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Q-Dat
03-15-2012, 07:23 AM
Just curious, if anyone knows the breakdown on what this money goes to. I'm sure that some goes into the prize pool, paying the reps, and to charity, but I'm just wondering what else.

I'm not making any accusations, or anything like that, I just would like to know.

Ron_L
03-15-2012, 07:34 AM
It's different at every competition. Maybe some comp organizers can give you some examples.

Scottie
03-15-2012, 08:15 AM
Generator, rental of property, insurance, rental of equipment, tents, tables, chairs, ports potties, water

musicmanryann
03-15-2012, 08:52 AM
Last year my contest had 33 teams, who paid on average $230. This equals about $7,600. We paid out $10,000 and probably another $1,000 on some kick-a$$ trophies and ribbons.

The_Kapn
03-15-2012, 08:55 AM
Add to the above list advertizing and space rental in some cases.

TIM

mobow
03-15-2012, 12:01 PM
Hopefully in my pocket. lol keith

Q-Dat
03-15-2012, 12:27 PM
How does IBCA do it cheaper? Is it simply that the prizes are usually smaller?

Wrench_H
03-15-2012, 12:46 PM
I've only done two comps, but at both of those, the total of all entry fees has been less than the payouts. Most of the other stuff you mention is paid for by sponsorships.

Sledneck
03-15-2012, 01:08 PM
Profit

roksmith
03-15-2012, 01:21 PM
yea wouldn't that be nice. We always pay out more in prize money than we take in from entry fees. Everything else is paid out of sponsorships.

Sledneck
03-15-2012, 01:36 PM
:rolleyes:Im sure Ron Cates , arlie Bragg etc do it "for the love of bbq"

DawgPhan
03-15-2012, 02:35 PM
:rolleyes:Im sure Ron Cates , arlie Bragg etc do it "for the love of bbq"


I know...what a bunch of jerks.

beardjp
03-15-2012, 03:04 PM
Make a profit, I wish. We are lucky to pay our bills by the end of the competition. It is expensive to keep all the teams happy and the public. Our biggest profit is good public relations and satisfied competitors.

CivilWarBBQ
03-15-2012, 03:34 PM
(putting on my organizer hat now)

One of the challenges of having a BBQ contest is that it is quite difficult to make a profit. Many times I'm approached by charities who think they want to hold a contest as a fund-raiser and they end up changing their mind when they learn how much work is involved vs how much money is raised.

At the center of this is the fact that for all intents and purposes, these events are a private party for cooks and judges. Little is offered to the public beyond gawking at the teams unless you add other stuff to the sanctioned contest to get a full-fledge festival. Even so, the most successful events in these parts tend to be run with a "break-even attitude" where the goal is to promote tourism and community involvement rather than make money.

At the events I have organized, 75% or more of the cook team's entry fees go right back into cash prizes and trophies. The rest goes into sanctioning fees, Rep expenses, renting tents, tables & chairs, providing signage, power, water, trash service, ice, porta pots, t-shirts, copying of score sheets, security, advertising and a hundred other line items every contest requires. Of course the funds remaining from entry fees only makes a dent in these expenses, which is why corporate cash sponsorship is critical to the success of most events.

As cooks and judges, we do have out of pocket expenses, but we have to remember that in truth our hobby is being subsidised by the event sponsors and sometimes the public attendees, if a gate fee is charged. If we paid for all the costs ourselves, this expensive hobby would be even more costly!

Sledneck
03-15-2012, 04:17 PM
I know...what a bunch of jerks.

Point taken wrong, I see no problem with what they do. I admire it

Smokin' Hicks
03-15-2012, 08:29 PM
How can the KCBS charge sanctioning fees when all I see about them is things they are NOT doing anymore...not new things they are doing for the teams.....what was the last strong thing the KCBS did FOR THE COMPETITORS since they are the backbone of the comps. ....it might be a lot, I don't know....maybe someone can clear it up for me

brockportbbqfest
03-15-2012, 08:45 PM
The entry fee does not pay for the comp and the expenses. We are lucky to have the event break even from the comp. We subsidize the comp with the public attending our event and the vendor fees. Our group thought hard about not doing a contest as part of our BBQ Festival this year. In the end I convinced them to do it for at least one more year.....

The advantage of using KCBS is that they send reps to run the scoring/judging, they provide a uniform set of rules, and they help promote the event in the bullsheet and on their website. With that said, the fees are not cheap. I think KCBS needs to evaluate this and find out a way to make it more affordable for organizers or organizers will start turing to alternative ways of providing uniformity among contests.

www.brockportbbqfest.com (http://www.brockportbbqfest.com)

Muzzlebrake
03-15-2012, 09:24 PM
How can the KCBS charge sanctioning fees when all I see about them is things they are NOT doing anymore...not new things they are doing for the teams.....what was the last strong thing the KCBS did FOR THE COMPETITORS since they are the backbone of the comps. ....it might be a lot, I don't know....maybe someone can clear it up for me

Sam's Club National BBQ Tour
Kingsford Challenge
Tyson Best Wings On The Planet
Bigger TOY payouts
Ranchers Reserve Beef Cup

These are a few things that come to mind right off the top of my head

BBQchef33
03-15-2012, 09:26 PM
The biggest expenses for The Battle of The Brethren contest.

$1200-1500 in KCBS fees and expenses.
Then the generator and fuel costs
misc rentals. Tables, PA systems, etc.

We try to put at least 95% of entry fees into the prize pool and pay the expenses out of sponsorship money. Usually, I only subtract the KCBS "per team fee" which runs $12-$17 per team from the prize pool. If we were able to payout more than entry fees, we sure would.

nukenight
03-16-2012, 07:28 AM
For one thing, IBCA is cheaper in its sanctioning fees compared to KCBS. The head judge expenses are usually much cheaper too, since IBCA assigns head judges that are local to the contest. And in this instance, I mean local (one of my contests is 4 miles from where I live). The farthest my wife and I go to head judge is usually less than 4 hours from the house. KCBS tries to do this, but for some reason, we seem to get reps from Tennessee and other places for the contests in Louisiana, which increase cost. One thing you notice around here is IBCA contests typically do not top load prize money. In other words, contests like to pay out to the finishers of each meat rather than paying out large sums to the top few overall finishers. Typically around here IBCA contests have smaller prize packages, but they pay out more in each meat category by proportion. A grand champion at most IBCA contests in Louisiana gets a Jack draw, a trophy, and maybe a small cash prize of a few hundred dollars. The KCBS events often pay many thousands of dollars to the grand and reserve champions. I guess this comes down to who the cooker base is and how you attract them. KCBS contests go for the cook who travels a great deal. Here in Louisiana for IBCA contests, we go for getting the local cook (with a few from Texas added for good measure). Some of the difference comes in by how the contest is put together. Often at a KCBS event, you have to bring in power and water for the contest weekend. Some IBCA events are held in RV parks or other facilities that already have power and water in the ground ready to go. Hence you do not need to rent generators and so forth. As the Louisiana Pit Boss for IBCA, my goal is to keep contest fees low to attract as many cooks as possible. We work with promoters to help them find solutions to keep costs down. KCBS does not have an equivalent to a local/regional/state Pit Boss. That might be something KCBS needs to consider.

Rich Parker
03-16-2012, 11:23 AM
How can the KCBS charge sanctioning fees when all I see about them is things they are NOT doing anymore...not new things they are doing for the teams.....what was the last strong thing the KCBS did FOR THE COMPETITORS since they are the backbone of the comps. ....it might be a lot, I don't know....maybe someone can clear it up for me

Your $35 a year not only gets you everything Muzzlebrake mentioned but what about a guarantee that you have a rep on site to make sure the organizer follows all of the rules such as not changing the meats when you get on site or decide an hour before turn in that they are delaying turn ins for several hours or any of the other silly crap that could happen if we didn't have someone there to back us up.

I am an advocate of all teams that compete in a sanctioned event should be members of that sanctioning body. If you don't want to pay your membership dues than go compete somewhere else.

lbmksu
03-16-2012, 11:43 AM
Good info. Thanks. Its hard to remember that we aren't the only ones cash out-of-pocket. However, if you look around at these contests, not even carefully, you can see all that goes into them, and be more appreciative.

BBQchef33
03-16-2012, 12:06 PM
Your $35 a year not only gets you everything Muzzlebrake mentioned but what about a guarantee that you have a rep on site to make sure the organizer follows all of the rules such as not changing the meats when you get on site or decide an hour before turn in that they are delaying turn ins for several hours or any of the other silly crap that could happen if we didn't have someone there to back us up.

I am an advocate of all teams that compete in a sanctioned event should be members of that sanctioning body. If you don't want to pay your membership dues than go compete somewhere else.


i dont think hes talking about the 35$ dues. Sanctioning fees for contests consist of a $350 listing fee, PLUS 12$ per team for BBQ and 5$ per team for Grilling. On top of that, there are rep expenses in the form of mileage, air fares, car rentals, fuel costs, etc for travel, plus hotel expenses and a meal per diem for the reps. I do believe the reps also get paid by KCBS for the event, and im sure thats where some of my $$ goes, which is fair. The meal per diem at times is a sticky point sometimes since many times reps are eating dinners onsite, and the hotels have free FULL buffet breakfasts.

KCBS fees are in excess of $1000 and for that, we get the tangibles of the reps, place mats, score cards and the scoring software, and the intangible is the "KCBS backing", which is what seems to be diminishing, such as guaranteeing the prize pool, AR/JD notifications, etc..

(sidebar, if muzzello is right Im not overly thrilled that some of the 1000+ dollars I am taking out of my contest funds goes to fund Sams club, Kingsford challenge, etc.. if I have to foot my own bill, then they should foot theirs).

Rich Parker
03-16-2012, 12:17 PM
i dont think hes talking about the 35$ dues. Sanctioning fees for contests consist of a $350 listing fee, PLUS 12$ per team for BBQ and 5$ per team for Grilling. On top of that, there are rep expenses in the form of mileage, air fares, car rentals, fuel costs, etc for travel, plus hotel expenses and a meal per diem for the reps. I do believe the reps also get paid by KCBS for the event, and im sure thats where some of my $$ goes, which is fair. The meal per diem at times is a sticky point sometimes since many times reps are eating dinners onsite, and the hotels have free FULL buffet breakfasts.

KCBS fees are in excess of $1000 and for that, we get the tangibles of the reps, place mats, score cards and the scoring software, and the intangible is the "KCBS backing", which is what seems to be diminishing, such as guaranteeing the prize pool, AR/JD notifications, etc..

(sidebar, if muzzello is right Im not overly thrilled that some of the 1000+ dollars I am taking out of my contest funds goes to fund Sams club, Kingsford challenge, etc.. if I have to foot my own bill, then they should foot theirs).

Your right, I read it again and missed that. :loco:

Tarheel
03-16-2012, 06:16 PM
(sidebar, if muzzello is right Im not overly thrilled that some of the 1000+ dollars I am taking out of my contest funds goes to fund Sams club, Kingsford challenge, etc.. if I have to foot my own bill, then they should foot theirs).

I think you will find that with the exception of the Sams Club (which last year got a 20k slush fund from KCBS to pay for incidentals like tee shirts) the sponsors are putting up the money for all of these programs.

As an orginizer also, these contest don't make alot of money without sponsors. The Hogfest puts all plus more of the entry fee back into prize money. Any profit we make off of the event is due to the public coming in. If it rains guess what, the balance sheet looks like the pig got slatghered right there. Most events cant stand to do that more than a couple of years. Hogfest is coming up on its 6th year and we made our first profit last year. And if we dont have a few more teams show up we will end up in the red again because I have based the prize money on a certain number of teams coming in. It is all a gamble all the way around but what the event does for the community as far as economic impact and the food we raise with our entry into the event by the public it is worth it to them.

CivilWarBBQ
03-17-2012, 01:37 AM
How can the KCBS charge sanctioning fees when all I see about them is things they are NOT doing anymore...not new things they are doing for the teams.....what was the last strong thing the KCBS did FOR THE COMPETITORS since they are the backbone of the comps. ....it might be a lot, I don't know....maybe someone can clear it up for me

The huge thing that KCBS brings to the table is a well-run and honestly judged contest. Yes, of course there are occasional problems here and there as you must expect when you are sanctioning jillions of events each year, but by and large cooks trust KCBS to ensure a contest is run fairly.

It's easy to take this for granted until you have the misfortune to cook at a non-KCBS event where the double-blind is not enforced, the judging is not according to a published ruleset or the tabulation of scores is in error or even skewed on purpose. (Yes, I'm sad to say I have seen all of the above personally).

Some of the other sanctioning organizations do a good job too, and some do not, but I believe a serious competitor is foolish to invest their thousand dollars in a non-sanctioned show unless what they want to do is have a party and don't really care who wins. (Which is OK too, as long as you know that going in)

-gf

Sledneck
03-17-2012, 06:18 AM
I think you will find that with the exception of the Sams Club (which last year got a 20k slush fund from KCBS to pay for incidentals like tee shirts) the sponsors are putting up the money for all of these programs.
.
kcbs pays mma to bring them all to the table

BBQchef33
03-17-2012, 06:18 PM
The huge thing that KCBS brings to the table is a well-run and honestly judged contest. Yes, of course there are occasional problems here and there as you must expect when you are sanctioning jillions of events each year, but by and large cooks trust KCBS to ensure a contest is run fairly.



I have to disagree with you here. KCBS sends in reps, a scoring system and yes they oversee the judging. So IMHO, all we get for the $1000+ sanctioning fee is a scoring program, and 2 reps that, to us competitors, gives us a perception/reality that the judging will be fair and unbiased. Even at that, in some cases, it is just that... they will 'oversee' it... because some reps wont even enter the scores, and that data entry is left up to volunteers or someone else supplied by the organizer. So, even the best reps have very little to do with a 'well run' event. Yes, i will admit that the KCBS presence gives us the warm and fuzzy that the judging will be up to standards, the double blind enforced, and the scoring is accurate, but thats not all that makes an event well run.. its simply the culmination of an already well(or poorly) run event.. I admit that i am more comfortable seeing the reps wandering the contest site, talking to teams and being available, but I have also seen contests where reps are MIA until turnin. I can guarantee that an event that had crappy electric, no water, garbage piling up, fights breaking out etc....but had great judging, isnt going to go down in the history books as "well run". :rolleyes:

Give credit where due, Organizers and their staff make well run events, NOT KCBS, and sanctioning does not guarantee a quality contest.

Kcbs reps vary, where some go above and beyond and do get involved with the event outside of the judging tent, and others do bare minimum waiting for the 5 hour crunch time to start.

BUT!!! Starting at meat inspections, the whole gamut(36+ hours) is run by the organizer and crew, and Ive seen events where KCBS steps in in an 'official capacity" from 10 -3 on the last day. (yes, some reps are all over the contest site and doing everything possible, but its not the norm)..the KCBS window is 5 hours at the end of the event when KCBS reps runs the cook and judges meetings, and then waits for turnins to start. Turnins are accepted by volunteers, checked in by the reps, then distributed to judges and the score cards are then given to a volunteer to enter into the kcbs scoring. So how much did KCBS really contribute to the "well run" event? The event thats started 30+ hours before the crunch window, and sometimes the day before KCBS even shows up. ??

Organizers have to have an area set up for judging, electric for the computers, seating, an area for data entry, and of course all the stuff required by dozens of judges BEFORE KCBS even shows up. Then going beyond the judging tent, who sets up the ice, electric, water, sanitation, team dinners, breakfasts, goody bags, security, ammeneties, etc.. KCBS doesnt make sure your site is lit up at night, or your water is running, your equipment is safe, and that we, the competitors, are comfortable and taken care of. Hell, even the prize pool guarantee is gone that used to come with sanctioning. Sanctioning, in an essence gives us very little beyond a warm and fuzzy feeling that someone neutral is running the judging and scoring.. This same comfort level can be achieved by an organizer who has integrity and knows how to run a contest, including the expectations of the teams and judges.


im not trying to bash KCBS here..thats not the intention, and our reps do great jobs...., I guess my point is, to credit KCBS for a well run event is short changing all the organizers out there who bust there arses for us. KCBS and its sanctioning has MINIMAL to with the event quality. Its the integrity and goals of the organizers that we depend on to make and event succeed or fail.. not KCBS.

brockportbbqfest
03-18-2012, 07:03 PM
BBQChef33 is absolutely correct. A contest would be a disaster without a good organizer and volunteers. I am fortunate that Ken and Kathie Dakhi our Reps, really step in and do a great job and go above and beyond, but it takes a lot to get to the point where Ken and Kathie have a setup where they can be successful at the event.

In regards to the Kingsford, Sams, Etc. These events SHOULD be paying for themselves from sponsorships. I am still puzzled why they pay MMA big dollars to run some of these events. I am sure MMA isn't cheap, then they subcontract out to guys like Arlie Bragg and Wayne Lohman. (I have a huge issue with guys on the board indirectly or directly for that matter getting paid to run an event that is a KCBS event. In my mind this is a HUGE conflict of interest.) They do a nice job with the events and I certainly am not trying to throw stones, but If I was on the board I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with this arrangement. I also question why KCBS didn't use existing contest for the Sam's Club events and such. By KCBS adding events they are actually competing with our local events. In my opinion NOT COOL! Just my 2 cents...

Rob

Plowboy
03-18-2012, 08:32 PM
I have to disagree with you here. KCBS sends in reps, a scoring system and yes they oversee the judging. So IMHO, all we get for the $1000+ sanctioning fee is a scoring program, and 2 reps that, to us competitors, gives us a perception/reality that the judging will be fair and unbiased. Even at that, in some cases, it is just that... they will 'oversee' it... because some reps wont even enter the scores, and that data entry is left up to volunteers or someone else supplied by the organizer. So, even the best reps have very little to do with a 'well run' event. Yes, i will admit that the KCBS presence gives us the warm and fuzzy that the judging will be up to standards, the double blind enforced, and the scoring is accurate, but thats not all that makes an event well run.. its simply the culmination of an already well(or poorly) run event.. I admit that i am more comfortable seeing the reps wandering the contest site, talking to teams and being available, but I have also seen contests where reps are MIA until turnin. I can guarantee that an event that had crappy electric, no water, garbage piling up, fights breaking out etc....but had great judging, isnt going to go down in the history books as "well run". :rolleyes:

Give credit where due, Organizers and their staff make well run events, NOT KCBS, and sanctioning does not guarantee a quality contest.

Kcbs reps vary, where some go above and beyond and do get involved with the event outside of the judging tent, and others do bare minimum waiting for the 5 hour crunch time to start.

BUT!!! Starting at meat inspections, the whole gamut(36+ hours) is run by the organizer and crew, and Ive seen events where KCBS steps in in an 'official capacity" from 10 -3 on the last day. (yes, some reps are all over the contest site and doing everything possible, but its not the norm)..the KCBS window is 5 hours at the end of the event when KCBS reps runs the cook and judges meetings, and then waits for turnins to start. Turnins are accepted by volunteers, checked in by the reps, then distributed to judges and the score cards are then given to a volunteer to enter into the kcbs scoring. So how much did KCBS really contribute to the "well run" event? The event thats started 30+ hours before the crunch window, and sometimes the day before KCBS even shows up. ??

Organizers have to have an area set up for judging, electric for the computers, seating, an area for data entry, and of course all the stuff required by dozens of judges BEFORE KCBS even shows up. Then going beyond the judging tent, who sets up the ice, electric, water, sanitation, team dinners, breakfasts, goody bags, security, ammeneties, etc.. KCBS doesnt make sure your site is lit up at night, or your water is running, your equipment is safe, and that we, the competitors, are comfortable and taken care of. Hell, even the prize pool guarantee is gone that used to come with sanctioning. Sanctioning, in an essence gives us very little beyond a warm and fuzzy feeling that someone neutral is running the judging and scoring.. This same comfort level can be achieved by an organizer who has integrity and knows how to run a contest, including the expectations of the teams and judges.


im not trying to bash KCBS here..thats not the intention, and our reps do great jobs...., I guess my point is, to credit KCBS for a well run event is short changing all the organizers out there who bust there arses for us. KCBS and its sanctioning has MINIMAL to with the event quality. Its the integrity and goals of the organizers that we depend on to make and event succeed or fail.. not KCBS.

I agree with 98% of this. The organizer and volunteers are what makes a contest successful. But KCBS brings the format. Without KCBS and the cooks that choose to cook their contests, you'd have every contest trying to figure it out for themselves. Teams wouldn't know what they were walking into contest to contest. Though I agree with the sentiment that KCBS is not the lions share of what makes a successful contest, I think it is shorting them on the credit they deserve by saying all you get is software and 2 reps. Physically, that's true. However, you get training for reps, training for judges, TOY races that bring cooks out to cook more contests, and you get a contest format. Not the physical planning/execution. Not the marketing and advertising. This is true.

We are part of Boy Scouts of America. I serve in multiple leadership positions in the Cub Scout Pack my boys belong in. You can trust that the national BSA organization isn't sitting in our den meetings, pack meetings, or committee meetings. They aren't providing funds for us. They aren't providing volunteers for us. But, for our dues which are reasonable, we get a program to follow. We get tradition. We get a national and international community. Maybe not all parallels with KCBS, but the point is that, like a contest, there's more work happening at the local levels than national to support local scouting, yet we couldn't do it easily and consistently without the BSA. Same as at a contest.

Plowboy
03-18-2012, 08:51 PM
BBQChef33 is absolutely correct. A contest would be a disaster without a good organizer and volunteers. I am fortunate that Ken and Kathie Dakhi our Reps, really step in and do a great job and go above and beyond, but it takes a lot to get to the point where Ken and Kathie have a setup where they can be successful at the event.

In regards to the Kingsford, Sams, Etc. These events SHOULD be paying for themselves from sponsorships. I am still puzzled why they pay MMA big dollars to run some of these events. I am sure MMA isn't cheap, then they subcontract out to guys like Arlie Bragg and Wayne Lohman. (I have a huge issue with guys on the board indirectly or directly for that matter getting paid to run an event that is a KCBS event. In my mind this is a HUGE conflict of interest.) They do a nice job with the events and I certainly am not trying to throw stones, but If I was on the board I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with this arrangement. I also question why KCBS didn't use existing contest for the Sam's Club events and such. By KCBS adding events they are actually competing with our local events. In my opinion NOT COOL! Just my 2 cents...

Rob

I guess I'm being the devil's advocate tonight. Not trying to pick any fights or tell anyone their opinions are wrong. Just trying to bring another side. I certainly don't have all the right answers.

Board members running events for Sam's is a huge target for criticism, no one can deny that. But, I can see where someone like Alrie (and potentially others) is a good choice. Alrie runs a lot of contests. And unlike a lot of organizers, he's not doing it within reach of where he lives. He's executing events in multiple parts of the country and not just the area where he lives. Ron Cates is another example. These guys make obvious choices for Sam's events, or at least the first cut or two.

Now, just because Arlie is on the board doesn't make him less qualified. I see where folks are trying to make a big deal about this. As stated, I can see where this can look fishy. However, I don't think anyone was lining their pockets on this one. I mean, for a guy like Alrie who has a catering business, the money is equivalent to a decent catering job. If someone was going to abuse their power and risk their reputation, would it be over a single paycheck for organizing a Sam's Club event? A little weak for a conspiracy theory, IMHO. The bottom line was that they were going to pay SOMEONE to run the Sam's events. I can't say that they picked a lot of unqualified or even lesser qualified people. Your mileage may vary on that opinion.

Now if someone was fleecing the organization over years and years by abusing their power, then we've got a real issue. I just don't see a bunch of fat cats after the Sam's deal. Maybe I'm just blind.

Muzzlebrake
03-18-2012, 09:37 PM
KCBS fees are in excess of $1000 and for that, we get the tangibles of the reps, place mats, score cards and the scoring software, and the intangible is the "KCBS backing", which is what seems to be diminishing, such as guaranteeing the prize pool, AR/JD notifications, etc..

(sidebar, if muzzello is right Im not overly thrilled that some of the 1000+ dollars I am taking out of my contest funds goes to fund Sams club, Kingsford challenge, etc.. if I have to foot my own bill, then they should foot theirs).

I agree with you that it takes much more than an organizer to have a well run contest. Without a good organizer and staff, I don't care who sanctions it, it won't be worth a chit.

I could be wrong but I think the majority of the programs I mentioned not only pay for themselves, by I was under the impression they also generated revenue for KCBS. Like I said, I could be wrong, I'm not sure where I heard that, maybe someone in the know can chime in.

Can you please correctly ( or at least consistently) spell my misspelled name?:becky::becky:

The huge thing that KCBS brings to the table is a well-run and honestly judged contest. Yes, of course there are occasional problems here and there as you must expect when you are sanctioning jillions of events each year, but by and large cooks trust KCBS to ensure a contest is run fairly.

It's easy to take this for granted until you have the misfortune to cook at a non-KCBS event where the double-blind is not enforced, the judging is not according to a published ruleset or the tabulation of scores is in error or even skewed on purpose. (Yes, I'm sad to say I have seen all of the above personally).

Some of the other sanctioning organizations do a good job too, and some do not, but I believe a serious competitor is foolish to invest their thousand dollars in a non-sanctioned show unless what they want to do is have a party and don't really care who wins. (Which is OK too, as long as you know that going in)

-gf

I have heard this from plenty of other cooks. While many people seem to enjoy bashing KCBS, I really believe that they bring a level of integrity that a team can count on. I understand there are others who also do this and I don't mean to belittle their efforts at all. I'm just much more familiar with KCBS

kcbs pays mma to bring them all to the table

That's kind of why you hire a marketing and PR firm isn't it?

SHBBQ
03-18-2012, 10:38 PM
Just curious, if anyone knows the breakdown on what this money goes to. I'm sure that some goes into the prize pool, paying the reps, and to charity, but I'm just wondering what else.

I'm not making any accusations, or anything like that, I just would like to know.

I love how a simple question always turns into a giant political debate.

BBQchef33
03-18-2012, 11:01 PM
I agree with you that it takes much more than an organizer to have a well run contest. Without a good organizer and staff, I don't care who sanctions it, it won't be worth a chit.

I could be wrong but I think the majority of the programs I mentioned not only pay for themselves, by I was under the impression they also generated revenue for KCBS. Like I said, I could be wrong, I'm not sure where I heard that, maybe someone in the know can chime in.

Can you please correctly ( or at least consistently) spell my misspelled name?:becky::becky:


I have heard this from plenty of other cooks. While many people seem to enjoy bashing KCBS, I really believe that they bring a level of integrity that a team can count on. I understand there are others who also do this and I don't mean to belittle their efforts at all. I'm just much more familiar with KCBS

That's kind of why you hire a marketing and PR firm isn't it?


You mean shawn keaver muzzello?. :becky::bow:

Agree except for the symantecs.. i think we are saying the same thing..

just imo its not KCBS that brings the integrity, its the organizer.. like plowboy said, in a KCBS event, they bring the format, but the execution is up to event staff and the reps are the insurance policy. :thumb:

CivilWarBBQ
03-19-2012, 02:11 AM
I have to disagree with you here. ...So, even the best reps have very little to do with a 'well run' event. ...

Give credit where due, Organizers and their staff make well run events, NOT KCBS, and sanctioning does not guarantee a quality contest.

Kcbs reps vary, where some go above and beyond and do get involved with the event outside of the judging tent, and others do bare minimum waiting for the 5 hour crunch time to start.


Interesting response. As an organizer myself, I'd love to accept full credit for the success of the shows I've run. However, I've been to contests where the organizer was AWOL, volunteers were virtually non-existent, and yet we as cooks still enjoyed a well-run and fair contest thanks to the Reps. (I'm referring to the actual nuts and bolts of the contest portion itself here, not the various support activities such as power, parking, trash pickup etc.) Note that my orginal statement was that KCBS ensured a well-run contest, not necessarily a quality event as a whole. This is an important distinction.

Where I do think we agree is that from your testimony and that of others around the country, it seems clear that there is a very wide range in the quality of available Reps. Here in my Region (Northern Georgia, Alabama and Tennesee) we have been blessed with some excellent KCBS Reps. It is common for the Reps to get involved with the organizers long before the contest date, especially with new events.

The idea of Reps only appearing at an event for five hours would be shocking down here, and believe me, any Rep who pulled such shenanigans would create an uproar and never be invited back. I've also heard tales of such horrors as the public wandering through judging tents out West during judging and boxes being stacked six high in the Midwest. I simply can't understand why anyone allows such things!

Perhaps we are just spoiled down South, because on the odd occassion when another organizer tells me they are replacing their Reps around these parts the reason is usually very mild and either entails a personality conflict or cost of expenses due to travel distance. (This it the one bone I have to pick with KCBS - we have 20 contests in GA and not a single Rep who lives in the state. Stupid!)

Anyway, to bring this rambling post to a conclusion, let me pose this thought: Much has been discussed about finding ways to either reeducate or cull "bad" judges from the ranks, but what about poorly performing Reps? I am suggesting the KCBS policy of keeping the number of Reps low is outdated, stymies growth and is just plain not good for anyone but the Reps themselves. If we had three times as many choices, the problem people would be replaced by better Reps through natural selection.

Grizmt
03-19-2012, 08:45 AM
I hope I can enter the perspective of someone who has watched many events as a judge,vendor and volunteer.
I've been at KCBS/IBCA/PNWBA/BCS contests all over the western states in one capacity or another and have noticed a couple of things, the first being I don't believe I've ever run into a lazy or not fully involved rep. They were onsite and active usually during the middle to end of setup but definitely around at load in and stay until well after awards. Granted I've only seen a pool of about 8-10 KCBS reps, all of 'em have done the job the best they could and all went above what was required.

As was stated above, it isn't any of the sanctioning bodies that make the event, it's the people who own it (promoters/organizers or whatever you want to call 'em) that set the tone and make or break the event. If the organizers do a poor job nobody's happy and the events won't survive no matter what KCBS does.

KCBS doesn't require that there are bathrooms,good power,water or ice onsite nor do they make sure the $$$ get paid to the teams as promised nor do they have minimum standards for locations or conditions. They don't have minimum standards for keeping the food safe for the judges or a comfortable place for the judging to take place. All of the above is completely up to the event.
Basically all these sanctioning bodies provide is structure that is intended to keep the events on the level and give the teams some assurances that the results are fair.
I mean let's be honest here, teams don't really care if anyone/anything shows up other than the reps,teams,judges and the prize fund right?
I'm not trying to be negative or anything, just observing that it seems (to me) all that matters to the competitors at any given event is that as long as the 4 things listed above are present and everyone who wins gets paid it's all good. Is this a fair observation?

carlyle
03-19-2012, 09:24 AM
Back to the original question without getting into the interesting political discussion.

Our contest has not had entry fees equal the purse pay out in our first four years.

The difference comes out of our operating income.

We have made a profit each year because of our generous sponsors, our world class Blues Festival, and our percentage of food and beverage sales.

We would be able to increase our donation to our charity, Special Olympics, if there were entry fees equal to the purse so there did not need to be a subsidy.

On the flip side, when we get more in entry fees than we need for the purse, I would lobby to increase the purse payout.

BBQchef33
03-19-2012, 10:09 PM
I mean let's be honest here, teams don't really care if anyone/anything shows up other than the reps,teams,judges and the prize fund right?
I'm not trying to be negative or anything, just observing that it seems (to me) all that matters to the competitors at any given event is that as long as the 4 things listed above are present and everyone who wins gets paid it's all good. Is this a fair observation?

pretty much true.. for the most part the ultimate bottom line is the judging and scores.... but have you ever read the backlash afterwards regarding an event where the power was out?, or no water available, or ice.. or prize pool diminshed... or the johns were not cleaned out? those are the events that die off because the teams wont return. The scoring may have been dead on, and the reps did a great job, but those are not the things that give contests longevity. We're lucky that the reps we have had at our contests are seasoned veterans and ARE there starting at checkin... but that wasnt the case in other contests ive attended....AWOL reps, no water, even unbearable heat, and the organizer is the one who took it on the chin, and the contests died off. Civilwarbbq points out a good point, theres a line between a 'contest' and an 'event'.. unfortunately, in most cases, no matter how flawless the contest goes, if the event dies the contest dies with it.