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roksmith
02-14-2012, 08:04 AM
With the new season getting underway with a fresh set of rules and a new board, I'd like to open a discussion on rule 8

8.Parboiling, deep-frying and sous-vide cooking competition
meat is not allowed.

I'm looking for a clear definition of the 3 illegal cooking methods.

Fat Woody
02-14-2012, 09:21 AM
From Wikipedia:

Sous-vide ( /suːˈviːd/; French for "under vacuum")[1] is a method of cooking food sealed in airtight plastic bags in a water bath for a long time—72 hours is not unusual—at an accurately determined temperature much lower than normally used for cooking, typically around 60 °C or 140 °F.

From Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Definition of PARBOIL
transitive verb: to boil briefly as a preliminary or incomplete cooking procedure

Definition of DEEP-FRY
transitive verb: to cook in deep fat

Definitive enough?

roksmith
02-14-2012, 09:53 AM
..not a huge fan of the definition of DEEP-FRY as that specific definition makes butter braising chicken illegal, but if those are the approved definitions, I can go with them.

Fat Woody
02-14-2012, 10:19 AM
They are simply "dictionary" definitions. I know we all interpret things a bit differently and that's where the trouble starts; I, for one, would venture to say that deep frying would be total immersion in fat and if you don't quite cover those thighs, it's not really deep frying :eyebrows:

And so it begins...

Nordy
02-14-2012, 10:30 AM
I'm going to go on a limb and say unless it involves a big pot of oil they aren't going to call it "deep frying." AND... if they do... there will be TONS of DQs... and some really hacked off cooks...

YankeeBBQ
02-14-2012, 10:32 AM
Fry :to cook in a pan or on a griddle over direct heat, usually in fat or oil.
Most smokers aren't direct heat....

El Pistolero
02-14-2012, 10:38 AM
Definition of DEEP-FRY
transitive verb: to cook in deep fat

Definitive enough?

Got to agree with the others...this isn't definitive at all. How deep is deep?

Deep-Fry has to mean total immersion.

Sledneck
02-14-2012, 10:39 AM
Ok, so I cook my chicken hot in a aluminum half pan with butter On a roaring hot kettle then I foil that pan half way thru as ive also seen many cooks do. So instead of butter I put oil in there. What's the difference?

roksmith
02-14-2012, 10:43 AM
Interesting how frying is legal and long as it's not deep..and you can submerge your chicken in fat as long as it's not frying. My method doesn't currently involve either of those anyways, but it IS February and seems like a good time to talk about it.

Gadragonfly
02-14-2012, 11:00 AM
Just to throw oil on the fire (we need a stirring smiley), I would think that the butter used with chicken doesn't get hot enough to be considered frying but I wonder if you could consider it parboiling? Julie

Smoke Ring
02-14-2012, 11:02 AM
..not a huge fan of the definition of DEEP-FRY as that specific definition makes butter braising chicken illegal, but if those are the approved definitions, I can go with them.

Are you implying that butter braised chicken is barbecue?

Smoke Ring
02-14-2012, 11:03 AM
Interesting how frying is legal and long as it's not deep..and you can submerge your chicken in fat as long as it's not frying. My method doesn't currently involve either of those anyways, but it IS February and seems like a good time to talk about it.

My method doesn't involve those techniques either. When I enter a barbecue contest I cook barbecue.

Sledneck
02-14-2012, 11:08 AM
My method doesn't involve those techniques either. When I enter a barbecue contest I cook barbecue.

Then teach us obi-wan :biggrin1:

dmprantz
02-14-2012, 11:22 AM
The key isn't really the depth, but rather the heat level. Frying requires high heat, 300+ plus, or at least hot enough to cause water in the food to boil out. Using oils at lower temperatures is oil poaching, and I think is legal as per the rules.

dmp

roksmith
02-14-2012, 12:06 PM
Are you implying that butter braised chicken is barbecue?

About as much as foil wrapped ribs.

But both win quite often.

Fat Woody
02-14-2012, 12:36 PM
Got to agree with the others...this isn't definitive at all. How deep is deep?

Deep-Fry has to mean total immersion.

Sorry El Pist, but that's Merriam-Webster's definition, not mine (as noted in my post). Also, in a follow-up post, I think I mentioned my definition of "deep-fry" would be "total immersion". If you're going to quote me, at least read my posts first please.

Smoke Ring
02-14-2012, 01:57 PM
Then teach us obi-wan :biggrin1:

No foil, no aluminum pans, no muffin tins, no butter or margarine. Meat, rub, smoke and a little sauce glaze. If you have to worry about whether the oil you're cooking your meat in is too deep or too hot according to the "rules" are you really cooking barbecue?

WineMaster
02-14-2012, 02:17 PM
No foil, no aluminum pans, no muffin tins, no butter or margarine. Meat, rub, smoke and a little sauce glaze. If you have to worry about whether the oil you're cooking your meat in is too deep or too hot according to the "rules" are you really cooking barbecue?

Here we go again

TooSaucedToPork
02-14-2012, 02:27 PM
No foil, no aluminum pans, no muffin tins, no butter or margarine. Meat, rub, smoke and a little sauce glaze. If you have to worry about whether the oil you're cooking your meat in is too deep or too hot according to the "rules" are you really cooking barbecue?


To prevent a crazy hijack...What constitutes BBQ is something that is discussed every 4 months...here are a few examples

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124168&highlight=definition+bbq

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118135&highlight=definition+bbq

Balls Casten
02-14-2012, 03:07 PM
You don’t have to understand the definition by arguing semantics. Just understand that muffin/aluminum pan chicken is legal. Bringing a deep fat fryer is not.

Fat Woody
02-14-2012, 03:25 PM
Oh I don't know, I could go for a crazy hijack right about now!

:popcorn:

bover
02-14-2012, 03:28 PM
Damn! Just when I was about to perfect my pulled pork funnel cakes too...

Funtimebbq
02-14-2012, 06:15 PM
The method used to get meat done should not matter one bit as long as the meat has been inspected before prepping AND a legal fuel source is used.

Maybe this rules discussion is the result of wanting to add gas cookers into the mix.

Benny

big brother smoke
02-14-2012, 06:31 PM
You Farkers need to bowl or Ice fish in the winter :loco:

U2CANQUE
02-14-2012, 07:15 PM
With the new season getting underway with a fresh set of rules and a new board, I'd like to open a discussion on rule 8

8.Parboiling, deep-frying and sous-vide cooking competition
meat is not allowed.

I'm looking for a clear definition of the 3 illegal cooking methods.

would be a lot harder to explain having a demi-water oven in ones cook site though I do believe......if you want a clean explination of the rules, as written, write the board member who is on the rules committee and ask them....I am sure that you will get a clear definition of the rules....

Fat Woody
02-14-2012, 08:31 PM
You Farkers need to bowl or Ice fish in the winter :loco:

Now that there is FUNNY! Thanks for the chuckle BBS!

Jeff_in_KC
02-14-2012, 08:39 PM
My belief is deep frying is completely submerged in fat and cooked at a high temp. Most "butter" baths I've seen (and I use a kind of variation) only have MAYBE a quarter inch of liquid in the pan when it melts. I use about six teaspoons in a half pan, hardly able to be considered deep frying, especially given the fact that I highly doubt the butter ever gets hot enough to boil and "fry". There is more liquid in my foil pouch when I open up my butts than there is in my chicken and no one questions that as deep frying.

All that being said, I appreciate the discussion as a co-chair on the rules committee with Dave, George and Steve. There are several words that, in my opinion, KCBS uses in rules that should be defined. I also am of the opinion that the rules should include a section of defined words as well. These three are great candidates for that list.

El Pistolero
02-14-2012, 08:46 PM
Sorry El Pist, but that's Merriam-Webster's definition, not mine (as noted in my post). Also, in a follow-up post, I think I mentioned my definition of "deep-fry" would be "total immersion". If you're going to quote me, at least read my posts first please.

I did read your post...I quoted you because you said definitive.

Note that in the second line of my post, which you quoted, I agreed with you that total immersion was the proper definition.

Fat Woody
02-14-2012, 09:22 PM
Then I guess we'll chalk it up to semantics, but I didn't say "definitive", I asked if it was definitive (enough to answer the OP's question).

Now I'm going bowling...:becky:

Matt_A
02-14-2012, 10:14 PM
..not a huge fan of the definition of DEEP-FRY as that specific definition makes butter braising chicken illegal, but if those are the approved definitions, I can go with them.
Butter braising chicken is NOT deep fat frying unless your immersing the chicken in a vat of 300º+ molten butter. (I don't think the results would be very satisfactory...) Braising is NOT frying.

BasicPatrick
02-15-2012, 12:21 AM
Braising is NOT frying.

Braising is not BBQ either :popcorn:....just saying:doh:

roksmith
02-15-2012, 05:33 AM
would be a lot harder to explain having a demi-water oven in ones cook site though I do believe......if you want a clean explination of the rules, as written, write the board member who is on the rules committee and ask them....I am sure that you will get a clear definition of the rules....

That's the reason I started this whole thread Rob, I've listened into the KCBS Meetings several times and read thru numerous threads on this board and others. At no time has there ever been a consensus on what constitutes each method. With each method there are "legal" cooking methods used all over KCBS which could be argued to be illegal... and are argued as such all the time.
Everybody thinks they know the definition of each... and in their own minds, they are right. Problem is..as written they leave a lot to interpretation.

Glad you mentioned the water cooker though.. been wanting one of those for the house :-D

SHBBQ
02-15-2012, 07:27 AM
Braising is not BBQ either :popcorn:....just saying:doh:

according to KCBS, it could be! lol! those crazy rules! what will we ever do with you KCBS. you're so silly!. :icon_smile_tongue:

SmokinOkie
02-15-2012, 09:18 AM
So, some thing butter bath is deep frying, others don't

Could butter bath be consider par-boiling? Doesn't say it has to be water to boil and butter in a hot smoker is boiling isn't it?

Someone just email KCBS, ask for a determination if Butter bath is illegal in THEIR option. They have to tell the reps what and why this was written.

boogiesnap
02-15-2012, 09:21 AM
also, slicing brisket and putting it in a pan of broth or whatever.

dmprantz
02-15-2012, 09:43 AM
Before people get too crazy with tangents...

Deep frying requires pure fat...period.

Butter and squeezable margarines contain both fat and water components, as well as solids. Unless you are using clarified butter, you can't really fry in it. Then there's the temperature range and submerssion to consider.

And yes, parboiling has to be water (or water based). You cannot boil oil. Placing something in hot oil is frying. Warm oil (or water) is poaching.

dmp

TooSaucedToPork
02-15-2012, 10:12 AM
hehehe...never thought of this

So I can take a butter bath, put my ribs in there to cook, and then grill 'em how I want...and its not par boiling hmmmm

roksmith
02-15-2012, 10:59 AM
I put that out there for two reasons.
1. To see what other folks thought the rule meant.
2. To pass some time in an otherwise down part of the bbq season.

Here is my take on the rules

1. Deep Frying:
Deep frying comes into play anytime something is being cooked fully submerged in oil. Temperature doesn't matter because the definition of frying does not include a temperature, but is simply "cooking in oil". It must be fully submerged because of the unfortunate word "deep". Pan frying is not illegal per the current rules.

2. Parboiling
Parboiling is the boiling of raw meat in any liquid to a state short of done. In order to be illegal, the meat must go in uncooked, come out somewhere less then fully cooked and the liquid must boil. If raw chicken is placed in a pan with any liquid, butter included, and the liquid boils.. and the chicken comes out to complete cooking somewhere else, it's illegal. I would find it extremely difficult to believe a pan of liquid in a cooker 250 degrees or higher would not boil if left in there for any period of time.

3. Sous-vide
Sous-vide is the cooking of raw meat in a sealed plastic bag at a lower temperature (usually in the 135-160 range) until the food comes up to your desired temperature and is usually held there for an extended period of time (but not always).


Just my opinion and opinions are like you know what...everybody's got one.

bogyo1981
02-15-2012, 02:04 PM
I was taught in culinary school that cooking anything in a liquid over 180 degrees is braising. And to deep fry is fat over 300 degrees. If you make duck confit you simmer the duck legs and thighs in its own fat for two hours. The reason I say this is in my opinion cooking chicken in the same manner might taste great but isn't necessarily bbq'ing. Your braising. But until kcbs makes braising illegal go for it.

dmprantz
02-15-2012, 03:36 PM
My understanding is that braising is specifically a wet cooking method that involves liquid and a tightly closed environment. Essentially the Texas crutch is braising. Fats below frying temperature is something else, especially if uncovered.

dmp

Fat Woody
02-15-2012, 03:39 PM
I was taught in culinary school that cooking anything in a liquid over 180 degrees is braising. And to deep fry is fat over 300 degrees. If you make duck confit you simmer the duck legs and thighs in its own fat for two hours. The reason I say this is in my opinion cooking chicken in the same manner might taste great but isn't necessarily bbq'ing. Your braising. But until kcbs makes braising illegal go for it.

Bogyo, a couple of things:

First, thank you for your excellent explanation! :clap:

Second, competition BBQ ain't "necessarily bbq'ing either"... :shocked:

Third, thanks for revealing my new method for cooking chicken! :tsk:

- Woody

Jorge
02-15-2012, 04:05 PM
Bogyo, a couple of things:

First, thank you for your excellent explanation! :clap:

Second, competition BBQ ain't "necessarily bbq'ing either"... :shocked:

Third, thanks for revealing my new method for cooking chicken! :tsk:

- Woody

Think you can remember that after a night of Scotch and cigars?:razz:

Fat Woody
02-15-2012, 05:25 PM
Remember What? What were we talking about??

BBQchef33
02-15-2012, 05:42 PM
Ever cook and awaygu brisket in a pan for the entire cook, by the end of the cook, its nearly completey submerged in fat and drippings.

so the brisket is sitting submerged in fat, is that parboiling, or parfrying? or is it froiling?


:behindsofa::bolt:

landarc
02-15-2012, 06:02 PM
A point that I thought was good, amongst all the talk of butter poaching, a lexicon at the beginning of the rules, describing the terms, precisely, would really help. If you define frying as defined by the KCBS rules, then there would be no issue, as the rules themselves define the term. We do this on most of our contracts, makes those inevitable issues that arise so much easier.

Hence, deep frying might well be described as being any meat cooked at temperatures over 300F, with complete immersion, at the beginning of the cooking process. It would make all the terms a lot easier for everyone to understand.

landarc
02-15-2012, 06:02 PM
So, panfrying would be allowed?

Fat Woody
02-15-2012, 06:17 PM
Ever cook and awaygu brisket in a pan for the entire cook, by the end of the cook, its nearly completey submerged in fat and drippings.

so the brisket is sitting submerged in fat, is that parboiling, or parfrying? or is it froiling?

I was thinking the same thing about pork butts - maybe it's pan-froiling, but NOT par-froiling!