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Sledneck
03-27-2012, 10:10 AM
I do recall one of the platforms spoken about during the election was making the 30 some pages of rep advisories public. Hows that going?

YankeeBBQ
03-27-2012, 10:20 AM
They're already public. Located in the download section of the KCBS website. http://kcbs.us/pdf/contest-rep-advisories-2010.pdf

bover
03-27-2012, 10:45 AM
Yep. They've been public for a long time, although I don't think very many people were aware of it. If I remember correctly, the talk during the election campaigning revolved around heightening cook/judge awareness of them as well as reviewing them for consideration of implementing the relevant advisories in to the rule book if feasible.

Sledneck
03-27-2012, 10:52 AM
Yep. They've been public for a long time, although I don't think very many people were aware of it. If I remember correctly, the talk during the election campaigning revolved around heightening cook/judge awareness of them as well as reviewing them for consideration of implementing the relevant advisories in to the rule book if feasible.

Sorry thats what I should of written. The idea og getting them incorporated or eliminated

carlyle
03-27-2012, 11:24 AM
I downloaded them a year or 2 ago and used them as a guide to help with our
organization.

I found them quite useful.

arlieque
03-27-2012, 09:20 PM
They're already public. Located in the download section of the KCBS website. http://kcbs.us/pdf/contest-rep-advisories-2010.pdf

do we know why this hasnt been updated. I know for three or four that arent on that PDF?

Bunny
03-27-2012, 09:23 PM
do we know why this hasnt been updated. I know for three or four that arent on that PDF?

Rep Committee has worked on it but it has to go through the BOD for approval.

Rookie'48
03-27-2012, 09:34 PM
The Rep advisories are being looked at, along with the Rules themselves, by the Rules Committee. Our goal on this Committee is to consolidate and simplify each Rule / Advisory.
If any of you have any constructive suggestions for our committee please send them either to me at dcompton@kcbs.us or to the whole committee at rules@kcbs.us and we will take a look at your suggestions. No promises on any one idea becoming an official rule but we will look at it.

Slow fingers here, after I posted I read Bunny's ^^^^^ post. Yes, any changes that a committee passes goes before the BoD for approval / denial.

Sledneck
03-27-2012, 09:40 PM
The Rep advisories are being looked at, along with the Rules themselves, by the Rules Committee. Our goal on this Committee is to consolidate and simplify each Rule / Advisory.
If any of you have any constructive suggestions for our committee please send them either to me at dcompton@kcbs.us or to the whole committee at rules@kcbs.us and we will take a look at your suggestions. No promises on any one idea becoming an official rule but we will look at it.

Slow fingers here, after I posted I read Bunny's ^^^^^ post. Yes, any changes that a committee passes goes before the BoD for approval / denial.
Suggestion


G E T R I D O F P O R K P A R T I N G R U L E

Bunny
03-28-2012, 07:37 AM
Suggestion


G E T R I D O F P O R K P A R T I N G R U L E

I've been fighting that since it began, so Amen, brother, to you on that one.

drbbq
03-28-2012, 08:03 AM
So then it can just be a pork chop contest? I think that would be a huge mistake.

Jeff_in_KC
03-28-2012, 08:50 AM
Ray, it is to allow parting pork. It won't allow different cuts of meat. I guess if you wanna slice a butt into pork steak, that's fine if you have the ability to do so at a comp. No idea why anyone would want to do that though.

arlieque
03-28-2012, 11:54 AM
Rep Committee has worked on it but it has to go through the BOD for approval.

there are at least 3 that the bod has approved and never sent out. One of them is 6 months old. The other two are 4 months old.

Smoke'n Ice
03-28-2012, 04:36 PM
Ray, it is to allow parting pork. It won't allow different cuts of meat. I guess if you wanna slice a butt into pork steak, that's fine if you have the ability to do so at a comp. No idea why anyone would want to do that though.

Have you possibly considered that a pork tenderloin can be trimmed in such a was as to resemble the "money muscle". If parting is allowed, there is nothing that would prevent this or be detectable by the reps or judges, so it would become a pulled and chunked pork butt with sliced pork tenderloin contest.

roksmith
03-28-2012, 04:47 PM
I don't mind the parting rule, and wouldn't mind it going a bit further. Make the entire turn in box come from a single piece of meat/slab of ribs. Other than chicken of course.
In fact if you really wanted to turn this into a skills competition, allow only a single butt, a single brisket and a single slab of ribs to be cooked. Now.. you are testing the abilities of the pitmaster.
It takes much more skill to produce suitable turn in quality meat when you only have one shot at it.

Slamdunkpro
03-28-2012, 05:21 PM
They're already public. Located in the download section of the KCBS website. http://kcbs.us/pdf/contest-rep-advisories-2010.pdf
I don't understand why the rules haven't been updated (other than they wouldn't fit on a single page) and the relivant rep advisories incorporated. It seems disingenuous to publish a set of rules that new cooks download and then have 20-30 rep advisories which are for practical purposes rule changes / amendments in another location.


Have you possibly considered that a pork tenderloin can be trimmed in such a was as to resemble the "money muscle". If parting is allowed, there is nothing that would prevent this or be detectable by the reps or judges, so it would become a pulled and chunked pork butt with sliced pork tenderloin contest.

Wasn't that the reason for the parting rule in the first place?

Smoke'n Ice
03-28-2012, 06:35 PM
Wasn't that the reason for the parting rule in the first place?

Yep!

Candy Sue
03-29-2012, 08:54 AM
My problem with the parting rule is it should not take precedence over rule 17(g & h)

g. After cooking, all meat:
Must be held at 140° F or above OR
Cooked meat shall be cooled as follows:
Within 2 hours from 140° F to 70° F and
Within 4 hours from 70° F to 41° F or less
h. Meat that is cooked, properly cooled, and later reheated
for hot holding and serving shall be reheated so that all
parts of the food reach a temperature of at least 165° F
for a minimum of 15 seconds.

After seeing a certain cook trim his pork butt last year, I think the parting rule doesn't achieve it's intent. I'm not in favor of cold pork hitting the judging table.

This is my opinion only...

HoDeDo
03-29-2012, 09:04 AM
Have you possibly considered that a pork tenderloin can be trimmed in such a was as to resemble the "money muscle". If parting is allowed, there is nothing that would prevent this or be detectable by the reps or judges, so it would become a pulled and chunked pork butt with sliced pork tenderloin contest.

I've gotten plenty of pork calls over the years... so I guess I can beat the cheaters... so let them cheat. How about I cook better and just beat them that way :)

Candy is right... the parting rule is about parting it out before cooking. After it's cooked why can't I slice/chunk/pull, then sauce, and finish/hold hot like I can every other cut of meat? The rep advisory around pork not going back onto the pit after being parted... is the piece we need to get back to reality on. Now, I'm fine either way -- everyone else has to turn in cold pork too... and my scores are not effected either way... but it is near impossible to enforce that advisory, so we have to trust the other cooks... if someone is going to cheat... they were going to cheat anyway, and have it parted to begin with. I like the Parting rule... as it was written; but once my meat is cooked, let me do whatever I want with it. :rolleyes:

My problem with the parting rule is it should not take precedence over rule 17(g & h)

g. After cooking, all meat:
Must be held at 140 F or above OR
Cooked meat shall be cooled as follows:
Within 2 hours from 140 F to 70 F and
Within 4 hours from 70 F to 41 F or less
h. Meat that is cooked, properly cooled, and later reheated
for hot holding and serving shall be reheated so that all
parts of the food reach a temperature of at least 165 F
for a minimum of 15 seconds.

After seeing a certain cook trim his pork butt last year, I think the parting rule doesn't achieve it's intent. I'm not in favor of cold pork hitting the judging table.

This is my opinion only...

Smoke'n Ice
03-29-2012, 04:20 PM
Why not change the rule on pork butt to read:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be trimmed or separated except to remove excess fat. The meat must be cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degree F. Once this temperature is reached, the pork may be removed from the cooker, separated, parted, wrapped, etc. and returned to the cooker or not. At this point in the cook cycle, rule 17, section g and h must be adhered to.

G$
03-29-2012, 05:28 PM
I don't mind the parting rule, and wouldn't mind it going a bit further. Make the entire turn in box come from a single piece of meat/slab of ribs. Other than chicken of course.
In fact if you really wanted to turn this into a skills competition, allow only a single butt, a single brisket and a single slab of ribs to be cooked. Now.. you are testing the abilities of the pitmaster.
It takes much more skill to produce suitable turn in quality meat when you only have one shot at it.

Throw me in the penalty box because I am going to agree with you and take the thread farther off topic: I think whole cooked shoulders should have to be turned in. Yes, whole, picked/pulled at the table. FWIW, I think whole chickens should have to be turned in too. And full racks of ribs. Brisket is "slices from a flat". I understand I am crazy :loco: and these things will never ever ever happen and present their own problems. So ...

Back on topic, lets ask what the intent of the "pork cut definition", and the "no parting" rule are to begin with: To ensure teams are cooking "classic" pork shoulder, in the "traditional" style. What is so wrong with that? (and if you want to argue those terms are unclear, then you will find an argument in just about anytthing you want)

As an aside, when possible, I am all for REDUCING rules in order to add clarity, rather than adding to them. It is possible.

YankeeBBQ
03-30-2012, 07:10 PM
maybe the way to fix it is not to allow parting in any category so that our rules are consistant.

drbbq
03-30-2012, 10:56 PM
I don't understand why you guys serve cold pork? Why can't you reheat the whole butt?

Skip
03-31-2012, 12:33 AM
Why is it that we can't understand the intent of the rule. It wasn't to limit your saucing technique, it wasn't to offer you the opportunity to butterfly out the butt into a 2 ft long slab of meat, it wasn't to promote the near separation of the money muscle it was to offer a legitimate starting point that all could achieve. A weight to make sure it wasn't suckling and a large dense cut to showcase technique.


Somehow the "voices of BBQ" have turned this rule into something its not. For some reason people tend to think that the parting rule was meant for all time. Cradle to grave so to speak. Unfortunately that makes you wonder when in fact you can actually dismantle the pork to put it in the box. In fact the only way the rule, as it was written for so long, can be interpreted as they say would mean that the whole entire butt be placed in the box unmolested. Because it states "and not parted". Don't tell me thats foolish because grammatically that is the only interpretation. If you feel that at any point in the process, even at the time of box building, that the pork can be dismantled then you must accept that when the butt has been cooked and removed with possibly resting it can be dismantled. At this point your only issue is to keep it warm. Some will say "You can cheat that way" and I will reply that I could cut my butt into 16 pieces cook it however I liked and probably get away with it. Does that mean I will? In the end our trust in our fellow competitors integrity is the only thing that makes any of this work. We can't approach this as a law to be enforced but rather a guideline for competitors to follow. Which is what all of our rules are. For some reason this one has really blown up because of many different perceptions of the rule. A real powderkeg. But when all is said and done we have to realize that this society was founded by friendly people with a friendly set of guidelines to ensure as fair a contest as possible. The competitor was charged with ensuring their own integrity. The large prize pools and lucrative sponsorships and ancillary winnings have some looking for more restrictions. Something they feel will ensure a better outcome. Unfortunately it will probably only create a different outcome and in doing so may change the face of a society many like just the way it is. The membership as a whole needs to decide if we want to hold dear the traditions set forth by the founders or if we want to go forward being more of a contests then a BBQ showcase with prizes. If its all about the money then everything else falls away.

Lastly may I say that removing the pork parting rule completely would be devastating to the category and to the integrity of the rules set. Integrity is based on consistency not only in measure and principle but in action and expectation. The rules tend to inspire technique whereas the removal of a challenge such as this will dumb down the category. The need for a defined portion of meat changes if the parting rule is removed as well. Why limit to a shoulder, or part thereof, if there is not expectation of cooking it whole in a traditional manner?

Jorge
03-31-2012, 09:01 AM
But when all is said and done we have to realize that this society was founded by friendly people with a friendly set of guidelines to ensure as fair a contest as possible. The competitor was charged with ensuring their own integrity. The large prize pools and lucrative sponsorships and ancillary winnings have some looking for more restrictions. Something they feel will ensure a better outcome. Unfortunately it will probably only create a different outcome and in doing so may change the face of a society many like just the way it is. The membership as a whole needs to decide if we want to hold dear the traditions set forth by the founders or if we want to go forward being more of a contests then a BBQ showcase with prizes. If its all about the money then everything else falls away.



My comments are mine, and mine alone and do not represent KCBS or the board...

Well reasoned and presented. Just as importantly, the rules/guidelines were established to create a level playing field. A past board ruled on the issue, and issued an advisory that has been read at cooks meetings. The intent? Keep the playing field level.

I know a lot of great cooks that have found methods to still cook within the rules and turn in a superior product the judges will reward them for. I have NO DOUBT that there are other cooks that are taking some shortcuts. Who is that most likely to hurt? You probably won't find many victims at the top of the ToY standings, or picking up checks on Saturday. The teams that are most likely to be harmed are those in the middle of the pack.

Personally, I have no problem seeing the parting rule going away. I didn't have a problem arguing for it at the time this was a raging debate two years ago. It was the rule at that time, and needed to be upheld for at least the remainder of that season. If someone is going to sub a tenderloin they will do it regardless. With the techniques developed I really don't see many people taking the risk, but some may. If they get caught, they need to pay the penalty. Everybody else, cook and enjoy yourselves.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested that cooks be limited to one piece of meat per category to create a great test of ability. Doesn't that also introduce more of an element of chance? Each piece of meat cooks differently. I'd hate to see someone penalized because a beautiful slab of ribs remained tough even though they appeared nice and well marbled. Beyond that, I've spoken to more than one VERY WELL KNOWN cook that only cooks one brisket or one butt. The theory being that they are monitoring fewer pieces of meat and it's easier for them.

Ultimately, I'd like to see cooks with more options rather than less.

Skip
03-31-2012, 01:31 PM
My apologies. i seem to have missed the point of comparison with the quoted text?

Are we agreeing or disagreeing?

Jorge
04-01-2012, 01:45 PM
My apologies. i seem to have missed the point of comparison with the quoted text?

Are we agreeing or disagreeing?

Perhaps I missed the point of yours:mrgreen:

Jeff_in_KC
04-01-2012, 09:56 PM
Why not change the rule on pork butt to read:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be trimmed or separated except to remove excess fat. The meat must be cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degree F. Once this temperature is reached, the pork may be removed from the cooker, separated, parted, wrapped, etc. and returned to the cooker or not. At this point in the cook cycle, rule 17, section g and h must be adhered to.

Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?

Smoke'n Ice
04-02-2012, 06:38 AM
Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?

The same person who is standing around making sure we don't part the pork and put it back on.

You missed the point, temp guidelines are needed to ensure food safety based on FDA requirements and that is why they are a part of the rules now. Who enforces them, me and my cook, not the HD, at my restaurant. The HD makes the rules and we follow them. The consequences are somewhat severe if we don't, sickness, lawsuits and loss of business license.

Simplify, and bring into line with the other categories, the rules since they are only enforceable, in the most part, by the cooks, and allow them to at least practice food safety legally. Four hours in the danger zone is a lifetime for most food borne illnesses.

You put in FDA temperature guidelines as a defensible position for future actions if it becomes necessary.

G$
04-02-2012, 04:58 PM
Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?

Just so I am clear, are you saying that if a rule can not be enforced, it should not be a rule?

Scottie
04-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?


Disagree. If there are 3 or 4 spot checks on teams on Saturday morning by the reps. You wouldn't have teams cheating. The reps can keep it random by pulling the teams out of a hat. With that threat of being caught would be a bigger hindrance than what we have now.

Candy Sue
04-08-2012, 08:11 PM
Disagree. If there are 3 or 4 spot checks on teams on Saturday morning by the reps. You wouldn't have teams cheating. The reps can keep it random by pulling the teams out of a hat. With that threat of being caught would be a bigger hindrance than what we have now.

I do not work for a restaurant but I am a ServSafe cook. Food borne illness is just terrible! I don't want to be the cause of any person's gastric distress because I've not followed correct food handling procedures. I like this idea. Not just for one category though. Proper food handling should be a goal of every cook team.

This is only my opinion...

Rich Parker
04-09-2012, 11:16 AM
I do not work for a restaurant but I am a ServSafe cook. Food borne illness is just terrible! I don't want to be the cause of any person's gastric distress because I've not followed correct food handling procedures. I like this idea. Not just for one category though. Proper food handling should be a goal of every cook team.

This is only my opinion...

It would be nice to have someone teach or give an overview of ServSafe procedures to the cooks before/after the cook's meeting.

drbbq
04-09-2012, 11:32 AM
It would be nice to have someone teach or give an overview of ServSafe procedures to the cooks before/after the cook's meeting.

I think Paul Kirk is working on that. Another decade or so and he should have a report.

Slamdunkpro
04-09-2012, 01:35 PM
It would be nice to have someone teach or give an overview of ServSafe procedures to the cooks before/after the cook's meeting.

I think Paul Kirk is working on that. Another decade or so and he should have a report.

Great:wacko: Then you'll have to take the KCBS official "CSCC*" (Certified Safe Competition Cook*) class for $100 and keep your membership current to be allowed to compete.






*CSCC and Certified Safe Competition Cook are the intellectual property of Slamdunkpro and may not be reproduced, utilized or otherwise incorporated into any food related contest or event, existing or in the future, conducted in any medium, on any planet known or unknown or any any realm of reality or dimension discovered or undiscovered without paying huge residuals and royalties in perpetuity. Failure to abide by these, or any other conditions that I might think up now or after the fact will result in a C&D letter of the most forceful language.

Smoke'n Ice
04-09-2012, 01:57 PM
Actually, there are servsafe courses available on CD with a test online at the end. It would be simple for KCBS to make it available to the membership on a cost plus basis on the website.

Slamdunkpro
04-09-2012, 02:19 PM
It would be nice to have someone teach or give an overview of ServSafe procedures to the cooks before/after the cook's meeting.

Actually, there are servsafe courses available on CD with a test online at the end. It would be simple for KCBS to make it available to the membership on a cost plus basis on the website.

In all seriousness I don't think we want to open that door. No one goes out with the idea of making anyone sick. Once you open the ServSafe door how far is it to every competitor has to have a HD permit / inspection / all equipment has to be NSF / all sites have to have ground cover / hair nets / there has to be a ServSafe food manager on site for the entire duration / any off site prep has to be done in a certified commissary and on and on and on.

I know that all the caterers with rigs will read this and go "so, I do it all the time" and that's great, but most comp cooks aren't caterers. If you want to crush the life out of a expanding game / sport / pastime, smother it with over the top government regulation.

Smoke'n Ice
04-09-2012, 05:31 PM
I don't think the intent would be to intorduce it as a requirement but only as a guidline. An example is what is the minimum temp that each of the products we cook is required to reach? What is the hot hold temp? what is the low hold temp? what is the time and temp for reheat? what is the time for hold outside safe zone? what do you do with the product once it is outside the safe zone time? What do you do to the product that has been outside the safe zone but is still within the time line? Record keeping? HAND WASHING prior to gloving! why is that necessary? use of sanitizer! These are just a few of the guidlines that most competition cooks don't know or realize their importance.

Slamdunkpro
04-09-2012, 05:48 PM
I don't think the intent would be to intorduce it as a requirement but only as a guidline. An example is what is the minimum temp that each of the products we cook is required to reach? What is the hot hold temp? what is the low hold temp? what is the time and temp for reheat? what is the time for hold outside safe zone? what do you do with the product once it is outside the safe zone time? What do you do to the product that has been outside the safe zone but is still within the time line? Record keeping? HAND WASHING prior to gloving! why is that necessary? use of sanitizer! These are just a few of the guidlines that most competition cooks don't know or realize their importance.
I respectfully disagree - First, guidelines have a habit of becoming rules. Second, comp cooks aren't running a day long vend or restaurant operation. Comp temperatures and sanitation are specified in the rules and most contests are well within the window of hold times. Do you seriously expect comp cooks to keep temp logs?

How about we go to the system like the People's Choice at MIM so everyone is SAFE? When you take your turn in box to the table there's someone there with a thermometer; they open your box and in goes the probe! Not at 140? Well we have this handy oven, please empty your box into a aluminum pan and we'll put it in the oven for 10 minutes at 500 degrees to insure it's SAFE. Then you can reload your turn in box and submit it for judging. Yeah, this was a bit of a stretch,,,,,or is it?

Smoke'n Ice
04-09-2012, 07:45 PM
In my capacity as an engineer, I have traveled all over the world to include all continents except Australia and to all the states except Hawaii. I carried Lomotil to all of them except the US. The places that it was needed by me are the UK and India. Food bourn gastric distress is a real problem and improper handling of food or improper temperature constraints or improper hygienic conditions are the major issue. I have spent several months in hospitals over my life time because of these issues and really believe in the servesafe requirement in the US regardless of the venue. All we need is one person to attribute their problem to a KCBS contest and the defecation will hit the rotating oscillator.

Candy Sue
04-09-2012, 07:47 PM
Every state has different requirements for ServSafe certification. I took the online course and had to go to Little Rock to be supervised during the test. Paul did have a ServSafe class at the January 2011 banquet -- probably for Missouri or Kansas only. Much of the study program doesn't apply at all to cooking barbeque, like how to measure milk temperature when you take delivery of a shipment of single serve cartons. With that said, knowing proper cleanliness and raw meat handling/storage protocols, safe cooking temps and times, finish temps is very valuable.

Ford
04-09-2012, 08:19 PM
I agree with Candy that servsafe is overkill for competition. Temps are already in the rules. Hand washing and gloves are excellent ways to help safety but most teams do not have adequate hand washing setup. Putting on gloves with dirty hands will cut down on the problem but can't be a perfect solution. Most teams do the best they can. Seeing bare hands on tv shows doesn't help The KCBS should have a gloves rule.

I think a hand wash station inspection by reps Friday afternoon or evening by reps would be a good idea. Every team should gave a free flow hot water system with catch pial. You should not use the 3bay sinks.

FYI. I am servsafe certified thru 2014 and have a trailer with a 10 gallon hot water heater that is set to high temp. I always wash hands after the bathroom, a cigar and try every time before gloving. However when doing a box if the gloves get messed with glaze I may change them on the fly without washing hands. Better than not regloving. Same with going from hot meat gloves to food handlers.

Funtimebbq
04-09-2012, 10:05 PM
So, what is the BOD going to do about updating the Rep Advisories?

Benny

YankeeBBQ
04-10-2012, 03:36 PM
So, what is the BOD going to do about updating the Rep Advisories?

Benny

The rules committee is in the process of reviewing all rules and rep advisories and plans to make recommendations to the BOD to clarify and simplify the rules. It will be up to the entire board whether to make any changes or not.

No rules will be changed during the contest year. Any actions taken by the board will not take effect until the 2013 competition season.

Sledneck
04-11-2012, 04:56 AM
The rules committee is in the process of reviewing all rules and rep advisories and plans to make recommendations to the BOD to clarify and simplify the rules. It will be up to the entire board whether to make any changes or not.

No rules will be changed during the contest year. Any actions taken by the board will not take effect until the 2013 competition season.
nice answer, youre getting good at this. Unfortunately Ive heard that exact answer in years past. Guess we'll havd to wait and see

Jorge
04-11-2012, 09:13 AM
nice answer, youre getting good at this. Unfortunately Ive heard that exact answer in years past. Guess we'll havd to wait and see

Leave Steve alone and go measure some columns....