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BBQ_MAFIA
02-04-2012, 04:11 PM
What is the KCBS rule on this:

I got asked the following question and didn't know the answer and I am not
a judge.

Question:

If KCBS judging is blind. Can your team compete while another family
member judges? IE: (Wife, Son, Brother, or, Father)

I haven't been in this situation nor do I plan on it as for me it feels wrong.
At the same time I wasn't able to answer the question based on the official
rules. So can somebody let me know what the official rule is.

Alexa RnQ
02-04-2012, 05:14 PM
Our son just became a CBJ. I'd feel queasy about competing in the same venue where he was judging. However, I don't know the specific rule, and I'd like to now that this has come up.

What if a boyfriend is competing while his girlfriend is judging? No documented family relationship there to enforce, but the same appearance of impropriety. At the very least, there's a familiarity with food product/flavor profile that an otherwise unrelated judge would not have.

I've seen the discussion dismissed by saying that the likelihood of one judge getting the related party's food is minimal and normally wouldn't occur in more than one category, if then, but that's not a distinct ruling. I don't think it's a dumb question, I just think most of us don't have the occasion to ask it.

Butcher BBQ
02-04-2012, 05:15 PM
Yes it can be done. As long as the one judging has not been in the cooking site the day of the judging. I got a RGC last year when the GC's Father and the cooks spouse was judging. It was all legal cause they both stayed in a hotel Friday night.

Rich Parker
02-04-2012, 05:30 PM
I don't think it would be a problem. I doubt I could pick out my own box in a field of 25.

Yes it can be done. As long as the one judging has not been in the cooking site the day of the judging. I got a RGC last year when the GC's Father and the cooks spouse was judging. It was all legal cause they both stayed in a hotel Friday night.

Must have been a Holiday Inn Express.

smoke-n-my-i's
02-04-2012, 05:39 PM
points well made...

I help out another team quite often, and table captained at a couple of events where he cooked. I know what his boxes look like, and what the profile is.... can I tell you if any of his boxes came across my table... NO... I saw several that could have been, but know way to tell for sure.... so I don't see a problem with it, and I think KCBS knows that as well. And the rules to do say that the judges can not be with the teams the day of judging....

boogiesnap
02-04-2012, 08:20 PM
legal? yes.

1 judge, at 1 table, has very very very little chance of enhancing the outcome of 1 specific team.

JD McGee
02-04-2012, 09:18 PM
Not permitted here in PNWBA land...and I would not do it for KCBS...I would know our flavor profile in a heartbeat...:becky:

JerryA
02-04-2012, 09:46 PM
I wouldn't want my wife judging... she's my worst critic!

G$
02-04-2012, 10:38 PM
For those saying it is a non issue, because it is unlikely to have an outcome on a contest ..... How much time do you spend arranging your ribs to eek out an extra digit on an appearance score.

It matters, rule or not. I know of no rule, but would suggest those considering judging where a family member is cooking to reconsider. Also, re read Phils treatise on Bretheren judging Bretheren.

boogiesnap
02-04-2012, 11:01 PM
For those saying it is a non issue, because it is unlikely to have an outcome on a contest ..... How much time do you spend arranging your ribs to eek out an extra digit on an appearance score.

It matters, rule or not. I know of no rule, but would suggest those considering judging where a family member is cooking to reconsider. Also, re read Phils treatise on Bretheren judging Bretheren.

agreed.

but, there has been much discussion on cheating and the odds that out of say 35 teams, YOUR box lands on YOUR accomplices table AND they can affect the overall outcome is quite slim.

moreover, do you think a judge that sits at many contests over the season in a particular area can't tell a specific high profile teams' entry and might score them up just cuz of "who they are"?

we have to go with it's blind or find another way.

TooSaucedToPork
02-05-2012, 01:52 AM
As long as the wife, brother, child, etc is out of your booth by 12:01 am on Saturday, no rules are being broken...

:evil:So to be evil and propose a scenario:evil:

3 guys are on a team
All 3 have wives that are certified judges
The wives have a couple brothers and a sister that are CBJ's
Friday night they all build turn in boxes...making a cute little design with the parsley in the upper right corner of the box that only they recognize
6 CBJ'S 6 different Tables as per the rules of relations sitting together.
Now you got 1 judge at each table that knows your entry by its secret design...

I know its not likely, but it only takes 1 diabolic BBQ mastermind to get your team 999 on at least 1 judge. If one of these evil implanted judges is sitting in the center next to a few newbies then...

How many times have you been judging and caught the newbie to your left or right checking out your card???

I know...WAY OUT THERE...but what makes it scary is it is possible.

Vince RnQ
02-05-2012, 04:14 AM
I have posed this question to both KCBS Reps and KCBS BoD members in the past and the answer I have been given is as follows:

If the Contest Rep is made aware that there is a Judge at the contest who has a high degree of familiarity with a competing teams product, the Contest Rep is to make sure that the competing team's boxes never hit the table where the Judge is sitting and that the competing team's boxes also never hit the same table twice. In a situation where there are only four tables, (24 teams or less at a contest) the Judge will not be allowed to eat but could serve as a Table Captain or in another position within the Judges Tent. This would apply to Judges who are family members and/or current or former team members.

Do I like that position statement? No. I think it is totally inappropriate that a familiar party be either a Judge or Table Captain as I believe it to be possible for someone to be biased or to create a bias in either position.

Do I think that position statement will change? No. After all, no one would ever cheat or do anything unethical in order to win a contest or gain entry into an invitational event, right?

Butcher BBQ
02-05-2012, 06:53 AM
I have posed this question to both KCBS Reps and KCBS BoD members in the past and the answer I have been given is as follows:

If the Contest Rep is made aware that there is a Judge at the contest who has a high degree of familiarity with a competing teams product, the Contest Rep is to make sure that the competing team's boxes never hit the table where the Judge is sitting and that the competing team's boxes also never hit the same table twice. In a situation where there are only four tables, (24 teams or less at a contest) the Judge will not be allowed to eat but could serve as a Table Captain or in another position within the Judges Tent. This would apply to Judges who are family members and/or current or former team members.

Do I like that position statement? No. I think it is totally inappropriate that a familiar party be either a Judge or Table Captain as I believe it to be possible for someone to be biased or to create a bias in either position.

Do I think that position statement will change? No. After all, no one would ever cheat or do anything unethical in order to win a contest or gain entry into an invitational event, right?

I still feel that the judge in question would still be able to make a difference. They don't have to recognize their own families box. If they judge all the rest on the lower side like 6 or 7's that will keep them out of the winners circle. Yes, they drop the lowest score but then you must keep a low score thats not the family member.

Basically I think if they are needed in the judges tent them table captain.

boogiesnap
02-05-2012, 07:04 AM
I still feel that the judge in question would still be able to make a difference. They don't have to recognize their own families box. If they judge all the rest on the lower side like 6 or 7's that will keep them out of the winners circle. Yes, they drop the lowest score but then you must keep a low score thats not the family member.

Basically I think if they are needed in the judges tent them table captain.

hadn't thought of it that way. fark.

still, hopefully someone would notice out of wack scores though. hopefully.

rcorun
02-05-2012, 07:49 AM
It is allowed but I dont agree with it. Just seems wrong. At one contest there was 3
people from different teams judging that day. that means 3 out of the 7 tables at that event had a team family member. Just Sayin

Alexa RnQ
02-05-2012, 09:22 AM
still, hopefully someone would notice out of wack scores though. hopefully.

http://www.divaherself.com/killingme.gif

ique
02-05-2012, 10:02 AM
I still feel that the judge in question would still be able to make a difference. They don't have to recognize their own families box. If they judge all the rest on the lower side like 6 or 7's that will keep them out of the winners circle. Yes, they drop the lowest score but then you must keep a low score thats not the family member.

Basically I think if they are needed in the judges tent them table captain.

Exactly.

Vince RnQ
02-05-2012, 02:50 PM
hadn't thought of it that way. fark.

still, hopefully someone would notice out of wack scores though. hopefully.

It doesn't matter if they notice the low scores or not. Once the scores are on the card they cannot be changed and the damage is done. Removing the judge at that point is like closing the gate on the corral after all the horses have run out.

As I said in my post above, remove the possibility for any kind of impropriety and don't let the familiar judge eat. I don't like the Table Captain idea much either but I think allowing it is at least a compromise I could live with.

Now, just to see how easy it would be to take advantage of this loophole, read the follow three posts from this thread: (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124993)

Post 35 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1932713&postcount=35)
Disclaimer...I'm not suggesting this as a solution. Just thought it'd be interesting to y'all.

One of my coworkers has been part of a very successful team for 30+ years. They were one of the teams at the very first American Royal contest in 1980 and have taken home many trophies and ribbons throughout their history. In my opinion, one of their biggest competitive advantages is that they have 12-15 members on their team and they insist that all of them be CBJs. Only 4-5 will actually compete on any given week, and the ones sitting out are encouraged to judge. They rotate folks in and out of cooking and judging constantly, which I believe helps them not only keep up their cooking skills but also keep their fingers on the pulse of what is working and what isn't behind the walls of the judging tent.

Just an interesting tidbit that I thought would be some good food for thought.


Post 40 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1934505&postcount=40)
Just curious, do the team members not cooking at the contest actually judge that same contest?


Post 43 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1934754&postcount=43)
I don't know if those guys do that, but I do know of at least one other very successful team here in the KC area that does. As long as the person judging is out of the cook site before midnight, it's perfectly legal.

mr dirts bbq
02-05-2012, 03:50 PM
I wouldn't want my wife judging... she's my worst critic!


LMFAO! I'm in the same boat!