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viper1
02-11-2012, 08:31 PM
I love rib burn offs. By the way I really like this site also. Even though I mostly smoke or make curred meats. I do ribs and love them. I was reading and started thinking that I always thought the competions were proving the beat cooks and recipes. But to my sunrise seems more use commercial rubs and sauses. Maybe a little doctoring. Guess i'll have to rethink how I judge the ribs and things now.

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Ron_L
02-11-2012, 08:45 PM
Why does using a commercial rub or sauce make someone less of a cook? And why would that change the way you judge? Well cooked meat with a good flavor profile is well cooked meat with a good flavor profile regardless of the source of the rub and sauce.

:confused:

viper1
02-11-2012, 09:16 PM
Why does using a commercial rub or sauce make someone less of a cook? And why would that change the way you judge? Well cooked meat with a good flavor profile is well cooked meat with a good flavor profile regardless of the source of the rub and sauce.

:confused:

Sorry your confused1 Don't think I said any thing about it making any one a bad cook. I said I thought coming up with your own recipes was part of the completions. Would never of thought I could simply go out and buy the same sause or rubs. Guess I just assumed too much and never asked. Also the fact I enjoy coming up with my own and seeing the results. Just figured others felt the same. Like I said I didn't know.

Nordy
02-11-2012, 09:49 PM
I guess it's a good thing that cooking good Q is more than just sauces and spices

:doh:

kurtsara
02-11-2012, 11:52 PM
What is a rib burn off?

NRA4Life
02-12-2012, 08:07 AM
I was reading and started thinking that I always thought the competions were proving the beat cooks and recipes. But to my sunrise seems more use commercial rubs and sauses. Maybe a little doctoring. Guess i'll have to rethink how I judge the ribs and things now.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

I'd like to ask how you'll know whose BBQ is made with commercially bought rubs and sauces, doctored commercially bought rubs and sauces, or originally made rubs and sauces?

I'm under the assumption that your "rethinking" would entail scoring people using commercially bought products lower than BBQ made with products made by the competitor?

Judges are supposed to judge the BBQ as it is presented, you're biasing your scores based on assuptions of what you suspect was used in seasoning the meat. You might consider not judging any more contests until you are able to work through your biased thinking problem.

viper1
02-12-2012, 08:28 AM
I'd like to ask how you'll know whose BBQ is made with commercially bought rubs and sauces, doctored commercially bought rubs and sauces, or originally made rubs and sauces?Didn't figure I could. But a person could compare to other sauses.

I'm under the assumption that your "rethinking" would entail scoring people using commercially bought products lower than BBQ made with products made by the competitor? Don't assume any thing. Your reading words into what I said. I have seen plenty home made i would judge lower. But also if i dont know its commercial as you said how could I.

Judges are supposed to judge the BBQ as it is presented, you're biasing your scores based on assuptions of what you suspect was used in seasoning the meat. You might consider not judging any more contests until you are able to work through your biased thinking problem.Well first of all Im not a judge. But when I judge for my own taste. I take only one thing in. How it tastes. I could care less on presentation. But if I know its a home brew sauce or rub competing yes I would think more of it. To me its the difference in being yours or using someone elses. Guess I always thought the pros did it bigger and better and new all the tricks. Not just how to BBQ.

Tack
02-12-2012, 08:41 AM
Knowing all the tricks???? Nah but sometimes we know what works and what the judges like and are smart enough to use it.

G$
02-12-2012, 09:20 AM
Viper, just for clarity, when a (KCBS) judge performs their judging duty on contestants' entries, they do not know where the rub, sauce, meat, wood, smoker, or team came from. From a competition standpoint, (which is what your original post was about), it does not matter and is not known. The entry will be judged on it's merit.

And FWIW, many excellent teams make all their rubs, sauces, and iunjection from "scratch". Many excellent teams take a meticulous, well planned, and practiced hybrid approach. I am not sure of any excellent teams that heat the meat to desired temp and then season with strictly commercial products - but they may well exist and they probably enjoy what they are doing.

Ron_L
02-12-2012, 09:26 AM
OK... Before you start yelling at people (posting in all caps or all bold is considered yelling), re-read your post and then consider that you have posted in the competition section of the forum. I've highlighted a couple of sections.

I love rib burn offs. By the way I really like this site also. Even though I mostly smoke or make curred meats. I do ribs and love them. I was reading and started thinking that I always thought the competions were proving the beat cooks and recipes. But to my sunrise seems more use commercial rubs and sauses. Maybe a little doctoring. Guess i'll have to rethink how I judge the ribs and things now.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

The section is blue sure sounds like you have changed your opinion of the quality of competition cooks (remember, you posted in the comp section) because you found out that they don't all use home made rubs and sauces. (I'm assuming that beat was supposed to be best and was a victim of auto-correct :) )

The section in fuscia (!) indicates that you are judging ribs, and since you posted this in the competition section, the only conclusion that folks can come to is that you are a judge.

Well first of all Im not a judge. But when I judge for my own taste. I take only one thing in. How it tastes. I could care less on presentation. But if I know its a home brew sauce or rub competing yes I would think more of it. To me its the difference in being yours or using someone elses. Guess I always thought the pros did it bigger and better and new all the tricks. Not just how to BBQ.

Now we find out that you aren't a judge. OK. But then once again you imply that you would think less of anyone who doesn't use their own rubs and sauces. Why would that make any difference? I choose to use a commercial rub because it has the flavor profile that I am looking for. That doesn't mean that I don't know how to buld a rub or make a sauce. I choose to use a commercial product because it gives me the result that I want. Over the past four years the judges have agreed (most of the time :-D).

As far as knowing all of the tricks, maybe using a particular commercial rub or sauce is one of those tricks. I doubt that you will find any competition cook who will say that they know everything. Even the guys who are at the top of the rankings will tell you that they are constantly learning. That's what keeps them at the top.

I don't want to start (or continue) an argument, but you have to take into account what you wrote, how you wrote it, and where you posted it. The folks here are competitors, so when you refer to judging they assume, right or wrong, that you are talking about judging competitions.

MilitantSquatter
02-12-2012, 09:28 AM
Viper - are you generally referring to what you expected the rib burners to be doing ? Not sure of the rules in rib burns but I'd suspect any product can be used.

A KCBS contest, different from a rib-burn off in some ways... it allows commerical products,

in either case your issue should reside with the rules, not the contestants. They may or may not know all the tricks, but they are working within the rules and what's convenient.

I'd think for a rib burn, where hundreds if not thousands of pounds of meat are cooked, it might not be the most cost efficient thing to try to produce your own rubs & sauces in such high volume unless you were having them blended commerically

viper1
02-12-2012, 09:33 AM
Kind of sorry i brought it up! Some times what I say dont match my thoughts. And not real good with words.
1.I wasn't yelling but tried to highlight my response for easier reading. I was always taught caps is yelling.
2. Just thought pros had secret recipes... not necessarily better.
3. I am no trained Judge only a guy who has cooked and enjoyed BBQ a long time .
4. I do take pride in my recipes. Not saying any one else don't. I also enjoying being able to tweak mine to get better results and don't use commercial. Not saying it's wrong but sure seems to touch a delicate spot with the ones that do.
5. Id never be in a spot to judge, I enjoy all of it.
6. I do like the site. And sorry if I offended any one. Carry on!

Ron_L
02-12-2012, 10:02 AM
No worries! It's all good.

BTW, most competition cooks do have secret recipes :) But those secret recipes may just be the right combination of a couple of different commercial products :-D

Smokin' Hicks
02-12-2012, 10:09 AM
doesn't make sense.....you buy all your spices that you use at home right? what??? you don't make your own salt and pepper? are you kidding me you don't make your own granulated garlic? everybody uses premade product at some point....its just all about how and what you combine :wink:

indianagriller
02-12-2012, 10:26 AM
So... if i use my own rub that I have blended for me because a co-packer can produce 10lbs of rub cheaper than i can buy the ingredients for is it considered a commercial rub?

viper1
02-12-2012, 10:33 AM
doesn't make sense.....you buy all your spices that you use at home right? what??? you don't make your own salt and pepper? are you kidding me you don't make your own granulated garlic? everybody uses premade product at some point....its just all about how and what you combine :wink:

You are kidding right! Mixing salt and garlic = using bottled sauces and rubs?
Apples and oranges.

viper1
02-12-2012, 10:38 AM
So... if i use my own rub that I have blended for me because a co-packer can produce 10lbs of rub cheaper than i can buy the ingredients for is it considered a commercial rub?

No I would not consider that the same if you came up with the formula. again Apples and Oranges?

You know! I sure hope you guys are ribbing me. I ve already said Sorry but all these comments are still coming.
If your not then maybe you ought to re investigate your self and what your doing.. Why are you personally worried about what i said unless you feel somethings wrong? I made a statement to a group. I didnt say any thing was wrong. Only that I had noticed it.
I dont care if you use Open pit or just plain chili powder my self. And I could care less how some one feels about what I use. I do what I enjoy and you should too! Seems so many people today feel insecure. Ever notice that?
LOL

viper1
02-12-2012, 10:39 AM
No worries! It's all good.

BTW, most competition cooks do have secret recipes :) But those secret recipes may just be the right combination of a couple of different commercial products :-D

Thanks Ron!

viper1
02-12-2012, 10:40 AM
So mixing garlic and salt is the same as using open pit huh?

indianagriller
02-12-2012, 10:58 AM
I was just providing a different way to look at it, i buy my rub from my co-pack because it is cheaper. When i compete i want to win, it benifits my business so i cook what the judges want. Its not how i like bbq, but i dont cook for me. I do have "secret" competition recipes, i will tell you all the products i use, but the secret is in how i use them. I love competing and i love cooking bbq for my customers, but it is not the same style of bbq.

Sawdustguy
02-12-2012, 12:38 PM
Look at it this way. The guys who manufacture the more successful commercial rubs and sauces have been perfecting it for years. Why re-invent the wheel. This is something we learned very quickly when we started competing.

A good point was brought up in a prior post. Quite a few of us don't prepare the que we eat at home the same way we prepare the que at a contest. Consider that at a contest we have two bites to capture the judges attention. The flavors are amped up beyond my personal taste. At home I make my own sauce because I do not care for real sweet bbq sauce but at a contest sweet wins. At a contest we prepare what we think the judges will give us the best scores for, not what we would prefer to eat ourselves.

Tack
02-12-2012, 12:41 PM
Well said SawDust. I personally like my own sauces, judges on the other hand have a profound dislike for em, a lesson I learned tha hard way.

Red Valley BBQ
02-12-2012, 12:52 PM
Well said SawDust. I personally like my own sauces, judges on the other hand have a profound dislike for em, a lesson I learned tha hard way.

Just use more salt. :laugh:

viper1
02-12-2012, 12:53 PM
Look at it this way. The guys who manufacture the more successful commercial rubs and sauces have been perfecting it for years. Why re-invent the wheel. This is something we learned very quickly when we started competing.

A good point was brought up in a prior post. Quite a few of us don't prepare the que we eat at home the same way we prepare the que at a contest. Consider that at a contest we have two bites to capture the judges attention. The flavors are amped up beyond my personal taste. At home I make my own sauce because I do not care for real sweet bbq sauce but at a contest sweet wins. At a contest we prepare what we think the judges will give us the best scores for, not what we would prefer to eat ourselves.

Well I never thought of it that way. See I never done or would do competitive. I have a hard enough time pleasing my self and family and friends.LOL But I prefer my recipes. When I started smoking and BBQ'ing I did use store brought brands or ordered on line. Now i tend to use my own and do consider it a step up then beginners. I now understand you may also. And do what you do to compete. I also know some commercial things I do like. When I do for my own use I still prefer a clone to tweak. But I see how judges have maybe ramped things up where you are better off the way you do. I would probably personally like your home cooked better then the way judges do. My tastes are probably not as refined either. LOL

Fat Freddy
02-12-2012, 02:33 PM
Viper1, i will take you at what you explained and I think Ron did an excellent job of explaining the issues with the post. I think if you would have posted this under Q-talk rather than competition the responses would have been different. Also there was one phrase you used and I truly believe only that one phrase that caused the unexpected responses. The phrase was "Guess i'll have to rethink how I judge the ribs and things now."

The reason that phrase cause several of us to react is because to enter a competition we have to pay for an entry, buy meats(usually chicken,ribs,pork, and brisket) usually buy ice, any kind of drinks, pay fuel costs and MANY MANY other expenses. So if we can save a few dollars buy buying a commercial rub or sauce it is well worth it.

But then by the original posting we read of that "rogue" judge that is going to judge our product differently if that judge perceives the product as "commercial", it will cause reactions.

Only speaking for KCBS comps, the judge is supposed to judge the entry as it is presented without personal biases.

I hope that may clear up any confusion as to why us comp cooks are reacting the way we are. After reading further you do say you are not a judge but that may not be understood right away.

viper1
02-12-2012, 02:50 PM
Viper1, i will take you at what you explained and I think Ron did an excellent job of explaining the issues with the post. I think if you would have posted this under Q-talk rather than competition the responses would have been different. Also there was one phrase you used and I truly believe only that one phrase that caused the unexpected responses. The phrase was "Guess i'll have to rethink how I judge the ribs and things now."

The reason that phrase cause several of us to react is because to enter a competition we have to pay for an entry, buy meats(usually chicken,ribs,pork, and brisket) usually buy ice, any kind of drinks, pay fuel costs and MANY MANY other expenses. So if we can save a few dollars buy buying a commercial rub or sauce it is well worth it.

But then by the original posting we read of that "rogue" judge that is going to judge our product differently if that judge perceives the product as "commercial", it will cause reactions.

Only speaking for KCBS comps, the judge is supposed to judge the entry as it is presented without personal biases.

I hope that may clear up any confusion as to why us comp cooks are reacting the way we are. After reading further you do say you are not a judge but that may not be understood right away.

Ok Thanks now I understand. It was a statement I guess I didnt think out. When I eat BBQ I pay more attention to the rub. Searching for a taste or combination that works for me. That's all I meant from judging. I just did it here to get some feed back not irate any one. I haven't ever been to a competitive cook so I wouldn't know. I have been at burn offs. Like you say they cook a lot of meat up. So happy cookin! I'll keep my nose out of here from now on
. LOL

Tack
02-12-2012, 03:21 PM
No reason to as you say "keep Your Nose out of here. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the site. Lots of info here that may help you find the taste that you like as you put it.

Q-Dat
02-12-2012, 03:24 PM
Well I personally am trying to use my own rubs and sauce for competitions. I don't do it because I think any less of people who use proven products. I do it in preparation for a future that will probably never happen. On the very slim chance that any of my rubs or sauce are successful enough to warrant me selling them, I want to know the actual recipe, and not have to purchase someone else's already marked up product in order to make mine.

Like I said, this will probably never happen, but you never know!

butt head
02-12-2012, 04:12 PM
No I would not consider that the same if you came up with the formula. again Apples and Oranges?

You know! I sure hope you guys are ribbing me. I ve already said Sorry but all these comments are still coming.
If your not then maybe you ought to re investigate your self and what your doing.. Why are you personally worried about what i said unless you feel somethings wrong? I made a statement to a group. I didnt say any thing was wrong. Only that I had noticed it.
I dont care if you use Open pit or just plain chili powder my self. And I could care less how some one feels about what I use. I do what I enjoy and you should too! Seems so many people today feel insecure. Ever notice that?
LOL
don't worry, it's winter and they always get like this after a little cabin fever:wacko:

NRA4Life
02-12-2012, 05:56 PM
Also there was one phrase you used and I truly believe only that one phrase that caused the unexpected responses. The phrase was "Guess i'll have to rethink how I judge the ribs and things now."

You hit the head right on the nail.

CBQ
02-12-2012, 08:49 PM
No worries! It's all good.

BTW, most competition cooks do have secret recipes :) But those secret recipes may just be the right combination of a couple of different commercial products :-D

:thumb: That's exactly right. I don't think (most) competition teams are winning by using a single commerical product. They are blending different products in a way to create the flavor profile they want.

That isn't much different than making stuff from scratch, but it often saves time. Rubs and sauces made from scratch could have dozens of ingredients in them. Using commercial products make that more managable, but it's still up to the cook to make it work.

jbrink01
02-12-2012, 09:10 PM
:thumb: That's exactly right. I don't think (most) competition teams are winning by using a single commerical product. They are blending different products in a way to create the flavor profile they want.

That isn't much different than making stuff from scratch, but it often saves time. Rubs and sauces made from scratch could have dozens of ingredients in them. Using commercial products make that more managable, but it's still up to the cook to make it work.

We had our best year ever last year, and we started the season by getting a dozen sauces, 8 or 10 rubs and doing an excel sheet with combos and opinions. It cost a Saturday and several hundred dollars, but it was well worth it. BTW - We won our first grand using my own seasonings several years ago. We get more consistent results using a blend of commercially available products.

Ron_L
02-12-2012, 10:15 PM
We had our best year ever last year, and we started the season by getting a dozen sauces, 8 or 10 rubs and doing an excel sheet with combos and opinions. It cost a Saturday and several hundred dollars, but it was well worth it. BTW - We won our first grand using my own seasonings several years ago. We get more consistent results using a blend of commercially available products.

I'll trade some freshly roasted coffee for that spreadsheet!

:tea:

zombie barbecue2
02-13-2012, 10:09 PM
No reason to as you say "keep Your Nose out of here. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the site. Lots of info here that may help you find the taste that you like as you put it.

We started out in competition BBQ not knowing a thing. We have grown. And part of that is with mentoring from people like Tack, Porter Mac's Rocking BBQ and others on this site and at comps. We are here to compete, cook good BBQ, and have a great time with friends. Whether they be in person or online. No reason to hate when you can eat good BBQ and enjoy life.

Brauma
02-14-2012, 06:37 AM
If you know a team that does fairly well at comps, ask if you can pit bitch for them or be the diddler. It will completely change the way you think about competition BBQ.

After 3 years of competing (we only did 2 or 3 comps a year, though) I am about to take a CBJ class next month. Can't wait! I'm positive I will learn a ton about judging that I never knew from 3 years of competing. I should've done this a lot sooner.

Muddy River Boy
02-14-2012, 07:04 AM
With any recipe: if you change one ingredient (add or delete) then it is a different recipe.:attention:

Just saying.

jbrink01
02-14-2012, 11:16 AM
I'll trade some freshly roasted coffee for that spreadsheet!

:tea:

But it would be so subjective, you wouldn't get much out of it......:icon_blush:

landarc
02-14-2012, 11:58 AM
Viper, what JBrink points to really is the point, wven if you use all commercial products, eack combination of cooker, rub, sauce and smoke will change the result. Even if you use Blues Hog, there are no guarantees, as not every rub will work with it well.

viper1
02-14-2012, 12:13 PM
Viper, what JBrink points to really is the point, wven if you use all commercial products, eack combination of cooker, rub, sauce and smoke will change the result. Even if you use Blues Hog, there are no guarantees, as not every rub will work with it well.

Well I was trying to keep out of this but no one will let it this thread die. My opinion and only my opinion is.
I can not lay claim to a recipe or formula somebody else made whether or not I twink it.
I also Like to know that I can repeat recipes for as long as I want. Can't do that if some one quits producing that product.
I enjoy designing my own and take a lot of pride in it. I also believe Im as cook a cook or better then some. Just dont need to compete to prove it.

Now some under stand and for those that don't. I commented with out meaning no harm or foul! But some took it personal. Im at a point now I fell "Too BAD!" It was not a personal attack just a statement. I dont care how you read it. I'm a hunter and lots of people dont like or agree with hunters. I dont take it personal. I now know you guys do this in my opinion as sort of a sport. And do what it takes to win. There is nothing wrong with that! And the tools you use is your choice. I hope you have fun and enjoy! But trying to pound your beliefs no matter what they are into a 59 year old's head is a waste of time. I love curing,smoking,grilling and cooking. Just dont understand why people have to read more into a comment these days then what was meant. Its not like I didnt explain my self!

CBQ
02-15-2012, 12:57 AM
I commented with out meaning no harm or foul! But some took it personal.

I don't think anyone took it personally. If you offer an opinion, it's pretty much a sure thing that someone will offer a contrary opinion. It's expected and even encouraged here, but the moderators will take a pretty strong stand against personal attacks

I do think using commercial products is still cooking. As I always tell the general public, the big barbecue secret is that there is no secret ingredient. There isn't that one special something that makes you win, but it's paying attention to all the little details. You are, of course, free to disagee. :tape:

NRA4Life
02-15-2012, 08:01 AM
The competition section of this forum is really for folks that compete, judge, are interested in competing, and interested in gaining more information about competing.

By your own admission, you fit none of those descriptions. Yet you decide to start your post off in the competition section of the forum essentially criticizing those that use commercially made products during competitions. How could that be any more ignorant? That would be like me going on the bradycampaign.org forum and posting my own personal opinion, since I am a Life member of the NRA, without intending "anything personal" while posting my unopinionated views on second amendment rights.

What exactly were you trying to start, clarify, or flame-up? Being a non-competitior and a non-judge, you came into a competition forum and simply made a blanket statement. You didn't ask any questions about anything. What was the point of your original post if not simply to cause dissention? Your best choice of action would have been to apologize for making comments about something you know nothing about, yet now you seem overtly indignant that forum members who are competitors aren't going to tolerate your perpetual ignorance.

Ron_L
02-15-2012, 04:36 PM
Mod Note:

Let's keep this civil. Apologies have been made and points have been made on both sides. Any further discussion should avoid name calling and accusations or the thread will be locked.

landarc
02-15-2012, 04:45 PM
I see Vipers point, and understand that relying on a commercially made product does put you at a disadavantage in some regards. Especially since small companies are having some tough times. I also can and do make my own rubs and sauces, when I decided to, and they can be quite good.

In terms of competitions, most of the cooks I know rarely enter a new season doing exactly the same thing they did the year before, almost all of them go through a winnowing and tasting process each year to determine what they are going to do for that year. Many will even change tracks mid-year if results are not there.

But, at the end of the day, competitions are pretty serious stuff for most folks, and when you are spending $400 or more per weekend to compete, you are gonna be pretty intense about thinking you are a good cook and belong there.