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View Full Version : KCBS "lower level" ToY contest


Rich Parker
02-09-2012, 06:57 PM
What do you guys think of this?

MOTIONS:

Candy Weaver: I move that we implement a 5-contest only ToY contest for 2012.

Sent to the members of the Board for consideration is a proposal to implement a "lower level" ToY contest. This idea and proposal originated from Dawn, the KCBS administrator for ToY.

Taken from here.
http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=457

SeaDogBBQ
02-09-2012, 07:40 PM
I think having two sep ToY categories would be good. Im not sure on the 5 contest only part of the proposal. I would suggest setting up two ranges....maybe 1-10 and 10+ contests.

Matt_A
02-09-2012, 08:10 PM
5 does seem kind of low....

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
02-09-2012, 08:14 PM
I think having two sep ToY categories would be good. Im not sure on the 5 contest only part of the proposal. I would suggest setting up two ranges....maybe 1-10 and 10+ contests.

Part of me likes the idea because I know I'll never do more than 10 a year but at the same time it would never feel right winning a "lower" TOY.

Coz
02-09-2012, 09:20 PM
Speaking for myself , I think the TOY program shouldnt be set up much different for a national deal. I just think if you want to be considered a "National Champion" 10 contests at a minimum shouldnt be out of line.

Still Smokin
02-09-2012, 09:28 PM
I like it. I do mostly SCBA comps, but did 3 KCBS last year and might be inclined to travel to 2 more KCBS events if there was a 5 comp TOY. 10 is a reasonable # but unobtainable for me as I would have to travel more than 8 hours on at least 4 comps to do 10.

Scottie
02-09-2012, 10:02 PM
I agree with Coz. 5 contests isn't what TOY is about. KCBS should be encouraging teams to cook more contests, not less.

Smokedelic
02-09-2012, 10:35 PM
I don't know how you could be considered a "Team of the Year" by only cooking a couple of months of it. Bad idea KCBS.:hand:

AZScott
02-09-2012, 10:57 PM
Time, money, jobs, and other things keep teams from going after the TOY as it stands today. I applaud and personally envy every team that can do it but for the vast majority of teams a run will never happen. Perhaps two categories such as 12 or less comps with the top 5 or 6 contests counting and > 12 comps for the TOY as we know it today. As it stands, the KCBS standings mean very little to most teams since the type of schedule to take a run for it is a pipe dream for most. I fully believe a second tier TOY with diminished money and stature would do much more to increase the amount of competitions a typical team does each year since they will actually have a better chance of placing in the top 25.

Q-Dat
02-09-2012, 10:59 PM
I think the idea is that there are some really great cooks that don't have the pockets or the time to cook 30 contests a year. This is a way to recognize teams that are some of the best, without taking anything away from the Big T.O.Y. winners.

But lets face it. Winning the Team of the Year does not necessarily mean that you were the best team that year, it just means that you were the best team to cook 30+ events. Now don't get me wrong on this, these guys who win T.O.Y. like Quau, Pellet Envy, Munchin Hogs, and others most likely are the best of the best, but there are teams out there that could make runs at it, but will most likely never be able to due to whatever.

I do agree that 5 seems low. 10-20 would make more sense to me.

Rich Parker
02-10-2012, 06:14 AM
I kind of agree that ToY should be the most points for the the year and not limited to any number of comps, but I give them credit for trying to come up with a way to involve the other 99% of the membership.

I think in the end it might encourage teams to compete more that get tied up in the race and might increase attendance to the annual banquet.

I think the idea is that there are some really great cooks that don't have the pockets or the time to cook 30 contests a year. This is a way to recognize teams that are some of the best, without taking anything away from the Big T.O.Y. winners.

But lets face it. Winning the Team of the Year does not necessarily mean that you were the best team that year, it just means that you were the best team to cook 30+ events. Now don't get me wrong on this, these guys who win T.O.Y. like Quau, Pellet Envy, Munchin Hogs, and others most likely are the best of the best, but there are teams out there that could make runs at it, but will most likely never be able to due to whatever.

I do agree that 5 seems low. 10-20 would make more sense to me.

I believe the current program is your top ten events.

timzcardz
02-10-2012, 06:41 AM
The goals of KCBS would be much better served if they put forth an effort to work with local/regional groups to promote the establishment of local/regional championships much the way the Empire State BBQ Championship Series ( http://empirestatebbqchampionship.com/ ) is done in NY.

It doesn't diminish or detract from the TOY in any way and yet promotes participation in competitions for thsoe that can't or won't travel all over the country.

DawgPhan
02-10-2012, 08:20 AM
if there is a cash prize, I am in....

DawgPhan
02-10-2012, 08:34 AM
you should also have to declare before the season starts or some cutoff date which series you are competing in and not be able to change during the season.

Plowboy
02-10-2012, 10:00 AM
Not a lot of details here, so it will be interesting to hear what the proposal is. There must be a cap on total contests cooked. I can't see the declaration being very efficient or effective. If someone gets on a run, they shoot themselves in the foot for the big TOY because they already declared for Baby TOY at the beginning of the season.

I only cooked 12 TOY contests last year and finished 50th overall and 20th in chicken. At one point, I was 6th in ribs August with only 8-9 contests. Could someone win chicken in Baby TOY and get Top 20 in TOY at the same time?

DawgPhan
02-10-2012, 10:09 AM
Not a lot of details here, so it will be interesting to hear what the proposal is. There must be a cap on total contests cooked. I can't see the declaration being very efficient or effective. If someone gets on a run, they shoot themselves in the foot for the big TOY because they already declared for Baby TOY at the beginning of the season.

I only cooked 12 TOY contests last year and finished 50th overall and 20th in chicken. At one point, I was 6th in ribs August with only 8-9 contests. Could someone win chicken in Baby TOY and get Top 20 in TOY at the same time?


Why would declaring which series you wanted your points to go towards not be efficient? Or effective?

You say I want to go for Baby TOY and you earn points for that series. Your points dont also go for the TOY.

Also if you finish in the top 10 for baby TOY you shouldnt be able to sign up for baby TOY any more.

If you sign up for baby and get hot, guess you will sign up for the regular TOY next year.

TooSaucedToPork
02-10-2012, 10:13 AM
I think it is a great idea. If you want to draw more teams to KCBS, this is a way to do it. I'd say that 70% of teams in this sport do not cook more than 5 contests a year...This opens up a TOY to EVERYONE, not just the guys with the ability and money to do 20+ contests a year.

Perhaps call it Junior TOY, or Auxiliary TOY... If you enter under 5 KCBS contests a year, you are eligible for Auxiliary or Junior Team of the Year. You use the same calculations as the regular TOY http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/TeamOfTheYearCalculation.pdf and wham...Every team in the US has something they can achieve...

Let the little guys have this one guys...It will be great for the sport!

DawgPhan
02-10-2012, 10:21 AM
I think it is a great idea. If you want to draw more teams to KCBS, this is a way to do it. I'd say that 70% of teams in this sport do not cook more than 5 contests a year...This opens up a TOY to EVERYONE, not just the guys with the ability and money to do 20+ contests a year.

Perhaps call it Junior TOY, or Auxiliary TOY... If you enter under 5 KCBS contests a year, you are eligible for Auxiliary or Junior Team of the Year. You use the same calculations as the regular TOY http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/TeamOfTheYearCalculation.pdf and wham...Every team in the US has something they can achieve...

Let the little guys have this one guys...It will be great for the sport!

you know that isnt the current calculation, right?

Plowboy
02-10-2012, 10:25 AM
Why would declaring which series you wanted your points to go towards not be efficient? Or effective?

You say I want to go for Baby TOY and you earn points for that series. Your points dont also go for the TOY.

Also if you finish in the top 10 for baby TOY you shouldnt be able to sign up for baby TOY any more.

If you sign up for baby and get hot, guess you will sign up for the regular TOY next year.

Let's say a deadline is set for delcaring. You miss it. What happens? Are you instantly put in one of the races or out completely?

You make "this year" and "next year" sound so easy. There's a ton of luck that goes into this in addition to the skill. Teams don't finish in the same position year to year. Many who thought they would never chase TOY points find themselves in a top 10 position and start to find a way to cook more. Many teams will tell you it is hard to repeat the same success for many reasons. I'm sure TrueBud had no idea they'd earn so many 1st place rib finishes. In October, they were top 10, but not 1st in Rib TOY. They cooked everywhere the last 3 months trying to get to Rib TOY... and did. It ain't easy, folks. Teams will jump on planes or drive halfway across the country in October-December if they are having a good run, just to finish top 10 in a category.

If I declare Baby TOY, am I limited to the number of contests I can cook, or just the number that count? Can I declare Baby TOY and cook 35 contests? Is that what the guy who cooked 7 was really expecting? I'm betting I could pull 5 GC's and RGC's in 35 contests. Most cooks could when you cook that much.

If I declare TOY and something happens with my job, my family, or myself, but I cooked 6-8 solid contests, am I not able to be considered part of Baby TOY? I'm assuming your answer is no.

There's a lot of manual effort that goes into keep that TOY list today. Keeping two and having to track declarations could be challenging.

OH!!!! Can I have two teams? A TOY team and a Baby TOY team? Afterall, TOY is not tracked by head cook, but by team! Forget all of my points above. I just found the loophole! :thumb:

nukenight
02-10-2012, 10:26 AM
I think a 5 contest points chase for cookers in each of the the proposed five KCBS regions would be very useful. Each region then would have their list of top top cookers. this would spread the wealth to more cookers. If desired, you could invite the top 10 or so in the regions to a national championship contest. Right now the KCBS TOY process is for a few members who can afford to travel all over the country.

Kit R
02-10-2012, 11:05 AM
On the "who is the winningest team" thread that devolved into a "who do you dread seeing pull up at a comp" discussion, I said back on the 4th that it would interesting to see a list of teams ranked by average TOY points earned per competition. I also said the list should be limited to teams with at least ten TOY qualifying comps in a year so as to get a large enough sample size to minimize the effect of "outlier" performances like a DAL due to category DQ, a single awesome performance by an otherwise midpack performing team, etc. Looks like KCBS has some interest in the question as well.

LOTS of things to consider if you go down this road that have been touched on by others, but I think five comps is too low for a representative sample. If a team had a great performance early in the season, they'd have incentive to only cook a few more comps, and to select those comps with an eye toward "bottom feeding" to keep the TOY number high. You could do that with more total comps, but the more times you cook the harder it gets to maintain that high level of performance if the one good result was an anomaly.

Not saying that I agree or disagree with the concept, just my observations on the subject. Bottom line, if KCBS introduces money or, God forbid, an actual piece of hardware into this conversation, you better believe that every way to game the system will be used. Better to weed out potential workarounds as early as possible to the extent possible.

kihrer
02-10-2012, 11:16 AM
I think a 5 contest points chase for cookers in each of the the proposed five KCBS regions would be very useful. Each region then would have their list of top top cookers. this would spread the wealth to more cookers. If desired, you could invite the top 10 or so in the regions to a national championship contest. Right now the KCBS TOY process is for a few members who can afford to travel all over the country.

I like the regional ToY and National ToY idea. Regional ToYs could be decided by sanctioned contests within the region and could be limited to a teams best "#" comps within the region (not sure what the number should be but would like to see it so that the avg team could compete - i.e. 10 or less). The major teams could then compete nationally for ToY and could also compete for regional ToY honors in any region in which they compete enough. Conceivably, a really good team might win the National ToY and maybe one or more regional ToYs.

DawgPhan
02-10-2012, 11:20 AM
Let's say a deadline is set for delcaring. You miss it. What happens? Are you instantly put in one of the races or out completely?



if you miss the sign up deadline, you miss out. That isnt that hard.


If I declare Baby TOY, am I limited to the number of contests I can cook, or just the number that count? Can I declare Baby TOY and cook 35 contests? Is that what the guy who cooked 7 was really expecting? I'm betting I could pull 5 GC's and RGC's in 35 contests. Most cooks could when you cook that much.
I dont know if there will be a limit on the number of contests that you can cook. This isnt my proposal. Maybe you should ask candy. However I believe that making it so that you can only count contests for 1 series and making the prize for the baby TOY much less than the regular TOY would eliminate most of this type of stuff.



If I declare TOY and something happens with my job, my family, or myself, but I cooked 6-8 solid contests, am I not able to be considered part of Baby TOY? I'm assuming your answer is no.
correct. Like you said, there is some luck involved in TOY.


There's a lot of manual effort that goes into keep that TOY list today. Keeping two and having to track declarations could be challenging.
KCBS's data problems are their own.


OH!!!! Can I have two teams? A TOY team and a Baby TOY team? Afterall, TOY is not tracked by head cook, but by team! Forget all of my points above. I just found the loophole! :thumb:You didn't, but thanks for playing. If you want to create 2 teams and cook in both the Baby and regular TOY, you could, but you couldnt cook the same contest as 2 teams with the same head cook per standard KCBS rules. And points earned wouldn't apply to both series. So you would need to decide when applying to a contest if that contest was going to be a baby or regular contest by which team name you put down.

I just dont think that there would be too many teams trying to compete in both the baby and regular TOY. You might, to prove a point, but seems silly to spend that much effort winning a t-ball trophy when you are good enough to play in the show.

TooSaucedToPork
02-10-2012, 11:30 AM
So what people are saying is develop a regional TOY that can be won by the same 30-40 teams (out of 5000 teams that competed last year)

So one or more of these regionals could be won by teams that do 30 contests a year...and they can win the TOY also

All you have done is created another award for the 1% of the teams (40 out of 5000) that are financially able enough to compete in multiple contests...

So what have you given the other 99% of KCBS teams? Nothing.

A small cap limit on contests will let the little guys have something they can shoot for, and be recognized for.

Its a great concept to let smaller teams shoot for the stars...

RangerJ
02-10-2012, 11:43 AM
I'd be in!

Take Sams' out of the equation and I'd still have to find 4 additional KCBS competitions to go to in some state other than Texas as we only have one here annually.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
02-10-2012, 12:23 PM
Let's say a deadline is set for delcaring. You miss it. What happens? Are you instantly put in one of the races or out completely?

You make "this year" and "next year" sound so easy. There's a ton of luck that goes into this in addition to the skill. Teams don't finish in the same position year to year. Many who thought they would never chase TOY points find themselves in a top 10 position and start to find a way to cook more. Many teams will tell you it is hard to repeat the same success for many reasons. I'm sure TrueBud had no idea they'd earn so many 1st place rib finishes. In October, they were top 10, but not 1st in Rib TOY. They cooked everywhere the last 3 months trying to get to Rib TOY... and did. It ain't easy, folks. Teams will jump on planes or drive halfway across the country in October-December if they are having a good run, just to finish top 10 in a category.

If I declare Baby TOY, am I limited to the number of contests I can cook, or just the number that count? Can I declare Baby TOY and cook 35 contests? Is that what the guy who cooked 7 was really expecting? I'm betting I could pull 5 GC's and RGC's in 35 contests. Most cooks could when you cook that much.

If I declare TOY and something happens with my job, my family, or myself, but I cooked 6-8 solid contests, am I not able to be considered part of Baby TOY? I'm assuming your answer is no.

There's a lot of manual effort that goes into keep that TOY list today. Keeping two and having to track declarations could be challenging.

OH!!!! Can I have two teams? A TOY team and a Baby TOY team? Afterall, TOY is not tracked by head cook, but by team! Forget all of my points above. I just found the loophole! :thumb:

You could just make 10 completed comps the cut off. You do 11 and you are now in the Big TOY pool. That way you can get hot and jump to the big TOY if you need to. Tally the best 5 scores for the 10 comps. I'd say leave prize money out for the junior TOY. It would stop bigger teams cherry picking if bragging rights and trophy are all you get.

G$
02-10-2012, 12:42 PM
I agree with Coz. 5 contests isn't what TOY is about. KCBS should be encouraging teams to cook more contests, not less.

What about guys like me. We cook maybe 3 a year. A 5 contest toy might make me cook more.

Mike - CSBBBQ
02-10-2012, 12:52 PM
Not positive but how many comps Tuffy cooked the year he won (2007). I'm thinking 17 confident less than 20 with 6 or 7 GCs. It was under the old scoring system but it shows you don't have to cook 30. Just have to consistently cook good food and hit the right tables. Personally think 10 is too few for a TOY unless you are addressing a particular region. IMHO

Scottie
02-10-2012, 12:56 PM
What about guys like me. We cook maybe 3 a year. A 5 contest toy might make me cook more.


I do not see how a team that cooks 5 contests be representative of 'team of the year' status. Does that reflect the best cooks? I'd argue otherwise. Especially when there would probably be hundreds of ties. How do you determine them then? Coin flip? To determine a team of the year? This in no way is me trying to omit or slight the teams that cook 5. I only cooked 16 and finished high compared to others that cook twice as much. Am I pissed? Nope.

dhuffjr
02-10-2012, 01:01 PM
I would be happy with a simple filter for the rankings. Let me compare myself with teams that cook as often or infrequently as I do. Not everyone is retired or has the time/resources to compete 2-3 times a month. I'm hoping to do 4-5 next year like I always do but will definitely step up my game to 3 for sure :>)

G$
02-10-2012, 01:03 PM
I do not see how a team that cooks 5 contests be representative of 'team of the year' status. Does that reflect the best cooks? I'd argue otherwise. Especially when there would probably be hundreds of ties. How do you determine them then? Coin flip? To determine a team of the year? This in no way is me trying to omit or slight the teams that cook 5. I only cooked 16 and finished high compared to others that cook twice as much. Am I pissed? Nope.

But like you said above Scottie, if the goal is to get teams to cook more, it would. I am not sure how you can argue that ADDING a smaller Toy takes away from the other. We are talking about two right?

Mike - CSBBBQ
02-10-2012, 01:04 PM
I do not see how a team that cooks 5 contests be representative of 'team of the year' status. Does that reflect the best cooks? I'd argue otherwise. Especially when there would probably be hundreds of ties. How do you determine them then? Coin flip? To determine a team of the year? This in no way is me trying to omit or slight the teams that cook 5. I only cooked 16 and finished high compared to others that cook twice as much. Am I pissed? Nope.

Agree with you Scottie. Was fortunate last year in my first year of retirement to travel and compete. Will not do as many this year. Last year was a blast and made a bunch of new friends :wave: Hoping to cook decent and hit good tables in the comps we do cook.

Did you get the email for Swinetastic?

Alexa RnQ
02-10-2012, 01:05 PM
it shows you don't have to cook 30.
Heck, you just have to cook 10 -- and win them.

I would be happy with a simple filter for the rankings. Let me compare myself with teams that cook as often or infrequently as I do.
We have a winner!

Kit R
02-10-2012, 01:45 PM
I would be happy with a simple filter for the rankings. Let me compare myself with teams that cook as often or infrequently as I do. Not everyone is retired or has the time/resources to compete 2-3 times a month. I'm hoping to do 4-5 next year like I always do but will definitely step up my game to 3 for sure :>)

That's what I was trying to get at back on the other thread. I was real happy to win one, come pretty dang close on two more and have fun in ten comps last year (plus the bonus at the end of the year). That said, it would be interesting to see how other teams that cook the same amount of comps are doing. Until and unless I DO retire (yeah good luck with that) I'm happy to leave a TOY pursuit to others who have figured out a way to make that goal happen. Well, that and do as well as I can the ten or so times I'll go out in a year.

TooSaucedToPork
02-10-2012, 01:46 PM
What does it hurt to let the smaller teams have a contest of their own???

So you give an award to a small team that cooked 5 or less contests during the calendar year and did good...

has it hurt your prize money...no
has it hurt your team...no
has it hurt bbq...no

Answer - it hurts us larger competitors pride, thats it...the little guy gets a trophy and I don't...

Teams that compete over 10 a year are not the bulk of this organization...teams that compete less than 5 are. Why not give them their own award?

The only negative arguements on here have been from teams that cook more than 5 comps...

Please ya'll give a valid reason why this should not be done for the BACKBONE of this organization. For the 80% of teams that make up our prizepool, but rarely wins it.

Did ya'll read the 3 teams comments that cook less than 5 contests, chimed in to say that they would bump it up to 5 comps a year to compete for this...We all talk about promoting BBQ and increasing participation. When an idea that does this is put out there we shoot it down, and for what? Pride??

Dan - 3eyzbbq
02-10-2012, 01:54 PM
Heck, you just have to cook 10 -- and win them.



Please don't get Mike fired up. I'm the one that has to cook against him every friggin week :laugh:

JayAre
02-10-2012, 02:04 PM
Everybody gets a trophy!!

Scottie
02-10-2012, 02:45 PM
Lets make it like kids soccer and give everyone a trophy.

And it doesn't hurt my pride or feelings. I'm not going to finish in the top 10 and I've been fortunate to do that and cooked 25 contests. But I can shoot for the top 25 though and not have to cook 25 contests.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
02-10-2012, 02:53 PM
Please don't get Mike fired up. I'm the one that has to cook against him every friggin week :laugh:

now you know how I feel when I see your rig pull in!:pray:

TooSaucedToPork
02-10-2012, 03:04 PM
Lets make it like kids soccer and give everyone a trophy.

And it doesn't hurt my pride or feelings. I'm not going to finish in the top 10 and I've been fortunate to do that and cooked 25 contests. But I can shoot for the top 25 though and not have to cook 25 contests.


We cook more than 5 too, so I'm not in the running.
and I know I'm not going to be in the TOY running...

But its not kids soccer, 1 trophy for roughly 3500 teams to compete for...

If this program could get half of the below 5 contest teams to compete in 1-2 more contests that is a win for the sport.

And it costs us $150 for a trophy...

Win win in my book.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
02-10-2012, 03:08 PM
us little guys just have to face it, it shouldnt happen. it would be a nitemare to keep track of , people would cheat etc.. If you want to be in that race you really need to have the money and commitment, I personally like watching the standings and seeing the who's who..

Fat Woody
02-10-2012, 03:31 PM
As one of those guys who only gets to cook a handful of contests a year, I would like to see some alternative, be it TOY or something else.

I think an "Over/Under" approach might work; set the number of contests somewhere between 10 and 15 (12?) and take the best five results for Under and the best ten for Over. Heck, you could do three categories: 5-10, 11-20, 21+ if you wanted. Right now it seems the only way to win TOY is to cook 30+ contests a year and for those who do, their accomplishments should not be diminished. These teams are the some of the best ambassadors for BBQ & KCBS; the time, money and dedication they invest should be rewarded! The majority of prize money and accolades should go to them. So maybe if you want to compete in the "Under" class, you declare so at each KCBS contest and pony up a few extra dollars to the "Under" trophy fund.

I feel that for those of us who compete less for whatever reason (I happen to work weekends in the warmer months) there should be something to shoot for. While I enjoy competing whenever I can now, I would definitely compete more (or at least try to) if I had a shot at a title. I don't see how creating an "Under" class would be anything but a positive for competitive BBQ.

I don't think it would attract a lot of new teams. Frankly I didn't know (or care) that there was a TOY competition for several years, but as teams get a bit more serious about competing, I think most would try to extend their season to win a title. It doesn't have to be like Scouts or soccer where everyone gets a prize, we are talking about awarding ONE (maybe two?) additional TOY title or calling it something completely different. State or regional titles would be cool too as an option. Looking forward to the continued debate!

Q-Dat
02-10-2012, 03:39 PM
How about if we allow teams to cook as many contests as they want, but only use the scores from 15 or 20 of them towards T.O.Y. If you cook more than that you are allowed to submit your highest scores and leave out the lower ones. This could be a priviledge for the teams willing to cook more.

Then for the teams that cook less contests you could do the same thing, and only use the top 5 or 10 scores.

This will never happen, but as I typed this idea out the more I liked it! :cool:

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
02-10-2012, 03:43 PM
How about if we allow teams to cook as many contests as they want, but only use the scores from 15 or 20 of them towards T.O.Y. If you cook more than that you are allowed to submit your highest scores and leave out the lower ones. This could be a priviledge for the teams willing to cook more.

Then for the teams that cook less contests you could do the same thing, and only use the top 5 or 10 scores.

This will never happen, but as I typed this idea out the more I liked it! :cool:

That's how it works now.

boogiesnap
02-10-2012, 03:44 PM
just call it something else.

TOY is more than just how well you can cook, and the team that earns it deserves THAT title.

Todd Ras
02-10-2012, 03:59 PM
First, I’m a huge opponent of the “giving everyone a trophy” mentality. A participation award only breeds mediocrity. I just don’t see how that plays into this at all. If this was about giving out awards for DAL in categories then I see the point.

As a team who only cooks 5 contests a year I love the idea behind this. I know going into the season we won’t be competing for the TOY and that is OUR choice. We don’t blame anyone for that. We are a younger team who all have little kids. We choose not to do more contests and respect the sacrifice and skill it takes to compete for the TOY.

So, if we are stuck on the title of “TOY” why not make this a different thing all together like others have said. Maybe it could be called Class B Champion or Small Class Champion. We can leave TOY out of it all together. My question to you guys who do 15+ comps a year would be if there was a separate title for this that didn’t affect the TOY standings would that work? Would that diminish the accomplishment of TOY?

Even though we suck, I remember checking the rankings all the time after contests. We know we won’t be at the top, but we still check! It’s a little hard to find a true rating on how you’re doing overall when you’re up against teams competing 4 times as much as you. Great, I’m ranked 492nd in Brisket after 5 contest. I would rather know I’m ranked 44th out of 200 teams who have cooked 5 contests.

I think if they did a separate small division class champion it would help teams like ours and others judge how we’re doing and give us another chance to compete for a yearlong goal. That way we can still go toe-to-toe with the big guys at all the contests, but it would give us little teams something else to shoot for overall.

Slamdunkpro
02-10-2012, 04:01 PM
Please don't get Mike fired up. I'm the one that has to cook against him every friggin week :laugh:

now you know how I feel when I see your rig pull in!:pray:

Me too:cool:

TooSaucedToPork
02-10-2012, 04:03 PM
us little guys just have to face it, it shouldnt happen. it would be a nitemare to keep track of , people would cheat etc.. If you want to be in that race you really need to have the money and commitment, I personally like watching the standings and seeing the who's who..

The scores are already published and logged for every contest.
Imput them into a database program and hola! team rankings...

You just assign another simple bit of code to make a new column that lists every team that cooks below x number of contests.

The team at the top of the list wins.

Probably a bit more to it than that, but not much.


As far as a name...

KCBS Intermediate Champion -

i.e. middle of the road...not in skills but in competition. They are not backyard, but not TOY competitors yet...does this meet approval?

Q-Dat
02-10-2012, 04:24 PM
That's how it works now.

So as of right now, KCBS Team of the year is decided exactly the way I said it?

Because I was under the impression that it was a simple points total.

sitnfat
02-10-2012, 04:43 PM
I think instead of doing a series of 5 or less comps which there are tons of teams that dont cook so much and if you set those guidelines there will be a lot that make their 5 comps then you will have tons of ties. Why doesnt KCBS focus on establishing state championships. I cooked 6 contests my first year 10 last year in several differant states now if TN had a championship I would make a run at being state champion and cook primaral here.

Coz
02-10-2012, 05:18 PM
Again speaking for myself. I guess I dont have an idea to make something for those who cook less contests . We are one of the teams who cook 10 or less. But to me TOY means january to december coast to coast regardless of contests cooked. I would imagine on a good year we could give a dern good run in a 5 contest count but some how to me it just doesnt seem to be a TOY kinda effort. Perhaps some kinda regional deal?

G$
02-10-2012, 05:42 PM
If it was called the "BBQ Sprint" award, would that make everyone happy instead of "Team of the Year"?

The point wasn't to make it a "participation trophy", the point was to recognize the best teams that compete far less frequently than the true Team of the Year road warriors.

I don't get the enmity. (I do get the challenges related to how easy it would be to even pull off tracking one of these)

Rich Parker
02-10-2012, 05:55 PM
Is the current ToY program really made for the road warriors if it is only the top 10 comps?

Teams that cook 30+ comps a year are being penalized to use only their top 10.

drbbq
02-10-2012, 06:07 PM
Lets make it like kids soccer and give everyone a trophy.


I'm against both of these things for the same reason. Sometimes in life you have to accept that you aren't the winner and it's nobody's fault. Maybe the other kids(cooks) are better than you and maybe t's because their parents have the money for a private coach (or they can afford to cook 30 contests) but either way you don't get to be the champion if you didn't win and that's the way that the world goes around.

Q-Dat
02-10-2012, 06:20 PM
That's how it works now.

So as of right now, KCBS Team of the year is decided exactly the way I said it?

Because I was under the impression that it was a simple points total.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
02-10-2012, 07:07 PM
So as of right now, KCBS Team of the year is decided exactly the way I said it?

Because I was under the impression that it was a simple points total.

Best 10 scores no matter how many you cook drop the lowest scores.

Q-Dat
02-10-2012, 08:58 PM
Best 10 scores no matter how many you cook drop the lowest scores.

Haha wow! Ok so the great idea I had is whats already in place! I feel like a tool! :screwy:

Oh well I still have my idea of cooking chicken thighs in a pan of butter! I gotta get movin on that before someone else thinks of it! ;)

Fat Woody
02-11-2012, 08:53 AM
Is the current ToY program really made for the road warriors if it is only the top 10 comps?

Teams that cook 30+ comps a year are being penalized to use only their top 10.

I'm not sure I follow your logic RP; if I have a pool of 30 to pick from to make my 10 best, isn't that better than only having a pool of 10? I mean, isn't that why we cook more than six pieces of chicken for a comp, so we have more choices to make our best box? I don't see how that is a penalty, but then, I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer either!

I'm a little surprised at how much opposition there is from some of the more accomplished brethren to even discussing some alternative title or program for teams that will never contend for TOY. I understand that TOY is extremely difficult to achieve and nobody wants to dilute the TOY program here. I think the concept should be different from TOY altogether, using another name for the program if it is instituted by KCBS. Maybe what we're talking about is more like a Pro/Am division or something. I'm just thinking out loud here and this may not be what Candy had in mind at all, but why be so quick to throw the concept under the bus?

I seriously doubt that any of us part-timers have the illusion that we're the next QUAU, Pellet Envy, Dr. BBQ, etc., but according to the minutes from the last board meeting, over 14,000 teams cooked at KCBS comps last year. As stated previously, it seems like there might be a way to encourage the 98% that will never make a run at TOY to compete more without having to resort to handing out trophies for participation (I HATE that as much as anybody!). Most sports find a way to divide when they reach numbers that become unwieldy, and frankly who really cares who the 2011th ranked team is (well alright, I do, cuz it was us!)? Maybe a KCBS divisional system is needed, then you could even have a playoff scenario. Sounds like fun to me and it doesn't have to affect TOY. The objective should be to foster more participation in a way that does not detract from TOY and I think it can be done.

This seems to have really struck a nerve with some of you; I value the input from you guys that have been there and done it more than anyone, so can't we at least have a friendly discussion about some options?

TooSaucedToPork
02-11-2012, 09:22 AM
I'm against both of these things for the same reason. Sometimes in life you have to accept that you aren't the winner and it's nobody's fault. Maybe the other kids(cooks) are better than you and maybe t's because their parents have the money for a private coach (or they can afford to cook 30 contests) but either way you don't get to be the champion if you didn't win and that's the way that the world goes around.

Maybe you have an amazing kid (cook) who has a special needs child and can only cook a few contests a year, not due to private coaching (affording to cook 30 contests) but because they choose the love of their child over their love of BBQ...

I met one such cook last year...some of the best Q I have ever tasted, and I have tasted ALOT. He could do maybe 4 contests a year, thats it. This is the kind of person I think of when I think of this program.

No one has given a real valid reason to not do this program... It has just been opinions along the lines of "thats the way it is, deal with it"

Ford
02-11-2012, 09:26 AM
Is the current ToY program really made for the road warriors if it is only the top 10 comps?

Teams that cook 30+ comps a year are being penalized to use only their top 10.

In the FBA all contests count. And category results add into overall. You need to cook most to win but can cook 10-15 and win if you pull enough gc and first place calls.

Ford
02-11-2012, 09:31 AM
How about a playoff instead. 5 regions based on where you live. All gc's invited to regional, top 5 from regional invited to national. KCBS runs regionals and national and uses the current TOY money for prizes. Make it July 1 to June 30 for qualifying.

Apparently they already have regional info available based on population.

Mike - CSBBBQ
02-11-2012, 10:39 AM
Please don't get Mike fired up. I'm the one that has to cook against him every friggin week :laugh:


Dan, you Sal and Mike are toooo funny we gotta cook against you guys every week! Besides our Diva was pointing out you only need to have good results at 10 comps. Of course easier said than done.

Mike - CSBBBQ
02-11-2012, 10:42 AM
How about a playoff instead. 5 regions based on where you live. All gc's invited to regional, top 5 from regional invited to national. KCBS runs regionals and national and uses the current TOY money for prizes. Make it July 1 to June 30 for qualifying.

Apparently they already have regional info available based on population.


We are going to regional reps aren't we? Sounds like an idea to be explored Ford. Maybe an additional deal in additiona to Sam's and current TOY.

Rich Parker
02-11-2012, 11:35 AM
I'm not sure I follow your logic RP; if I have a pool of 30 to pick from to make my 10 best, isn't that better than only having a pool of 10? I mean, isn't that why we cook more than six pieces of chicken for a comp, so we have more choices to make our best box? I don't see how that is a penalty, but then, I'm not the sharpest pencil in the drawer either!

I'm a little surprised at how much opposition there is from some of the more accomplished brethren to even discussing some alternative title or program for teams that will never contend for TOY. I understand that TOY is extremely difficult to achieve and nobody wants to dilute the TOY program here. I think the concept should be different from TOY altogether, using another name for the program if it is instituted by KCBS. Maybe what we're talking about is more like a Pro/Am division or something. I'm just thinking out loud here and this may not be what Candy had in mind at all, but why be so quick to throw the concept under the bus?

I seriously doubt that any of us part-timers have the illusion that we're the next QUAU, Pellet Envy, Dr. BBQ, etc., but according to the minutes from the last board meeting, over 14,000 teams cooked at KCBS comps last year. As stated previously, it seems like there might be a way to encourage the 98% that will never make a run at TOY to compete more without having to resort to handing out trophies for participation (I HATE that as much as anybody!). Most sports find a way to divide when they reach numbers that become unwieldy, and frankly who really cares who the 2011th ranked team is (well alright, I do, cuz it was us!)? Maybe a KCBS divisional system is needed, then you could even have a playoff scenario. Sounds like fun to me and it doesn't have to affect TOY. The objective should be to foster more participation in a way that does not detract from TOY and I think it can be done.

This seems to have really struck a nerve with some of you; I value the input from you guys that have been there and done it more than anyone, so can't we at least have a friendly discussion about some options?

Your correct that they use there top comps which is an advantage to just cooking 10 but the disadvantage is that they should be able to count comp 11 - 30 if it was a true points race.

Alexa RnQ
02-11-2012, 12:00 PM
And so it used to be, but then the cry went up that the "little teams" were getting hosed, so it was changed to best 10. Which I think is a very accessible midpoint across an incredibly broad range of endeavor.

drbbq
02-11-2012, 04:29 PM
I wonder how many golfers think there should be a US Open for guys who aren't able to make it to the real one? Surely there are plenty of low handicappers that could make it if they could play golf every week, but that's not how it works. Sorry but I just don't see the point of any kind of second tier TOY.

Brew-B-Q
02-11-2012, 04:51 PM
I think the whole concept of only counting 10 competitions is ridiculous. Does the Cy Young winner get judged on his 10 best starts? Every competition should count. Either as a true points race where it is cumulative, or as an average per competition (with a minimum # of at bats).

10 seems like a reasonable minimum.

If someone cooks 10 times and wins 4 GC, is that better or worse than someone that cooks 30 times and wins 6 GC? Under the current system, it would most likely benefit the person that cooks the most. And maybe that's the point...

So why not have a "Top Performer" award and an "Ironman" award. Former is an average of all comps with 10 comp minimum, latter is a true cumulative points race. If someone can win them both in the same year, there is no doubt who the best cook is.

Pappy Q
02-11-2012, 04:57 PM
Every sport has a "minor" or "developmental" league/division. Those leagues/divisions have winners and awards, this would seem to be the same concept.

Q-Dat
02-11-2012, 09:47 PM
Nascar uses the overall points total. However most of them are in the same number of races.

I'm a long way from ever doing 10+ KCBS events in a year, so for my own sake, I don't really care how they do it, but would you really want to be the team that won Team of the Year simply because you were able to cook more contests? What does that prove other than you have the time, and resources to travel more?



Edit: This is not a dig at the teams who cook 30+ contests a year. I know that all of the guys thatvare doing that are top notch cooks. If I had the freedom to do it, I probably would too!

Brew-B-Q
02-12-2012, 07:51 AM
How many bad teams cook 10+ contests per year? Consistently in the bottom third of every competition. Does being a good cook lead to cooking more frequently, or do you become a good cook by cooking frequently.

Capn Kev
02-12-2012, 08:14 AM
How many bad teams cook 10+ contests per year? Consistently in the bottom third of every competition. Does being a good cook lead to cooking more frequently, or do you become a good cook by cooking frequently.

From my perspective (I cook 10-12 contests a year)...

There are a ton of teams that cook 10 or so comps a year and are middle of the pack, always. There are also a lot of teams that cook that same amount, that can come out and beat any team on any given day. Their resources to cook more than 10 comps a year may be limited, and therefore they cannot (and may not want to) aspire to TOY level.

Frankly, I do not see the need to change the TOY program to meet the needs of the "10-a-year" competition teams. As mentioned, I do 10-12 a year, and if I do well I have some opportunities for recognition via the American Royal invitational, or (if really lucky) the Jack Daniel's Invitational.

That's just my 2 cents

Kevin

RangerJ
02-12-2012, 05:54 PM
Lets make it like kids soccer and give everyone a trophy.


Not sure what soccer league this is, but surely not the ones my kids played in.

If they give me a chance to compete for some lesser title I will until I have the time and resources to do 10 KCBS per year.

If not, I'll keep cooking and having fun. After all, it's only BBQ.

TooSaucedToPork
02-12-2012, 08:06 PM
I saw the US Open and NASCAR used as a reference

The US Open is 1 of the big four golf tournaments, much like we have The Royal, the Jack, MIM, and the Texas Rodeo in BBQ

The US Open is just 1 contest the the USGA organizes...It would be the Jack Invitational of golf as it brings in winners of different golf divisions, much like the winner of MIM, MBN, KCBS...etc are invited to the Jack

The USGA organization runs 10 Championships under its umbrella. The US Amateur Championship, the Seniors Championship, the Junior Amateur, and the Public Links are 4 of the 10 different divisions within the USGA...

So applying KCBS to this model, TOY would actually be the PGA's Player of the Year Award, BUT, the PGA runs 3 different divisions inside of its organization...including:

The Nationwide Tour is the developmental tour for the U.S.-based PGA Tour, and features professional golfers who have either failed to score well enough at that level's Qualifying School (the main tour's qualifying tournament, popularly referred to as "Q-School") to earn their PGA Tour card, or who have done so but then failed to win enough money to stay at that level. Those who are on the top 25 of the money list at year's end are given PGA Tour memberships for the next season.

So Golf does have a program much like the one we are discussing here.

You have these types of awards in almost every organization:

The Grammys, ACM'S, CMA's, etc. awards "Best Radio Station of the Year" according to market size...
small, mid, large market or...
1-5 contests a year, 6-10 contests a year, 10+ contests a year...

ALL Major US sports added together have fewer than 5% of the number of teams that KCBS has...

NASCAR has 38
Baseball has 30
Football has 32
Basketball has 30
Hockey has 30
Soccer has 20

We have an organization of over 5000 teams...

And all we do in KCBS is a Team of the Year award, that is always won by teams that can cook over 20 contests a year.

Sounds ALOT like the "GOOD OLE BOYS CLUB" that I have seen many of you preach against.

So why not "Amateur Champion" if you enter 1-5 contests
and "Intermediate Champion" if you enter 6-10 contests

And of course the PRESTIGIOUS, COVETED, ULTRA-EXCLUSIVE Team of the Year - 10+ contests

This would include the entire KCBS organization (not just the rich kids), and its not an "everybody gets an award" like kindergarten...only 3 awards are given out of 5000 teams, and it doesn't demean the TOY in any way.

SHBBQ
02-12-2012, 10:55 PM
I would love to see an actual average of of all contests cooked with a minimum of 10 to qualify. if u only cook 10 you have no margin of error as it stands right now, where as you can tank 20 and cook good in 10 of 30 and still win TOY. what makes the team that nails it 33% of the time better than a team who nails it 100% of the time? that being said, the guys that compete for TOY every year, never only nail it 33% of the time! but my thought would, in theory, even things out a little.

Now I consider myself on a "little team" who can compete with the big boys. I know the "big teams" were "little teams" once. so we will work my butt off, pay our dues, try to grow in every way possible, so 20 years from now, we will be considered a "big team" at which point we will not care what system is put in front of us, we're just gonna cook, and love every minute of it!

82's BBQ
02-13-2012, 01:50 AM
I chuckled when I saw this post because my wife and I were discussing this very same idea a few days ago. My thinking was take the top 100 teams from the year before and have them compete against each other as a "tour", much like NASCAR. Each state can host an event and thereby requires each team to have to compete in a different region, with different styles/tastes. The rest of the teams continue to compete in the same events that we are used to competing in. If we are good enough to place in the top 100 then we would get the honor to compete on the "tour".

kihrer
02-13-2012, 08:22 AM
Since most small teams most likely cook within the same region, why not have a regional ToY for the five regions? So Small Team BBQ could compete in say Region 5, and his top 5 contests would count toward Region 5 ToY. Big Team BBQ, on the other hand, could compete in Region 5's ToY using his top 5 contests in that region and may also compete in Region 4's ToY using his top 5 results in that region - and so on and so on for any other region that Big Team BBQ competes in. In addition to the regions, Big Team BBQ would compete for National ToY in the same manner he does today.

With this system, In all likelihood, the best teams will still take the regional ToY honors but it gives us a chance to see if some of the small teams are actually competitive with the big guys over more than just one cook. It also lets a small team, that doesn't compete out of his region, know how he compares against others within the region.

This method wouldn't hand out trophies to anyone other than the best cooks within a region and the best cook nationally. I think it encourages small teams to compete at least 5 times within their region and maybe even more. For the big teams, it gives you an opportunity to win even more. For those teams that place say 3rd or 4th in the current ToY, you may be able to claim bragging rights for your region with a first place trophy and prize money.

One other thing this might do is take the 30 plus cooks a year team and spread them out over more regions. Someone may want to go for the grand slam and try to win all five regions plus the National ToY!

Scottie
02-13-2012, 02:40 PM
Don't we already have a championship for teams that cook a few? It's called Sams Club Series. Only takes 3 contests to be the best. No confusion and everyone can play. Then those that only cook 3 contests can get there shot... To me everything else is just the same as NCAA college football.

sitnfat
02-13-2012, 02:47 PM
A team that is only cooking a couple contests a year is not going to Bentonville.

Scottie
02-13-2012, 09:15 PM
There were 7 teams that cooked less than 10 contests in Bentonville. RC cooked 10 last year. So I'd argue against that point.

Slamdunkpro
02-13-2012, 10:10 PM
Since most small teams most likely cook within the same region, why not have a regional ToY for the five regions?
We (MABA) already have a ToY and I believe NEBS and the FBA have them as well.

Rich Parker
02-13-2012, 10:20 PM
We (MABA) already have a ToY and I believe NEBS and the FBA have them as well.

Great Lakes BBQ Association has their own ToY program. You only need 3 comps to give it a run. :)

Capn Kev
02-13-2012, 10:30 PM
The RMBBQA has it's own TOY contest too. You have to cook at least 6 comps to qualify for the RMBBQA Cup. If you cook more, they take your best 6 scores (and award prizes in each category). They also have a "shot glass" division for those that cook less than 6. In that case, they take the best 3 contests out of the 3-5 that you cook.

HoDeDo
02-14-2012, 09:28 AM
One other thing we can't forget here.... The events in question are not run or organized by KCBS. And most have something they are raising money for.... There is not an organizer that will turn away your money to make his event more successful. so Let's play this out one step further.... Todd declares for Baby Toy, and competes in events with ToY players.... if the points dont count... Let's say Todd does better than Team X.... Team X places 2nd or 3rd to him at every event... If Todd's points dont count, team X could be a larger contender in the Overall ToY, as a 2nd or 3 place finisher... because 3rd becomes 1st... And I can still enter whatever I want, because KCBS is just doing the Judging -- they do not have any say over who an organizer lets in to compete.

I did all the travel a couple of years ago when we decided to try to win ToY, and ended up 5th. There is no way I could sustain that travel year in and year out. but it was fun once. It was interesting Dawg, that you changed criteria -- at first it was 10 or less... and then it was, once you are in the top Ten of Baby ToY, you have to move up.... Well how does that work, if I only compete in 10 or less events for points... now you are saying I dont get to compete in a series unless I want to spend $1000's more and move up to 25+ events a year.... What if I am perfectly content winning the series that only counts 10 events? I thought it was based on how many you compete in.

Let's say a deadline is set for delcaring. You miss it. What happens? Are you instantly put in one of the races or out completely?

You make "this year" and "next year" sound so easy. There's a ton of luck that goes into this in addition to the skill. Teams don't finish in the same position year to year. Many who thought they would never chase TOY points find themselves in a top 10 position and start to find a way to cook more. Many teams will tell you it is hard to repeat the same success for many reasons. I'm sure TrueBud had no idea they'd earn so many 1st place rib finishes. In October, they were top 10, but not 1st in Rib TOY. They cooked everywhere the last 3 months trying to get to Rib TOY... and did. It ain't easy, folks. Teams will jump on planes or drive halfway across the country in October-December if they are having a good run, just to finish top 10 in a category.

If I declare Baby TOY, am I limited to the number of contests I can cook, or just the number that count? Can I declare Baby TOY and cook 35 contests? Is that what the guy who cooked 7 was really expecting? I'm betting I could pull 5 GC's and RGC's in 35 contests. Most cooks could when you cook that much.

If I declare TOY and something happens with my job, my family, or myself, but I cooked 6-8 solid contests, am I not able to be considered part of Baby TOY? I'm assuming your answer is no.

There's a lot of manual effort that goes into keep that TOY list today. Keeping two and having to track declarations could be challenging.

OH!!!! Can I have two teams? A TOY team and a Baby TOY team? Afterall, TOY is not tracked by head cook, but by team! Forget all of my points above. I just found the loophole! :thumb:

HoDeDo
02-14-2012, 09:40 AM
if you miss the sign up deadline, you miss out. That isnt that hard.

I dont know if there will be a limit on the number of contests that you can cook. This isnt my proposal. Maybe you should ask candy. However I believe that making it so that you can only count contests for 1 series and making the prize for the baby TOY much less than the regular TOY would eliminate most of this type of stuff.

correct. Like you said, there is some luck involved in TOY.

KCBS's data problems are their own.

You didn't, but thanks for playing. If you want to create 2 teams and cook in both the Baby and regular TOY, you could, but you couldnt cook the same contest as 2 teams with the same head cook per standard KCBS rules. And points earned wouldn't apply to both series. So you would need to decide when applying to a contest if that contest was going to be a baby or regular contest by which team name you put down.

I just dont think that there would be too many teams trying to compete in both the baby and regular TOY. You might, to prove a point, but seems silly to spend that much effort winning a t-ball trophy when you are good enough to play in the show.

Again, you are mixing criteria here... Why assume it is a T-Ball trophy... there are alot of GOOD teams, that due to time/travel constraints do not cook that many events a year. or like to stay local, because they dont have the wherewithall to travel. This is still a hobby... You're making a poor assumption that there wont be teams that are excellent in the "baby" ToY, simply because they dont cook enough events to be a contender in the big one... even if they could beat those top teams day in and day out.

Money, Vacation time available, Childrens activities, all could impact how a team chooses to compete in a given year. I will tell you right now, I am a competitor, any day of the week...but my girls take priority over me... if they devote thier time to soccer for example... that will kill alot of my weekends I might compete... so I might make a concious decision to go for a series that is smaller ( if one was available). Todd and his boys have Scouts, others have things... you lose a job, etc. The smaller series could be just that.... Smaller. I wouldnt assume it would be any less competitive or have a lower quality cook involved. 90% or more of us bankroll our own seasons. Now if there were sponsors in the upper series, for teams then that is different.... But we are no where near that national sponsorship type level yet. The "Product" isnt there. We need to look like pros, to be treated like pros. We dont have the game atthat level.... I like Scottie's point... Look at the Sam's club, several teams at Bentonville competed less than 10 times last year. They wouldnt be competing for a "T-Ball" trophy...

DawgPhan
02-14-2012, 09:50 AM
Again, you are mixing criteria here... Why assume it is a T-Ball trophy... there are alot of GOOD teams, that due to time/travel constraints do not cook that many events a year. or like to stay local, because they dont have the wherewithall to travel. This is still a hobby... You're making a poor assumption that there wont be teams that are excellent in the "baby" ToY, simply because they dont cook enough events to be a contender in the big one... even if they could beat those top teams day in and day out.

Money, Vacation time available, Childrens activities, all could impact how a team chooses to compete in a given year. I will tell you right now, I am a competitor, any day of the week...but my girls take priority over me... if they devote thier time to soccer for example... that will kill alot of my weekends I might compete... so I might make a concious decision to go for a series that is smaller ( if one was available). Todd and his boys have Scouts, others have things... you lose a job, etc. The smaller series could be just that.... Smaller. I wouldnt assume it would be any less competitive or have a lower quality cook involved. 90% or more of us bankroll our own seasons. Now if there were sponsors in the upper series, for teams then that is different.... But we are no where near that national sponsorship type level yet. The "Product" isnt there. We need to look like pros, to be treated like pros. We dont have the game atthat level.... I like Scottie's point... Look at the Sam's club, several teams at Bentonville competed less than 10 times last year. They wouldnt be competing for a "T-Ball" trophy...


You removed all the context from what I said. Thanks.

Secondly, nearly every detractor in this thread has mentioned t-ball, little kids soccer, or giving a trophy to everyone. I didnt coin the t-ball mentality, I was just playing along with it.

Further more, my t-ball comment was made in the context of someone attempting to manage 2 teams for the purpose of gaming the system to compete for both the baby and regular TOY.

d. Where am I mixing criteria?

YankeeBBQ
02-14-2012, 10:01 AM
I think the whole concept of only counting 10 competitions is ridiculous. Does the Cy Young winner get judged on his 10 best starts? Every competition should count. Either as a true points race where it is cumulative, or as an average per competition (with a minimum # of at bats).


The number of wins a pitcher has doesn't decide who wins the Cy Young award. It's decided by a panel of 16 baseball writers and can be somewhat of a popularity contest. And if you think about it, it is decided on the pitchers "best starts".

The Patriots would have been the league champs in 2007 if that was just decided on number of wins or points scored.

YankeeBBQ
02-14-2012, 10:05 AM
Sorry but I just don't see the point of any kind of second tier TOY.

Well the point is to get more teams involved in the points chase. To make TOY a benefit for all KCBS teams and not just the guys that can go out 30 weekends a year, who happen to be a small minority. The second tier is not meant to take anything away from the current TOY system (that includes money).

YankeeBBQ
02-14-2012, 10:13 AM
Baseball has division champs, league champs and world series champ.
Hockey has division champs, conference champs and stanley cup champ. They're system is based on points not wins in the regular season.

Alexa RnQ
02-14-2012, 10:18 AM
Baseball has division champs, league champs and world series champ.
Hockey has division champs, conference champs and stanley cup champ. They're system is based on points not wins in the regular season.
These examples have some similarities to BBQ, but some differences also. No doubt it's an advantage to have a much bigger segment of teams in the running for divisions, with the excitement that generates as well as the impetus to compete more.

However, the sports leagues examples also involve the basic idea that the teams can travel, and that's one limiting factor for most BBQ teams, particularly in a sluggish economy.

Does that bring us back to factoring in a "batting average" of sorts?

82's BBQ
02-14-2012, 12:19 PM
Baseball has division champs, league champs and world series champ.
Hockey has division champs, conference champs and stanley cup champ. They're system is based on points not wins in the regular season.

This isn't that bad of an idea. GC/RC in a qualifying event are eligible for a State championship entry (from the state that your team is registered in), (5) regional championships (top 3 from each state championship) and a national championship (top 3 from each regional).

roksmith
02-14-2012, 12:39 PM
A team that is only cooking a couple contests a year is not going to Bentonville.

Why not?
We cook 4 or 5 contests per year and if hadn't had a poor cook in Maryland, we would have been there.

If a team only cooks a handful of contests per year and isn't good enough to make the field at Bentonville, should they really even be considered for a TOY type of award?

TooSaucedToPork
02-14-2012, 01:16 PM
Lets start by throwing the term "TOY" out of the conversation. TOY is an honor that should not be confused with State TOY or Regional TOY...it should just be KCBS Team of the Year...period

If you get into state by state champions, the KCBS is going to have to hire a person JUST to keep everything organized.

Regional I can see, but that still lets the Big Dogs sweep the regionals and does nothing for the 80% of teams that don't travel far from their home.

I say combine the ideas we have all been talking about.

In each of the 5 regions you have 3 divisions. The divisions are based on how many TOTAL KCBS contests a team enters during the year. Not just in the region, but in the organization

Amateur - 1-5 Contests
Intermidiate - 6-10 Contests
Senior/Pro/Competitor series - 11+ contests

The TOY stays the same as it is a KCBS organization wide, non-regional award.

Amateur is best 4 out of 5
Intermidiate is best 8 out of 10
Competitor is best 10 all year

Points are tallied among the 5 regions and a regional winner is crowned in each division. You can cook as many contests as you want, and you will move into the different divisions based on the number of total KCBS contests cooked.

You then have 5 Region Champs in 3 divisions:

Region 1 -5 Amateur Division Champion
Region 1 -5 Intermidate Division Champion
Region 1 -5 Competitor Division Champion

You then take the 5 regions and look at the points. Out of the 5 winning teams in each region, a KCBS Division Champion is crowned.

KCBS Amateur Division Champion
KCBS Intermidate Division Champion
KCBS Competitor Division Champion

You can even make some money for the KCBS organization with sponsorships for the individual awards... ie.

The series could be sponsored by Cattlemans and be the Cattleman's Cup, etc.

I know I will get flamed for it but I don't care...this model leaves the TOY alone while introducing a way to give EVERY team in BBQ a way to compete with teams just like theirs on an even playing field. It brings a larger competitive dynamic to the sport that we have not seen before.

txschutte
02-14-2012, 08:40 PM
I say "NO" to a lower level TOY.

I jumped in with both feet this year. I don't want some soft hearted soccer trophy because I only can cook less than 10 comps. So what. I would be going against those local guys that wanna party for a few contests.

I decided to run with the big dogs for a reason, TO BECOME A BIG DOG!!

However, I wouldn't be against a Rookie of the Year Award for first time KCBS cooks. If I kick butt my first year and achieve ROY, maybe I should step up to more contests to work on TOY.

Q-Dat
02-14-2012, 10:11 PM
NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!


Do I need to type it again? Is there anyone left who does not underatand this? I hate the whole concept of a participation trophy! That is NOT what is being suggested here! Nobody is handing anyone anything here! You would still have to work and cook your tail off to beat all of the other people that cook between 5 and 10 comps a year! And lets face it. Just about every comp has someone in it that has T.O.Y. somewhere on their radar, so if you win a KCBS sanctioned event, you most likely will beat at least one well known team. Does that make you a better team than them? No, but it who is to say thats not potentially the best team out there? If they see nothing within their reach, they may never make the leap into cooking more.

This is something that WILL get more people to cook more contests! When more people cook prize money goes up! When prize money goes up the "Big Dogs" who are competing get a chance to win more money to cover their expenses for all of that traveling that it takes to compete for T.O.Y.

This can be beneficial for EVERYBODY!!!!!

I may get my first ever flaming on this forum, but oh well. I don't intend to get under anyone's skin with this, but a bunch of folks(all really great folks that I admire) are shooting this idea down without giving any better reason than "sucks to be you if your life intereferes with cooking contests"

Rant over, I'm going to my room!

82's BBQ
02-15-2012, 12:06 AM
Here is my question for those that are against this idea, are you going to cook less if this is implemented?

SHBBQ
02-15-2012, 07:36 AM
I say "NO" to a lower level TOY.

I jumped in with both feet this year. I don't want some soft hearted soccer trophy because I only can cook less than 10 comps. So what. I would be going against those local guys that wanna party for a few contests.

I decided to run with the big dogs for a reason, TO BECOME A BIG DOG!!

However, I wouldn't be against a Rookie of the Year Award for first time KCBS cooks. If I kick butt my first year and achieve ROY, maybe I should step up to more contests to work on TOY.

"I decided to run with the big dogs for a reason, TO BECOME A BIG DOG!!" <--- best quote of the thread so far!

RangerJ
02-15-2012, 07:54 AM
I say "NO" to a lower level TOY.

I jumped in with both feet this year. I don't want some soft hearted soccer trophy because I only can cook less than 10 comps. So what. I would be going against those local guys that wanna party for a few contests.

I decided to run with the big dogs for a reason, TO BECOME A BIG DOG!!

However, I wouldn't be against a Rookie of the Year Award for first time KCBS cooks. If I kick butt my first year and achieve ROY, maybe I should step up to more contests to work on TOY.

Yes, because again, lifes curve balls and financial or geograhpical contraints have nothing to do with how many cooks one does, thus relegating some of us to "local guys that want to party for a few contests".

Speaking of curve balls, just how many cooks would it take to qualify for ROY if it existed?

Brew-B-Q
02-15-2012, 08:04 AM
This thread just keeps going in circles. The more I think about it, I say just leave the concept of a two tier awards system alone. Too much drama with people confusing it as a participation award or as a threat to the top tier award.

The fact is, though, without all of the field filler teams like myself that only cook a handful of contests each year, the "big dogs" wouldn't have many people to play with every weekend.

Rather than see more TOY awards, I'm in favor of more tournament style events such as Sam's.

Scottie
02-15-2012, 08:16 AM
Rather than see more TOY awards, I'm in favor of more tournament style events such as Sam's.


I agree. End of year TOY cash awards could add a whole new twists on a end of year contest. I felt this since they announced they were doing it.

I am one of those against a second tier. I am not wanting to hold anyone down because they don't cook 25+ contests a year either, as some have alluded. I now cook around 15 contests. Does that make a team a big dog? I'd rather my record speak, not how many contests I do. Will I ever compete for TOY? Nope. Do I feel I am slighted? Nope. I have an opportunity to finish a category in top 20 for TOY standings. That is more than enough reward for me and incentive.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
02-15-2012, 08:30 AM
one thing I may have missed, does cooking 30 contest automatically make you a big dog?

In the mid-atlantic a team ..PA Midnite Smokers only cooks 6-8 (Im pretty sure) and I would put them up there with the best..and so would 3rd at the Jack last year. They are always up there in the standings. Could they compete in 30 , oh yea. probably just dont want to.

leave the TOY as it is.

G$
02-15-2012, 08:41 AM
I agree. End of year TOY cash awards could add a whole new twists on a end of year contest. I felt this since they announced they were doing it.

I am one of those against a second tier. I am not wanting to hold anyone down because they don't cook 25+ contests a year either, as some have alluded. I now cook around 15 contests. Does that make a team a big dog? I'd rather my record speak, not how many contests I do. Will I ever compete for TOY? Nope. Do I feel I am slighted? Nope. I have an opportunity to finish a category in top 20 for TOY standings. That is more than enough reward for me and incentive.

Do you understand how a person could think that one (Or more!) additional smaller volume point chases could be a good idea (and promote more competitors), and also not feel slighted that they don't exist?

Rather than see more TOY awards, I'm in favor of more tournament style events such as Sam's.

Nice idea.

Smokedelic
02-15-2012, 08:41 AM
one thing I may have missed, does cooking 30 contest automatically make you a big dog?
No...and I can prove it.:thumb:

Q-Dat
02-15-2012, 09:08 AM
Still waiting to hear how this would be harmful. People are dismissing the idea, but nobody has given a reason why this would be bad for KCBS.

And I'm open to hearing a reason. But just saying you don't like it is not a reason.

nukenight
02-15-2012, 10:48 AM
I need to ask this question, "Do we really need a Team of the Year?". The TOY is nice, but it is more an endurance race to see who gets the most points. Maybe we need to take a step back and really see if we need an award that everyone gripes about but few of us are in the running to win. Maybe we need to reward Grand Champions. In other words, recognize cooks who get their first Grand, 5th Grand, 10th, and so forth. Develop a system where we reward everyone who has excellence in BBQ by winning a contest, not just the 20 or so cooks in the Team of the Year chase. Develop a hall of fame concept where every year cooks are nominated and elected. If you really want to go after Excellence in BBQ, this is the avenue to go down. You could also reward new cooks who do well in their first season on the circuit. By the way cooks, 2/3 of KCBS members are judges. They don't get any recognition. Judges pay money to do their thing and get grief for it. I think we need to recognize judges who do a good job. If you have a team of the year, you should have a judge of the year. KCBS wants judges to be better and more consistent. Well, they need to reward those people who do that! I think we need to seriously re-consider the usefulness of a team of the year as it is currently configured. I do not want a participation award either. I want something meaningful. But I also want something meaningful for more people, judges included!

SHBBQ
02-15-2012, 08:56 PM
No...and I can prove it.:thumb:

now taking the lead for best quote so far!!!! :clap:

Pappy Q
02-16-2012, 03:57 PM
My opinion (not that anyone really cares) is that the current ToY is a very flawed system. Being able to cook 20+ contest but only have the best 10 count is ridiculous. Also the less than 10 really doesn't make sense to me. To me a true ToY is take your total points for the year divided by the number of contest you did for a per contest average. That puts everyone on an equal playing field. Of course the ones who "chase" the ToY won't like it because it takes their advantage away.

Alexa RnQ
02-16-2012, 04:37 PM
^^ The shift to a "batting average" is good, with a couple of caveats:

It would have to be worked through a system of assigned values to placements in a contest, rather than straight points total, in order to overcome the discrepancy in average scores between different regions; and

In some instances, it would encourage a particular team to cook less, not more. If a team comes hot out of the gate with three GCs in a row, wouldn't the temptation be there to hang it up for the season while they've got an untarnished batting average? A team on a hot streak will cook regardless, but if there's a late-season slump, tell me it wouldn't cross a head cook's mind that they don't need to drag their average down.

I think the issue of assigned values rather than straight points totals is a much more pressing point, as the latter probably won't have much impact anywhere other than the head game.

Perhaps the answer would be to require a minimum (say 10) number of contests, but continue with the current practice of taking the 10 best scores over the course of a season.