.

roksmith
05-09-2012, 02:20 PM
I see no reason for the need to reheat. Part of the difficulty of hitting the turn-in times is getting the meat done just at the right time. We reheat nothing at a competition. It is all still (sometimes painfully) still hot when we put our boxes together.

Jacked UP BBQ
05-09-2012, 02:24 PM
This is a cooking comp, they should allow cooks to cook the meat to the best of their ability as long as the proper fuels are used. The entire parting thing may work for some and may not work for others. Just let us farking cook the best way we know how with legal fuel sources and stop micromanaging stuff because you or your friends cant cook! hahaha

YankeeBBQ
05-09-2012, 02:26 PM
I like the spirit behind it a lot, but would suggest that the grammar be cleaned up a bit. Perhaps something like this:


Once removed from the cooker, the only time the pork may be returned to the cooker (either whole or parted) is for warming purposes. Warming period begins no earlier than 30 minutes prior to the official pork turn-in time.

That wouldn't accurately reflect the rule. At the present time if the pork is whole you can remove it from the cooker and return it to the cooker any time and as often as you want. I don't believe the purpose of the new wording is meant to change that. It's simply meant to give people a chance to turn in piping hot pork. You may be correct that the wording isn't the best and needs to be tweaked.

YankeeBBQ
05-09-2012, 02:32 PM
So who enforces the 30 minutes? If we couldn't enforce walking around and randomly checking cooks at 11:00 to see if their meat is parted, how will this be enforced?

Sorry opens up too many cans of worms. Leave the rules alone or learn how to cook pork.


How does this open up a can of worms ? How is it any less enforceable than the current rule ? Who checks now to make sure there is no parted meat in a cooker ?

I'd like to see the parting rule go away completely but it aint gonna happen. Such is life.

Alexa RnQ
05-09-2012, 02:44 PM
That wouldn't accurately reflect the rule. At the present time if the pork is whole you can remove it from the cooker and return it to the cooker any time and as often as you want. I don't believe the purpose of the new wording is meant to change that. It's simply meant to give people a chance to turn in piping hot pork.

It's meant to give legal sanction to people putting parted pork back in the cooker.

There is no such thing as "piping hot" pork once the box has been walked and waited to be renumbered, shown to 6 judges, and laid on a paper mat for as long as it takes to distribute from 6 boxes.

Scottie
05-09-2012, 02:47 PM
How do you keep me from bringing in 2 briskets- one for the meat inspection and one that is under the ice in my drink cooler, already trimmed, injected and seasoned? What about chicken? Ribs? Pork? Everybody has an enclosed trailer or sidewalls with their tents. The cry-o-vac'ed meat that is inspected could be taken home and frozen...to be thawed on Tuesday for the next contest.




I appreciate the possibility of this. If someone wanted to, they could place some very hot bricks in a pan in their Cambro on the bottom and then place the separated pork meat in a pan above...shut the door and it could be in there much longer that the last half hour before the official pork turn-in time.


Which by the way, that last part should be re-worded... It should really say "no earlier than 30 minutes before the official pork turn-in time."


Rules are for honest folk.



Then why have any rules at all?

HBMTN
05-09-2012, 02:50 PM
I'm curios why there is a rule in the first place? Is it so that if someones pork is not going to be done in time they can not separate to cook faster? If so why is brisket different?

Scottie
05-09-2012, 02:52 PM
How does this open up a can of worms ? How is it any less enforceable than the current rule ? Who checks now to make sure there is no parted meat in a cooker ?

I'd like to see the parting rule go away completely but it aint gonna happen. Such is life.

Change the rule and have a rep pick 5 teams randomly chosen. Reps can walk around and check. Don't change the rule so it gives cheaters a bigger window is all i am saying.

Pigs on Fire
05-09-2012, 02:58 PM
Then why have any rules at all?

Well, it's a competition. There doesn't have to be any rules but having them or a set of boundaries clearly defined attracts more and better competitors.

I don't know about you, but I appreciate known, well-defined rules or boundaries if I am spending my time trying to out-do another competitor.

dmprantz
05-09-2012, 02:58 PM
I'm curios why there is a rule in the first place? Is it so that if someones pork is not going to be done in time they can not separate to cook faster? If so why is brisket different?

I'm sure some one will correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that originally the KCBS pork category was open to any cut of pork. It was later refined to be just shoulder. At that time or shortly after it was also required to weigh at least five pounds. The intent of that rule is because the pork shoulder is a very complex cut with lots of muscles. Allowing small pieces to be cooked independantly would allow cooks to pick the parts that they want to cook and cook just them, going away from the concept of "you cook a shoulder, picnic, or butt." You are not prevented from mostly parting your meat, but it must be connected when cooked, and the original whole pice must have weighed five pounds.

A few years ago a question was raised to the BOD about cooks who cook their pork, sauce it, and then return it to the cooker so that the sauce will "set." While few people argue that wanting "set" sauce on a pork entry is not knowing how to cook pork, I think the general fear is that once that window is opened, you can part your pork and "set sauce" for hours while it continues to cook, getting around the intent of the five pound rule.

dmp

Jorge
05-09-2012, 03:05 PM
Buy stock in Excedrin, I'm buying in bulk lately.

Still Smokin
05-09-2012, 03:05 PM
I was told by an insider that one of the main reasons was to help cookers avoid turning in cold meat.....cold BBQ is not very appetizing.

ique
05-09-2012, 03:16 PM
So who enforces the 30 minutes? If we couldn't enforce walking around and randomly checking cooks at 11:00 to see if their meat is parted, how will this be enforced?

Sorry opens up too many cans of worms. Leave the rules alone or learn how to cook pork.

Who enforces any of the rules? Right now who enforces that no parted pork is put back on the pit? The answer is nobody.

Ultimately its an honor system. If you want to cheat have at it.

Pappy Q
05-09-2012, 03:23 PM
How does this open up a can of worms ? How is it any less enforceable than the current rule ? Who checks now to make sure there is no parted meat in a cooker ?

I'd like to see the parting rule go away completely but it aint gonna happen. Such is life.

So if it's just as unenforceable as the current rule, then why the fark even waste the time. If you'd like to see the current rule go away, then as a BOD make a motion to do that and work to make it happen. I guess I just don't understand the whole political bs....

ique
05-09-2012, 03:27 PM
So if it's just as unenforceable as the current rule, then why the fark even waste the time. .

Because most of us follow the rules. If its against the rules to put parted pork back on the pit, I will not.

However, if I can put brisket and ribs and chicken back on the pit it makes ZERO sense that I cannot do the same with Pork.

I hope KCBS does the right thing and changes this rule.

Podge
05-09-2012, 03:37 PM
but the real question is, can you separate a pork collar and put it back on the pit? :)..

I agree with you chris, make the same rules for all 4 catagories.

boogiesnap
05-09-2012, 03:39 PM
i don't know that it's the best change to the rule, but i do appreciate the effort 100%.

how many would actually even do that? put the pork back on the cooker?

Smoke Ring
05-09-2012, 03:39 PM
Instead of wasting time rewording even more unenforceable rules why not focus some attention on a problem that REALLY affects competition cooks, inconsistent judging?

dmprantz
05-09-2012, 03:43 PM
Instead of wasting time rewording even more unenforceable rules why not focus some attention on a problem that REALLY affects competition cooks, inconsistent judging?

I respectfully submit that this report and suggestion is being offerred by the rules committee. I believe this is specifically what they should be doing. Judging issues would be handled by the CBJ/Judges Committee, who has their own report. I don't think it would be appropriate for one committee to do the job of another committee, but that's me.

dmp

YankeeBBQ
05-09-2012, 03:45 PM
Instead of wasting time rewording even more unenforceable rules why not focus some attention on a problem that REALLY affects competition cooks, inconsistent judging?

Is it inconsistent judging or inconsistent cooking ? The fact that QUAU, Lotta Bull, Pellet Envy etc.. can travel across the country and win an a regular basis suggests that there is some consistency in judging. Is it perfect ? No. Could it be improved ? Probably. If you have any specific ideas about improving the judging system I'd love to hear them. I don't agree that looking at the rules is a waste of time though.

YankeeBBQ
05-09-2012, 03:49 PM
So if it's just as unenforceable as the current rule, then why the fark even waste the time. If you'd like to see the current rule go away, then as a BOD make a motion to do that and work to make it happen. I guess I just don't understand the whole political bs....


Because I don't think it's a waste of farking time. I have to work within the system that's in place. I'm on the rules committee and I made the suggestion that we should just do away with the parting rule. The majority of the committee wasn't in favor of that. The suggestion from the committee that's going to the board is a compromise that represents the concerns of many cooks. It's not a perfect solution but in my opinion it's a step in the right direction.

Babyboomerboy
05-09-2012, 03:52 PM
Rules and like locks, they only keep honest people honest.

Pappy Q
05-09-2012, 03:58 PM
Because I don't think it's a waste of farking time. I have to work within the system that's in place. I'm on the rules committee and I made the suggestion that we should just do away with the parting rule. The majority of the committee wasn't in favor of that. The suggestion from the committee that's going to the board is a compromise that represents the concerns of many cooks. It's not a perfect solution but in my opinion it's a step in the right direction.

Again, I don't understand the politics of it all but replacing one bad rule with another bad rule doesn't seem like progress to me (just my worthless opinion). I hope it is and I hope your right and I hope you keep trying to make something happen, that's why I voted for you. I always have and always will abide by whatever rules there are whether they make sense to me or not.

TooSaucedToPork
05-09-2012, 04:14 PM
I've watched around me as plenty of teams have cheated. Do I say anything, no...that causes all knids of drama, why? Because nothing will be done about it, then I piss the guy next to me off, and then I have a crappy time at the contest with pissed off neighbors.

The only way you could even dream of enforcing the rules is having rules police walk around and watch the teams...that is your only option.

No matter if you change it or not, without the threat of enforcement, only us honest competitors will actually follow them.

Neil

Nordy
05-09-2012, 04:38 PM
Again... rules are for those who follow the rules...

The pork rule could be changed to be consistent with other categories... I've got no problem with that. However, if the point of the current rule is that KCBS defines the "Pork" category as a WHOLE shoulder or WHOLE butt weighing 5lbs or more... then boys (and girls), that's what it is. Cook the WHOLE thing...

If they wanted to, they could define brisket as "a half-flat weighing less than 3 lbs" if they wanted to... and that's what we would all cook... They could easily define it as a "whole packer brisket weighing x number of lbs" as well... and that's what we would cook.

I'm not saying the KCBS definition is right or wrong, but if the INTENT is to define the "pork" category in such a way... then like it or not the current rule does that.

Should there be a "pork police" running around contests? I'd like to think it's not necessary, but if any KCBS rep EVER wants to examine, monitor, hang out and watch at my site, they are more than welcome.

All that being said... a change to a compromise with some random "reheating" rule? Nah... no good. Either get rid of the parting rule or keep it...

(That was way more than $0.02... sorry.)

Nordy

QueNivorous
05-09-2012, 04:44 PM
What am I missing? In brisket we are allowed to separate the point from the flat and return the point to the pit for burnt ends. What value is a rule prohibiting the separation of say the Money Muscle and allowing one to return the rest of the butt to make it easier to pull, etc.. It's not really something we want to do but it would not bother me to see the rule disappear and let people cook that category in their own way just as we do the other three categories. A lot about nothing in my book. Maybe I'm missing something.

jbrink01
05-09-2012, 05:20 PM
Not just no, but FARK NO!!! If you can't cook a whole butt or shoulder, learn or quit. Whole pork shoulder (or butt) IS bbq. KCBS comps are far enough away from real BBQ now. Don't screw it up further.

Scottie
05-09-2012, 05:25 PM
Who enforces any of the rules? Right now who enforces that no parted pork is put back on the pit? The answer is nobody.

Ultimately its an honor system. If you want to cheat have at it.


Instead of enforcing a bad rule with an equally bad rule doesn't make sense. Not that current rules need to be changed. My example is to have reps do it at 11:00. For every 10 teams, the reps will check (computer generated) one team. So if there are 30 teams, check 3 teams. Does it fix all cheating? Well I can tell you if a team is caught and you slap them with a 5 year ban. Teams will play by the rules. No rules need to be changed either. The rule as intended still works. But to say this rule is being changed so judges get hot food? Come on. Next are we going to change the rule so everyone has to turn in food over 140°?

And it an honor system Chris. I adhere to every rule there is. Why? To make it fair for everyone.

G$
05-09-2012, 05:33 PM
Are cooks allowed to trim their Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder that is greater than 5 pounds before placing it on the cooker?

How much trimming is allowed?

dmprantz
05-09-2012, 05:35 PM
The thing I find most ironic about this thread and so many others is how quick some people are to condemn without thinking things through. It's very easy to say that some one wants to cheat by reheating meat in a cooker, but what about the rule itself? I know for a fact that there are teams out there that isolate a butt into 4 or 5 individual muscles. These muscles have "external" fat and connective tissue removed and then get seasoned and cooked distinct from the other portions. The entirety of the butt which isn't thrown away is attached, and it gets added to and removed from the cooker at the same time, but cooking these muscles isolated like this is an obvious (to me) violation of the spirit and intent of the 5 lb and parting rules. Much more so than setting sauce on meat which has already been cooked.

I'm not suggesting that the cooks who do this cheat. It's plainly within the letter of the rules to trim this way, but it's the intent that you have to think about. I'm also not suggesting that we try to make a rule preventing it because that would truly be a can of worms: "I can't trim my pork butt, but I can trim my brisket, ribs and chicken?" or "I can only trim from the outside of the meat but not the inside (like my chicken)?" or "How do you draw the line between what I can and can't trim?" I'm just saying that some of the negative opinions on this appear to be mis-directed.

dmp

QueNivorous
05-09-2012, 05:35 PM
[QUOTE= If you can't cook a whole butt or shoulder, learn or quit.[/QUOTE]

Really? If I thought for one minute you knew how to cook it and could teach it I'd take your class. Take a blood pressure pill!

dmprantz
05-09-2012, 05:37 PM
Are cooks allowed to trim their Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder that is greater than 5 pounds before placing it on the cooker?

How much trimming is allowed?

yes. The single "hunk of beast" must be 5 lb or greater when placed on the cooker. Any pieces which weigh less than that when placed on the cooker are not legal. Shrinkage doesn't matter. This proposed rule change says that within 30 minutes of turn in, any size of beast may be returned to the cooker.

dmp

Slamdunkpro
05-09-2012, 05:39 PM
If you're going to do away with the pork parting rule you turn it into a money muscle cooking contest. If you do that you might as well do away with the brisket weight rule so people can cut out slices and pre cube the point so they can cook them quick. Then you can just make the contests one day events.

I agree with Scottie, enforce the rule we have.

dmprantz
05-09-2012, 05:42 PM
If you're going to do away with the pork parting rule you turn it into a money muscle cooking contest. If you do that you might as well do away with the brisket weight rule so people can cut out slices and pre cube the point so they can cook them quick.

What brisket weight rule? As far as I know, what you describe with brisket is legal, and there are already teams who isolate the pectoral and other muscles on the butt. They just leave token attachments.

dmp

Smokedelic
05-09-2012, 05:44 PM
Usually BBQ drama like this is saved for the off-season. Kind of refreshing to see it in May instead of November.

landarc
05-09-2012, 05:47 PM
If it is consistency of rules, why not change the brisket rule, so that the brisket can no longer be removed, parted and returned. That all meats must be cooked whole, as inspected, minus surface trim only?

G$
05-09-2012, 05:57 PM
yes. The single "hunk of beast" must be 5 lb or greater when placed on the cooker. Any pieces which weigh less than that when placed on the cooker are not legal. Shrinkage doesn't matter. This proposed rule change says that within 30 minutes of turn in, any size of beast may be returned to the cooker.

dmp

I am not sure you understood my meaning ... but OK.

Podge
05-09-2012, 06:19 PM
I love my wife.. she is the voice of reason in the Moonswiners camp.. I tell her about this thread and she says... "Why in the hell do you need to put pork back on the smoker to warm it back up?.. must not have been holding it right to begin with.. glad I'm not a judge!"

Big Poppa
05-09-2012, 06:29 PM
I want scottie to teach me how to cook pork and leave the rules...Scottie is my hero! hehehehe I still have that pic Scottie so choose your response carefully!

ique
05-09-2012, 06:46 PM
Not just no, but FARK NO!!! If you can't cook a whole butt or shoulder, learn or quit. Whole pork shoulder (or butt) IS bbq. KCBS comps are far enough away from real BBQ now. Don't screw it up further.

The new rule does require you to cook the whole shoulder to doneness. It simply also allows a cook to keep meat warm on the pit before turn-in

ique
05-09-2012, 06:48 PM
If you're going to do away with the pork parting rule you turn it into a money muscle cooking contest. If you do that you might as well do away with the brisket weight rule so people can cut out slices and pre cube the point so they can cook them quick. Then you can just make the contests one day events.

I agree with Scottie, enforce the rule we have.

It already is a money muscle cooking contest.

jbrink01
05-09-2012, 06:57 PM
Really? If I thought for one minute you knew how to cook it and could teach it I'd take your class. Take a blood pressure pill!

Really? Not only is that un-called for but rather myopic in nature. While my post was admittedly bold in nature it attacked no one's skill or ability, it simply stated that the rule existed so we as teams should play by them, albeit in a vociferous manner.

With respect to my class, I doubt I'll have another. With respect to my blood pressure, I do take a pill. Respect, now there's a thought!

jbrink01
05-09-2012, 07:22 PM
The new rule does require you to cook the whole shoulder to doneness. It simply also allows a cook to keep meat warm on the pit before turn-in

You are correct. My mistake. I do feel it makes cheating easier for those that choose to do it as a plainly seperated money muscle hours prior to turn in is not cause for concern any longer.

RangerJ
05-09-2012, 07:32 PM
Really? Not only is that un-called for but rather myopic in nature. While my post was admittedly bold in nature it attacked no one's skill or ability, it simply stated that the rule existed so we as teams should play by them, albeit in a vociferous manner.


Well, no it kind of attacks everyone's skill or ability. Learn ( mentioned twice in this thread by the way) makes the assumption that all who would support this don't know how and should consider quitting. A bold painted stroke indeed.

And by the way, the entire country does not share your thoughts of this particular meat being BBQ. Hard to believe, I know.

I only cook one butt anyway and find no need to part it prior to turn in and honestly don't give two sh*ts about the folks who cheat. They are all around, rules or no rules.

swamprb
05-09-2012, 07:36 PM
Snake River Farms is not making any money on 5 lb.Pork Collars

jbrink01
05-09-2012, 07:45 PM
Well, no it kind of attacks everyone's skill or ability. Learn ( mentioned twice in this thread by the way) makes the assumption that all who would support this don't know how and should consider quitting. A bold painted stroke indeed.

And by the way, the entire country does not share your thoughts of this particular meat being BBQ. Hard to believe, I know.

I only cook one butt anyway and find no need to part it prior to turn in and honestly don't give two sh*ts about the folks who cheat. They are all around, rules or no rules.

Thankyou for showing me the error of my hasty post. I suspect it would have been more appropriate for me to suggest that in my opinion, a whole butt or shoulder is the definition of what I believe to be BBQ and that the successful cooking of same was something that had to be mastered, at least to some degree, in order to be succesful in KCBS. Your point is well taken about those that cheat and you are right, they will always exist. I do however give two sh*ts about them if only on principal that they agreed to abide by the same rules I do. We may disagree, but I appreciate the manner in which you did it.

QueNivorous
05-09-2012, 07:47 PM
Really? Not only is that un-called for but rather myopic in nature. While my post was admittedly bold in nature it attacked no one's skill or ability, it simply stated that the rule existed so we as teams should play by them, albeit in a vociferous manner.

With respect to my class, I doubt I'll have another. With respect to my blood pressure, I do take a pill. Respect, now there's a thought!

Un-called for? No, re-read your post. Suggesting we "learn or quit" was argumentative and a lot of BS. It suggests you know all and those who disagree with you should quit. A fools position!

Respect is something you earn. You've earned none here.

jbrink01
05-09-2012, 07:57 PM
I agree that it was strong wording. But I'll also stand by my conviction that as competition cooks we only have the 2 choices of learning or quitting. If we do neither then we merely stagnate and donate to those that continue to hone their skills. I for one can cook at home a whole bunch cheaper if I'm not at least trying to get better. We are starting to sound like a couple of school kids here, so before the mod's tell us to go to our rooms....................

QueNivorous
05-09-2012, 08:03 PM
I agree that it was strong wording. But I'll also stand by my conviction that as competition cooks we only have the 2 choices of learning or quitting. If we do neither then we merely stagnate and donate to those that continue to hone their skills. I for one can cook at home a whole bunch cheaper if I'm not at least trying to get better. We are starting to sound like a couple of school kids here, so before the mod's tell us to go to our rooms....................

Agreed! I think all of us are constantly honing our skills and trying to improve. We are obviously both very competitive folks. Truce.

Sledneck
05-09-2012, 08:37 PM
I like the new wording. I dont get some of the "learn to cook pork" comments. Last month I did a contest (not kcbs) where parting was allowed . I took first. I barely used any money muscle . It was my process and parting and putting it back on for 20 minutes before turn on is what worked for me. So was parting my final product an example of not knowing how to cook pork?

BBQchef33
05-09-2012, 09:23 PM
i suggested the rule change use similar wording to brethren rules where we say it must start at 5 lbs, be cooked whole to a safe temperature, and then cooks can do anything they want.... OR just eliminate the parting limitations. Treat pork the same as brisket.. But I was outvoted along with yankeebbq.

I believe the intention is to allow reheating, but not the ability to cook further. Unless you have a microwave magnatron in your pit, returning a parted piece to the pit for 25 minutes will do nothing but set sauce pr bark. Realistically, how much cooking can be done in 25 minutes by returning it to the pit? If you need that to do anything more than warm it up, or set sauce or bark, you need to rethink your timing.

jbrink01
05-09-2012, 09:40 PM
I like the new wording. I dont get some of the "learn to cook pork" comments. Last month I did a contest (not kcbs) where parting was allowed . I took first. I barely used any money muscle . It was my process and parting and putting it back on for 20 minutes before turn on is what worked for me. So was parting my final product an example of not knowing how to cook pork?

Not at all. What I was trying quite unsuccessfully to convey was that we should improve our skills to be competitive within the current rule structure instead of changing the rules.

Sledneck
05-09-2012, 09:40 PM
i Realistically, how much cooking can be done in 25 minutes by returning it to the pit? If you need that to do anything more than warm it up, or set sauce or bark, you need to rethink your timing.

what's wrong with setting sauce? What does that have to do with timing!

Scottie
05-09-2012, 09:58 PM
I want scottie to teach me how to cook pork and leave the rules...Scottie is my hero! hehehehe I still have that pic Scottie so choose your response carefully!


I'll save you a seat at the next class!!! Look at what it did for Quau's pork..Pork team of year last 2 years... (he'll read this)... ;)

BigBobBQ
05-09-2012, 09:59 PM
I think the Phoobah was saying it is fine for setting sauce and there is nothing wrong with doing that but he was saying that if you were trying to use that 30 minutes to finish the cook instead of just reheating your cooked butt or as you said setting the sauce you need to adjust your cooking times to finish sooner to be able to use the time for what they are hoping it will be intended for, or that was my take on what he was saying but I may be wrong just my interpretation.

jbrink01
05-09-2012, 10:00 PM
Realistically, how much cooking can be done in 25 minutes by returning it to the pit? If you need that to do anything more than warm it up, or set sauce or bark, you need to rethink your timing.

I can take a smoked yet underdone and very moist muscle, money or otherwise, and complete it in 25 minutes while caramelizing a glaze on it. Sliced of course.

YankeeBBQ
05-09-2012, 10:04 PM
You can all go back to your normally scheduled programming.... The motion was defeated. That is all.

Sledneck
05-09-2012, 10:06 PM
You can all go back to your normally scheduled programming.... The motion was defeated. That is all.

Awesome!:rolleyes:


Yawn

Nordy
05-09-2012, 10:13 PM
Defeated... great...

So now... should we discuss pork collar? Or pellet cookers? Or using gas and electric? How about continuing education for judges? Or Team of the Year standings?

How about we all just go out this weekend and have fun, compete, and return here next week with bragging rights or new creative excuses...

I like these "political debates" as long as they stay civil!

BBQchef33
05-09-2012, 10:17 PM
what's wrong with setting sauce? What does that have to do with timing!

I think the Phoobah was saying it is fine for setting sauce and there is nothing wrong with doing that but he was saying that if you were trying to use that 30 minutes to finish the cook instead of just reheating your cooked butt or as you said setting the sauce you need to adjust your cooking times to finish sooner to be able to use the time for what they are hoping it will be intended for, or that was my take on what he was saying but I may be wrong just my interpretation.

^^^^
yup.. thanks..

BBQchef33
05-09-2012, 10:19 PM
Defeated... great...

So now... should we discuss pork collar? Or pellet cookers? Or using gas and electric? How about continuing education for judges? Or Team of the Year standings?

How about we all just go out this weekend and have fun, compete, and return here next week with bragging rights or new creative excuses...

I like these "political debates" as long as they stay civil!

u forgot about the 'ditch the lettuce' campaign too. :biggrin1:

YankeeBBQ
05-09-2012, 10:23 PM
u forgot about the 'ditch the lettuce' campaign too. :biggrin1:

And the proper spelling of barbecue, bbq, barbeque, Bar-B-Q.................

Nordy
05-09-2012, 10:40 PM
How could I forget GARNISH!

http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/greenleaflettuce.jpg

Jorge
05-09-2012, 10:56 PM
And the proper spelling of barbecue, bbq, barbeque, Bar-B-Q.................

Where's Sully?

JD McGee
05-09-2012, 11:15 PM
Oh for cryin' out loud...just learn how to cook the damn thing on time...:blabla:

Sledneck
05-09-2012, 11:18 PM
Oh for cryin' out loud...just learn how to cook the damn thing on time...:blabla:

Welocme

BBQchef33
05-09-2012, 11:22 PM
:pound: :pound:

JD McGee
05-09-2012, 11:51 PM
You can all go back to your normally scheduled programming.... The motion was defeated. That is all.

Well...that's a thread killer for sure...:mrgreen:

JD McGee
05-10-2012, 12:24 AM
Welocme

LMAO...hey...I read the first post...:becky:

Sledneck
05-10-2012, 05:42 AM
LMAO...hey...I read the first post...:becky:

I think you should now share with all of us your pork recipe:mrgreen:

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 06:33 AM
we should improve our skills to be competitive within the current rule structure instead of changing the rules.

That's a great theory except that the current rules are themselves a product of change and enterpretation. The KCBS Pork category wasn't always shoulder, and up until 2009 setting sauce wasn't necessarily considered parting. I'm not saying it was legal, but teams did it without getting DQed. I think that rather than stick our collective heads in the sand refuse to ever change and adapt, KCBS should be looking for ways to improve and refine the ruleset.

dmp

jbrink01
05-10-2012, 07:21 AM
My work here is done..........Have a great weekend everyone!

Smoke'n Ice
05-10-2012, 07:32 AM
h. Meat that is cooked, properly cooled, and later reheated
for hot holding and serving shall be reheated so that all
parts of the food reach a temperature of at least 165° F
for a minimum of 15 seconds.

This is rule 15, paragraph h. It says that we must return all meat to the heat source to bring it to temperature for service (judges are the recipients) to abide by the ServSafe requirements and local health ordinances if the meat has been cooled by these same rules.

By rule we can do this to all the categories except pork. I guess when a judge gets sick or a contest gets shut down by the local health department, we’ll see a change.

I just see a minor discrepancy in the way things are written.

Mack

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 07:40 AM
By rule we can do this to all the categories except pork.


To be fair, you can still do it with pork, but the pork must be whole, or as whole as it was when it entered th cooker. In other words, if you part your pork before turn in time, you best either keep it hot or serve it cold.

dmp

Alexa RnQ
05-10-2012, 08:49 AM
I'm not saying it was legal, but teams did it without getting DQed. I think that rather than stick our collective heads in the sand refuse to ever change and adapt
Wow. Just because no one was caught or punished for breaking rules is no good reason to condone and continue the practice.
Rather than stick their collective heads in the sand and refuse to ever change and adapt, cooks should learn to cook within the rules.

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 09:35 AM
I feel as though you've mis-characterized what I said. While I was not a particularly active cook when this happened (I had a total of 3 KCBS comps under my belt) and I've never used this technique, it's my impression from conversations here on The Brethren that it was widely believed by cook teams and reps alike that placing fully cooked pieces of pork on a smoker just before turn-ins was not considered parting pork until a BOD decision clarified it. Based on that, I'd hesitate to say that any one was breaking rules or deserved punishment, just as I'd hesitate to say that it was 100% legal. If any one who was active then would like to share stories supporting or refuting that, I'd welcome them.

I haven't read of any cooks in this thread (or the others) refusing to follow the rules and adapt to them. That doesn't mean that they are "sticking their heads in the sand" when they support change.

dmp

Alexa RnQ
05-10-2012, 09:43 AM
it's my impression from conversations here on The Brethren that it was widely believed by cook teams and reps alike that placing fully cooked pieces of pork on a smoker just before turn-ins was not considered parting pork until a BOD decision clarified it.

I believe this to be a fundamental misunderstanding. Within the past 5 years, I have never been under the impression that returning parted pork to the smoker was permitted. It was not a widespread enough belief to have made it to this side of the country, where most teams have been following the rule as written. Apparently, clarification must have been required for those who didn't realize that making the pork into pieces was "parting".

I haven't read of any cooks in this thread (or the others) refusing to follow the rules and adapt to them. That doesn't mean that they are "sticking their heads in the sand" when they support change.

Is that so. I've seen posts on this board, in pork-parting discussions in years past, where cooks have said that because they think the rule is stupid they'd continue to cook as they liked.

Scottie
05-10-2012, 09:48 AM
where most teams have been following the rule as written.


Can you define "most"??? :grin:


I never thought about throwing pulled or sliced back on either. Would have been breaking a rule.

Alexa RnQ
05-10-2012, 09:56 AM
Can you define "most"??? :grin:
As a very smart cop in California told me, "You don't go to all the trouble to figure out how to be sneaky and then only do it the once." :razz:

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 10:07 AM
I've seen posts on this board, in pork-parting discussions in years past, where cooks have said that because they think the rule is stupid they'd continue to cook as they liked.

I don't remember reading any such posts. It doesn't mean that they didn't happen, just that I don't remember them. Obviously at this point, any one who knowingly says that they intend to break a rule in that fashion should have his pit inspected, and maybe even have entry into competitions refused.

As for the pork parting rule in general, hindsight is always 20/20, but consider a few questions before teams are castigated over what could have been honest mid-interpretations:

The current KCBS rules prohibit electric heating elements while meat is on the cooker. Cooks who use Traeger pellet cookers can't always prevent that though, as if there is a break in power, however brief, the hot rod igniter will be enabled for four minutes whether it is needed or not. I've called into the KCBS office on this question and was told that as of now, as long as there is a fire in the pit, the hot rod is not a violation. If the BOD makes a ruling on this and decides that all igniters must be unplugged to prevent an electric heating source, does that mean that all past competitors were cheating?

The current KCBS rules prohibit corned beef, however it is my understanding that it is not against the rules to use a curing agent to provide an artificial smoke ring on brisket. (My CBJ instructor indicated it was legal). Should the BOD make a decision that corning and curing are the same thing and that a partially cured piece of brisket is a corned beef, so curing agents are illegal, does that mean that all people who use that technique now are cheating and should be punished?

The current KCBS rules prohibit deep frying, however there are teams out there that cook their chicken submerged in butter, margarine, and other fats. The temperature is low enough that I believe the meats are not truly being fried, but should the BOD make a decision that the rule applies to any meat partially or completely submerged in fat, regardless of the temperature (e.g. oil poaching), does that mean that teams who are doing this now should are worthy of being punished?

I don't specifically support or use any of the above techniques (well, I used to have a Traeger controller), but they are used today. I think it's very, very difficult to create a ruleset which identifies and answers every question and every scenario. That is why rules exist and why they are reviewed and refined as time goes on. Personally as a cook, I do everything in my power to follow the rules and wouldn't dream of breaking them, but when something appears that it may or may not be legal, I don't have a problem asking a rep, the KCBS office, or the BOD to clarify. Maybe that differentiates me from other cooks out there.

I posted this because I thought it would be interesting to see how it played out and I thought others would want to know. Obviously, it didn't pass, and like most cooks, I'll go on following the rules, but being told that the rules shouldn't ever be reviewed, revised, or questioned doesn't fit my personality.

dmp

JD McGee
05-10-2012, 10:10 AM
Even way out here in PNWBA land we know that parted pork is not allowed back on the smoker...for any reason. That's why we all have these newfangled insulated things to hold it for awhile before turn in...:boxing:

YankeeBBQ
05-10-2012, 10:16 AM
If any one who was active then would like to share stories supporting or refuting that, I'd welcome them.



I used to put my pulled pork and money muscle back on the cooker to reheat it and set the sauce. I never thought I was breaking any rule. You can do it with every other meat. When the rule change came out I stopped doing it. And I believe it was a rule change.

I would love to be able to go back to doing that but obviously it's not in the cards. For all those saying 'Learn to Cook' I've gotten first place trophies in pork since the change including 1st at the GAB and Second at the Royal.

JayAre
05-10-2012, 12:16 PM
You can all go back to your normally scheduled programming.... The motion was defeated. That is all.

can almost guarentee we havnt heard the last of this one...stay tuned :hand:

Jorge
05-10-2012, 12:21 PM
can almost guarentee we havnt heard the last of this one...stay tuned :hand:

Speaking solely for myself, and not for KCBS or the board....

The motion was made, discussed, and not approved.

I believe that there are other issues that need attention, before this one is revisited.

I'm not going to campaign one way or the other.

jbrink01
05-10-2012, 12:22 PM
For all those saying 'Learn to Cook' I've gotten first place trophies in pork since the change including 1st at the GAB and Second at the Royal.

My point exactly. Working under the rules as they are you won. Simple as that. You didn't cheat and you didnt change the rules. You figured out how to do it. I wish I could claim 2nd at the AR, but 13th TOY Pork and a few 1st place porks is my best effort to date. Kudos to you sir.

Smoke Ring
05-10-2012, 12:37 PM
Is it inconsistent judging or inconsistent cooking ? The fact that QUAU, Lotta Bull, Pellet Envy etc.. can travel across the country and win an a regular basis suggests that there is some consistency in judging. Is it perfect ? No. Could it be improved ? Probably. If you have any specific ideas about improving the judging system I'd love to hear them. I don't agree that looking at the rules is a waste of time though.

Inconsistent judging. I'm talking about 4 judges giving all 8s and 9s and two judges giving 6s and 7s. If it was chicken or ribs you might say one or two pieces weren't consistent with the rest in the box, but the last time this happened with me was brisket. When one judge gives 999, and another gives 767 according to my definition, that's inconsistent.

Yes, the teams you mention do a lot of contests and win consistently but they don't win every time. If you are a good cook and you cook a lot of contests you are going to win part of the time, but they have also been victim to the kind of judging I'm referring to. But if you only do a few contests a year, like most competition cooks, then you are throwing your hat into a lottery as to which table your entry will be judged. That, more than cooking skill can determine whether you win or lose. Cooking ability should count as much as luck.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Maybe inconsistent scoring judges, whether high or low, should have to discuss how they arrived at the score and defend their scores to the rest of the table. Maybe the whole scoring system should be re-evaluated. There should be a better way of judging the quality of an entry other than the whims of one or two judges. Two judges giving low scores overrule the four judges who gave consistent, higher scores. Was the entry at the next table over that didn't have the two low scoring really better than the entry that was scored low by two judges but praised by the other four? Whatever the answer is, luck should not be a factor in judging the quality of a competition entry.

Garry

Smoke Ring
05-10-2012, 12:41 PM
By the way, you admitted that the system isn't perfect and could probably be improved. If that's the case then why doesn't KCBS spend some time on it and improve it? Do something that benefits the members instead of the corporate sponsors for a change.

TooSaucedToPork
05-10-2012, 12:55 PM
Because no matter how many people say it isn't true, KCBS is a good ole boys club that is stuck in the past and will not look to the future until it is staring them in the face and it is too late.

Most BBQ organizations are like this...

The only way to fix it would be to put very specific rules to everything, which would piss alot of people off, which would reduce the numbers of KCBS members.

So we have to have very vague language that really isn't enforceable by anyone so that we don't cause people to run away.

Change is scary, Alot of BBQr's are Alpha's, Alpha's like to change things their way...thus why we have these crazy rants on here

:becky:just my 2 cents:becky:

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 01:02 PM
thus why we have these crazy rants on here

There's no need to call me crazy....

dmp

TooSaucedToPork
05-10-2012, 01:28 PM
There's no need to call me crazy....

dmp

Wasn't directed at you brother Rantz, was just a generalized crazy rants statement...not a "Crazy Rantz" statement :becky:

We all get REALLY passionate and every month or so we all go on crazy rants...just the nature of BBQr's

Podge
05-10-2012, 01:57 PM
Wasn't directed at you brother Rantz, was just a generalized crazy rants statement...not a "Crazy Rantz" statement :becky:

We all get REALLY passionate and every month or so we all go on crazy rants...just the nature of BBQr's

One thing I think we're all guilty of, is either not writing what we really mean, and people mis-reading what we wrote or what we intended to write. I believe that all of us in this thread are all good decent people, (hell, I think I've met half these people on this thread in person) and if we were all sitting around a big round table, all of our intentions, thoughts, etc. would have been the same, but conveyed and interpereted differently and probably correctly. This forum and others are great, but at times can be difficult to comprehend people.

In saying all this, I hope I made sense !:loco:

Slamdunkpro
05-10-2012, 02:06 PM
The only way to fix it would be to put very specific rules to everything, which would piss alot of people off, which would reduce the numbers of KCBS members.

So we have to have very vague language that really isn't enforceable by anyone so that we don't cause people to run away.
Call me crazy, but I disagree just a little (yes the rules are vague). If you want immediate change, just start enforcing the rules we have now. Nothing would level the playing field faster than contest officials spot checking cookers / trailers / coolers / cambros at random on the morning of turn-ins.

TooSaucedToPork
05-10-2012, 02:14 PM
Call me crazy, but I disagree just a little (yes the rules are vague). If you want immediate change, just start enforcing the rules we have now. Nothing would level the playing field faster than contest officials spot checking cookers / trailers / coolers / cambros at random on the morning of turn-ins.


I agree, enforce the rules now...but some of the rules we have are vague enough that you can argue your way right out of a violation.
How many different interpretations on parting are expressed right here in this thread, and that is just one rule. If a rep came up and told someone they were breaking a rule and DQ'ed them, would it be the rep's interpretation of that rule or an explaination in black and white of how that rule was violated...

Not disagreeing with ya, just playing devils advocate.

Only way to enforce something is for it to be ironclad, so that someone doesn't get a DQ on an interpretation of law rather than letter of the law

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 02:20 PM
I agree Neil. I posted a few other rules earlier, and that was my point. Lots of ways to enterpret things. That's why there are advisories, and that's part of why rules are reviewed and changed over time. I guess the next step would be to incorporate the advisories into the printed rules, but that's a different thread :)

dmp

Jorge
05-10-2012, 02:39 PM
Call me crazy, but I disagree just a little (yes the rules are vague). If you want immediate change, just start enforcing the rules we have now. Nothing would level the playing field faster than contest officials spot checking cookers / trailers / coolers / cambros at random on the morning of turn-ins.


ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, WITH NO QUESTION, speaking for myself and not for KCBS or the board....

If we really want to take it seriously cooks need to step up. If you see a violation you can talk to the alleged offender about it, and if there is no resolution call a Rep then and there.

I've had multiple calls about 'this or that', on the day after a contest. I always ask a couple of questions. "Did you call a Rep?", and the universal answer is "NO". "Did you file a critique, or will you?", and the almost universal answer is "NO".

If a cook sees something that is suspect, that they believe should be investigated how is it reasonable to expect that to be done after the alleged offender is packed up and at home?

My personal .02

Slamdunkpro
05-10-2012, 02:42 PM
I agree, enforce the rules now...but some of the rules we have are vague enough that you can argue your way right out of a violation.
How many different interpretations on parting are expressed right here in this thread, and that is just one rule. If a rep came up and told someone they were breaking a rule and DQ'ed them, would it be the rep's interpretation of that rule or an explaination in black and white of how that rule was violated...

Not disagreeing with ya, just playing devils advocate.

Only way to enforce something is for it to be ironclad, so that someone doesn't get a DQ on an interpretation of law rather than letter of the law
Really?
Take the pork rule - "Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker."

Translation - you have to cook one of these cuts that weighs at least 5lbs when it goes in the cooker. You can't cut it up while cooking it and you can't put it back in the cooker once you cut it up - PERIOD. Clearly the spirit of the rule is you gotta cook a whole big chunk O pig.

It's pretty straight forward. Official looks in your cooker and there's a money muscle by itself or a pan of pulled pork or slices or a carved up half butt I don't see you getting out of that one. The rep is the absolute authority at a contest when it comes to rules violations.

This shouldn't be a game of defining what "is" is. If a competitor is angle shooting / scheming to that point then they need a trip to the woodshed. We're all adults with IQ's over 50 and we all know damn well what the rule is and what it means. The competitors that are pushing the rules envelope need some paper cuts:boxing:

Slamdunkpro
05-10-2012, 02:54 PM
ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, WITH NO QUESTION, speaking for myself and not for KCBS or the board....
Don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel!:caked:

If we really want to take it seriously cooks need to step up. If you see a violation you can talk to the alleged offender about it, and if there is no resolution call a Rep then and there.
No! It's not the competitors job or their place to police their neighbor and fellow competitor. Organizers sign a contract and pay KCBS (at KCBS events) to ensure a fair contest and to ensure the rules are followed. The KCBS rep is the enforcement vehicle of that contract. They need to get up off their butts, out of their golf carts and do more than just ride the clock around on turn in morning.

I see your .02$ and raise $1:mrgreen:

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 02:59 PM
I agree with you both. It is the reps' job to enforce rules, but they can't be in all places at all times. If you see something wrong, let the rep know. I'm sure it will vary from rep to rep, but in my very recent experience, they will do whatever they can to make it right. It will go to the right people.

dmp

EDIT: To be clear, I am saying IF YOU NOTICE SOMETHING tell the rep. No one who isn't a rep should be going around looking for violations just so you can call some one a cheater. There's too much of that in some spaces.

TooSaucedToPork
05-10-2012, 03:17 PM
Really?
Take the pork rule - "Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker."

Translation - you have to cook one of these cuts that weighs at least 5lbs when it goes in the cooker. You can't cut it up while cooking it and you can't put it back in the cooker once you cut it up - PERIOD. Clearly the spirit of the rule is you gotta cook a whole big chunk O pig.

It's pretty straight forward. Official looks in your cooker and there's a money muscle by itself or a pan of pulled pork or slices or a carved up half butt I don't see you getting out of that one. The rep is the absolute authority at a contest when it comes to rules violations.

This shouldn't be a game of defining what "is" is. If a competitor is angle shooting / scheming to that point then they need a trip to the woodshed. We're all adults with IQ's over 50 and we all know damn well what the rule is and what it means. The competitors that are pushing the rules envelope need some paper cuts:boxing:

Ahhh - but cutting it into pieces with little joining pieces of flesh BEFORE the cooking process is completely legal, it is "one whole piece"

Now what if some of those little joining pieces cook away, or snap do to handling, has the team broken the rules...

The Arguement:

Rep: Your pork is not Whole, it had to have been "separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker."

Cook: My pork was seperated into 5 flaps before the cooking process, and cooked whole and connected, it was not seperated during or after the cooking...

Rep: Prove it

Cook: I can't

Rep: DQ

Cook: I followed the rules to the letter. WT FARK!!!


So who is right?

Jorge
05-10-2012, 03:22 PM
No! It's not the competitors job or their place to police their neighbor and fellow competitor. Organizers sign a contract and pay KCBS (at KCBS events) to ensure a fair contest and to ensure the rules are followed. The KCBS rep is the enforcement vehicle of that contract. They need to get up off their butts, out of their golf carts and do more than just ride the clock around on turn in morning.

I see your .02$ and raise $1:mrgreen:

The math is pretty simple. The ratios is 12.5:1 for cooks and reps. The critical time you mentioned for inspection is currently used for prep for judging, a judges meeting etc.... Without adding additional cost to the organizer and teams you'll be hard pressed to have inspections at smaller contests.

If a competitor chooses not to discuss an issue with another team and simply call a rep, that's fine. The bottom line is that teams/cooks need to take some ownership of the issue as well. I believe there is an obligation there. Not just to the individual but the entire field. Sucks to be me or somebody else that misses a call because another team didn't want to get involved when they saw somebody cheating.

It's a two way street.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-10-2012, 04:52 PM
If you had read your Bullsheet or read it online, here is the report for March 2012.


KCBS BOD MINUTES FROM MARCH 2012


RULES COMMITTEE REPORT: Dave Compton
We’ve spent the past month getting our committee put together, choosing members and getting a sense of where we want to go with our committee this year. We have tried to get a geographical balance on the committee and for the most part I think that we’ve succeeded. We have also opened up the committee membership beyond just the Board, we have four Board members and four regular KCBS members along with Carolyn and Candy.

Our major goal this year is to simplify and clarify our rules. We want everyone to be on the same page when it comes to the rules, their meaning and what happens when they are violated. We intend to examine each rule to see if it can be made more plain, more fair and if it can realistically be enforced.

We would also like to have the general membership contact us with their ideas on rule changes, clarifications or additions. They can send an e-mail to: rules@kcbs.us and it will go to all of the Rules Committee members.

The current Rules Committee membership is:
Dave Compton, Chair, Iowa
Jeff Stith, Co-Chair, Missouri
George Mullins, Co-Chair, Texas
Steve Farrin, Co-Chair, Massachusetts
Carolyn Wells, Executive Director & Candy Weaver, President
Neil Strawder, California
Phil Rizzardi, New York
Mike Wozniak, Illinois
Bill Moon, North Carolina

Rules will be brought before the BOD as they are reviewed, rather than presenting all in one meeting.

Dave made a motion that the names of all members of all the committees be posted on the KCBS website. Seconded by Paul Kirk, the motion passed unanimously.

Dave made a motion that the names of all members of all the committees be posted in the Bullsheet in May and November of each year. Seconded by Paul Kirk, the motion passed unanimousl


Now, if you have any suggestions, recommendations, or ideas.... why not submit it to the rules committee instead of ranting about it after a suggestion has been brought up and something has been hashed about for a month with the board trying to make it easier to understand the rules. I myself have had some misunderstandings with the wording on some and yes, I will be submitting some as we go along. Will they all be changed, probably not, will they all be passed with the BOD, probably not. BUT, we must at least try to make it easier to read and understand the rules. Will everyone abide by them??? That is the real question. Some will try to push it to the limit... just like the speed limit (which is technically a rule). So how many of you obey that one???? We all tend to push it to the limit in hopes of not getting caught... admit it, you have done it too.

From what I understand, the reason the "parting" rule was implemented was teams were basically parting out the money muscle, cooking it to "perfection" and turning it in.... is that real BBQ? So, a change had to be made.

Is this a perfect world? No way. Changes will come, and changes will go. Will we all like them? NO... but we must adhere to them.

So, for now, let's move on and keep doing what we do best.

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 05:29 PM
Neil Strawder, California
Phil Rizzardi, New York
Mike Wozniak, Illinois

Wasn't aware of that. Thanks!

dmp

Smoke'n Ice
05-10-2012, 05:37 PM
Actually the parting rule came about because of using pork tenderloin. Also the BOD, several eons ago, declared that the igniter rod on the Traegers, FE's, etc. were not a heat source as someone early on alluded to.
Mack

smoke-n-my-i's
05-10-2012, 05:45 PM
Actually the parting rule came about because of using pork tenderloin. Also the BOD, several eons ago, declared that the igniter rod on the Traegers, FE's, etc. were not a heat source as someone early on alluded to.
Mack

so, were the rules "bent" and this brought on the changes to the rules back then????

So, the way I see it, if the rules are being "bent", then changes are on the way.... just like speeding... sooner or later you will get caught and get a ticket....

smoke-n-my-i's
05-10-2012, 05:49 PM
Wasn't aware of that. Thanks!

dmp

Neil Strawder, California
Phil Rizzardi, New York
Mike Wozniak, Illinois
Bill Moon, North Carolina

BTW, we were recommended and asked to be on the committee to "help" hash out some of the ideas, etc... as a representative from each region.... along with the rest of the gang.... :becky:

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 05:55 PM
Actually the parting rule came about because of using pork tenderloin.

How are using an illegal cut of meat and isolating small portions of a legal cut of meat even on the same plane of existance? That literally makes no sense. I was told the restriction to shoulder had to do with tenderloin, and the 5 lb and parting rules to do with choice muscle isolation.

Also the BOD, several eons ago, declared that the igniter rod on the Traegers, FE's, etc. were not a heat source as someone early on alluded to.

That's what people in this forum have claimed several times, but that's not what the KCBS office says. Even if the BOD did find that, it's not true. The hot rod in a Traeger is very much a heat source. Touch one some time. It may not affect things much, but it's a heat source. Some one once told me that an FEC's ignighter has about as much current as a 9v battery, but a Traeger hot rod glows red hot! I was told "It's not going to make a difference and no one's going to know anyway." I kid you not.

Even if I'm wrong about everything regarding the igniter hot rod, find me the official rule, rep advisory, or BOD notes which make them legal. I shouldn't have to look for them or trust "The Brethren's Word", and as far as THE RULES read, it's illegal.

dmp

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 05:57 PM
Bill Moon, North Carolina

Sorry. I didn't know your name. Now I do. Congrats (or condolences).

dmp

Slamdunkpro
05-10-2012, 07:15 PM
Ahhh - but cutting it into pieces with little joining pieces of flesh BEFORE the cooking process is completely legal, it is "one whole piece"

Now what if some of those little joining pieces cook away, or snap do to handling, has the team broken the rules...
Yes, don't angle shoot and you won't run that risk

The Arguement:

Rep: Your pork is not Whole, it had to have been "separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker."

Cook: My pork was seperated into 5 flaps before the cooking process, and cooked whole and connected, it was not seperated during or after the cooking...

Rep: Prove it

Cook: I can't

Rep: DQ

Cook: I followed the rules to the letter. WT FARK!!!

Rep: No you didn't and you damn well know it. You pushed it right to the edge and in this case fell off the cliff. That's the risk you run when you push the edge - you get cut.


So who is right?
The rep - don't angle shoot and put yourself in a bad position.

Slamdunkpro
05-10-2012, 07:45 PM
The math is pretty simple. The ratios is 12.5:1 for cooks and reps. The critical time you mentioned for inspection is currently used for prep for judging, a judges meeting etc.... Without adding additional cost to the organizer and teams you'll be hard pressed to have inspections at smaller contests.

C'mon, that argument only holds so much water. I've worked a lot of contests from the back of the house and the Reps aren't that busy. Usually they roll in about 8:30-9:00, have breakfast, chat with the organizer then they might make a lap with the clock. 95% of the time 99% of the judging set up is done by contest volunteers, the reps just oversee it and it doesn't take all of them to do that. All the reps don't need to prep for the judge's meeting or even give the judge's meeting.

Get up 15 minutes earlier and stop at whatever the number of random teams is: 5? 10? when they do the clock run. We aren't asking them to execute a search warrant or to toss a cell, just a quick "You've been randomly selected for compliance inspection, please open your cooker" or "show me your pork" or whatever. It takes 2 minutes per team at most.

If a competitor chooses not to discuss an issue with another team and simply call a rep, that's fine. The bottom line is that teams/cooks need to take some ownership of the issue as well. I believe there is an obligation there. Not just to the individual but the entire field. Sucks to be me or somebody else that misses a call because another team didn't want to get involved when they saw somebody cheating.

It's a two way street.

It is, but teams aren't (and shouldn't) go peeking between side curtains, lifting cooker lids or looking in trailer windows. If the Famous Dave's delivery guy shows up next door with 4 take out orders or a team that's vending on a Southern Pride has an ice cold stick burner out front yet their finished comp meats magically appear yeah, I'm going to call a rep. But I'm busy with my own food at this point.

Here's some more simple math. If you have 30 teams and you know prior to the event that they are going to random spot check 10 teams then you have a 33% chance of getting inspected (1 in 3). With all the money and effort you (generic you) invest in an event and the potential rewards, are you going to risk getting DQ'd by doing something shady with a 33% chance of getting caught?

Wampus
05-10-2012, 07:58 PM
The rep - don't angle shoot and put yourself in a bad position.


This whole thread has been a VERY interesting read. Fairly new competitor here.


So, you're saying to trim pork butt so to seperate indivisual muscles at ALL is pushing the envelope? I just don't want to get a paper cut.....

TooSaucedToPork
05-10-2012, 09:03 PM
The rep - don't angle shoot and put yourself in a bad position.

Not attacking or starting stuff...

but PLEASE show me in black and white in the KCBS rules where that is illegal and the rep is correct. It is all interpretation and not in black and white.

By the letter of the law they did not push anything...they followed the rules to the letter.

Slamdunkpro
05-10-2012, 09:24 PM
Not attacking or starting stuff...

but PLEASE show me in black and white in the KCBS rules where that is illegal and the rep is correct. It is all interpretation and not in black and white.

By the letter of the law they did not push anything...they followed the rules to the letter.

Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be separated during the cooking process. - black letter law (or rule in this case). nowhere does it say "separated by the competitor", it just says "shall not be separated"

The competitor attempted to circumvent that rule by cutting their butt into 5 separate pieces "connected' by small flaps". That's pushing the the limit - you know it and I know it.

The pork separated - is it whole? No. "If the pork is in bits you cannot acquit":razz:

It was deliberately semi separated and one of those separations failed. Again, we're all adults and we all know what the rule's intent is.

Guilty! Next case!

Alexa RnQ
05-10-2012, 10:01 PM
Now there's an ideal rule change.

"Pork shall be cooked bone in and whole."

Avoid a lot of tapdancing.

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 10:11 PM
So, you're saying to trim pork butt so to seperate indivisual muscles at ALL is pushing the envelope? I just don't want to get a paper cut.....

I don't think you'll find a rep in the country who would say you can't isolate individual muscles. It is within the letter of the rule as long as they are all connected some how and don't come disconnected. You certainly won't find many cheating accusers saying that since some of them probably take part in that practice. Personally though, I think it violates the spirit of the no-parting rule. Pick your poison.

dmp

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 10:13 PM
"Pork shall be cooked bone in and whole.

What's your definition of "whole?" I agree with you in theory, but at what point does a "whole" hunk of meat become an "unwhole" hunk of meat?

dmp

BBQchef33
05-10-2012, 10:32 PM
What's your definition of "whole?" I agree with you in theory, but at what point does a "whole" hunk of meat become an "unwhole" hunk of meat?

dmp

is this....

Whole?

Not whole?

This was trimmed, bone in and fully intact with little chance of falling apart unless you play tug of war.

dmprantz
05-10-2012, 10:38 PM
And yet those who want to set sauce are cheaters who don't know how to cook a pork butt well.....

dmp

JD McGee
05-11-2012, 12:39 AM
There are always folks that push the envelope and live on the edge of the rules...:tsk: Cheaters are gonna cheat until they get caught...then they're gonna want the rules changed. Once the rules are changed the original cheaters are gonna bitch about the newest crop of cheaters...it's a vicious cycle...:becky:

JD McGee
05-11-2012, 12:40 AM
is this....

Whole?

Not whole?

This was trimmed, bone in and fully intact with little chance of falling apart unless you play tug of war.

Looks like some of the Costco boneless butts I've cooked in the past...

Wampus
05-11-2012, 05:57 AM
Right. In fact, this is a boneless butt straight out of the cryo I got at Sam's. No trimming involved when this photo was taken.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz327/wampusbbq/BUTTS%20-%20PULLED%20PORK/Chris%20Lilly%20Injected%2041412/IMG_4860.jpg

So, make the rule "whole and untrimmed"?
At what point does trimming become seperating or parting?
I can see completely seperating the $M and cooking it alone being something folks would do. I don't know that isolating muscles (as with Phil's photo) but still cooking everything together is going to make a great deal of difference, other than adding surface area/bark. Or am I wrong?

dmprantz
05-11-2012, 07:39 AM
I don't think pre-seasoning meat whould be very helpful, but there's a rule against it. There are teams isolating, whether it helps them win or not, and that's not good IMO.

dmp

Sledneck
05-11-2012, 07:42 AM
Neil Strawder, California
Phil Rizzardi, New York
Mike Wozniak, Illinois
Bill Moon, North Carolina

BTW, we were recommended and asked to be on the committee to "help" hash out some of the ideas, etc... as a representative from each region.... along with the rest of the gang.... :becky:

Who picks these committees? Nothing personal but how many contests do you cook a year? Bgmista does what, 1 contest a year? :confused:

Boshizzle
05-11-2012, 07:44 AM
How about,

Pork shall be cooked whole and shall not be parted. Once parted, the pork may not be returned to the cooker. The temperature of the pork at turn in is determined by the cook's ability to cook.

No wiggle room in that version.

Slamdunkpro
05-11-2012, 07:54 AM
At what point does trimming become seperating or parting?
When one butt becomes two or more - it's pretty straight forward.

G$
05-11-2012, 08:37 AM
Now there's an ideal rule change.

"Pork shall be cooked bone in and whole."

Avoid a lot of tapdancing.

A-men.

(And make it 6 pounds while you are at it.) :caked:

Wampus
05-11-2012, 08:38 AM
When one butt becomes two or more - it's pretty straight forward.

I agree. When one roast becomes seperate pieces it's parted. Partially seperating is not fully seperating, and so not parting, correct?

Perhaps then:
Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be fully separated during the cooking process.

I mean, either you don't allow ANY trimming or you draw a distinct line. Left as is, I just don't think it's fair to say that those who are "aggressiveley trimming" or ""partially seperating" are stretching the rules, implying cheating.

I don't know that I think the rule is vague, but it does seem open to specific interpretation. An argument for the "original intent" of the rule, while valid, doesn't really have anything to do with the rule as written. I just started competing this year. I had no idea what the "original intent" of the rule is. I only read it as written. Not everyone has been competing for years and knows the history of KCBS. Call me dim, but if competitors are to be clear on what the black and white parts of the rules are, then the gray portion needs removed.

This can, of course, be cleared up with random team inspections and reps actually telling teams, "That's partially parted and not legal." THAT's clear enough.

Slamdunkpro
05-11-2012, 09:16 AM
I agree. When one roast becomes seperate pieces it's parted. Partially seperating is not fully seperating, and so not parting, correct?

Perhaps then:
Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be fully separated during the cooking process.-

"Fully" is unnecessary and would obfuscate the rule. The rule is crystal clear now. It's got to be 5lbs. If you trim it's still got to end up as one piece weighing 5 lbs. Any pieces smaller than 5lbs can't be in the cooker. You can't separate (cut into pieces) your pork. It's either one piece or it's not. If it's more than one piece you're in violation.

If you want to butterfly / spatchcock / fillet / spiral cut or whatever to your butt great, but you run the risk of the pork separating during cooking which would then put you in violation.

Big Poppa
05-11-2012, 09:21 AM
Now you guys are picking on my buddy Bigmista? You dont know his wife...she has a long memory..Im afriad of her. You should be too.....

Seriously.... Regardless of how many contests Neil does his is a great cook and an honest and objective person...I commend him for volunteering....

smoke-n-my-i's
05-11-2012, 11:32 AM
Not attacking or starting stuff...

but PLEASE show me in black and white in the KCBS rules where that is illegal and the rep is correct. It is all interpretation and not in black and white.

By the letter of the law they did not push anything...they followed the rules to the letter.


1) The decision and interpretations of the KCBS Rules
and Regulations are at the discretion of the KCBS Contest
Representatives at the contest. Their decisions and
interpretations are final to the extent consistent with the
rules.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-11-2012, 11:39 AM
Now there's an ideal rule change.

"Pork shall be cooked bone in and whole."

Avoid a lot of tapdancing.

So you are suggesting doing away with the boneless pork butt????

smoke-n-my-i's
05-11-2012, 11:45 AM
Who picks these committees? Nothing personal but how many contests do you cook a year? Bgmista does what, 1 contest a year? :confused:

My name was suggested by another team member from the north.... the intent was to have a KCBS member from each region to have input. We were not elected, our names were suggested and then we were asked if we would consider helping out.... from what I understand, there were others, but either there was no response or they point blankly said NO.... So we are volunteers here to try and help.... You want on the list for next time???

BTW, I usually only cook 1 or 2 a year myself, but I do help out another team, so I am out and about quite a bit.... 2 yrs ago, I was at 17 contests in 7 states... does that count?

bover
05-11-2012, 12:46 PM
Fark 'em all. Just eliminate slices as an acceptable form of entry for pork and this whole discussion goes away. Granted, a whole new round of rants would erupt, but at least this one would be done. :-P

Fat Freddy
05-11-2012, 01:07 PM
I didnt want to even try to put my foot in this thread, but I guess I have a question just to try to make things clear to me that I thought I understood.

Anyway it is done I will totally screw up pork, so I might as well just do a regular butt and not try anything. However I did a pork butt last night(resting in a cooler right now) and I bought it in cryovac yesterday morning came home and opened it up to start getting it ready. Even though it was a bone in butt it looks like someone had tried to make it boneless. It was not cut at all at the money muscle but on the bone side even though it was all still attached there are 3 "distinct" sections of meat and yes I put extra rub in those areas.

So even though I did not do any extra trimming in those areas am I pushing boundaries I should not, and if so and I get butt for comps and discover it is like this should I just get a different butt.

I am going to screw pork up big time no matter what but I dont want to be accused of cheating or overtrimming, pushing boundaries etc. But I would hate to buy a $20 pork butt and not be able to use it.

dmprantz
05-11-2012, 01:17 PM
Hard to tell without pictures, but as long as the whole thing is connected as one piece, it's legal.

dmp

Sledneck
05-11-2012, 01:20 PM
My name was suggested by another team member from the north.... the intent was to have a KCBS member from each region to have input. We were not elected, our names were suggested and then we were asked if we would consider helping out.... from what I understand, there were others, but either there was no response or they point blankly said NO.... So we are volunteers here to try and help.... You want on the list for next time???

BTW, I usually only cook 1 or 2 a year myself, but I do help out another team, so I am out and about quite a bit.... 2 yrs ago, I was at 17 contests in 7 states... does that count?
attending vs doing it fully on your own more than 1-2 times s year BIG
difference so no dont feel guys like you or Neil dont have a true insight of what its like ot hhave enough experience , knowledge to make suggestions

Sledneck
05-11-2012, 01:21 PM
Bad grammar from atop a ladder sorry

sitnfat
05-11-2012, 01:23 PM
Rules are for the guidance of wise men and for the obediance of fools.

Boshizzle
05-11-2012, 01:38 PM
What's the purpose of changing the rule? Is it just to let teams warm up their pork? Is there a problem with the pork that is being turned in now? Is there too much inconsistency of quality experienced by each team? What is the advantage of the rule? How can the rule provide an advantage if the current rule is binding on all teams? Does this rule make it easier to BBQ pork?

Seriously, what's the purpose of the rule? What problem is it supposed to address?

The first step in devising a solution is understanding the problem. Was there a problem statement crafted?

Slamdunkpro
05-11-2012, 02:07 PM
So even though I did not do any extra trimming in those areas am I pushing boundaries I should not, and if so and I get butt for comps and discover it is like this should I just get a different butt.

I am going to screw pork up big time no matter what but I dont want to be accused of cheating or overtrimming, pushing boundaries etc. But I would hate to buy a $20 pork butt and not be able to use it.

You're reading too much into all this. Put your butt on a table and pick it up by one end:
It's all off the table and suspended by your hand - LEGAL. :thumb:
A big chunk is still on the table - NOT LEGAL :mad:

dmprantz
05-11-2012, 02:52 PM
A big chunk is still on the table - NOT LEGAL :mad:

My understanding is that as long as one of the chunks is at least 5lb, that chunk is still legal to cook and turn in. No?

dmp

Slamdunkpro
05-11-2012, 02:58 PM
My understanding is that as long as one of the chunks is at least 5lb, that chunk is still legal to cook and turn in. No?

dmp

You are correct sir, but when was the last time you saw a contest official with a scale? (but that's another thread)

Slamdunkpro
05-11-2012, 03:01 PM
attending vs doing it fully on your own more than 1-2 times s year BIG
difference so no dont feel guys like you or Neil dont have a true insight of what its like ot hhave enough experience , knowledge to make suggestions

Sometimes a fresh perspective is a good thing.

dmprantz
05-11-2012, 03:29 PM
when was the last time you saw a contest official with a scale?

I know of a competitor who has one and has threatened to walk into the sites of other teams and demand that they weigh their pork entry, but as you said, that's another thread.

dmp

dmprantz
05-11-2012, 03:29 PM
What's the purpose of changing the rule? Is it just to let teams warm up their pork? Is there a problem with the pork that is being turned in now? Is there too much inconsistency of quality experienced by each team? What is the advantage of the rule? How can the rule provide an advantage if the current rule is binding on all teams? Does this rule make it easier to BBQ pork?

Seriously, what's the purpose of the rule? What problem is it supposed to address?

The first step in devising a solution is understanding the problem. Was there a problem statement crafted?

I posted most of this once earlier in the thread, but again, my understanding from conversations is that originally the KCBS pork category, by design or wording, allowed any cut of pork, with the possible exception of ribs. Over time, changes were made so that the pork category had to be a subset of the shoulder primal, had to weigh at least 5 lb., and could not be "parted," or divided into separate parts. You were still allow to trim your pork entry. For reference, the 2004 and 2006-2009 rule is quoted below:

Pork is defined as BOSTON BUTT, PICNIC, and/or WHOLE SHOULDER weighing approximately five (5) pounds or more. Pork must be cooked (bone in or bone out) in its entirety (may not be parted). Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted. The purpose for these rules, as far as I have understood, is to offer some consistency and BBQ skill to the pork category. Judges should expect that pork means pork shoulder, and that the product was cooked as a shoulder, not as a small subset thereof, and not as steaks. Some state that the parting rule was to prevent the use of illegal cuts such as tenderloin, but personally that does not make sense to me.

After these rule changes, there were teams and reps who felt that it was reasonable to place cooked pork in a smoker for a short period of time to "set sauce" just as they can do with the other three categories. The idea being that the meat was cooked and it was not part of the cooking process to set sauce. Regardless of the right or wrong of that, the BOD made an unequivocal decision at that time that setting sauce on parted, cooked pork in a cooker constitutes parting meat as part of the cooking process. The rule was then changed for 2010 to read as follows (My bold for emphasis):

Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

That's how the rule reads now and my understanding of how we got there. The next part of your question seems to concentrate on what's the effect of the rule. I have never tried to set sauce on competition pork, so I can't say for sure, but there are those out there who believe it allows them to turn in the best product. I would consider it to be analogous to teams being told that Parkay is no longer legal. Can all teams compete without the Blue Bottle? Sure. Are there teams that compete without it now? You betcha! Are there teams that feel that using it allows them to produce the best BBQ possible in some categories? I'd say yes. One of the big reasons for asking for it that I can tell is that some teams feel it allows them to cook the best product possible. Another reason is that it is somewhat inconsistent with the other three meats. You are allowed to set sauce on them, why not on pork?

While I'm sure I missed something those are my understandings of the rule and why some want it changed. It is inconsistent with other categories and prevents cooks from producing the best product possible. Those who are against changing the rule have a few reasons for their opinion. It's been stated that it "legalizes cheating" and makes cheating easier. It's been stated that those who can't turn in a winning pork entry without set sauce are looking for a crutch to improve their product rather than cooking better. It's also been suggested that the rules are there and just leave them along because change is bad.

Just my recollection of things....

dmp

Fat Freddy
05-11-2012, 03:52 PM
You're reading too much into all this. Put your butt on a table and pick it up by one end:
It's all off the table and suspended by your hand - LEGAL. :thumb:
A big chunk is still on the table - NOT LEGAL :mad:

Thats how I always understood it and hadnt worried about it before but after reading this thread it seems that some people were saying any kind of trimming/butterflying was wrong and I wanted to make sure I was doing it right.

But Slamdunkpro you are right I was reading waaaaay to much into this:loco:

Sledneck
05-11-2012, 03:54 PM
Sometimes a fresh perspective is a good thing.

Right, so when people run for bod etc they would get voted in if they touted lack of experience sure sure

dmprantz
05-11-2012, 03:58 PM
after reading this thread it seems that some people were saying any kind of trimming/butterflying was wrong

That's probably my fault, and I'm sorry to confuse you. My point was that based on the intent of the rules, butterflying a butt seems to violate the spirit and intent of the rule more so that setting sauce on cooked meat. I fully contend that the former is legal and the latter is not though!

dmp

Fat Freddy
05-11-2012, 04:03 PM
That's probably my fault, and I'm sorry to confuse you. My point was that based on the intent of the rules, butterflying a butt seems to violate the spirit and intent of the rule more so that setting sauce on cooked meat. I fully contend that the former is legal and the latter is not though!

dmp

Thats OK I just wanted to make sure I was doing things right. I would rather learn from those with tons more experience than me instead of just trying things on my own, so i was taking in every little thing I was reading. And I have learned alot and that is what is important to me.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-11-2012, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke-n-my-i's http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2050495#post2050495)
My name was suggested by another team member from the north.... the intent was to have a KCBS member from each region to have input. We were not elected, our names were suggested and then we were asked if we would consider helping out.... from what I understand, there were others, but either there was no response or they point blankly said NO.... So we are volunteers here to try and help.... You want on the list for next time???

BTW, I usually only cook 1 or 2 a year myself, but I do help out another team, so I am out and about quite a bit.... 2 yrs ago, I was at 17 contests in 7 states... does that count?

attending vs doing it fully on your own more than 1-2 times s year BIG
difference so no dont feel guys like you or Neil dont have a true insight of what its like ot hhave enough experience , knowledge to make suggestions
_________________


So, since you brought this up...

What is the minimum experience required to voice your opinion and be asked to volunteer on a committee???????

Boshizzle
05-11-2012, 05:26 PM
I posted most of this once earlier in the thread, but again, my understanding from conversations is that originally the KCBS pork category, by design or wording, allowed any cut of pork, with the possible exception of ribs. Over time, changes were made so that the pork category had to be a subset of the shoulder primal, had to weigh at least 5 lb., and could not be "parted," or divided into separate parts. You were still allow to trim your pork entry. For reference, the 2004 and 2006-2009 rule is quoted below:

The purpose for these rules, as far as I have understood, is to offer some consistency and BBQ skill to the pork category. Judges should expect that pork means pork shoulder, and that the product was cooked as a shoulder, not as a small subset thereof, and not as steaks. Some state that the parting rule was to prevent the use of illegal cuts such as tenderloin, but personally that does not make sense to me.

After these rule changes, there were teams and reps who felt that it was reasonable to place cooked pork in a smoker for a short period of time to "set sauce" just as they can do with the other three categories. The idea being that the meat was cooked and it was not part of the cooking process to set sauce. Regardless of the right or wrong of that, the BOD made an unequivocal decision at that time that setting sauce on parted, cooked pork in a cooker constitutes parting meat as part of the cooking process. The rule was then changed for 2010 to read as follows (My bold for emphasis):



That's how the rule reads now and my understanding of how we got there. The next part of your question seems to concentrate on what's the effect of the rule. I have never tried to set sauce on competition pork, so I can't say for sure, but there are those out there who believe it allows them to turn in the best product. I would consider it to be analogous to teams being told that Parkay is no longer legal. Can all teams compete without the Blue Bottle? Sure. Are there teams that compete without it now? You betcha! Are there teams that feel that using it allows them to produce the best BBQ possible in some categories? I'd say yes. One of the big reasons for asking for it that I can tell is that some teams feel it allows them to cook the best product possible. Another reason is that it is somewhat inconsistent with the other three meats. You are allowed to set sauce on them, why not on pork?

While I'm sure I missed something those are my understandings of the rule and why some want it changed. It is inconsistent with other categories and prevents cooks from producing the best product possible. Those who are against changing the rule have a few reasons for their opinion. It's been stated that it "legalizes cheating" and makes cheating easier. It's been stated that those who can't turn in a winning pork entry without set sauce are looking for a crutch to improve their product rather than cooking better. It's also been suggested that the rules are there and just leave them along because change is bad.

Just my recollection of things....

dmp

Thanks, dmp. I can see an advantage to being able to remove certain portions of a pork butt earlier in the cook than other portions. However, cooks can still sauce a pork but and put it back in the smoker as long as they don't slice or cut it up 1st. That doesn't violate the current rule.

To me, the existing rule is there to challenge the cook to produce good pork without cutting it into pieces. However, the chicken rules seem to contradict that point. I think that consistency would call for requiring that cooks cook a whole chicken without cutting it up rather than thighs or wings, etc. to challenge the cook to make the entire chicken come out properly cooked.

Changing the pork rule will require some serious word smithing in order to make sure that it is enforceable and prevents violations.

I also don't think that the rule should turn the Reps. into BBQ police.

Good luck with this one.

MrsMista
05-11-2012, 05:33 PM
:boxing:So because Neil cut back on competing at my request so that we could grow our business that means he's not qualified? All the competitions he's prepped and practice for and then I ask him not to do because we have a catering gig means he's not qualified?

The trophies around my office would say otherwise.

The reason we started selling barbecue was to support Neil's competing habit. When he chose it as a profession then IMO providing for his family took precedence over getting a damn trophy.

And like I tell him, when you have people lining up to PAY for your food why are you PAYING for someone to judge your food.

AND hell no I'm not going to have my husband drag back and forth across the country for something like that and then come home to tired to DO HIS JOB!!!

He loves competing and he gives up a lot at my request so I be damn if I'm gonna let you or anyone else say he's not qualified without giving my two cents.

attending vs doing it fully on your own more than 1-2 times s year BIG
difference so no dont feel guys like you or Neil dont have a true insight of what its like ot hhave enough experience , knowledge to make suggestions

K-Train
05-11-2012, 07:22 PM
:boxing:So because Neil cut back on competing at my request so that we could grow our business that means he's not qualified? All the competitions he's prepped and practice for and then I ask him not to do because we have a catering gig means he's not qualified?

The trophies around my office would say otherwise.

The reason we started selling barbecue was to support Neil's competing habit. When he chose it as a profession then IMO providing for his family took precedence over getting a damn trophy.

And like I tell him, when you have people lining up to PAY for your food why are you PAYING for someone to judge your food.

AND hell no I'm not going to have my husband drag back and forth across the country for something like that and then come home to tired to DO HIS JOB!!!

He loves competing and he gives up a lot at my request so I be damn if I'm gonna let you or anyone else say he's not qualified without giving my two cents.

Family and obligations first, well put.

Smoke'n Ice
05-11-2012, 07:30 PM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall
be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the
meat once separated be returned to a cooker.


I must have missed something somewhere along the way. The 5 pounds refers to the beginning piece of meat. You are allowed to disect it once inspected and only cook as much as you desire, hence bone in or bone out. Am I wrong?

It specifically states during the cooking process. If separated prior to being place on the cooker but after being inspected and that is the only piece of the butt you are going to cook, then where is the violation?:boxing:

dmprantz
05-11-2012, 07:33 PM
I must have missed something somewhere along the way. The 5 pounds refers to the beginning piece of meat. You are allowed to disect it once inspected and only cook as much as you desire, hence bone in or bone out. Am I wrong?

It specifically states during the cooking process. If separated prior to being place on the cooker but after being inspected and that is the only piece of the butt you are going to cook, then where is the violation?:boxing:

My understanding is that you can create any subset of a whole shoulder that you want, as long as it weighs 5 lb when placed on the cooker. I'm guessing that's before rub and injection too. You can't trim a 5lb butt down to an 8 oz MM and cook it. At least that's my understanding of the rules...

dmp

Smoke'n Ice
05-11-2012, 07:52 PM
Where is it stated either by rule or rep advisory? It does not mention going on the cooker.

dmprantz
05-11-2012, 08:02 PM
I've got no answer other than that's what I've always understood to be the meaning of the rule and every one else I've talked to seems to agree. Maybe that's the test for where does trimming stop and parting begin? When I had a similar question about the hot-rod in pellet cookers, I called the KCBS office to ask for a "ruling" and got it. Perhaps that is in order here, or perhaps one of the five members of the rules committee who post in this forum could weigh in....speaking for themselves only of course:) Or maybe next time you cook a KCBS competition, trim a 10 lb butt down the MM and see if you don't get DQed? Personally, I don't have to worry about it.

dmp

Scottie
05-11-2012, 10:14 PM
This is not a personal jab at anyone, I respect folks for volunteering for a committee. Id love to do it, but I sure do not want any conflict with my foundation. But with all this talk about being qualified for a committee. Because folks can cook BBQ and/or have been around bbq, in my opinion it does not qualify a person for the Rules Committee for comp BBQ. While I understand a fresh look and fresh ideas for a committee, I am not sure that works with rules of a competition body. Experience does matter in this instance. I want folks that have been there done that. The more experience the better. Fresh ideas are for other committees.

Sledneck
05-11-2012, 10:31 PM
So, since you brought this up...

What is the minimum experience required to voice your opinion and be asked to volunteer on a committee???????
Im gonna say 6-8 maybe 10 if not more. the guy who gos out there and spends some serious hard earned cash on a regular basis. that knows the pain of a quiet drive home more than once or twice a year after a bad weekend out and empty pockets. when you go and cook with another team you are not prepping, shopping, and loading the week of. unloading the truck at home at the end of the weekend then having to go to work the next day.

Sledneck
05-11-2012, 10:37 PM
:boxing:So because Neil cut back on competing at my request so that we could grow our business that means he's not qualified? All the competitions he's prepped and practice for and then I ask him not to do because we have a catering gig means he's not qualified?

The trophies around my office would say otherwise.

The reason we started selling barbecue was to support Neil's competing habit. When he chose it as a profession then IMO providing for his family took precedence over getting a damn trophy.

And like I tell him, when you have people lining up to PAY for your food why are you PAYING for someone to judge your food.

AND hell no I'm not going to have my husband drag back and forth across the country for something like that and then come home to tired to DO HIS JOB!!!

He loves competing and he gives up a lot at my request so I be damn if I'm gonna let you or anyone else say he's not qualified without giving my two cents.
WOw you went out to left field on this one. Never said he shouldn't have the right to not do comp bbq and make a living instead. If a committee starts up about vending to the public he should be the first one called! As far as comp bbq and rules for kcbs , no i dont feel somebody should be on a committee right now that doesnt currently compete on a regular basis

Big Poppa
05-11-2012, 10:58 PM
Neil would comment but he is Long Beach at a comp hoping to cut his ribs and get better than 13th in chicken.

BBQchef33
05-11-2012, 11:50 PM
and.......
:mod:
the topic is.......
:mod:
To part or not to part.. nothin to do with committee membership..

YankeeBBQ
05-12-2012, 08:38 AM
Im gonna say 6-8 maybe 10 if not more. the guy who gos out there and spends some serious hard earned cash on a regular basis. that knows the pain of a quiet drive home more than once or twice a year after a bad weekend out and empty pockets. when you go and cook with another team you are not prepping, shopping, and loading the week of. unloading the truck at home at the end of the weekend then having to go to work the next day.

By your reasoning your not really qualified to comment on who should or shouldn't be on a committee. What do you cook ? 2 maybe 3 a year.
? :loco:

Muzzlebrake
05-12-2012, 08:50 AM
You can all go back to your normally scheduled programming.... The motion was defeated. That is all.

7 pages later............

Ford
05-12-2012, 09:01 AM
WOW. Is it February? Why is this so difficult.

Pork must weigh at least 5 lbs when inspected but you can pretrim and keep the packaging that says it was 5 lbs. after meat inspection trim it anyway you like but only 1 piece from a butt can go on the pit.

I just took a class from a great FBA cook who occasionally cooks KCBS and does ok. He won Lakeland this year. He made it clear when getting pork ready for the box that he was showing us FBA and it was illegal in KCBS. Why do it, because it provides a better product. In all the posts here nobody has talked about the benefits of setting sauce. Smoke, carmelization, taste. Even with steaming hot pork it's good to go back in for 20-25 minutes. It improves the product. I usually start pork box prep in FBA at 12:10 for a 1:00 turnin. I am making some minor changes to what I put back in the pit but not timing. At SAMS club, I will not put any pork I intend to put in the box back in the pit once parted. I may put the entire piece back sauced. Figure I can still get some good stuff to happen at the money muscle end.

At this point the KCBS rule has not changed so until it does lets move on.

Sledneck - my pork is better than I did at Plant City and thanks to your friend Jimmy I think it will be even better next week at Starke. Of course the Spicewine helps. And I think you'd be a great addition to any committee. So would most folks who are on here. I think we also need judges on committees as they see the whole spectrum of turnins.

dmprantz
05-12-2012, 09:30 AM
Why is this so difficult.

Pork must weigh at least 5 lbs when inspected but you can pretrim and keep the packaging that says it was 5 lbs. after meat inspection trim it anyway you like but only 1 piece from a butt can go on the pit.

I don't think that is at all accurate, and that's why it's so difficult. By your logic all pork is legal because they call came from a whole shoulder which was > 5 lb. If what you say is correct, then teams can cook just a money muscle, when if fact teams go to great length to do as close to that as possible without actually doing it. The hunk must weigh 5 lb when it goes on the cooker. If you can part one 11lb butt into two 5+ pounders, each of them may be cooked legally. If any one has trimmed a butt down to 4 lb and cooked it, I believe those people were violating the rules.

dmp

G$
05-12-2012, 09:30 AM
Im gonna say 6-8 maybe 10 if not more. the guy who gos out there and spends some serious hard earned cash on a regular basis. that knows the pain of a quiet drive home more than once or twice a year after a bad weekend out and empty pockets. .
So not only do they have to compete a lot, but they have to be bad at it!? I Kid!:mrgreen:

Ford
05-12-2012, 09:35 AM
Dmp. After trimming how does a cook know its still 5 lbs? Until the rule says you must weigh it before going on the pit nobody knows for sure. Your post implies that every team must have a scale and weigh before cooking.

dmprantz
05-12-2012, 11:00 AM
After trimming how does a cook know its still 5 lbs? Until the rule says you must weigh it before going on the pit nobody knows for sure. Your post implies that every team must have a scale and weigh before cooking.

I don't disagree that the rule is very difficult to enforce, but that is the rule as I understand it. If that weren't the rule, cooks would be allowed to cut off the money muscle and cook it alone. Do you think that's legal in KCBS? Honest question there.

dmp

smoke-n-my-i's
05-12-2012, 11:06 AM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall
be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the
meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

IF, all of you knew what was going on behind the scenes on this in the over 100 emails we tossed back and forth. I myself did NOT bring this one up... but I did have some input, thoughts, and questions... did we all agree on everything... NO way... but I personally want to thank each and everyone on the committee for the time, effort and input. We all have opinions, thoughts and ideas... some good, some bad, and some... well, personal.... the BOD decided not to accept our changes, we are moving on... so for now, we accept the rule as it is.

Here is my thoughts on the rule: Mine only.....

Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds.

the butt, picnic, and shoulder must a minimum of 5 lbs when bought... just like a 1/4 burger is precooked weight when you order it.....

the way I read it, the butt or picnic can be anything, the shoulder has to be whole.... the wording is Whole Shoulder......


Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process.

cook it as you buy it... except for some minor trimming of loose/excess fat, skin, and or loose meat. nothing more.

At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

put it on the cooker, cook it, remove it, hold it hot if needed, then pull/chop/slice as desired for turn in, but do NOT put it back on the cooker for any reason after it is removed.....

So, that is my interpretation for the 7 yrs cooking, 30 some comps cooked (myself) and compilation of trophies and money earned.....all at my expense on my free weekends while not working or taking vacation days from work....

since this was my interpretation, you can imagine after reading this thread how many others there is....

it is now time for this one to end, and move on..... my thoughts and input....

Slamdunkpro
05-12-2012, 12:59 PM
One small thing......

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall
be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the
meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

Here is my thoughts on the rule: Mine only.....

Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds.

the butt, picnic, and shoulder must a minimum of 5 lbs when bought... just like a 1/4 burger is precooked weight when you order it.....

the way I read it, the butt or picnic can be anything, the shoulder has to be whole.... the wording is Whole Shoulder......


Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process.

cook it as you buy it... except for some minor trimming of loose/excess fat, skin, and or loose meat. nothing more.

At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

I think this should really be
put it on the cooker, cook it, remove it, hold it hot if needed, then pull/chop/slice as desired for turn in, but do NOT put it back on the cooker for any reason after you pull it / cut it up.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-12-2012, 01:07 PM
one of the big discussions was... after it is cooked, you can put it back on the cooker to warm it up, as long as it has not been pulled, chopped, sliced or parted in any way..... in other words, still "whole"...

Ford
05-12-2012, 01:20 PM
I don't disagree that the rule is very difficult to enforce, but that is the rule as I understand it. If that weren't the rule, cooks would be allowed to cut off the money muscle and cook it alone. Do you think that's legal in KCBS? Honest question there.

dmp

I believe my trimming example violates the intent of the rule but it would be legal so long as only the "trimmed" piece went on the pit and no other meat from the butt went on. I think a rep might disagree and that could lead to a dq and a big debate for the BOD.

I believe 5 lbs is purchased weight. I personally look for 20 lb twin packs at RD.

For the record I used to trim a couple of pounds off a butt but now do very little trimming beyond bone chips now.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-12-2012, 01:51 PM
Here is what it boils down to in my opinion.... no matter how each of us interpret it........


1) The decision and interpretations of the KCBS Rules
and Regulations are at the discretion of the KCBS Contest
Representatives at the contest. Their decisions and
interpretations are final to the extent consistent with the
rules.

Smoke'n Ice
05-12-2012, 04:33 PM
My input on the rule was the current def. with minimal trimming placed on the cooker and cooked until an internal ServSaf temp of 135*, after that, do as you wish with that piece of meat. This would have made sure the protein was a pork butt and it would have been treated as any other category with the exception of the initial cook temp.

I honestly believe, after reading these posts that the BOD needs to issue a rep advisory and clarify the intent of the rule. I "tongue in cheek” suggested that the rules allow it to be trimmed to a single muscle as long as that is all that went on the cooker. I’m somewhat dismayed that this was not challenged more. It indicates that the idea may not be that far off base and teams may be doing it now.

I personally cook two butts for a contest and do minimal trimming. Cook one to 185* internal and one to 195-200*. I hold my own in this category and would like to be able to set the sauce but that is not to be.

Q-Dat
05-12-2012, 06:09 PM
There has been alot of talk in this thread about the spirit and intent of the rule, and I am not about to dispute any of it. I will say that I believe that the spirit of BBQ is all about taking cuts of meat that are less prized and making them delicious. What difference does it make if that is achieved by cutting said cut of meat into smaller pieces to cook it?

I personally like the way a pork butt cooks when its left whole, and most likely would continue to cook them that way regardless of whether or not the rule ever gets changed. But as far as I'm concerned, if it ever does change, and if someone can beat me with parted pork then so be it. Its still Barbecue.

drbbq
05-12-2012, 08:44 PM
I will speak to the spirit of the rule because I was an active cook when it was implemented.

It was intended to make us cook real BBQ as in a whole pork butt.
The reason there is no such rule for brisket is because the founding fathers never dreamed anyone would slice a brisket and then put it back in the cooker. So IMO KCBS should enforce the pork rule and add a similar rule for brisket so we are encouraged to cook large cuts of real BBQ.

Q-Dat
05-12-2012, 08:53 PM
I will speak to the spirit of the rule because I was an active cook when it was implemented.

It was intended to make us cook real BBQ as in a whole pork butt.
The reason there is no such rule for brisket is because the founding fathers never dreamed anyone would slice a brisket and then put it back in the cooker. So IMO KCBS should enforce the pork rule and add a similar rule for brisket so we are encouraged to cook large cuts of real BBQ.

If said Brisket rule was implimented, do you think it should include prohibiting separation of the point and flat?

Bunny
05-12-2012, 11:07 PM
I've seen some threads suggesting reps go out and check out a few teams around 11. Do you know what reps are doing at 11 am? Taking care of about 70 judges or more to make sure they understand the rules and procedure.

Yea, we've had to check inside a cooker a couple of times. (Like when the gas was on and to check and see if their meat was on). So don't assume that reps don't go out there and take care of matters that matter to a cooker. Rich and I cook and we understand your concerns. We do the best we can under circumstances which leads me to my next comment.

No, reps will not be out 30 minutes before you put your pork back on your smoker. We are inside tallying chicken, judging ribs and getting ready for the pork entry. It's phyically impossible. We have to go by the honor system. Yes, I would say 99.9% of the cookers are honest. And if not, they have to live with it.

As a cooker, I wish they would get rid of the pork parting rule for good and I've always felt that way. Let the cookers do their own thing with that piece of meat they have in front of them. It's the art of smoking.

Dale P
05-13-2012, 07:26 AM
So 4 lbs, 15 0z is not real BBQ but 5+ lbs is? I learn something everyday.
Let competitors part if they want and may the best looking, tasting, and tender, BBQ win. If you like cooking whole you still could, if you like setting the sauce, you could but you wouldnt have too. May the best win, but I know that most do not think like I do.
Thanks for listening everybody!

drbbq
05-13-2012, 08:39 AM
So 4 lbs, 15 0z is not real BBQ but 5+ lbs is? I learn something everyday.
Let competitors part if they want and may the best looking, tasting, and tender, BBQ win. If you like cooking whole you still could, if you like setting the sauce, you could but you wouldnt have too. May the best win, but I know that most do not think like I do.
Thanks for listening everybody!

And this is why we will eventually have a rule book like War and Peace.

drbbq
05-13-2012, 08:47 AM
If said Brisket rule was implimented, do you think it should include prohibiting separation of the point and flat?

IMO seperating the point and flat is a long standing traditional way to cook a brisket and should be allowed. Same with cooking one or the other.

But hanging the schlong muscle off a pork butt has no tradition or place in real BBQ that I'm aware of. Can anyone tell me the BBQ restaurants that serve money muscle?
Somebody going to Memphis ask John Willingham what the money muscle is and I'll bet he doesn't know. Ask Ed Neely about it and see what he says.

Keep in mind that I am old school in the BBQ comp world and even kind of consider myself a BBQ historian.

Podge
05-13-2012, 08:53 AM
Keep in mind that I am old school in the BBQ comp world and even kind of consider myself a BBQ historian.

I agree with that!

dmprantz
05-13-2012, 09:17 AM
Somebody going to Memphis ask John Willingham what the money muscle is and I'll bet he doesn't know.

I'd call him and ask for entertainment value, but he's setting up in Tom Lee Park today. Maybe Neil will wander over and ask him. I've talked to several of his former team members over the last couple years, and none of them knew what it was....

dmp

dmprantz
05-13-2012, 09:27 AM
Duplicate post. Sorry. Mods Delete.

dmp

Q-Dat
05-13-2012, 09:36 AM
IMO seperating the point and flat is a long standing traditional way to cook a brisket and should be allowed. Same with cooking one or the other.

But hanging the schlong muscle off a pork butt has no tradition or place in real BBQ that I'm aware of. Can anyone tell me the BBQ restaurants that serve money muscle?
Somebody going to Memphis ask John Willingham what the money muscle is and I'll bet he doesn't know. Ask Ed Neely about it and see what he says.

Keep in mind that I am old school in the BBQ comp world and even kind of consider myself a BBQ historian.


Well then I think the answer to all of the confusion is to change the name of the category to "Pulled Pork". I know some people like to slice whole pork butts, but does anyone actually do it in competition? I've never seen a picture of it if they do.

Simply change the name, to eliminate sliced pork, and most will probably lose the desire to isolate different muscles.

G$
05-13-2012, 09:54 AM
Well then I think the answer to all of the confusion is to change the name of the category to "Pulled Pork"...

That would never work! Point to any single International Barbeque Cooking group and tell me where this has happened ..... oh wait, nevermind..... :tongue:

(PS Can we talk about jointed chicken yet?)

drbbq
05-13-2012, 10:57 AM
Well then I think the answer to all of the confusion is to change the name of the category to "Pulled Pork". I know some people like to slice whole pork butts, but does anyone actually do it in competition? I've never seen a picture of it if they do.

Simply change the name, to eliminate sliced pork, and most will probably lose the desire to isolate different muscles.

Yes I've seen many slice the whole butt. In Kansas City it was the norm in the restaurants and at cookoffs until recently.

Muzzlebrake
05-13-2012, 01:09 PM
But hanging the schlong muscle off a pork butt has no tradition or place in real BBQ that I'm aware of. Can anyone tell me the BBQ restaurants that serve money muscle?

Keep in mind that I am old school in the BBQ comp world and even kind of consider myself a BBQ historian.

If we carry over that train of thought to all the categories, what about chicken? Where does the heavily trimmed/muffin pan chicken stand? I don't know of anyone serving that anywhere but at a KCBS contest. How about lollipopped legs? I haven't seen those on many menus either. Can the chicken that is turned in today be considered "real, traditional BBQ"?

Big Poppa
05-13-2012, 01:42 PM
Guys I am loving this thread....some random thoughts that I agree with

dr Bbq is old...makes me feel young....

Keep it up I never thought we would have a thread to challenge the UDS thread....

Rich Parker
05-13-2012, 01:55 PM
Guys I am loving this thread....some random thoughts that I agree with

dr Bbq is old...makes me feel young....

Keep it up I never thought we would have a thread to challenge the UDS thread....

Build a drum and you won't have to worry about these pork issues because they just come out perfect every time. ;)

AZScott
05-13-2012, 02:09 PM
A rule stating that it needs to be 5 pounds and not be separated and put on the smoker is hard to interpret? There must be a lot of lawyers in BBQ. :grin: When I first started I would start with an 8-10 # butt, trim the fat cap off, cut some meat from around the mm and then shave meat from the top and bottom to try and make the thickness of the butt the same. A rep during meat inspection called me out that my trimmed butt may not weigh 5 #'s anymore and that I need to be carefully that I don't go below 5#'s. If he had a scale that day or if I wasn't a new competitor, he possibly could have given me a DQ.

Now my butts are minimally trimmed and I learned that it takes a great flavor profile along with the ability to cook to a tenderness that scores well. Trying to twist rules and saying they are too stupid or silly or not modern BBQ or doing things you have convinced yourself are legal means to me and many others that you don't care about a level playing field. Creating a great appearance score, taste or tenderness does not take cutting your money muscle nearly off, making nubbins all over or even separating the mm during the cook.

I think part of the reason cooks don't self regulate other teams is due to the fact that there is no anonymous way to do so. Perhaps there should be.

drbbq
05-13-2012, 02:33 PM
Can the chicken that is turned in today be considered "real, traditional BBQ"?

Clearly it can't.

Dale P
05-13-2012, 03:42 PM
And this is why we will eventually have a rule book like War and Peace.

You didnt understand my point or I failed to get my point across. My point is that there are too many rules in MY opinion.

BBQchef33
05-13-2012, 08:34 PM
Well then I think the answer to all of the confusion is to change the name of the category to "Pulled Pork". I know some people like to slice whole pork butts, but does anyone actually do it in competition? I've never seen a picture of it if they do.

Simply change the name, to eliminate sliced pork, and most will probably lose the desire to isolate different muscles.


u mean like this?(or the entire butt, like country ribs?)

Q-Dat
05-13-2012, 10:27 PM
u mean like this?(or the entire butt, like country ribs?)



No thats what I was thinking, I had just never seen it in a turn in box until now. I've never tried it so I may be wrong, but it just doesn't seem very appetizing. Although the presentation does look good.

Big Poppa
05-13-2012, 10:54 PM
Yeah but those judges with the giant take home coolers will give you a high score because you will feed their mother in law with those leftovers. Whats up with the take home thing anyway?

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 07:55 AM
u mean like this?(or the entire butt, like country ribs?)

That is nice looking.... :icon_smile_tongue: :rolleyes: :wink:

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 07:58 AM
Ok, so here is another thought then.... since there is so much "confusion" on the interpretation, why not just make it a WHOLE shoulder only category... still pork....minimum 20 lbs.... must be cooked untrimmed, whole, unseparated, skin on, no rub, no sauce.... now that would be a real challenge to see who can cook the best flavored pork..... :twitch: :biggrin1: :boxing:

drbbq
05-14-2012, 09:43 AM
Why not eliminate the rule completely. The category is pork. No ribs but anything else goes.

Alexa RnQ
05-14-2012, 10:10 AM
Grilled tenderloin stewed in sauce for everybody!!!1!

ique
05-14-2012, 10:14 AM
OK, I left this thread when it was on pg6. I did read the whole thing (better than work email on monday morning)

My question, why was the motion denied? Because the wording wasn't there yet or because the board ultimately wants the status quo

ique
05-14-2012, 10:17 AM
So IMO KCBS should enforce the pork rule and add a similar rule for brisket so we are encouraged to cook large cuts of real BBQ.

OK Ray, here is how I like to cook a pork butt:

Cook whole 8-10 lb bone in pork butt until 195* internal temp

Rest in cooler for 2 hours

Process meat into chunks and slices, add bbq sauce, put in pan and hold on my pit until my guests or judges are ready to eat.

Is this real bbq? Because its illegal in KCBS comps and should not be in my opinion.

drbbq
05-14-2012, 11:10 AM
OK Ray, here is how I like to cook a pork butt:

Cook whole 8-10 lb bone in pork butt until 195* internal temp

Rest in cooler for 2 hours

Process meat into chunks and slices, add bbq sauce, put in pan and hold on my pit until my guests or judges are ready to eat.

Is this real bbq? Because its illegal in KCBS comps and should not be in my opinion.

Sure it is Chris. For years I returned my pulled pork back to the cooker while I sliced one I had butterflied but now I know I can't do that.

But we both know that's not what everybody is doing or wants to do. I'll even go as far as to to say a lot of this is about the undercooked "rest of the butt" that guys want to continue cooking after they cut the MM off.

MAP
05-14-2012, 12:13 PM
Just cook 4 butts. Put the ones on that you need for pulled early and then the the ones with the nice big MM later. when pork turn in is over put the rest of the butt thet you cut the MM off back on to finish cooking and take it home. You get the turn meat you want and is perfectly legal.

drbbq
05-14-2012, 12:23 PM
I trim the whole fat cap and cut a few deep slashes into the big part of my MM butts. I don't use that but it's mostly cooked for taking home. When I set my sauce the whole biutt goes back in. Kind of ridiculous but I don't blame the rule. I blame the judges for rewarding such a foolish practice.

ique
05-14-2012, 12:28 PM
But we both know that's not what everybody is doing or wants to do. I'll even go as far as to to say a lot of this is about the undercooked "rest of the butt" that guys want to continue cooking after they cut the MM off.

Yup but I thought the rewritten rule addressed that. There was only a 30 minute window where the product could be on the pit separated. Not enough time to do anything with that undercooked "rest of the butt" really.

Now let me preempt the next objection which is this change is not enforceable.

1. There is no enforcement or monitoring of the existing cooking process rules now. No one is checking if you are using gas or bringing in precooked meat or if you are parting pork now. "The rule is not enforceable, yet we do not monitor any of our cooking rules" :confused:

2. It actually could be enforced. Random pit checks at any time up until 30 minutes before turn in. If parted pork is on the pit at that time, DQ.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-14-2012, 12:36 PM
OK, I left this thread when it was on pg6. I did read the whole thing (better than work email on monday morning)

My question, why was the motion denied? Because the wording wasn't there yet or because the board ultimately wants the status quo

looks like the BOD voted it down, and only the "new" ones voted for it....

Yup but I thought the rewritten rule addressed that. There was only a 30 minute window where the product could be on the pit separated. Not enough time to do anything with that undercooked "rest of the butt" really.

Now let me preempt the next objection which is this change is not enforceable.

1. There is no enforcement or monitoring of the existing cooking process rules now. No one is checking if you are using gas or bringing in precooked meat or if you are parting pork now. "The rule is not enforceable, yet we do not monitor any of our cooking rules" :confused:

2. It actually could be enforced. Random pit checks at any time up until 30 minutes before turn in. If parted pork is on the pit at that time, DQ.

The proposed new rule that was voted down addressed the 30 minute window.... not a rule now....

I have an idea for enforcement and will not comment or make suggestions at this time... it will be coming later on.... I have only spoken to one person on this, and he thought it was a GREAT idea... not sure if he is 100% going to carry it on or not, but will see.

ModelMaker
05-14-2012, 01:16 PM
WOW ya'll still hammering this 15 (oops now 16)pages later?
I think the rules committee was doing an excellent job reacting to the membership about a preceived problem for the pork catagory. Whether the board didn't like the wording or the idea, doesn't matter for now it's dead. Maybe the rules guys will reword and try again, maybe not.
I too was vocal and in favor of treating pork like brisket, 5lbs cook it however you want. But my objection was as a finnancially challenged, husband/wife cook team with limited cooking apparatus, we only cook 1 brisket,1 butt and 2 racks of ribs.
I wanted to be able to cook the MM till done and remove it for slicing and return the rest for slicing or pulling. The teams that cook 3 or4 butts have an advantage in presenting perfectly cooked MM's as well as perfectly cooked slices etc.

Since then and throughout this whole thread I have discovered that its possible the whole reason behind the large chunk o' pork is to test your ability to perfectly slow cook a large piece of pig, as well as a large piece of tough cow. I think this is the correct way of thinking and hereby change my mind (Dave) to leave the pork rule as is.
Ed

drbbq
05-14-2012, 01:26 PM
Yup but I thought the rewritten rule addressed that. There was only a 30 minute window where the product could be on the pit separated. Not enough time to do anything with that undercooked "rest of the butt" really.

Now let me preempt the next objection which is this change is not enforceable.

1. There is no enforcement or monitoring of the existing cooking process rules now. No one is checking if you are using gas or bringing in precooked meat or if you are parting pork now. "The rule is not enforceable, yet we do not monitor any of our cooking rules" :confused:

2. It actually could be enforced. Random pit checks at any time up until 30 minutes before turn in. If parted pork is on the pit at that time, DQ.

Layers and layers of issues that never get fixed.

Vince RnQ
05-14-2012, 01:39 PM
Yup but I thought the rewritten rule addressed that. There was only a 30 minute window where the product could be on the pit separated. Not enough time to do anything with that undercooked "rest of the butt" really.

Now let me preempt the next objection which is this change is not enforceable.

1. There is no enforcement or monitoring of the existing cooking process rules now. No one is checking if you are using gas or bringing in precooked meat or if you are parting pork now. "The rule is not enforceable, yet we do not monitor any of our cooking rules" :confused:

2. It actually could be enforced. Random pit checks at any time up until 30 minutes before turn in. If parted pork is on the pit at that time, DQ.


In my opinion, the text I put in bold is at the heart of the problem. It isn't so much that rules are unenforceable but rather that there is a real lack of will to enforce the rules at all.

Sledneck
05-14-2012, 01:57 PM
Can a horse that's been beat to death continuously be parted and put back in the cooker?

Muzzlebrake
05-14-2012, 02:13 PM
Can a horse that's been beat to death continuously be parted and put back in the cooker?

Not once it's out of the barn…

Q-Dat
05-14-2012, 07:57 PM
I'm curious how many of these butts that get cooked just for the MM get tossed in the trash. Maybe not that many, but I can't help thinking that after many of these teams cook week after week the freezer ends up full of pork, and it starts going in the trash. American BBQ came about from people who couldn't afford to waste food.

If its tradition and difficulty we are trying to preserve then maybe we should limit the meat that can be cooked to grades that are available at Supermarkets.

I listen to Greg Rempe's show often. On that show he regularly has teams who compete alot. Many times Greg will ask the competitors what their thoughts are on the Pitmasters show. Most of the time whether they like the show or not they will say that they are for it because they like anything that promotes competition BBQ. Well people believing that you need to cook 4 pork butts, and a couple of $100 briskets to have a decent chance of winning is not going to promote the "sport". If we want more people to compete, then we need to keep the costs down where we can. I don't particularly care for the featuring of the money muscle, but its just about the tastiest piece of meat on a pig, and like it or not it appears to be hear to stay. The fact of the matter is that tasty piece of pork just happens to end up perfectly done way before the rest of the butt. If cooks were allowed to simply remove the MM and the return the rest of the butt to the cooker you would still never have a mass of pork less than 5 lbs on the cooker. It would keep both cost and waste down.

That being said this will never happen because we need to keep all the rules the same because thats just the way it is. No other reason is needed. Thats just the way it is.

Sledneck
05-14-2012, 09:06 PM
Not once it's out of the barn…

But then the horse strikes back!

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j447/r2bq/dcf46ea6.jpg

Q-Dat
05-14-2012, 09:21 PM
To all forum members whose computer physically forces them to read all new additions to this thread and all arguments related to it........I apologize for adding to it.

To everyone else who is tired of reading it...........well I think you know the solution to your dilemma.

Rookie'48
05-15-2012, 10:45 AM
. . . The fact of the matter is that tasty piece of pork just happens to end up perfectly done way before the rest of the butt. If cooks were allowed to simply remove the MM and the return the rest of the butt to the cooker you would still never have a mass of pork less than 5 lbs on the cooker. It would keep both cost and waste down.

That being said this will never happen because we need to keep all the rules the same because thats just the way it is. No other reason is needed. Thats just the way it is.


Hmmmmm - :thumb:

Q-Dat
05-15-2012, 02:31 PM
Hmmmmm - :thumb:

I'm just sayin.......ya know???? :D

Podge
05-15-2012, 03:22 PM
I really do not understand why people feel so compelled to turn in MM anyway ?!?!?.. I do an equally crappy job submitting pork with or without MM !!.. Seriously, do all teams really think that submitting the MM does a lot (positive) for their score?

smoke-n-my-i's
05-15-2012, 03:54 PM
To all forum members whose computer physically forces them to read all new additions to this thread and all arguments related to it........I apologize for adding to it.

To everyone else who is tired of reading it...........well I think you know the solution to your dilemma.


If you don't want to get the notices, just unsubscribe from this thread and you will not be bothered with it any longer.....

I really do not understand why people feel so compelled to turn in MM anyway ?!?!?.. I do an equally crappy job submitting pork with or without MM !!.. Seriously, do all teams really think that submitting the MM does a lot (positive) for their score?

Why do you want to win??????

simple.... it is all about the money, and pride of winning, and the points chase (at least that is the way I see it for some)..... everyone wants the best and the most.... commonly called greed.......... sure, I want to win too (some more) but to some of us, it is more of the fellowship and fun.... just an expensive hobby... but no worse than a boat, 4-wheeler, smoking, drinking, race cars, etc.......

Q-Dat
05-15-2012, 04:15 PM
I really do not understand why people feel so compelled to turn in MM anyway ?!?!?.. I do an equally crappy job submitting pork with or without MM !!.. Seriously, do all teams really think that submitting the MM does a lot (positive) for their score?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have had perfectly cooked MM before, and it is an amazing thing. I genuinely love pulled pork from the rest of the butt, however the MM is on another lever in terms of flavor from the intense marbling in it. In my humble opinion, the best pulled or chunks are not as good as a perfectly cooked MM. Therefore I'm going to put it in the box unless I happen to overcook it, in which case it can be mushy, and most likely do more harm than good.

Slamdunkpro
05-15-2012, 04:18 PM
I really do not understand why people feel so compelled to turn in MM anyway ?!?!?.. I do an equally crappy job submitting pork with or without MM !!.. Seriously, do all teams really think that submitting the MM does a lot (positive) for their score?

I turn in MM for the same reason I turn in chicken thighs and sliced plus cubed brisket. Around here that's what wins consistently.

Scottie
05-15-2012, 04:43 PM
Podge knows how to win boys....

Rich Parker
05-15-2012, 04:53 PM
Turning in money muscle is soooo 2011. :drama:

indianagriller
05-15-2012, 05:11 PM
just cook the pork...no need to get fancy with it.

smoke-n-my-i's
05-15-2012, 05:47 PM
I guess I am too "old" school as I like fire, and good 'ol BBQ........except I can't eat it any more.... :mad:

Q-Dat
05-15-2012, 06:31 PM
Podge knows how to win boys....

Oh I have no doubt about that. I probably have less comp experience than anyone else in this thread, I was just trying to answer the question he asked.

Dale P
05-16-2012, 04:07 AM
Podge win? Really? Just all the time! :thumb: He had to build onto his house to hold all of the trophies he has won and The Jack Daniels World Championship Trophy is in that collection. Change the rule so we can set the sauce. It does not make sense that you can for the other 3 and not pork.

drbbq
05-16-2012, 07:13 AM
Podge win? Really? Just all the time! :thumb: He had to build onto his house to hold all of the trophies he has won and The Jack Daniels World Championship Trophy is in that collection. Change the rule so we can set the sauce. It does not make sense that you can for the other 3 and not pork.

Tell me again why you can't set the sauce with the whole butt intact.

mobow
05-16-2012, 07:21 AM
I do not understand why people get caught up in the we can do it for the other meats why not pork. Different rules for different meats. Just like there are different rules for baseball and football. Know the rules of your game and play to win. keith

YankeeBBQ
05-16-2012, 09:09 AM
I do not understand why people get caught up in the we can do it for the other meats why not pork. Different rules for different meats. Just like there are different rules for baseball and football. Know the rules of your game and play to win. keith

Not a very good analogy. I don't know anyone playing baseball and football at the same time. It's more like you can use both feet to run to first but you can only hop on one foot to run to second base. Or like the NFL making a rule you can pass on first and second down but on third down you can only run.

mobow
05-16-2012, 10:13 AM
Not a very good analogy. I don't know anyone playing baseball and football at the same time. It's more like you can use both feet to run to first but you can only hop on one foot to run to second base. Or like the NFL making a rule you can pass on first and second down but on third down you can only run.

How about the rules for passing are different from the rules of running. Or the rules for passing vary if the thrower is behind the line of scrimmage (brisket) or in front of it (pork). keith

YankeeBBQ
05-16-2012, 02:10 PM
How about the rules for passing are different from the rules of running. Or the rules for passing vary if the thrower is behind the line of scrimmage (brisket) or in front of it (pork). keith

But the line of scrimmage doesn't change depending on whether it's a pass or a run. It stays the same. Consistent.

DawgPhan
05-16-2012, 02:20 PM
But the line of scrimmage doesn't change depending on whether it's a pass or a run. It stays the same. Consistent.


how about the rules are different for a catch in the endzone or sideline than they are for a catch over the middle of the field.

mobow
05-16-2012, 02:25 PM
How about if we used horseshoes instead of a football. lol keith

Big Poppa
05-16-2012, 10:16 PM
How long is a piece of string?