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View Full Version : Rib picture - Perfect 180


BrooklynQ
08-08-2005, 08:01 PM
Here's a pic of a box of 180 perfect score ribs from the American Royal in 2003. Pretty!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/whitetrashbbq/180_Ribs_American_Royal_2003.jpg

BrooklynQ
08-08-2005, 08:13 PM
I wonder how it would score now with the change in the judging rules. Back then it was 9 and work your way down. And I don't see anything there that would bring that score down. Now it's start at 6 and work you're way up or down. Is it still a 9? Maybe. I'd have to see it in 3D. From the pic, it's an 8. Why? side ribs look dry and the one on the left looks to have a layer of fat or the membrane still attached. The lettuce gets a 9.

chad
08-08-2005, 08:16 PM
Lettuce 9! Yeah, ain't that a kicker. Magic Lettuce gets you a 9 and great meat "maybe" 8!! I love magic lettuce. I'll be SO glad when garnish goes away! Until then I continue the search for the magic lettuce patch.

2Fat
08-08-2005, 08:21 PM
Lettuce 9! Yeah, ain't that a kicker. Magic Lettuce gets you a 9 and great meat "maybe" 8!! I love magic lettuce. I'll be SO glad when garnish goes away! Until then I continue the search for the magic lettuce patch.

bet ya lettuce never goes away in the KCBS--but remember there is nothing in the rules that says ya gotta put the green stuff in the box!

Buzz
2fat bikers bbq

The_Kapn
08-08-2005, 08:27 PM
I wonder how it would score now with the change in the judging rules. Back then it was 9 and work your way down. And I don't see anything there that would bring that score down. Now it's start at 6 and work you're way up or down. Is it still a 9? Maybe. I'd have to see it in 3D. From the pic, it's an 8. Why? side ribs look dry and the one on the left looks to have a layer of fat or the membrane still attached. The lettuce gets a 9.
Too close to tell from a pic.
As to garnish--sticking out of box in a couple of areas--no big deal.

Looking at the knife-work, excellent! Center peices appear to have come "in order" from one slab. Almost identical sizes on the width.
Clean cuts with no ragged edges.
If they "bit off the bone"--Championship Quality for sure for texture/tenderness.

Taste? It is a pic--gotta trust the judges there :lol:

Obviously, a "PRO" did this great looking entry :twisted:

TIM

Jeff_in_KC
08-08-2005, 08:28 PM
So judges are told not to score based on whether there's lettuce in the box or not? It seems to me that turn-ins are a lot better looking with it. If I were judging on appearance, I'd be more attracted to the look of a box with good meat resting on nice looking lettuce. Why would you NOT want it? I've heard this before but with no reasoning except that it's one more thing to worry about.

The_Kapn
08-08-2005, 08:32 PM
So judges are told not to score based on whether there's lettuce in the box or not? It seems to me that turn-ins are a lot better looking with it. If I were judging on appearance, I'd be more attracted to the look of a box with good meat resting on nice looking lettuce. Why would you NOT want it? I've heard this before but with no reasoning except that it's one more thing to worry about.
Look out GrassHopper--hot button topic here :lol:

It is a Farkin meat contest--not a veggie dressing contest!

Everyone else can elaborate (and they will, I am sure) :lol:

TIM

BrooklynQ
08-08-2005, 08:41 PM
Jeff - Download the judges and cooks packets from the KCBS site. You need to know the rules inside and out BEFORE you start competing.

As for garnish, I like it. It makes the meat look better and it holds it in place for the presentation. I know it's called appearence, but in reality, the judges look at the box for maybe 15-30 seconds. It's really not long enough. If we're to judge the meat only on appearence, the judge should be allowed to remove the meat from the box and actually examine it, IMHO.

Arlin_MacRae
08-08-2005, 08:49 PM
Brooklyn, those are the meatiest, most solid ribs I've ever seen. I'm sure that has something to do with it, no? Meat selection?

kcpellethead
08-08-2005, 08:50 PM
That box belongs to Darren & Sherry Warth of Smokin' Clones BBQ. 2003 was Darren's first serious year at competing. He finished in the top five at the AR Open, but I can't remember the exact place.

As for the garnish topic, the use of lettuce and parsley in the box is what separates KCBS competition from other sanctioning bodies. I am a strong proponent of garnish. If the membership votes to do away with it, then I'll compete without it. However, as it's been said here, garnish is optional. The judges are instructed to judge the meat, not the greens. But, as someone else here said, the meat sure looks better laying on a nice bed of good looking greens. We eat with our eyes first. In my opinion, if a judge give you a 9 or 8 in appearance, it's harder to give you a lower score in taste or tenderness, unless you give them good cause.

Rod

BrooklynQ
08-08-2005, 08:52 PM
Brooklyn, those are the meatiest, most solid ribs I've ever seen. I'm sure that has something to do with it, no? Meat selection?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Arlin_MacRae
08-08-2005, 09:02 PM
Well, do you not look for the best cut when you're buying? I'm such a noob I'm not sure I could pick the right ones to even cook for a comp!

The_Kapn
08-08-2005, 09:03 PM
Brooklyn, those are the meatiest, most solid ribs I've ever seen. I'm sure that has something to do with it, no? Meat selection?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Arlin is dead on. Quality meat for competetion is hard to come by in some areas. A WallyWorld slab of ribs will never (probably) produce any results like that :lol:

That is why we shop hard for suppliers that have the right stuff to consistantly produce quality product.

And--Rod--I understand the garnish thing from the other side--for sure :lol:
It is pretty and it does seperate the pros from the "wanna be's".
Just another element or discriminator to the mix.

What ever the rules are, we will do it to the best of our ability.
Just hate to buy 5 friggin' heads of lettuce and then eat salad for a week :lol: :lol:

TIM

kcpellethead
08-08-2005, 09:08 PM
Arlin,

Those are Premium Standard Farms 2.5 and down loin back ribs. Unfortunately, PSF has a new national contract with OutBack Steakhouse and every slab of loin back ribs over 2 lbs. goes to them. I'm afraid those ribs might be gone forever.

Darren and I have discussed it at length. He will tell you that he can narrow down to two slabs of the six he cooks which ones he will put in the box before he cooks them. I disagree. We taste a rib from each of our six slabs because they vary in taste and tenderness. So, you could say that Darren thinks selecting the right ribs are super important, while I think it's a good start, but it's more important how they end up.

Rod

BrooklynQ
08-08-2005, 09:10 PM
Arlin - yeah you look for the best.

In one of the BBQ books I've read - I think it was Paul Kirk's, he recommended that when you want to start competing, you make good friends with a butcher. Tell him what you need the meat for and convince him to let you look thru his supply. Might take some doing, or some free BBQ, but convince him. When I was picking up the briskets for the Jersey competetion, the butcher and I looked thru 20 racks of ribs. He had some nice stuff, but Phil had already bought them.

Don't rely on the cryovaced stuff.

But to be honest, the stuff that Costco sells is usually pretty damn good.

Arlin_MacRae
08-08-2005, 09:12 PM
So Rod, you actually present ribs from different racks? I thought a clean, matched cut made a lot of difference?

kcpellethead
08-08-2005, 09:13 PM
By the way, I don't posses some freak ability to tell the brand and weight of cooked ribs. Darren didn't like his ribs that year and asked me to go get him a case from my supplier. The man beat me with my own ribs. We still laugh about that.

Rod

Arlin_MacRae
08-08-2005, 09:16 PM
HEHE Stuff to learn there, bro!

kcpellethead
08-08-2005, 09:17 PM
No, we present ribs from the same slab. We taste an end bone of each of our slabs to determine which we like the best, but ultimately we don't mix ribs from several different slabs.

Arlin_MacRae
08-08-2005, 09:19 PM
Ah. Check.

The_Kapn
08-08-2005, 09:27 PM
No, we present ribs from the same slab. We taste an end bone of each of our slabs to determine which we like the best, but ultimately we don't mix ribs from several different slabs.
The voice of a Pro there.

Chad and I have to hunt and peck--kills us on ribs :oops:
But, a Pro gets a slab right and wins!
We will be there someday if we survive :lol:

And, we have finally figured out which Brisket source fills the bill. 70 mile trip, but worth it.
Still have not found the "magic rib patch"--still looking for that :oops:

Meat selection is one of the key elements to run with the dogs :lol:

TIM

kcpellethead
08-08-2005, 09:40 PM
Tim,

I'm definitely no pro. I sure don't want to come off as a know-it-all. I'm not a great cook, so I have to seek out great meat. However, I get beat regularly by guys who waltz into Wal-Mart or Sam's Club and pick up average product. These same guys kick our tails all the time. They are the real cooks. They recognize what's good and what's bad about a piece of meat and make adjustments to get the best out of it. I can't do that. Just haven't cooked enough. Most of these guys we are seeing on OLN on the Outdoor BBQ Challenge. These are the guys I'm talking about.

Rod

Jeff_in_KC
08-08-2005, 10:33 PM
Jeff - Download the judges and cooks packets from the KCBS site. You need to know the rules inside and out BEFORE you start competing.

I don't have 'em ALL memorized yet but I did download the rules there awhile back and have read them 3-4 times. I also got a rule book with my KCBS membership packet today.

Jeff_in_KC
08-08-2005, 10:41 PM
As for meat selection, my plan is to hit some place like McGonigal's here in KC. Pellethead, what do you know about them? There used to be a good place close by me over in Lee's summit, Mr. Prime Beef, that sold outstanding meat. I've had good luck for backyard purposes with Sam'r Club but my only problem for contest meat is that Sam's babybacks are packaged three to a cryovac wrapper and you can't tell much about at least two slabs. You can just judge the top one and hope for the best beneath.

So is there a thread on meat selection somewhere to look at? I don't want to hi-jack the thread (although meat selection has a lot to do with the perfect 180 turn in!).

parrothead
08-09-2005, 01:26 AM
Back to the lettuce thingy. I used to think that it prettty much sucked, but in my discussion with brooklynq at grillkings, I realized that the best use we have for it is holding the meat in place right where you want it to. Otherwise it could tip over when you don't want it too.

chad
08-09-2005, 05:59 AM
I believe lettuce will eventually go away - but not until there is a changing of the mindset of the "old" judges - currently it is STRESSED at judge's meeting that garnish IS optional. Some teams are starting to score without garnish - but I don't think anyone has one.

As to holding the meat steady - put more meat in the box!! :D

We can certainly beat this thing to death again. There are pros and cons on both sides. And if lettuce is all that "sets KCBS apart" then that is a sad commentary on the quality of the cooks. These are supposed to be MEAT CONTESTS not salad!! :twisted:

kcpellethead
08-09-2005, 11:53 AM
Dave,

My comments about lettuce setting KCBS apart from other sanctioning bodies has nothing to do with the quality of cooks that compete in KCBS sanctioned contests. I'd put KCBS contest cooks up against any other sanctioning body cooks any time. Oh wait, that happens every year at the Jack. When's the last time a cook from a different sanctioning body won in Lynchburg? It does, however, speak for an aspect of a KCBS contest that other sanctioning bodies do not address or require. If you don't like lettuce there is always MIM or ICBA. Oh, and don't forgot, garnish is optional. :)

Rod
Pellet Envy

chad
08-09-2005, 12:12 PM
Rod;

Believe me, I understand! When I play with KCBS I do the lettuce thing - when I do FBA it's one less distraction. I was not disparaging any of the teams abilities. I do indeed compete in multiple associations and my opinion is just that, opinion.

As a cook I just don't truly appreciate having 14 percent (or whatever) of my score determined by lettuce and parsley. :D

I'm not trying to beat this horse again, honestly! As long as it's expected garnish will be in my KCBS boxes. I still want to find that magic lettuce patch!! :D

Each association has it's own standards and the differences make things interesting. I almost (almost!) feel sorry for teams that don't move out of their comfort zone and try other associations - I currently do FBA and KCBS - who knows, a MIM event may be in the future - BUT NOT NOW!! :D

And garnish is OPTIONAL in KCBS only in the rules - at this time! :D I really do think it will eventually go away - not soon but there are some top ranked teams that I've had the privelidge of talking to that are ready to lose the green!!! Not all by any means - some have access to that magic lettuce and do a wonderful job (deservedly so) with the garnish.

It's just like when MLB started playing games in AL and NL - there were differences and the "visitors" had to adjust. Same here. I always show up with 7-8 heads of lettuce and 2 or more bunches of parsley so that I can ensure I'll get the four boxes of "good stuff".

Qczar
08-09-2005, 03:15 PM
JMO as well, ....... but as in all presented cooking, whether in a resturant, at one of these Q comps, or the home kitchen dinner table, 'presenting' a cooks prepared meal is part of the skills of the cook/chef. Clearly judging had to limit the use of greens, but it`s good to have at least something (as in some lettuce`s and parsley`s). In realitly, the arangement of the meats and greens should be judged, not the perfectness of the greens themselves.

What blows my mind, is the fact that these comps use diner grade syrofoam take out containers for the entries! One, they are as far from a natrual product as you can get. Two, styrofoam is a chemical that is not good for you. Three, they are butt ugly. Clearly, these comps can afford more of a quality thick paper product as these entry containers.

2Fat
08-09-2005, 04:45 PM
No, we present ribs from the same slab. We taste an end bone of each of our slabs to determine which we like the best, but ultimately we don't mix ribs from several different slabs.

that is our usual practice too---but with not cooking much this year haven't got the system working yet---here are the ribs that got 7th at Shannon--obviously cut from different racks---you will notice that I screwed up and didn't lay the ribs the same way on the racks in the cooker!!! Decided to cook loinbacks that Friday 'cause we couldn't find any decent spares--cooked 6 racks and think there is a bone from each in that box<sf>---1st time that we cooked loinbacks in more than 2yrs!

The only place I can get contest meat is at Sams--usually buy a case of ribs per contest and sort--same with butts&briskets.

Nice seeing ya here Rod---did I ever thank you for the greens at the AR last year???

see ya
Buzz
2fat bikers bbq

Solidkick
08-09-2005, 06:39 PM
I wonder how it would score now with the change in the judging rules. Back then it was 9 and work your way down. And I don't see anything there that would bring that score down. Now it's start at 6 and work you're way up or down. Is it still a 9? Maybe. I'd have to see it in 3D. From the pic, it's an 8. Why? side ribs look dry and the one on the left looks to have a layer of fat or the membrane still attached. The lettuce gets a 9.

Back to the original concept of the thread........I had the same thoughts as BQ on the different scoring, then and now. My eyes go to the ribs in the center first, definite 9, but then when I scan the box, the ribs on the side kinda sways me away from my original thought. But...that's because I know that in 2005, 6 is the mid point....in 2003, starting at 9, I probably would give a 9 and felt strongly about it.
Would MY eyes, which are connected to my taste buds and my stomach, thought the same of these ribs in just a styrofoam box with a layer of foil underneath? Not if I'd seen other boxes presented before, at my table, with garnish.