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musicmanryann
03-14-2012, 08:58 AM
I Just received this email. See the attachments as well. Interesting new procedures for ensuring qualification for the invitational.

"Hello everyone,

The American Royal World Series of Barbecue® is only 209 days away and we are asking for your assistance in gathering the information for those teams who have qualified and will qualify for our Invitational Contest!

In order to streamline the process and ensure all information is received in an efficient and timely manner, we have put a new process in place for gathering the information required.

Please forward the attached documents to your Contest Organizers.

These documents include:
· Contest Organizer Letter

· 2012 Organizer & Invitational Team Information Sheets
· Invitational Contest FAQ

We understand that gathering together the information for all of your sanctioned contests and the Grand Champion team information for those contests can be time consuming. We are moving the responsibility to the Contest Organizers. It will be the responsibility of each Contest Organizer AND their respective Grand Champion team to return all documents.

It is the decision of each individual association whether they choose to email, mail or fax these documents to their contest organizers.

We are currently updating our website www.AmericanRoyal.com, but once this has been completed these forms will be available online along with the updated Qualifying Contest Criteria and Invitational Contest FAQ.

Given this new process we expect there will be questions, so please don’t hesitate to contact me to clarify the process and expectations.

Thank you in advance for your assistance in distributing this information. It is important for the American Royal Association to include all teams that qualify for the Invitational Contest. Your assistance will help facilitate gathering the information so that your teams will be properly recognized for their outstanding accomplishment of being a Grand Champion.

Best,
Melissa

Melissa Pate
BBQ Event Manager"

61924

61925

musicmanryann
03-14-2012, 11:19 AM
Since it is a long read, I will paraphrase how I understand this new process.

For every contest, the organizer and contest winner must submit a signed information form directly to the American Royal verifying compliance with the qualification criteria. A copy of the team list and governor's proclamation must also be submitted. The completed paperwork and supplemental materials must be submitted no longer than seven (7) days after the contest. If paperwork is not submitted on time you will not receive an invitation for that contest.

Smoke Ring
03-14-2012, 11:36 AM
What about contests from last year that qualify? It's a little hard to meet that 7 day rule at this point.

Smoke Ring
03-14-2012, 11:41 AM
By the way, this is yet another member service that KCBS no longer provides, leaving it up to the invitationals like American Royal and Jack Daniel's to determine who qualified in KCBS events. Who does KCBS serve these days? It doesn't seem to be the members.

Rich Parker
03-14-2012, 11:44 AM
I don't think 7 days is enough especially if a team has to be held responsible with the organizer.

musicmanryann
03-14-2012, 11:46 AM
What about contests from last year that qualify? It's a little hard to meet that 7 day rule at this point.

I have emailed Melissa regarding this very question as my contest is one of those. I am awaiting a response and will post as soon as I know.

Diva
03-14-2012, 11:50 AM
It's bullcrap that KCBS stopped keeping track of the grand champion of their sanctioned contests. It doesn't take long to update an excel spreadsheet every week. I know, I used to do it. It's the LEAST they could do for the MEMBERS of KCBS.

Each sanctioning body takes care of their own...that's the way it should be. That's why sanctioning bodies have MEMBERS who pay DUES. Instead of having someone go in the office on the weekend to manually update the TOY calculations, why don't they let the computer do that and they can spend their time on an "added benefit" for the members, like, turning in Grand Champions' names to the Invitationals. This really pisses me off.

What about the teams that aren't in "the know", that aren't aware of this forum, that aren't aware of this procedural change??? They're screwed.

Lemme tell you how I really feel.....

Scottie
03-14-2012, 11:59 AM
It's bullcrap that KCBS stopped keeping track of the grand champion of their sanctioned contests. It doesn't take long to update an excel spreadsheet every week. I know, I used to do it. It's the LEAST they could do for the MEMBERS of KCBS.

Each sanctioning body takes care of their own...that's the way it should be. That's why sanctioning bodies have MEMBERS who pay DUES. Instead of having someone go in the office on the weekend to manually update the TOY calculations, why don't they let the computer do that and they can spend their time on an "added benefit" for the members, like, turning in Grand Champions' names to the Invitationals. This really pisses me off.

What about the teams that aren't in "the know", that aren't aware of this forum, that aren't aware of this procedural change??? They're screwed.

Lemme tell you how I really feel.....

I know a couple of folks on the BOD. Ill relay your message...:becky:

AZScott
03-14-2012, 12:04 PM
Awesome. Our first GC happened 12 days ago.

Diva
03-14-2012, 12:11 PM
I know a couple of folks on the BOD. Ill relay your message...:becky:

Yeah, me too and they've already heard from me. No need to relay anything to anybody on my account.

musicmanryann
03-14-2012, 12:24 PM
I asked for some clarification on a few things. I have noted her responses in RED. Make sure you read this, especially if you think you are already qualified for the 2012 invite.

Good morning Melissa,

I received your email message this morning regarding new procedures for qualifying for the American Royal Invitational and I have a couple of questions.

Perhaps I missed it in the message, but I am not clear if this new procedure is to begin immediately and/or is retroactive to contests that have occurred previous to today. The contest I organized was on Labor Day weekend last year and thus is a potential qualifier for the 2012 Invitational. Given the new rules do I need to get in an Informational Sheet to you, and have the winner do the same? If so, do I need to do that within 7 days of today? Yes, I realize everyone has just now received this information, and the 7-day window for past contests has passed, therefore please have both the Organizer and Invitational team sheets completed and returned to me within 7 days from receipt of documents.

Further, the required documents include a copy of the Governor’s Proclamation. As is the case with several states, the State of Iowa has had, in my understanding, a perpetual blanket proclamation on all KCBS sanctioned events for years. Therefore, I, as well as other contests in Iowa do not have a paper copy of a proclamation. Please advise on how we should proceed in this case. I am sure that one could find a copy of the original proclamation, and perhaps The American Royal and/or KCBS already has this on file. I am aware that Iowa has a blanket proclamation, so for this question, circle “Yes” and just note blanket in the margin.

I appreciate the time and attention to these questions as we transition to this new process. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Ryan Newstrom
Contest Organizer
All American BBQ Bash in Ames, Iowa

Lakeside Smoker
03-14-2012, 12:46 PM
This is crazy.
So, if the organizer sits on paperwork, or does not get back to me in time, I lose?

-Mike

musicmanryann
03-14-2012, 12:52 PM
This is crazy.
So, if the organizer sits on paperwork, or does not get back to me in time, I lose?

-Mike

My plan is to have a blank form and addressed envelope in my truck at all times and if we are lucky enough to win a contest not leave until I have signed forms and a sealed envelope from my contest organizer. Hopefully this wont jinx us--I don't even like filling out the tax forms for a contest until I know we have won something. :roll:

Smoke Ring
03-14-2012, 12:57 PM
It's bullcrap that KCBS stopped keeping track of the grand champion of their sanctioned contests. It doesn't take long to update an excel spreadsheet every week. I know, I used to do it. It's the LEAST they could do for the MEMBERS of KCBS.

They don't even have to do that. It is tracked in the contest database the office uses to manage contests and the application generates an organizer report with a list of all the contests, their qualifying status, and the GC. All they have to do is push a button.

Podge
03-14-2012, 12:59 PM
Things like this is what reminds me why I didn't renew my membership

bover
03-14-2012, 01:02 PM
Was this change instigated by KCBS or by the AR BBQ Event itself? The letter posted by Ryan at the beginning of this thread makes it sound like it was an AR decision...

Diva
03-14-2012, 01:05 PM
By the way, this is yet another member service that KCBS no longer provides, leaving it up to the invitationals like American Royal and Jack Daniel's to determine who qualified in KCBS events. Who does KCBS serve these days? It doesn't seem to be the members.

That letter refers to the American Royal, only, as I understand it. I'm sure SOMEONE will find it in their hearts to get a list together for the Jack. I mean, who wants to house, feed and liquor up people who won't even make a list for 'em????

:shock:

Diva
03-14-2012, 01:32 PM
Was this change instigated by KCBS or by the AR BBQ Event itself? The letter posted by Ryan at the beginning of this thread makes it sound like it was an AR decision...

KCBS. A motion was brought forth to end tracking and passed by the Board. I'm going to look it up, see who made the motion and how each individual voted.

Found it:
April 13, 2011 BOD AGENDA
Arlie Bragg: I make a motion that we as an association stop keeping tabs for the Am. Royal and Jack Daniels in regards to Proclamations. I have spoke with the office and they claim it takes a lot of their time. They report last year all but a handful of contest were unable to get them however this year that will not be the case. California has over 5 contests that the new Governor will not even consider this year making the current system not fair and with the Sams Club also not getting them it has made a lot of teams upset. If the two parties want to continue their present requirements then they need to keep up with it their self’s. I believe we can use the office employee’s time more useful in other areas as we continue to grow. I also request that we speak to both parties and ask them to just consider the following: 15 Teams 1st year, 25 teams 2nd year, No Proclamations


April 13, 2011 BOD Minutes

Arlie Bragg: Made a motion discontinue having the KCBS office staff monitor lists for invitational contests in regards to Proclamations. Seconded by Randy Bigler, the motion passed unanimously.

UNANIMOUSLY....well, isn't that special.

SHBBQ
03-14-2012, 01:35 PM
I don't know about you, but the Sanctioning Body's Rep for each contest should already have this info on file from the organizer. the email mentions that it is up to each association to forward documents to the organizers. basically it seems like this is a request by AR to have KCBS and all other organizations send this out with the normal documents that organizers fill out. this should be as simple as having something prepared in advance and just writing in a winners name and either handing it to you with your check for winning grand champion. In that case you are responsible for mailing it. They can also have the contest rep mail it, or better yet email it to AR. all depends on if the sanctioning bodies want to take on the responsibility and liability of getting the info in within the 7 day time requirement.

I think before we comment with hating on people and organizations and jumping to conclusions, we should follow up with our respective organizations as to how they will handle it. it is my opinion that all this info should be included in the cooks packets each team receives at a contest.

Also may you all have the opportunity to flirt with this deadline at least once next year!!!!!!!

SHBBQ
03-14-2012, 01:36 PM
KCBS. A motion was brought forth to end tracking and passed by the Board. I'm going to look it up, see who made the motion and how each individual voted.

anxiously awaiting this info.

bignburlyman
03-14-2012, 02:01 PM
This is somewhat odd to me, just last week I received through the Kansas Winter Q email we use a info request from Melissa for the contact info on our grand champion. No mention of any additional paperwork was given, just a thank you for providing the contact info. Hmmmm.

Kit R
03-14-2012, 02:50 PM
KCBS. A motion was brought forth to end tracking and passed by the Board. I'm going to look it up, see who made the motion and how each individual voted.

Found it:
April 13, 2011 BOD AGENDA
Arlie Bragg: I make a motion that we as an association stop keeping tabs for the Am. Royal and Jack Daniels in regards to Proclamations. I have spoke with the office and they claim it takes a lot of their time. They report last year all but a handful of contest were unable to get them however this year that will not be the case. California has over 5 contests that the new Governor will not even consider this year making the current system not fair and with the Sams Club also not getting them it has made a lot of teams upset. If the two parties want to continue their present requirements then they need to keep up with it their self’s. I believe we can use the office employee’s time more useful in other areas as we continue to grow. I also request that we speak to both parties and ask them to just consider the following: 15 Teams 1st year, 25 teams 2nd year, No Proclamations


April 13, 2011 BOD Minutes

Arlie Bragg: Made a motion discontinue having the KCBS office staff monitor lists for invitational contests in regards to Proclamations. Seconded by Randy Bigler, the motion passed unanimously.

UNANIMOUSLY....well, isn't that special.

And now a mystery that has bothered me for eight months is solved. We got out first GC on July 30, 2011 and the reps said "well I guess we'll see you at the Royal now"? I won't go into the reason why we couldn't go (but it had to do with a conflict with a Sam's Club regional final) so I never thought to insure that the proper info was made available to the AR organizers. What DID matter though was getting our name in the Jack draw because we had no conflict. OK, we had no idea we'd even have a shot at the draw when 2011 began, but still.....


We waited for a letter from Jack Daniel's for a good long time, and when none came I finally looked up Judt Heslar's number and called. She was super nice and told me she had no info on our GC. Luckily I had time to track down a copy of the Governor's Proclamation from the organizers and get some kind of verification of our GC from KCBS and fax the whole package to Judy, who input it that very day. And good thing because we won the Virginia draw. If I had sat back and let the system handle it, we'd never have made it to the Jack. And THAT would've torqued me off. A lot.

HoDeDo
03-14-2012, 02:52 PM
My plan is to have a blank form and addressed envelope in my truck at all times and if we are lucky enough to win a contest not leave until I have signed forms and a sealed envelope from my contest organizer. Hopefully this wont jinx us--I don't even like filling out the tax forms for a contest until I know we have won something. :roll:

Exactly what my facebook post was about... it is on ME to get it done. So I will have the forms ready to roll, just in case.

Sticks-n-chicks
03-14-2012, 03:15 PM
So where do we get the form? Do I need to send this to the Desoto contest so the organizer would send to melisa? Do you have Melisa's contact information?

musicmanryann
03-14-2012, 03:18 PM
So where do we get the form? Do I need to send this to the Desoto contest so the organizer would send to melisa? Do you have Melisa's contact information?

The form is at the bottom of my original post. :thumb:

Sticks-n-chicks
03-14-2012, 03:25 PM
thx:shocked:

musicmanryann
03-14-2012, 03:32 PM
I received some clarification that while people that have already won in the qualification period need to get the paperwork in asap, they will not lose their spot if they do not send it in the next week. :-D

TooSaucedToPork
03-14-2012, 03:45 PM
I'm sure glad that the MBN keeps great track of GC's and hand downs...

What in the heck is KCBS thinking???

stan
03-14-2012, 03:45 PM
I have asked the American Royal if they will accept the documentation needed from CompBBQ for the contests that utilize our service! This is something that we could do as a value added for the organizers and winning team. Even if we have to pull and provide it to the Organizer and Team to sign and send if they will not accept it from us!

kcpellethead
03-14-2012, 04:14 PM
Hey folks, don't over think this. KCBS used to track the teams that qualify for the AR Invitational and the Jack, but made a conscious decision to stop. Short of monitoring the forums and Bullsheet, which still wouldn't provide all the necessary info, the American Royal has created a system to gather the appropriate information to send invitations to their event. The AR needs to the contest organizer to verify that, in fact, the event meets the qualifying criteria and provide the info for the GC of their event. With that info the GC will be contacted to be made award that they qualify for the invitational.

The seven day guideline was created so that there was a tangible deadline in place, a firm hand in the middle of the contest organizer's back, if you will, pushing them not to procrastinate getting this info to the AR so in turn the AR could contact that GC. Simple as that. If you've qualified for the ARI, you will be invited to participate.

I am not an official representative of the American Royal. The view points and opinions stated are my own and my not accurately reflect the position of the American Royal.

Butcher BBQ
03-14-2012, 05:25 PM
Hey folks, don't over think this. KCBS used to track the teams that qualify for the AR Invitational and the Jack, but made a conscious decision to stop. Short of monitoring the forums and Bullsheet, which still wouldn't provide all the necessary info, the American Royal has created a system to gather the appropriate information to send invitations to their event. The AR needs to the contest organizer to verify that, in fact, the event meets the qualifying criteria and provide the info for the GC of their event. With that info the GC will be contacted to be made award that they qualify for the invitational.

The seven day guideline was created so that there was a tangible deadline in place, a firm hand in the middle of the contest organizer's back, if you will, pushing them not to procrastinate getting this info to the AR so in turn the AR could contact that GC. Simple as that. If you've qualified for the ARI, you will be invited to participate.

I am not an official representative of the American Royal. The view points and opinions stated are my own and my not accurately reflect the position of the American Royal.

Rod, do you know what will happen with the GC's that we carried over from last year?

kcpellethead
03-14-2012, 06:23 PM
Rod, do you know what will happen with the GC's that we carried over from last year?

Yes, they are being tracked and will be included in the ARI. Everybody who won a qualifying event on or after August 1, 2011 will be invited, just like in the past.

Coz
03-14-2012, 06:32 PM
However it has worked in the past we have qualified the last 4 years and the first 3 we had to call the Jack and the Royal ourselves .Then last year they sent the stuff to our partner who has never been listed on any of the entry forms .So now I have an email to the organiser wha ran the Labor Day weekend contest we won.What are the odds he still has a copy of the proclamation.All this even tho some one from the Royal called shortly after the contest to verify our info.

Coz
03-14-2012, 06:33 PM
Guess I dint see Rods last post before I posted.

Rich Parker
03-14-2012, 06:40 PM
What is the history behind needing a governor to give a proclamation that a comp is a state qualifier?

Being relatively new it seems really silly and some organizers have to put in a lot of effort and time to get.

Plowboy
03-14-2012, 06:54 PM
Who did this email go to? I never got one.

If a team doesn't know the rule and the organizer is a dead beat... what happens?

musicmanryann
03-14-2012, 06:58 PM
It went out to organizers, Todd. And that is the reason I posted it on here and Facebook, as I thought it was information also important to competitors. With the information I had at the time it seemed things were time-sensitive as well.

The Giggler
03-14-2012, 07:02 PM
What is the history behind needing a governor to give a proclamation that a comp is a state qualifier?

Being relatively new it seems really silly and some organizers have to put in a lot of effort and time to get.

Yes, the Gov's Proc granted State Championship status important to the invitationals, with 15 teams the first year, and 25 teams thereafter.

The good news is once you have it, you have it. :)

Frank Sacco
03-14-2012, 07:11 PM
A week before the AR deadline last year I scrambled to acquire all supporting documentation from a 2010 GC so we could cook the invitation. I dug up e-mails from motoeric (organizer) to the AR rep that were sent a week after the comp. Kiley Stinson claimed the AR had no record of the e-mail. Creating a chit sorm and stress on my end.
My advice to all, call the AR office and get a coordinator's e-mail. Scan all documents and e-mail them with a read receipt. Retain all e-mails and paperwork. Confirm your qualification before the entry deadline.

Rich Parker
03-14-2012, 07:15 PM
Yes, the Gov's Proc granted State Championship status important to the invitationals, with 15 teams the first year, and 25 teams thereafter.

The good news is once you have it, you have it. :)

Interesting I didn't know it was a one time deal.

What does the proclamation do for the AR and Jack folks? I can understand the number of team limit but don't understand what the proclamation is doing for them.

Smoke'n Ice
03-14-2012, 07:34 PM
Just saying, in todays environment, we have all of the information available, it just has to be entered into a database and forwarded to the AR and Jack. I was under the mistaken impression that we were creating a new and improved data base which the reps populated at the conclusion of a contest. EXACTLY where does that involve the office?

Guys, somebody better get their chit straight and really, really think about what the role of KCBS is. If it's to make Sam's happy, then so be it. I WANT my money back from the renewal. Sams can cover the expenses!!!!

dmprantz
03-14-2012, 07:44 PM
I can't search right now but I had a thread about state proclamations not too long ago. My take always were that they are not perpetual and mean absolutely nothing to any one except the ar and bf. Their only purpose appears to be acting as a hurdle to organizers in order to attract teams.

rip
03-14-2012, 08:23 PM
What about the sam's club local events? Do they qualify for the royal?

The Giggler
03-14-2012, 08:32 PM
Interesting I didn't know it was a one time deal.

What does the proclamation do for the AR and Jack folks? I can understand the number of team limit but don't understand what the proclamation is doing for them.

They aren't small, or cheap (at least ours in NYS). The process to get the Gov Proc, is time consuming and an expense to the State. To get one each year would be redundant, even by KCBS standards. (laughing)

I've wondered the same thing, but definitely wanted to get the Gov Proc for my teams.

Jonesyjm
03-14-2012, 08:37 PM
I think exspectiong to get the paperwork filed within 7 days is unreasonable, it should be 30 days.

JD McGee
03-14-2012, 08:38 PM
We're putting together our package for our GC last August as I type this...:loco: Thanks to our PNWBA and BBQ Brethren for the the heads up! :thumb:

AZScott
03-14-2012, 08:45 PM
Yep, thanks for the heads up. The organizer and I have everything put together and it's going out tomorrow.

Plowboy
03-14-2012, 09:02 PM
What about the sam's club local events? Do they qualify for the royal?

They do not count for Jack and AR. They do count for TOY. Just the local events, though.

Nice job, btw.

bbqbull
03-14-2012, 09:12 PM
I can't search right now but I had a thread about state proclamations not too long ago. My take always were that they are not perpetual and mean absolutely nothing to any one except the ar and bf. Their only purpose appears to be acting as a hurdle to organizers in order to attract teams.

Are you aware at the bottom of the main page there is a Google Search Bar? It only applies to this forum, hope this is helpful information.

dmprantz
03-14-2012, 09:18 PM
I was walking through the airport posting with tapatalk. By could not search I meant that it would have been unfun.

Dustaway
03-14-2012, 10:03 PM
What about organizations like TGCBCA & IBCA that track this information for members and sends in the information to the AR, JACK are they affected?

afreemaniii
03-15-2012, 07:53 AM
The geek in me tells me this shouldn't be a difficult process for the KCBS to do. A decent database to track contest and team information along with scanning paper forms into a document management system isn't that hard or expensive to do nowadays. Computers are your friends, I swear. I believe a couple of the new BOD members have some IT backgrounds, maybe this will be handled as we move forward. For now, thanks for the heads up.

bover
03-15-2012, 07:56 AM
The geek in me tells me this shouldn't be a difficult process for the KCBS to do. A decent database to track contest and team information along with scanning paper forms into a document management system isn't that hard or expensive to do nowadays. Computers are your friends, I swear. I believe a couple of the new BOD members have some IT backgrounds, maybe this will be handled as we move forward. For now, thanks for the heads up.

With a proper contest tracking system, it could easily be 100% automated. The problem is the lack of said system. I'd really like to see KCBS start using an IT consulting service instead of an advertising agency that just happens to do IT-related tasks on the side.

Yep. I said that out loud.

Jorge
03-15-2012, 08:15 AM
speaking solely for myself, my opinion being mine and mine alone and not representing KCBS or the board....

I think you can expect to see this issue on the agenda for the next meeting.

Scottie
03-15-2012, 08:20 AM
El Jeff 2015!!!!

Plowboy
03-15-2012, 08:57 AM
El Jeff 2015!!!!

The campaign buttons are being pressed now.

dmprantz
03-15-2012, 09:28 AM
I've had a good bit of time to think on this in airplanes and sitting at home with a dead Internet connection. It makes a bit more sense to me now. I'm not sure if every one will agree with it, I'm not even sure if I agree with the approach, but the intent may not something with which I disagree:

The ARI and The Jack each require State Championship proclamations for competitions with fewer than 50 teams. This is not news. One of the questions out there is "why?" I asked it myself a few weeks ago, and the answers didn't seem to justify the requirement. Their soul purpose is to allow "smaller" competition winners to qualify for these events, but they are literally meaningless outside of that. To me the question of "why?" still remains.

Apparently, the issue has been made even worse. Some competitions in California are unable to obtain these proclamations. This hurts the GCs of those competitions, and KCBS wants to do something about it to help them. Who says the KCBS doesn't look out for the West coast? Apparently the Sam's Club locals did not get proclamations either, but I have a personal opinion that that is on purpose. It shouldn't come as a surprise that the board member who made this motion is one who has a career of organizing competitions as a contractor, including some of the Sam's Club events. Perhaps he feels, as a professional organizer, things would be better without this requirement.

Those of you who have read my posts before are no doubt aware that I am pretty detail oriented and very good at reading things and enterpreting the literal and implied meanings...you have to be to do what I do professionally. Anyway, I see the following interesting points made in the original KCBS motion and the eMail which AR sent out:

1) The KCBS BOD made this decision specifically to "punish" the AR and Jack for requiring the proclamation. This is a pissing contest with KCBS trying to bully the other organizations to do what they want, and it may be what one director wants to improve his career.

2) KCBS did not decide to stop providing winners to AR and BF. They decided to stop tracking the state championship designation. The official reason is that it takes too much work to track it, but according to the made and passed motion, the KCBS should still be providing winners to them. It's just up to them to determine state championships on their own. I call BS on that. It's a check box, or should be. Garry Howard can correct me if I'm wrong, but it should be about 750ms of work per competition to continue to track this. At 400 competitions per year, we are literally talking about five minutes over the course of a year to manage whether or not every competition is a state championship. The rest would be on the same report of winners, so no extra time. See above.

3) Based on the letter that went out, while the KCBS should still provide a list of winners to the AR, The AR is getting the list of winners themselves directly from organizers. Is it because the KCBS is providing less than they should based on the above motion? Or is it the AR giving a collective F-you to the KCBS? I don't know, but it shouldnt be that hard. Have the organizer send a copy of the proclamation to the AR before the event, and use the KCBS website to track winners....or have the KCBS provide the winners to you as they have agreed to do.

This thing is a mess with hidden agendas and subtext all over it. Unfortunately, it appears that the ones who are going to miss out are the organizers and the teams involved with those that have proclamations: The ones who care the most. I think the requirement for a state proclamation is silly, and I would not be upset if it went away, but I don't think that the KCBS trying to manipulate and force that to happen is the best approach.

Flame on....

dmp

Bride of Roo(BQ'n)
03-15-2012, 09:48 AM
Like alot of you, Tom and I wear both a competition hat and an organizer hat. When I read this request from the AR, my organizer hat said, why do I care about the Royal. Having been there and done that, my competitor hat gets it....but for those who just organize, arent members of the larger community of BBQ I can easily see this request hitting file 13. The only gain in it I see for the organizer is doing a favor to your teams, specifically for your GC. While not a huge burden, once you get beyond being blindsided by your sanctioning group and the Royal itself over something that could have been explained a year or so ago when the motion passed, its not that big of a deal but I have to ask, as the list of things KCBS IS doing as a sanctioning body continues to diminish how is it that the fees dont. As I see it from organizers perspective, all you get is a pricey classified ad in the bullsheet, and a couple of certified folks that only take responsibility for running a scoring program. KCBS is commanding premium pricing for what is becoming an eroding brand.

Smoke Ring
03-15-2012, 10:27 AM
With a proper contest tracking system, it could easily be 100% automated. The problem is the lack of said system. I'd really like to see KCBS start using an IT consulting service instead of an advertising agency that just happens to do IT-related tasks on the side.

Yep. I said that out loud.

KCBS HAS a proper contest tracking system. I know because we implemented it. They have all the tools they need to track qualifying contests and the GCs and generate the necessary reports. They have been doing it until now. We ARE an IT consulting service. MMA has nothing to do with the software that the office uses to manage membership, contests, CBJs, reps, classes, etc. MMA is responsible for kcbs.us. We have spent the past 8 years implementing and enhancing the software. We did the same for MBN. That's not an excuse.

Smoke Ring
03-15-2012, 10:34 AM
The software the office uses isn't a web site, it's a database application that runs over the Internet. It's complicated.

Jorge
03-15-2012, 10:49 AM
This thing is a mess with hidden agendas and subtext all over it. Unfortunately, it appears that the ones who are going to miss out are the organizers and the teams involved with those that have proclamations: The ones who care the most. I think the requirement for a state proclamation is silly, and I would not be upset if it went away, but I don't think that the KCBS trying to manipulate and force that to happen is the best approach.

Flame on....

dmp

Speaking solely for myself, and not representing KCBS or the board....

Have you done any analysis of what would happen if the proclamations were removed from the equation? Not just for KCBS events, but for IBCA, FBA, LSBS, etc.? The Jack and the AR have their criteria in place. 50 teams, 25 w/proclamation 2nd year plus, 15 w/proclamation first year. If you remove the proclamation requirement, how many qualifiers do you think you add?

How much real estate is available around Kemper, where every qualifier is invited and offered a free 20x20 space? What do you do to the Jack odds in the draw? Texas is already a difficult state for the draw. With few proclamations the 50 team limit is the biggest discriminating factor and there are still 70 plus qualifiers almost every year. If the door is open to 25 team contests I'd expect it to go well over 100+ annually.

Removing the requirement has a potential impact. I can't tell you if it would be good, or bad.

dmprantz
03-15-2012, 10:51 AM
Gary, I think the point that was being made is that some IT solutions, such as the Sam's Club series registration app which didn't include season in the PK, were created by MMA.

dmp

dmprantz
03-15-2012, 10:58 AM
Have you done any analysis of what would happen if the proclamations were removed from the equation?

I have not done that. I don't think it would affect The Jack too much because a barrel can hold a lot of bungs. As to the AR, you may be right, or not. Have you done that by chance? How many annual competitions do you think there are with >=25 teams and no proclamation? How many teams that win them would attend the ARI, considering that it obviously isn't a priority to them now?

My personal opinion (again) is that the proclamation serves little purpose. It is extra work and expense that organizers must incur to make things better for their teams. Maybe my position has flaws and I could be convinced otherwise. Speaking to you as a friend and a reasonable person though (not as a board member), even if the KCBS agrees with me, I don't think it's very appropriate for them to try to strong arm those two organizations to do what they want. and I'm siding against the KCBS for now out of principal.

dmp

Jorge
03-15-2012, 11:10 AM
Speaking solely for myself, not representing KCBS or the board...

As I stated earlier, I can virtually guarantee the number of qualifiers in Texas would increase by 50%. Few contests here have a proclamation, so the 50 team cutoff is the determining factor. If you include 25-49 team contests the # of qualifiers will increase dramatically. Virtually every first year event would be added to the list as well. It's not hard to pull 15 teams the first year here.

I also disagree with your assessment of the Jack. While they may be able to handle adding teams to the draw the potential impact is to dramatically decrease the odds for qualifiers from multiple states. In states that have few contests, that all have proclamations there would be no change. I guess that would be one way for the Jack to become even more exclusive. It does improve the odds of winning 7 in a year though.

Cause and effect; bbq does not exist in a vacuum.

I have not done that. I don't think it would affect The Jack too much because a barrel can hold a lot of bungs. As to the AR, you may be right, or not. Have you done that by chance? How many annual competitions do you think there are with >=25 teams and no proclamation? How many teams that win them would attend the ARI, considering that it obviously isn't a priority to them now?

My personal opinion (again) is that the proclamation serves little purpose. It is extra work and expense that organizers must incur to make things better for their teams. Maybe my position has flaws and I could be convinced otherwise. Speaking to you as a friend and a reasonable person though (not as a board member), even if the KCBS agrees with me, I don't think it's very appropriate for them to try to strong arm those two organizations to do what they want. and I'm siding against the KCBS for now out of principal.

dmp

musicmanryann
03-15-2012, 11:19 AM
bbq does not exist in a vacuum.

Unless you sous vide your chicken. :laugh::tape:

dmprantz
03-15-2012, 11:21 AM
As usual, you bring up very good points which revolve around Texas. Life would be easier if it was still a seperate country :) The other part of my argument though was that if teams cook non-state champ comps now, they likely don't care about the Jack or the Royal, or they already compete in other comps which are qualifiers too. In that case, while it might increase the candidate pool, by how much would it increase the attendee count?

dmp

Jorge
03-15-2012, 11:33 AM
As usual, you bring up very good points which revolve around Texas. Life would be easier if it was still a seperate country :) The other part of my argument though was that if teams cook non-state champ comps now, they likely don't care about the Jack or the Royal, or they already compete in other comps which are qualifiers too. In that case, while it might increase the candidate pool, by how much would it increase the attendee count?

dmp

Speaking solely for myself, not representing KCBS or the board....

facts not in evidence?:wink: I'm not going to speculate about motivation.

It's not just Texas. There would be a similar impact, in my opinion, in some other states that have a large # of contests.

I'm not saying a change would be good or bad, but I'd like to know what the potential impact was before trying to form an opinion.

Work calls, thanks for the brain candy!:becky:

Jorge
03-15-2012, 11:34 AM
Unless you sous vide your chicken. :laugh::tape:

Reveo.....just saying;)

Texana
03-15-2012, 12:42 PM
....

The good news is once you have it, you have it. :)

No so in Texas. The promoter has to repetition every year to get the proclamation.

dmprantz
03-15-2012, 03:06 PM
Speaking solely for myself, not representing KCBS or the board....

facts not in evidence?:wink: I'm not going to speculate about motivation.


Speaking to a friend, not a board member....

No facts, just my attempt at connecting the dots. On the thread I started regarding proclamations not too long ago, one of the things said was that the proclamations help people decide which competitions to attend. Those who are concerned about entry into the ARI or Jack will choose to attend competitions with proclamations over those without on the same, or even close weekends. That makes some sense to me as I tend to favour those comps which are qualifiers through both attendance and proclamations.

The logical converse to that is to say that those who currently attend competitions without proclamations are not (as) concerned with those events. Does it mean that no one who wins such an event would attend the invitationals if that requirement went away? No. On the other hand though, I seriously doubt that all, or even most, such winners would choose to attend the invitationals if the didn't care enough before to seek out invitational qualifiers. Just my guess though...

Yet another option is that the number of unique GCs would go down. If those who attend comps for invites compete in more to increase their odds, it might hurt those who don't care and already get grands. Just another consequence I hadn't previously considered.

dmp

bover
03-15-2012, 03:35 PM
KCBS HAS a proper contest tracking system. I know because we implemented it. They have all the tools they need to track qualifying contests and the GCs and generate the necessary reports. They have been doing it until now. We ARE an IT consulting service. MMA has nothing to do with the software that the office uses to manage membership, contests, CBJs, reps, classes, etc. MMA is responsible for kcbs.us. We have spent the past 8 years implementing and enhancing the software. We did the same for MBN. That's not an excuse.

My apologies. It was my understanding that MMA had a much bigger role in the software being used today.

Funtimebbq
03-15-2012, 05:20 PM
Apparently, the issue has been made even worse. Some competitions in California are unable to obtain these proclamations. This hurts the GCs of those competitions, and KCBS wants to do something about it to help them. Who says the KCBS doesn't look out for the West coast?

dmp

Hi,

About a year ago, CA had a huge budget crisis (still does) and Gov. Brown was not signing any proclaimations (of any kind) until the state assembly passed a balanced budget. It was one way for him to hold legislator's feet to the fire as many things were not getting signed.
Someone in the Gov's. office contacted Dawn at KCBS to ask what all these requests for proclaimations were for. When told about the requirements of the AR and JD, Gov. Brown signed a blanket proclaimation. This helped all the organizers in the state and all sanctioning bodies as it is not exclusive to KCBS.
My opinion is, this will also make the Sam's contest in San Diego a qualifier as the proclaimation is good for all BBQ contests in CA, as long as it is sanctioned (in this case by KCBS). Although, getting the organizer to sign a form to that effect may be difficult if they are working directly for KCBS/MMA.

Benny

SirPorkaLot
03-15-2012, 05:52 PM
From my (very) limited point of view. This is another case of the KCBS working to streamline their internal organization with little regards to teams

When I first started competing I immediately joined the KCBS and have kept my membership alive until this year.
This year I allowed it to expire and at this point I cannot come up with one single reason why I need to renew it

* I can still compete in KCBS contests (except Sams Club)
* I never even read the bullsheet when I did get it, but it worked well in the charcoal chimney.
* I will never compete enough to worry about the TOY.
* The politics have become a driving force, and instead of an organization dedicated to BBQ, it has become a wannabe Large sanctioning body (NASCAR comes to mind).

Yea. I wish everyone associated with the KCBS a lot of luck, and if things every go back to the original mission and the focus goes back to the teams I may rejoin.
I always try to support causes I believe in.

unfortunately, I no longer believe in the unwritten mission that seems to be driving the KCBS.

Rich Parker
03-15-2012, 05:57 PM
I sent an email to the president asking for a national proclamation, so we can get rid of this rule. :beer:

gmholler
03-15-2012, 06:39 PM
No so in Texas. The promoter has to repetition every year to get the proclamation.

As I understand it, that's true everywhere, but there are two types of proclamations that can be issued. A concurrent proclamation can be issued, by the governor or state legislature, for a contest that is held on the same weekend every year, usually in conjunction with a yearly festival - you see a lot of this in TX. A Governor or state legislature can also issue a "regular" proclamation - this is intended for an event that happens only once, like a one-time fundraiser. The "whereas...therefore..." language of proclamations seems a bit stuffy to me, but I guess it's there to lend an air of credibility and legitimacy to the notion of BBQ competition.

Lynn H.

ThomEmery
03-15-2012, 07:04 PM
"Some competitions in California are unable to obtain these proclamations."


California is now a blanket proclamation state so how would they not be able to?

Smokin' Hicks
03-15-2012, 08:22 PM
I really do not see the advantage of being a KCBS member any more....why not just go do the comps. and save the money you pay to join the KCBS and put it towards another comp.

Muzzlebrake
03-15-2012, 10:22 PM
OK I'm sorry but once again I don't get why everyone is all PO'd at KCBS. I read and retread this thread and am a bit confused.

It seems to me the KCBS BOD passed the motion to ". stop keeping tabs for the Am. Royal and Jack Daniels in regards to Proclamations ". The motion says nothing about not tracking GC's or contest results in any way shape or form. I think this a completely reasonable motion. I understand the importance of the state championship proclamations to the respective invitationals, but what if anything does a proclamation matter to KCBS?
My question is not why is KCBS no longer doing this but why they were tracking and providing it for the AR and The Jack to begin with. I've never been involved on the organizers end, was this a service offered to all contests?
Even the AR in their letter (which I am guessing was sent to KCBS and other sanctioning bodies) admits that "We understand that gathering together the information for all of your sanctioned contests and the Grand Champion team information for those contests can be time consuming. We are moving the responsibility to the Contest Organizers. It will be the responsibility of each Contest Organizer AND their respective Grand Champion team to return all documents". Why would KCBS involve themselves in a labor intensive quagmire that is dependent on the whim of 50 separate political entities to gather information that is irrelevant for KCBS programs?
I understand that KCBS bashing is an easy thing to do, but I think the AR deserves the lions share of the anger. It was the AR that changed the policy almost a whole after the KCBS motion and midway into their fiscal year. They had plenty of time to react, adjust and make public any changes to the system long before the 2012 qualifying period began.
Lastly can we please quit complaining about a $35 annual fee? I mean let's be serious, in a sport where the average cost per contest seems to be between $500-750, we are going to bitch about less than $3 a month?

Smokin' Hicks
03-16-2012, 01:16 AM
OK I'm sorry but once again I don't get why everyone is all PO'd at KCBS. I read and retread this thread and am a bit confused.

It seems to me the KCBS BOD passed the motion to ". stop keeping tabs for the Am. Royal and Jack Daniels in regards to Proclamations ". The motion says nothing about not tracking GC's or contest results in any way shape or form. I think this a completely reasonable motion. I understand the importance of the state championship proclamations to the respective invitationals, but what if anything does a proclamation matter to KCBS?
My question is not why is KCBS no longer doing this but why they were tracking and providing it for the AR and The Jack to begin with. I've never been involved on the organizers end, was this a service offered to all contests?
Even the AR in their letter (which I am guessing was sent to KCBS and other sanctioning bodies) admits that "We understand that gathering together the information for all of your sanctioned contests and the Grand Champion team information for those contests can be time consuming. We are moving the responsibility to the Contest Organizers. It will be the responsibility of each Contest Organizer AND their respective Grand Champion team to return all documents". Why would KCBS involve themselves in a labor intensive quagmire that is dependent on the whim of 50 separate political entities to gather information that is irrelevant for KCBS programs?
I understand that KCBS bashing is an easy thing to do, but I think the AR deserves the lions share of the anger. It was the AR that changed the policy they had plenty of time to react, adjust and make public any changes to the system long before the 2012 qualifying period began.
Lastly can we please quit complaining about a $35 annual fee? I mean let's be serious, in a sport where the average cost per contest seems to be between $500-750, we are going to bitch about less than $3 a month?


Because it is the KCBS's responsibility as governing body, they make this claim, to be involved in these "quagmire"'s and represent what is in the best interest of the participants in their organization...I understand the politics involved and all but still it is their responsibility IMO

YankeeBBQ
03-16-2012, 08:07 AM
Why would KCBS involve themselves in a labor intensive quagmire that is dependent on the whim of 50 separate political entities to gather information that is irrelevant for KCBS programs?


KCBS Mission: Recognizing barbeque as America's Cuisine, the mission of the Kansas City Barbeque Society is to celebrate, teach, preserve and promote barbeque as a culinary technique, sport and art form.

Supporting a contest with over 100 teams on one day and 500 entrants on the second day seems to fit within that mission don't you think ?

Why would any contest organizer bother to send anything to the Royal ? They might want to hold a contest on that same weekend.

This is just my opinion blah blah blah

Oh and I don't support bashing KCBS (since I'm now one of the bashed LOL)

nukenight
03-16-2012, 10:08 AM
I think the main question is of timing. I think the AR has the right to do the qualifications for the invitational any way they see fit. The real problem is they did it half way through this BBQ season. If this policy started at the beginning of the next BBQ season, I for one would have no problem with it. My wife and I would simply add this activity to our list of things we do as part of closing out a contest after awards before the cooks go home. Getting people to sign things when they are happy and together is easy. Getting them to sign up to 6 months after a contest is over can be impossible!

CBQ
03-16-2012, 10:33 AM
Organizers got the proclamations because KCBS required it. I bet the organizers who are not competitors simply are not going bother now. The board member who brought up the motion was already holding contests without procalmations.

Muzzlebrake
03-16-2012, 10:52 AM
Because it is the KCBS's responsibility as governing body, they make this claim, to be involved in these "quagmire"'s and represent what is in the best interest of the participants in their organization...I understand the politics involved and all but still it is their responsibility IMO

State proclamations have nothing to do with KCBS, they are an organizer's requirement for qualifying for their contest. Why is this KCBS's responsibility? KCBS, to my knowledge doesn't monitor, track or anyway get involved with other contest that have unique qualifying requirements.

If the Jack decides to only allow entry to teams that won a GC on a stickburner is it then KCBS's job to monitor cooker types? Harpoon has (or had I haven't checked the process this year) the additional requirement that team submit an essay describing why they should be chosen to compete. Does the KCBS as the sanctioning body have an inherent responsibility to be involved in that process too?

Supporting a contest with over 100 teams on one day and 500 entrants on the second day seems to fit within that mission don't you think ?

Why would any contest organizer bother to send anything to the Royal ? They might want to hold a contest on that same weekend.

This is just my opinion blah blah blah

Oh and I don't support bashing KCBS (since I'm now one of the bashed LOL)

Sure it is a good idea to support a contest that large, but are we now going to base KCBS support on contest size? Secondly, the proclamation has nothing to do with the 500 team contest just the 100 team invitational, correct? The Jack as you well know is nowhere near that size. Do they get supported because of prestige?

There are also more than a few 100+ team contests across the country. If they come up with unique qualifying requirements above and beyond the normal criteria and outside what is required by the sanctioning body. Who's responsible for ensuring they are met? The organizer or the sanctioning body.

I think organizers would send the information for the same reason they get the proclamation in the first place, to help draw teams. What does the proclamation have to do with an organizers contest in the first place? Does it have anything to do with their contest other than making it a "qualifier" for another contest?

That's a sincere question I'm asking, not just for KCBS but for other governing bodies as well. What does the State Proclamation really do other than get you into the Royal or the Jack draw?

Muzzlebrake
03-16-2012, 10:58 AM
Organizers got the proclamations because KCBS required it. I bet the organizers who are not competitors simply are not going bother now. The board member who brought up the motion was already holding contests without procalmations.

Is it a KCBS requirement? I didn't know that. How are there then contests without a proclamation if it is required? Does KCBS then not sanction any second year contest with less than 25 teams?

gmholler
03-16-2012, 11:13 AM
What does the State Proclamation really do other than get you into the Royal or the Jack draw?

Look at it from the perspective of an organizer who has no clue other than their boss said to work on this "BBQ contest thing". "State championship proclamation" sounds official, legitimate, like the contest is a really big deal - so it must be a good thing. Hmmm, THAT should get sponsors as well as public interest. And on top of that, that "other" contest the boss talks about run by those "other" people has that declaration, so it must be the thing to do.

Now, certainly, this isn't all organizers - but I think a lot of them see a state proclamation as more of a marketing tool for their contest; a lot of them seem to see a state proclamation as something that both makes the GC happy and likely increases(or will increase) the number of teams that come to their contest.

Lynn H.

Rich Parker
03-16-2012, 11:15 AM
Hopefully the KCBS BoD can work with the folks at American Royal and The Jack to remove the proclamation requirement and then all of this can be put to bed.

carlyle
03-16-2012, 11:27 AM
Interesting reading.
Another thing for organizers to stay on top of to insure doing a good job for their teams.

FYI: Minnesota now has blanket proclamation for all our contests.

Scottie
03-16-2012, 12:24 PM
I agree with Sean. I am not sure how tracking state proclamations, which were only created for the benefit of the ARI and the Jack benefit KCBS? They are the only 2 contests that require this and officially they are not KCBS sanctioned...

kihrer
03-16-2012, 12:38 PM
The entire proclamation thing seems to me to be irrelevant. I also think it is strange that a state would have more than one state championship in BBQ. Why doesn't the Jack and AR decide which competitions they want as qualifiers regardless of a proclamation - its not like the politicians know which contests are worthy. Maybe they should grandfather the ones they already use and then decide internally which process they may want to use to add new ones (if any).

Slamdunkpro
03-16-2012, 01:46 PM
I agree with Sean. I am not sure how tracking state proclamations, which were only created for the benefit of the ARI and the Jack benefit KCBS? They are the only 2 contests that require this and officially they are not KCBS sanctioned...

It does indirectly - It's an additional provided service to both the membership and to the organizers who buy the KCBS sanctioning service. We're changing our Rep procedures to accommodate this. MABA reps will now know to make sure that the organizer has 2 copies of the proclamation and the associated required forms (team list and info form) filled out and ready for the Grand champion to complete when they get their check and fill out any additional forms (W-9's etc). We'll also make sure that this information is communicated and followed up to both the Royal and the Jack so that people don't get unpleasant surprises in the fall. It's all about customer service and in this case the organizer is our customer.

I think this change benefits the smaller sanctioning bodies as they'll go that extra step for their organizers.

DawgPhan
03-16-2012, 02:11 PM
Anyone care to give a history lesson on state championships. When did they start? When did they make the jump to governor proclamations?

Has the ARI always needed a state championship?

What about The Jack?

Did the old KCBS TOY count state championships differently? or was it just 50+ was a triple point contest?

moocow
03-16-2012, 02:38 PM
I emailed the contestant part of the form to Melissa Pate at the American Royal this morning and she responded right away and included the congratulation letter saying we had qualified. It is a pretty short form the organizer should have on hand and have you fill out as he gives you your GC money, then he they can just send it all in together. You would know if they sent it in because you get an email back from the AR people. The contest was 3 weeks ago and she said it was no problem. Not saying who should be responsible for keeping track, just saying it was pretty painless to take care of.

bignburlyman
03-16-2012, 03:03 PM
I emailed the contestant part of the form to Melissa Pate at the American Royal this morning and she responded right away and included the congratulation letter saying we had qualified. It is a pretty short form the organizer should have on hand and have you fill out as he gives you your GC money, then he they can just send it all in together. You would know if they sent it in because you get an email back from the AR people. The contest was 3 weeks ago and she said it was no problem. Not saying who should be responsible for keeping track, just saying it was pretty painless to take care of.

Shane, I'm glad you got taken care of. I agree it was pretty painless and a short form, I think we were all a little panicked when the letter from AR said it must be received in 7 days of the contest date, when the contest was 2 weeks earlier. Going forward and knowing what AR requires I don't really forsee a problem providing the paperwork to them.

I know from trying to get info from contests for our Chest to Chest National Brisket Championship that many organizers just don't seem to respond. Now I just wonder what the Jack is going to ask for down the road.

bbqczar
03-16-2012, 04:26 PM
In Arizona the only events that have a proclomation and that will be AR and Jack qualifiers are events managed/promoted/organized by Mike Reimann and AZBarbeque,or events that are paid "AZBarbeque Triple Crown Events" that came directly from the Secretary of states office and the office also stated that no other proclamations would be given out at this time from the current Govenor.

route66
03-16-2012, 05:22 PM
In Arizona the only events that have a proclomation and that will be AR and Jack qualifiers are events managed/promoted/organized by Mike Reimann and AZBarbeque,or events that are paid "AZBarbeque Triple Crown Events" that came directly from the Secretary of states office and the office also stated that no other proclamations would be given out at this time from the current Govenor.

$500 bucks to become a qualifier in AZ? Wow! :twisted::twisted::crazy:

Grizmt
03-16-2012, 09:29 PM
$500 bucks to become a qualifier in AZ? Wow! :twisted::twisted::crazy:

Actually it's $500 to become a triple crown event which includes a bunch of stuff (advertising etc) for the organizer/promoter from what I've been told.

I think that this was all set up way back when AZBBQ was started by someone who thought ahead and figured the proclamation was a priority. I wasn't around then but that's what I gathered. BBQ started to become big business, $300-$400 per team with 50+ teams, that's alot of $$$$.

With all that being said it just makes business sense that it'd be set up so it would be harder for someone to just decide that they now want to waltz in and take over all the events in AZ taking (stealing?) all the work that was put in prior to now building it up, making them go get their own proclamation (if they could or would bother).
Kind of like a patent or protecting your "region" I'd think.
Guess it's like I've been told over and over, "it's just business" pretty sad it had to be done to begin with.

Muzzlebrake
03-16-2012, 09:43 PM
Look at it from the perspective of an organizer who has no clue other than their boss said to work on this "BBQ contest thing". "State championship proclamation" sounds official, legitimate, like the contest is a really big deal - so it must be a good thing. Hmmm, THAT should get sponsors as well as public interest. And on top of that, that "other" contest the boss talks about run by those "other" people has that declaration, so it must be the thing to do.

Now, certainly, this isn't all organizers - but I think a lot of them see a state proclamation as more of a marketing tool for their contest; a lot of them seem to see a state proclamation as something that both makes the GC happy and likely increases(or will increase) the number of teams that come to their contest.

Lynn H.

Lynn, that's a fair point about it being a good marketing tool for those uneducated with the BBQ organizational structure. I still don't think that makes it something that KCBS is responsible to track though

The entire proclamation thing seems to me to be irrelevant. I also think it is strange that a state would have more than one state championship in BBQ.

In Arizona the only events that have a proclomation and that will be AR and Jack qualifiers are events managed/promoted/organized by Mike Reimann and AZBarbeque,or events that are paid "AZBarbeque Triple Crown Events" that came directly from the Secretary of states office and the office also stated that no other proclamations would be given out at this time from the current Govenor.

Inequities like these, are the reason I think KCBS should distance themselves the whole proclamation process. From what I understand the process and procedures vary greatly from state to state. I think KCBS should distance themselves as far away as possible from the entire process

It does indirectly - It's an additional provided service to both the membership and to the organizers who buy the KCBS sanctioning service.

Mike,

I disagree but think what you said lends credence to my argument. An organizer is paying for KCBS sanctioning, not ARI or Jack sanctioning. State proclamations don't mean a thing to KCBS. They are not part of their sanctioning requirements are they?

SHBBQ
03-16-2012, 11:17 PM
The entire proclamation thing seems to me to be irrelevant. I also think it is strange that a state would have more than one state championship in BBQ. Why doesn't the Jack and AR decide which competitions they want as qualifiers regardless of a proclamation - its not like the politicians know which contests are worthy. Maybe they should grandfather the ones they already use and then decide internally which process they may want to use to add new ones (if any).

ARI and the Jack have already decided which competitions will be qualifiers, any contest with the proclamation, with a few exceptions for qualifying for the Jack. I don't know about the rest of you, but I would not cook in a contest unless it was a qualifier at this stage in my bbq career. I don't have unlimited funds to spend competing every weekend traveling all over the country. Maybe in 10 years I will but not even close now.

ThomEmery
03-17-2012, 08:23 AM
California Barbeque Competitions



Welcome to all who have come together for the sport of barbeque.

Barbeque events throughout the state bring teams and organizations together
and we welcome top teams and enthusiasts from around the county.
Multiple cities throughout the state will hold cook-offs and the winners
would hope to then compete on a national level.

Jack Daniels World Championship requires the governor of each state to
proclaim a contest a State Championship for those contests to be eligible to
compete at the national level. In addition, The American Royal National
BBQ Championship requires all contests to have a proclamation.
Accordingly, I hearby declare that any serious BBQ event in California that
wishes to be considered a State Championship has my blessing for this year
and all future years.

Good luck to all the teams, organizers, and organizations involved in these
events.

Sincerely,



EDMUND G. BROWN JR.

Funtimebbq
03-17-2012, 09:29 AM
I stand corrected, CA doesn't even need a sanctioning body to have a "serious" qualifier. Just set up some rules, get the correct number of teams, cook the right meats and remember not to smile.


Benny

route66
03-17-2012, 11:07 AM
Actually it's $500 to become a triple crown event which includes a bunch of stuff (advertising etc) for the organizer/promoter from what I've been told.

I think that this was all set up way back when AZBBQ was started by someone who thought ahead and figured the proclamation was a priority. I wasn't around then but that's what I gathered. BBQ started to become big business, $300-$400 per team with 50+ teams, that's alot of $$$$.

With all that being said it just makes business sense that it'd be set up so it would be harder for someone to just decide that they now want to waltz in and take over all the events in AZ taking (stealing?) all the work that was put in prior to now building it up, making them go get their own proclamation (if they could or would bother).
Kind of like a patent or protecting your "region" I'd think.
Guess it's like I've been told over and over, "it's just business" pretty sad it had to be done to begin with.

I understand wanting to protect ones business interest but using a Governor's Proclamation for personal business use is not allowed by the State of Arizona per the rules for request and designed for non-profit organizations. Here is a copy of the terms:

Proclamations are issued for Arizona residents or approved non-profit organizations with preferably statewide, but at least regional interest. . • Proclamations will not name specific organizations unless they are non - profit.

Grizmt
03-17-2012, 01:01 PM
I understand wanting to protect ones business interest but using a Governor's Proclamation for personal business use is not allowed by the State of Arizona per the rules for request and designed for non-profit organizations. Here is a copy of the terms:

Proclamations are issued for Arizona residents or approved non-profit organizations with preferably statewide, but at least regional interest. . • Proclamations will not name specific organizations unless they are non - profit.
Well, first off KCBS and IBCA fit the requirements and I "think" AZBBQ triple crown does as well.

Second, all this other stuff like BCS didn't exist back when this was created so from my understanding of the proclamation BCS can't be a qualifier either.

Third, at this point it was signed and filed as written and nobody's complained until now so I'm guessing there'd be little sympathy from the Gov. office.

Maybe the new "grand canyon BBQ" organization can apply for a new proclamation or another promoter could?
It'll take a while though, if it's even accepted and until then I'd guess it is what it is.

Vince RnQ
03-17-2012, 02:42 PM
There are 14 Arizona contests that have been completed or are on the KCBS calendar since December 2010 that are not Triple Crown events and yet all of them are listed as State Championships. That couldn't happen unless there is a proclamation that covers each of those events.

Just because the Arizona Governor's office may have stated that it does not intend to issue additional proclamations does not mean that it has not already issued proclamations to one or more Arizona promoters.

Grizmt
03-17-2012, 06:15 PM
There are 14 Arizona contests that have been completed or are on the KCBS calendar since December 2010 that are not Triple Crown events and yet all of them are listed as State Championships. That couldn't happen unless there is a proclamation that covers each of those events.

Just because the Arizona Governor's office may have stated that it does not intend to issue additional proclamations does not mean that it has not already issued proclamations to one or more Arizona promoters.
Quite true it "could have" but then one would figure it'd have to be posted and available like the original one wouldn't you think? I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but I don't believe a promoter has to physically provide the proclamation to register an event and since we all know promoters are all the most honest of people :roll: I'd guess KCBS doesn't require a physical copy be presented and I'd also bet that they're not highly scrutinized even if one was unless it's brought to their attention (like now I'd bet).
One other thing that makes me think KCBS can call it what it wishes without it meaning "jack" (pun intended) to the Jack or the Royal is this new rule by the Royal that hard copy proof is now required to qualify.

In my mind if someone says they've got a proclamation that covers them and it then turns out they don't it would be a real rotten way of scamming the teams.

So I guess what I'd say is if a promoter is claiming they've got a proclamation maybe you might want to ask to see it before ya pay to enter if a draw is what you're shooting for, or maybe they should all post it up to remove all doubt?
If there's one thing I've gotten a real hard lesson in lately is if it isn't in writing in front of you it doesn't exist.:thumb:

bbqczar
03-19-2012, 01:52 PM
I just got off the phone with Trista at Govenor Jan Brewer's office.Trista is with the office of, constituant services and they are the ones who handle ALL Govenors proclamations.Trista did an in-depth search with the Govenors office as well as the Secratary of States office and stated there are NO proclamations issued by Gov. Jan Brewer,she has NEVER done one.The last proclamation issued was by then Govenor Janet Napolitano and that was to Mike and AZBarbeque in 2007.Any promoter,other than Mike claiming they have a proclamation is an outright fraud,(her words)and that is direct from the Govenors office.The number to verify this is : 602-542-4331 and use menue to select the,office of constituant services, and they will again verify this.Teams,just be aware that because someone calls a contest a "State Championship" and even if it says it at KCBS,this doesn't make it so.

Grizmt
03-19-2012, 02:43 PM
There are 14 Arizona contests that have been completed or are on the KCBS calendar since December 2010 that are not Triple Crown events and yet all of them are listed as State Championships. That couldn't happen unless there is a proclamation that covers each of those events.

Just because the Arizona Governor's office may have stated that it does not intend to issue additional proclamations does not mean that it has not already issued proclamations to one or more Arizona promoters.
Turns out it can. In the interest of full disclosure, From the KCBS sanction form I found online:

Do you have a State Championship Proclamation from your Governor? ___ YES ___ NO
If yes, we would appreciate a copy with this form. (IA, IL, CO and AZ states do not need to submit this.)
I'm guessing because they figured they already had it but haven't actually READ it.

Mrs. McFrankenboo
03-19-2012, 04:36 PM
With all that being said it just makes business sense that it'd be set up so it would be harder for someone to just decide that they now want to waltz in and take over all the events in AZ taking (stealing?) all the work that was put in prior to now building it up, making them go get their own proclamation (if they could or would bother).
Kind of like a patent or protecting your "region" I'd think.
Guess it's like I've been told over and over, "it's just business" pretty sad it had to be done to begin with.

So you're saying that there should only be one person per state putting on events and that new promoters are "waltzing in" and "stealing" because they are using what was being touted as a blanket proclamation?

I'm sure the AR has their reasons and they seem the be working with people who have qualified but I hope that those that have qualified do in fact have that proclamation in hand and aren't surprised to find it doesn't exist. We'll be starting to look at states and proclamations before traveling now!

Muzzlebrake
03-19-2012, 05:04 PM
I am not really sure what you AZ brothers and sisters have going on out there, but I think it is clear cut example of why KCBS needs to stay away from the state proclamation boondoggle

Grizmt
03-19-2012, 05:27 PM
So you're saying that there should only be one person per state putting on events and that new promoters are "waltzing in" and "stealing" because they are using what was being touted as a blanket proclamation?

I'm sure the AR has their reasons and they seem the be working with people who have qualified but I hope that those that have qualified do in fact have that proclamation in hand and aren't surprised to find it doesn't exist. We'll be starting to look at states and proclamations before traveling now!

No I'm not saying that there should be only one. If someone else can get one then more power to 'em, and on top of that if they're running a competition here that they expect people to qualify for the Jack or Royal they absolutely should!

All I said was it made sense that it was done that way from purely a business standpoint. Heck, drug companies and other business do it all the time. Kind of like locking up a territory right?
As for it being touted as a "blanket proclamation", I've never heard the person who filed the proclamation say that, quite the contrary actually. Now I have heard others claim they had a blanket proclamation but I guess not?

Grizmt
03-20-2012, 12:24 PM
I've been thinking of an easy way to put this all to bed once and for all, since KCBS has to have all the proclamations to make these events state championships and since all those events are listed on the KCBS website wouldn't it make sense for KCBS to take a little bit of time and make PDF copies of said proclamations and either put them in a central location on their website or attach 'em when an event is listed? Something like xxxx state championship <pdf of proclamation>.

This would help the teams as nobody would have to worry about if the promoter has one on him (or if one exists), when they win just go to the KCBS website and print it out for the AR/Jack application.
It wouldn't take much time to set up, especially if all they did was create a "Proclamation" folder with all the scans inside for a team to choose from. This would also allow a review of said proclamations to make sure they have what they think they do.
Just a thought...

Grizmt
03-20-2012, 04:38 PM
In the interest of honesty and full disclosure
Well, great news for AZ. Evidently according to the Secretary of States office there's a blanket proclamation for AZ open to any BBQ event.:clap2::clap2:

Now it's know for sure, positively iron clad that anyone can run a comp here!
Good deal!:clap: