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roksmith
04-11-2012, 11:24 AM
A thread was started in the competition area warning contest organizers to update their championship proclamations.
I'm concerned that, as an organizer, I had to read a message board to find out that our State Championship was no longer going to be honored by the American Royal, one of the two contests most organizers bother getting a proclamation for.
From the email I received from the Royal manager, it's not a change in their invite rules, but because of mis-information given out by KCBS that once a contest receives their proclamation, they are good to go forever.
The only real reason to obtain a State Championship proclamation is to be considered for an invite the the Royal and the Jack.
Now many contests listed as State Championships on the KCBS site will no longer be considered for an AR invite. I have not heard back from Jack Daniels yet to see if their policy is the same, but I believe a great dis-service has been done by the KCBS to it's membership and events.
Some sort of agreement should have been worked out to allow any contest the KCBS says is a State Championship to be grandfathered in for at least a year. Also some sort of message should have been communicated to sanctioned events to let them know their championship status is no longer valid.
An organizer should not have to watch a forum to find out their GC will no linger get an invite to the upper level championships.
I do realize that the KCBS does not control either the Royal or the Jack, but it certainly owes it's paying members and event something and negotiating with the events or at least notifying it's events of something like this is not beyond what would be expected from an organization.

Smoke Ring
04-11-2012, 03:19 PM
KCBS used to track proclamations and send AR and Jack organizers a report listing all the qualifying contests and the GCs. They discontinued tracking the events, and sending the reports, putting the burden onto the AR and Jack, as well as the organizers of qualifying events who must now submit paperwork along with the winning team. Of course they never notified anyone they were making this change. There was a one line reference in the BOD minutes.

KCBS no longer serves its members. It has become little more than a shill for their corporate sponsors.

Ford
04-11-2012, 03:19 PM
KCBS is one of many sanctioning bodies for the royal and jack. Some are taking a more proactive approach but it really should have been the 2 invitationals that tried to contact organizers. The real problem is with organizers that put a specific date including year in their proclamation. If it just says the contest name then it should be good forever. So date = problem created by organizers. The 7 day to send in paperwork change has nothing to do with sanctioning bodies.

It would have been nice for the KCBS to send an email to organizers telling them the invitationals were making a change. As I already said some sanctioning bodies are out front of this including telling winning teams and organizers about the one week rule as well as providing copies of a "valid" proclamation with the winners notification to the invitational.

Guess the invitationals thought it was getting too eBay to qualify.

drbbq
04-11-2012, 03:51 PM
Let's not ignore the fact that KCBS was accepting expired proclamations from organizers. If they had made the organizers keep their procs up to date this problem wouldn't exist.

YankeeBBQ
04-11-2012, 04:24 PM
Let's not ignore the fact that KCBS was accepting expired proclamations from organizers. If they had made the organizers keep their procs up to date this problem wouldn't exist.

Is it a fact that the Royal required a new proclamation every year ? If they did then why weren't they verifying that information every year ? Lay the facts on me Doc.

carlyle
04-11-2012, 04:52 PM
I don't know if it is a Royal requirement, but our previous proclamations had a specific date on them when we received them from the Gov. office. So they were self limiting.

Now Minnesota has a blanket proclamation good for the rest of present governors term of office.

I am not that Dr. , but was presumptuous enough to interject my 2 cents worth anyway. :)

Jeff_in_KC
04-11-2012, 05:40 PM
I've only seen 3 or 4 proclamations and none of them ever had an expiration date on them.

drbbq
04-11-2012, 07:28 PM
Is it a fact that the Royal required a new proclamation every year ? If they did then why weren't they verifying that information every year ? Lay the facts on me Doc.

I don't think the point is "New" proclamation every year, but nice spin. The point as I know it is the dates. Some procs are forever and some are for a year. The ones for a year are only good for a year.

I can't speak for the Royal but common sense tells me the expired ones aren't good. That's kind of the whole point of expiration.

roksmith
04-12-2012, 07:57 AM
No proclamation has an expiration date. But most individual contest proclamations list the name and date of an event. If that date includes a year, then the proclamation is good for only that year according to the AR. That is contradictory to previous KCBS guidance. According to the Royal, this has always been the case from their perspective, but they have relied on KCBS to make sure the contests were up to date.
Doc, I don't think the organizers are to blame here for two reasons.
1. When we are given a sample proclamation to follow and the sample has a date with a year on it..and we're told it's fine, why should we question the sanctioning body?
2. At least in our state, ya don't get to exactly draft the proclamation for the governor. We sent a copy of the sample we were given and it came back with a date with year.

My thoughts would be that once a contest is proclaimed a state championship by the governor, it would from then on be one. I'm fully sure it was intended to be that way.

One thing is for sure....somebody who knew about the decision should be contacting these organizers. Not everybody reads this board.

drbbq
04-12-2012, 08:26 AM
I'm not blaming the organizers at all but I also don't think it's fair to blame the Royal.

I suspect some of these procs are pretty old and I don't think a dated one was meant to be good forever. I'm sure it's a hassle to get a new one and I'm sure it would have been a hassle to make everyone get a new one and keep track of them all, but just because it's a hassle doesn't mean you don't have to do it. But in typical KCBS fashion they don't want to make anyone mad so they just let it bleed. Now the Royal decides to fix it and they look like the bad guys.

IMO the bottom line is that the State Championship thing is antiquated and corrupted and needs a complete overhaul.

Diva
04-12-2012, 09:28 AM
I was told, when I worked at KCBS, that when the contest organizer got their proclamation it was good for as many years as they consecutively had their contest. If the contest was to "skip" a year, they would have to get a new one, other than that, it was good to go.

I know that Tracy knew that when she ran the Royal, because we had a conversation about it. That was several years ago, whether she passed that tidbit of information on, I don't know. Whether the Executive Director cared to share it with Jolene and Melissa, I don't know.

Jorge
04-12-2012, 09:45 AM
No proclamation has an expiration date. But most individual contest proclamations list the name and date of an event. If that date includes a year, then the proclamation is good for only that year according to the AR. That is contradictory to previous KCBS guidance. According to the Royal, this has always been the case from their perspective, but they have relied on KCBS to make sure the contests were up to date.
Doc, I don't think the organizers are to blame here for two reasons.
1. When we are given a sample proclamation to follow and the sample has a date with a year on it..and we're told it's fine, why should we question the sanctioning body?
2. At least in our state, ya don't get to exactly draft the proclamation for the governor. We sent a copy of the sample we were given and it came back with a date with year.

My thoughts would be that once a contest is proclaimed a state championship by the governor, it would from then on be one. I'm fully sure it was intended to be that way.

One thing is for sure....somebody who knew about the decision should be contacting these organizers. Not everybody reads this board.

Speaking solely for myself, and not representing KCBS or the board....

Just because you've heard nothing to date, doesn't mean that nothing is being done. If you have specific concerns feel free to email me at gmullins@kcbs.us. I'll provide my cell # at that point if you'd like to discuss it personally.

Dustaway
04-12-2012, 10:45 AM
Ray, I agree with you regarding the damn state proclamation it is out of date and it's a monkey see monkey do type of thing we have contest in Texas that have well over 50 teams competing each year and just because they have seen other contest with "state proclamation" then they fill the need to run out and get one so they can claim its a state championship.

they way the AR looks at who qualifies for the Invitational really needs to be looked at and discussed further

Slamdunkpro
04-12-2012, 03:38 PM
I'm not blaming the organizers at all but I also don't think it's fair to blame the Royal.

........

IMO the bottom line is that the State Championship thing is antiquated and corrupted and needs a complete overhaul.

From conversations I've had recently I'm not sure that it's fair to put this wholly on KCBS either. Yes KCBS dropping the tracking was the catalyst but from what I've pieced together there was never anything written anywhere about how this whole procedure worked. It was all verbally passed down from one person to another based on that person's interpretation thus becoming diluted & corrupted over time. What the AR is doing right now does amount to a complete overhaul and I hope we'll see written concrete requirements at the end.

Vince RnQ
04-12-2012, 04:00 PM
KCBS used to track proclamations and send AR and Jack organizers a report listing all the qualifying contests and the GCs.
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KCBS no longer serves its members.

Garry, I certainly respect your opinion but I think that as it pertains to tracking of proclamations and Grand Championships, I think your closing comment is awfully broad. Here's why...

Not every Head Cook that has ever won a KCBS sanctioned contest is also a KCBS Member. Many of us are but not all of us. Should KCBS "serve its members" by only reporting the GCs of paying members? That would certainly be a fair and reasonable thing to do and I wouldn't mind if KCBS took that position and marketed it as a Members Only benefit. It seems to me that we paying Members have been subsidizing this "benefit" for a lot of Non-Members over the years.

Look, I know this is splitting hairs but at what point does KCBS decide to take care of those of us who do pay dues and let those who do not fend for themselves? If they are going to report for all GCs, why not include all teams in the ToY race? Same logic if you ask me. Being in ToY is a benefit of Membership.

Sledneck
04-12-2012, 04:05 PM
Garry, I certainly respect your opinion but I think that as it pertains to tracking of proclamations and Grand Championships, I think your closing comment is awfully broad. Here's why...

Not every Head Cook that has ever won a KCBS sanctioned contest is also a KCBS Member. Many of us are but not all of us. Should KCBS "serve its members" by only reporting the GCs of paying members? That would certainly be a fair and reasonable thing to do and I wouldn't mind if KCBS took that position and marketed it as a Members Only benefit. It seems to me that we paying Members have been subsidizing this "benefit" for a lot of Non-Members over the years.

Look, I know this is splitting hairs but at what point does KCBS decide to take care of those of us who do pay dues and let those who do not fend for themselves? If they are going to report for all GCs, why not include all teams in the ToY race? Same logic if you ask me. Being in ToY is a benefit of Membership.
Really good point

Diva
04-12-2012, 07:10 PM
Garry, I certainly respect your opinion but I think that as it pertains to tracking of proclamations and Grand Championships, I think your closing comment is awfully broad. Here's why...

Not every Head Cook that has ever won a KCBS sanctioned contest is also a KCBS Member. Many of us are but not all of us. Should KCBS "serve its members" by only reporting the GCs of paying members? That would certainly be a fair and reasonable thing to do and I wouldn't mind if KCBS took that position and marketed it as a Members Only benefit. It seems to me that we paying Members have been subsidizing this "benefit" for a lot of Non-Members over the years.

Look, I know this is splitting hairs but at what point does KCBS decide to take care of those of us who do pay dues and let those who do not fend for themselves? If they are going to report for all GCs, why not include all teams in the ToY race? Same logic if you ask me. Being in ToY is a benefit of Membership.

You're right, not every head cook is a member. When I was employed @ KCBS and was told to keep track of GC's of State Championships and the winner of a qualifying contest wasn't a member, I would email the organizer of said contest and get the winners information. In MY mind, that was doing a service for the paying contest organizer. The majority of the time, said winner would become a member when I would call them to verify their mailing address, etc.

I guess I'm "old school". If it only took a couple of minutes, what did it matter?? That $35 or $40 that I pay a year doesn't give me a sense of "entitlement".

FWIW, KCBS contest GC's weren't the only sanctioning body GC's I had to have on that spreadsheet before it was handed over to the Royal and the Jack. Now THAT, I would consider "subsidizing".

drbbq
04-12-2012, 07:11 PM
From conversations I've had recently I'm not sure that it's fair to put this wholly on KCBS either. Yes KCBS dropping the tracking was the catalyst but from what I've pieced together there was never anything written anywhere about how this whole procedure worked. It was all verbally passed down from one person to another based on that person's interpretation thus becoming diluted & corrupted over time. What the AR is doing right now does amount to a complete overhaul and I hope we'll see written concrete requirements at the end.

I agree Mike and hopefully over time all of these good ole boy agreements will get updated and clarified.

drbbq
04-12-2012, 07:12 PM
FWIW, KCBS contest GC's weren't the only sanctioning body GC's I had to have on that spreadsheet before it was handed over to the Royal and the Jack. Now THAT, I would consider "subsidizing".

Lol, now we're getting the real story.

Slamdunkpro
04-12-2012, 08:16 PM
FWIW, KCBS contest GC's weren't the only sanctioning body GC's I had to have on that spreadsheet before it was handed over to the Royal and the Jack. Now THAT, I would consider "subsidizing".
Even non member GC's have paid for KCBS services via the per team fee incorporated into the sanctioning fees. Up until last year that was presumed to include AR and The Jack invitation tracking.

drbbq
04-12-2012, 08:33 PM
Even non member GC's have paid for KCBS services via the per team fee incorporated into the sanctioning fees. Up until last year that was presumed to include AR and The Jack invitation tracking.



Actually I think she is talking about tracking GCs for contests sanctioned by MIM, IBCA, FBA etc as a service to the Royal and the Jack.

Slamdunkpro
04-12-2012, 10:18 PM
Actually I think she is talking about tracking GCs for contests sanctioned by MIM, IBCA, FBA etc as a service to the Royal and the Jack.
Gotcha, even then who's the client? Both the AR and The Jack pay KCBS via sanctioning or contest administrative fees to provide a service that might or might not include GC tracking. I don't want to turn this into a bash KCBS post but the product that KCBS sells to contests is a service product. Seems a little short sighted to discontinue one of the large value added services to your two most visible clients.

BBQchef33
04-12-2012, 11:15 PM
is there a smiley around here for "biting my tongue"??

:decision:

Vince RnQ
04-13-2012, 01:00 AM
You're right, not every head cook is a member. When I was employed @ KCBS and was told to keep track of GC's of State Championships and the winner of a qualifying contest wasn't a member, I would email the organizer of said contest and get the winners information. In MY mind, that was doing a service for the paying contest organizer. The majority of the time, said winner would become a member when I would call them to verify their mailing address, etc.

I guess I'm "old school". If it only took a couple of minutes, what did it matter?? That $35 or $40 that I pay a year doesn't give me a sense of "entitlement".

FWIW, KCBS contest GC's weren't the only sanctioning body GC's I had to have on that spreadsheet before it was handed over to the Royal and the Jack. Now THAT, I would consider "subsidizing".

I think you make an excellent point about the service also applying to the contest organizer who paid a sanctioning fee to KCBS. That would certainly cover any non KCBS Member GCs.

Thanks for pointing that out.

G$
04-13-2012, 01:40 PM
is there a smiley around here for "biting my tongue"??

:decision:

No. I would love to hear your thoughts.

roksmith
04-24-2012, 12:37 PM
Just got our letter from KCBS on the changes with the AR qualifications. If the notifications were already in the works, I apologize for jumping your stuff. Thanks for getting the letter out George.
Any work on any possible changes with the Jack qualifications?

Jorge
04-24-2012, 12:50 PM
Just got our letter from KCBS on the changes with the AR qualifications. If the notifications were already in the works, I apologize for jumping your stuff. Thanks for getting the letter out George.
Any work on any possible changes with the Jack qualifications?

Speaking solely for myself, and not KCBS or the board....

The Jack is an invitational, and has every right to set their standards for qualification. That being said, I am not aware of any changes at this point.

roksmith
04-24-2012, 02:11 PM
I understand that and I've emailed them. In fact, I emailed the same time I emailed the AR. Just haven't heard back from them and wondered if any conversations had taken place between KCBS and the Jack on the subject.
They are usually very quick to respond to queries and I would hate to see teams not get a bung in the draw because of a rule change that was not relayed.

Maybe they haven't made a decision or hadn't even thought about it.. I'm trying to look out for the teams and organizers at this point.

Jorge
04-24-2012, 02:46 PM
I understand that and I've emailed them. In fact, I emailed the same time I emailed the AR. Just haven't heard back from them and wondered if any conversations had taken place between KCBS and the Jack on the subject.
They are usually very quick to respond to queries and I would hate to see teams not get a bung in the draw because of a rule change that was not relayed.

Maybe they haven't made a decision or hadn't even thought about it.. I'm trying to look out for the teams and organizers at this point.

Again...Speaking Solely for myself and not for KCBS or the board....

They don't have a large staff. Based on past history replies seem to come a litter quicker the closer we are to the event.

I'm not authorized to speak on their behalf but based on history and personal experience they will do whatever they can to be responsive and make things right for teams. There are times in the past where they couldn't and I can understand most of them.

I appreciate your concerns, and if I hear anything and get clearance from the folks at the Jack I WILL share them.

Jeff_in_KC
05-01-2012, 06:42 PM
putting the burden onto the AR and Jack, as well as the organizers of qualifying events who must now submit paperwork along with the winning team. Of course they never notified anyone they were making this change. There was a one line reference in the BOD minutes.

Really? Is that correct? Because I got an email with the details listed AND digital copies of the forms needed to send to the winner of my contest. :roll: