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View Full Version : State Championship....Why? [Redux]


dmprantz
03-26-2012, 08:51 AM
Twice recently I've been in conversations here about state championship proclamations and their usefulness outside of The Jack and the ARI. Both times I've come away with the conclusion that they are in fact useless and serve as nothing more than a hurdle for organizers to jump through. Well in response to the recent ARI changes, I got a copy of a comp's proclamation and find what it says rather interesting:

Whereas, dedicated to furthering the art of hardwood smoking, (this organizer) takes great pride in hosting this tremendous competition as the contest will draw contestants from all over the State of Tennessee as well as several other states to participate in the event; and

Whereas, the greatest recognition a berbeque cook can obtain is the opportunity in the American Royal Invitational Cook Off, the Great American and the Jack Daniels World Championship Barbeque, which are open to all winners of state certified championships; and

Whereas the Grand Champion of the contest will qualify for the American Royal, Great American, and Jack Daniels World Championships barbeque competitions; now, therefore,

I...hereby proclaim that we join with barbeque enthusiasts across this great State in recognizing (this competition) as an office State Barbeque Championship for the State of Tennessee

The way I read that, while they recognize that this competition may draw teams from more that on city, they specfically state that the reason for the proclamation is to qualify for The Jack, ARI, and GABI. Really, is this doing anything other than making life more difficult for organizers and more expensive for taxpayers? States like CA with blanket proclamations seem to make the State Championship mean even less since it's basically any contest.

I know that BF and the AR can run their shows however they like, and far be it from me to tell then what to do, but the more I learn about state championship proclamations, the more I decide that they are totally worthless, and should probably be ignored by invitationals. Does any one think they serve any real purpose anymore given that the only reason they are issued (at least in this state) is because they are required for this purpose?

Texas was pointed out as a state with lots of non-championship competitions that would change if the rule went away. Is that state in a minority though? How many other states would suffer that same fate? I'm sure some of you are tired of hearing about this, but if it keeps coming up, maybe that means it's something worth actually discussing and not ignoring. Let me know your thoughts in light of Tennessee's proclamation guidelines...

dmp

CBQ
03-26-2012, 10:00 AM
To me, the purpose of the proclamation is now just to make you more Since it's no longer a KCBS requirement stressed if you win a contest. One more thing to worry about. Teams are now dependent on the organizers to do the paperwork AFTER the contest. That will not be a priority for many organizers that are more focused on putting on the event.

With the new rules, we now have to wonder and hope the organizer of the contest where we won our GC is going to send in the paperwork. The contest was 6 months ago, she has moved on to other things.

We assumed that we were a lock for the Royal, and likely for the Jack (currently an auto-qualifier, and we are the only team in the home state draw right now), but who knows.

TTNuge
03-26-2012, 10:26 AM
Never having organized a comp before I guess I would need to know the amount of added work this really requires? Is it a simple as sending in a request form or is it a lot of work to get done? What are the actual dollar costs as well as the added man hour costs?

Without that I don't even know if it's worth worrying about. The frequency that the topic comes up may have little relevance considering the fact that some/many people just love to debate, discuss and argue regardless.

Grizmt
03-26-2012, 11:01 AM
The one question I've always had about this "state championship" thing is it's use (or overuse) to describe multiple people/events within the same state. One would think that there should/could be only ONE state champion and hence one championship event. I can see multiple city,county or regional qualifiers but state?
I mean seriously, they don't have multiple super bowls in each state nor do they have multiples of any other championship named events in each state that I'm aware of.:crazy:

YankeeBBQ
03-26-2012, 11:09 AM
The one question I've always had about this "state championship" thing is it's use (or overuse) to describe multiple people/events within the same state. One would think that there should/could be only ONE state champion and hence one championship event. I can see multiple city,county or regional qualifiers but state?
I mean seriously, they don't have multiple super bowls in each state nor do they have multiples of any other championship named events in each state that I'm aware of.:crazy:

I don't disagree with that but the question then becomes who decides which contest is the State Championship ? The State ? The Sanctioning organization ? The Jack ? The Royal ? Oh my head.

dmprantz
03-26-2012, 11:15 AM
CBQ, for a past competition, I contacted the organizer directly and had the completed forms mailed to me to send to The Royal. I would suggest others do the same to maintain some control over the situation. For future contests, it was suggested that every one travel with copies of the forms for organizers to fill out in case of a GC. I plan to ask organizers to have a copy of a proclamation on hand at the competition, or available for download from the website in advance. Just some thoughts.

TTNuge, I'll agree that I enjoy a good debate, but more importantly, I'm not affraid to ask questions. Blind obedience does little to advance communities nor civilizations. If some colonists didn't question the requirement that they pay taxes to a king an ocean away, we might be living in a very different country today. No, I'm not claiming that the ARI and BF's requirement of a proclamation is on the same order of magnatude as over-taxation, but the principal is largely the same: Don't stick your head in the sand and say "it's the way things have always been" and go along. Ask questions. If they lead to healthy debate, great! If things can change (read "improve") all the better, but you won't know if you don't ask. Note, this is not meant as an attack to you TTNuge, just an explaination as to why I have brought it up. Obviously, it needs to be broght up to The Royal and BF, not The Brethren, but this place may be a good start.

That being said, it doesn't really matter to me if it's an easy or cheap process. The easier it is, the more worthless it becomes, yet the harder it is, the more I wonder why it's needed in the first place. The question remains unchanged on either end of the spectrum: Does it make sense to require a "status" of a competition whose only purpose is to fulfill that requirement and means absolutely nothing outside of it? Might as well call it a TPS report and put on the right cover sheet.

dmp

Jorge
03-26-2012, 11:16 AM
Twice recently I've been in conversations here about state championship proclamations and their usefulness outside of The Jack and the ARI. Both times I've come away with the conclusion that they are in fact useless and serve as nothing more than a hurdle for organizers to jump through. Well in response to the recent ARI changes, I got a copy of a comp's proclamation and find what it says rather interesting:



The way I read that, while they recognize that this competition may draw teams from more that on city, they specfically state that the reason for the proclamation is to qualify for The Jack, ARI, and GABI. Really, is this doing anything other than making life more difficult for organizers and more expensive for taxpayers? States like CA with blanket proclamations seem to make the State Championship mean even less since it's basically any contest.

I know that BF and the AR can run their shows however they like, and far be it from me to tell then what to do, but the more I learn about state championship proclamations, the more I decide that they are totally worthless, and should probably be ignored by invitationals. Does any one think they serve any real purpose anymore given that the only reason they are issued (at least in this state) is because they are required for this purpose?

Texas was pointed out as a state with lots of non-championship competitions that would change if the rule went away. Is that state in a minority though? How many other states would suffer that same fate? I'm sure some of you are tired of hearing about this, but if it keeps coming up, maybe that means it's something worth actually discussing and not ignoring. Let me know your thoughts in light of Tennessee's proclamation guidelines...

dmp

Thanks for remembering me. Instead of focussing on the process, what would the potential results be? How will it impact contests, old and knew? How about the teams? In some regions you would potentially create the opportunity for more 7- win automatics for the Jack.

How can you say the current process makes no sense, without knowing what the result would be or at least being able to take a reasonable guess?

dmprantz
03-26-2012, 11:40 AM
Instead of focussing on the process, what would the potential results be? How will it impact contests, old and knew? How about the teams? In some regions you would potentially create the opportunity for more 7- win automatics for the Jack.

How can you say the current process makes no sense, without knowing what the result would be or at least being able to take a reasonable guess?

Good point as always, but consider this: What are the potential results of not changing things? Some states already have blanket proclamations. CA's is relatively new. TN gives them out only for this purpose. How many other states do that, and what if some of these other states decide to start issuing blanket proclamations. What then? If 10 states, including 30% of all qualifiers have blanket proclamations, what does that mean to the events, and the other 70% of the comps?

As it is right now, today, The Royal has put the power in the organizer's hands of who gets an invite and who doesn't. If the organizer doesn't want a comp to count, don't send in the paperwork. If organizers currently don't care enough to get a proclamation, would they care enough to send in paperwork?

dmp

timzcardz
03-26-2012, 11:45 AM
Really, is this doing anything other than making life more difficult for organizers and more expensive for taxpayers?

I would argue that . . .

1. It does serve to advance and promote the awareness of BBQ in some manner.

2. It does generate tax revenues in the form of sales tax, gasoline tax, hotel room tax, etc.

3. With the number of proclamations that government puts out daily for any number of reasons, the cost to taxpayers to put out the same proclamation over and over again is minimal.



(I have no idea what difficulties organizers may or may not face in obtaining a proclamation so I can't comment on that.)

Jorge
03-26-2012, 11:49 AM
Good point as always, but consider this: What are the potential results of not changing things? Some states already have blanket proclamations. CA's is relatively new. TN gives them out only for this purpose. How many other states do that, and what if some of these other states decide to start issuing blanket proclamations. What then? If 10 states, including 30% of all qualifiers have blanket proclamations, what does that mean to the events, and the other 70% of the comps?

As it is right now, today, The Royal has put the power in the organizer's hands of who gets an invite and who doesn't. If the organizer doesn't want a comp to count, don't send in the paperwork. If organizers currently don't care enough to get a proclamation, would they care enough to send in paperwork?

dmp

If you you can show some reasonable benefits, I think you've got something. I just don't know that you've looked at all angles from what you've expressed. If you want to do something to create change, then bring some data and/or projections forward that can be verified to base the discussion on. Without that, this discussion like so many others is based on speculation and emotion.

I'm fine with supporting a change if the data supports it. Right now, I see additional turmoil if due diligence isn't done.

dmprantz
03-26-2012, 11:49 AM
1. It does serve to advance and promote the awareness of BBQ in some manner.

2. It does generate tax revenues in the form of sales tax, gasoline tax, hotel room tax, etc.

Just so I know what you are saying, how does having a proclamation cause a comp to advance and promote BBQ any more than not having one? Similarly, how does a comp with a proclamation generate any more tax revenue than one without? The draw of the teams? A lot of teams don't buy their fuel local nor stay in a motel nor shop.

dmp

dmprantz
03-26-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm fine with supporting a change if the data supports it. Right now, I see additional turmoil if due diligence isn't done.

I think I see it now. My question was "Why require proclamations if they don't 'mean' anything?" Your response is "Why change it if there is no perceived problems, particularly when changing it could introduce problems?" As a competitor, I guess it's in the hands of the organizers to request a change if there is a problem. I know of one organizer who has called it a problem and tried to make it a change, but perhaps he is in the minority.

See, asking questions and discussing it does produce positive results ;-)

dmp

Slamdunkpro
03-26-2012, 12:17 PM
I think I see it now. My question was "Why require proclamations if they don't 'mean' anything?"
I suspect the bottom line is "because they do". For whatever reason, the AR and BF have decided that a proclamation is a necessary step. I know from speaking to some BF people at the Jack last year that they aren't too thrilled with the whole blanket proclamation thing.

timzcardz
03-26-2012, 12:22 PM
Just so I know what you are saying, how does having a proclamation cause a comp to advance and promote BBQ any more than not having one? Similarly, how does a comp with a proclamation generate any more tax revenue than one without? The draw of the teams? A lot of teams don't buy their fuel local nor stay in a motel nor shop.

dmp

Having a State Proclamation is something that is (or can be by any that don't already) advertised to the public to generate interest. It adds an air of significance. I have heard many times from people that were not familiar with competitions that they didn't realize how big of a thing it was. To some people, it recognizably places it on a higher level of competition than a bunch of guys competing in someone's backyard. Right or wrong, there is a perception.

Would the unkowing public take more notice of "ABC BBQ Competion", or "ABC BBQ Competition, A State Championship"?

Are local and/or state tourism groups more likley to promote competitions as activities if it is a state championship?

It's recognized by the government. It's something else that is available to put outther, to catch people's attention, to advertise and promote BBQ.

As for what a lot of teams do or don't do, A lot of teams do buy gasoline, or buy something local, and all other things being equal, a competition with a state proclamation is more likely to draw competitors.

How many times has it been discussed on here that teams will travel for another chance or a chance at an automatic to The Jack? The first one that comes to mind as an example:
Contest Announcment Rhode Island 2012
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106353&highlight=rhode

dmprantz
03-26-2012, 12:22 PM
I know from speaking to some BF people at the Jack last year that they aren't too thrilled with the whole blanket proclamation thing.

I don't think I would like it too much either if I was them. Still, they are part of the current landscape now. I wonder what they think of the fact that their own state gives very little meaning into the ones they do issue.

dmp

Jorge
03-26-2012, 12:28 PM
I think I see it now. My question was "Why require proclamations if they don't 'mean' anything?" Your response is "Why change it if there is no perceived problems, particularly when changing it could introduce problems?" As a competitor, I guess it's in the hands of the organizers to request a change if there is a problem. I know of one organizer who has called it a problem and tried to make it a change, but perhaps he is in the minority.

See, asking questions and discussing it does produce positive results ;-)

dmp

That pretty much sums it up. Competition BBQ has grown to the point that it's pretty complex, and decisions can and do have a ripple effect.

CivilWarBBQ
03-26-2012, 08:01 PM
Here the problem that I see - the state champ requirement acts a filter for the big shows that can't possibly otherwise know the nature of thousands of events held many miles away. Without some sort of qualification, what's to stop anyone blinded by ambition from structuring a so-called contest purely as a vehicle to get to The Jack, for example? Sanctioning is not required, so if the proclamation isn't either it's simply a matter of making some paperwork and sending it in. Might not even have to hold an actual cookoff, or if you did, just do it for show and either control the teams or the scoring to produce the desired result.

As I've always said, the bigger the money, the bigger the problems with unscrupulous people who are willing to game the system, a la NASCAR.

dmprantz
03-26-2012, 08:20 PM
I understand that, but the "problems" are already starting if you ask me. Did you read the text of the CA blanket proclamation? Specifically for The Jack and the Royal, it reads:

I hearby declare that any serious BBQ event in California that wishes to be considered a State Championship has my blessing for this year and all future years.

Obviously you have to be "a serious BBQ event" but the hole is now back open....

dmp

CivilWarBBQ
03-26-2012, 10:16 PM
If it were my call I would change the requirements to include sanctioning by a third-party organization, and require any such organization to submit documentation of their judging procedures that prove impartial, blind scoring is taking place.

But that's just me, and I don't run The Jack. :tape:

SHBBQ
03-27-2012, 01:08 AM
The one question I've always had about this "state championship" thing is it's use (or overuse) to describe multiple people/events within the same state. One would think that there should/could be only ONE state champion and hence one championship event. I can see multiple city,county or regional qualifiers but state?
I mean seriously, they don't have multiple super bowls in each state nor do they have multiples of any other championship named events in each state that I'm aware of.:crazy:

yet they have multiple world championships. i mean it's just one world right? :grin:

kihrer
03-27-2012, 09:25 AM
yet they have multiple world championships. i mean it's just one world right? :grin:

There must be at least three - otherwise we wouldn't have third-world countries:becky:

I am still not sure why BF and AR don't just decide which contests they want to use as feeders to their competitions. I think this post and others shows how little a proclamation means. If BF and AR like the current contests they have as feeders, then just grandfather those in and make additions/subtractions as they see fit. Wouldn't they be the best arbitrator on which competitions are worthy as a feeder versus some politician that doesn't have a clue?

dmprantz
03-27-2012, 09:44 AM
I think in the past, the SC proclamations have served as a way to notify the AR, BF, and GAB, that a "smaller" competition, regardless of sanctioning body, is fair and honest enough to be considered a qualifier. It allowed them all to have qualifiers without worrying about vetting sanctioning bodies or individual competitions and to include them all. To me, the question is if that's still true in the current landscape. At least one state issues proclamations specifically to indicate competitions as qualifiers, and I don't know how strict the vetting process is there. At least one other state says any "serious" competition has permission to consider itself a SC without any vetting, again, so just to meet this requirement. Has the designation lost its effectiveness in those situations, and should the organizations reconsider the requirements?

Moving the requirement from a SC to a sanctioned event, or adding sanctioned event as an alternative, could certainly be done, but then the orgs would have to evaluate and trust individual sanctioning bodies instead of just trusting every state government, and it could lead to an influx of qualifying teams.

As was pointed out, changing them may have other effects, and I understand that. While I still think the requirement is mostly meaningless and self serving, I think it's up to the organizers and the organizations to decide whether or not to revisit the requirements, what action to take if any, and how that will affect their events. Lots of options out there, but as some have pointed out, they're their shows and their rules!

dmp

Grizmt
03-27-2012, 10:40 AM
There must be at least three - otherwise we wouldn't have third-world countries:becky:

That brings up another funny question, has anyone ever heard of a "second world country" and if so I'd be interested to know what it was.:idea::rofl:

dmprantz
03-27-2012, 10:43 AM
Thank you Dave for posting a link to the KCBS Rep advisories. I just skimmed through them and found an interesting point: KCBS reps are forbidden from repping a "licensed" competition if it has been proclaimed a state championship. Honestly, I don't know if this really changes much, but it means that KCBS does pay attention to SC at some points in time. Makes it hard to rep a "licensed" comp in California!

dmp

dmprantz
03-27-2012, 10:48 AM
has anyone ever heard of a "second world country" and if so I'd be interested to know what it was.

I know your were joking, but technically the NATO and Warsaw Pact countries, along with their allies, were the first and second "worlds" though I don't think there was an order prescribed. "Third world" originally meant countries aligned with neither The US/NATO/Capitalism nor The USSR/Warsaw/Communism. It tends to mean something else now, but coincidence or purpose. I haven't thought about the USSR in a while....

dmp

expatpig
03-27-2012, 10:58 AM
The CSBBQA here in Canada has a qualifier to receive an invitation to the Jack also.