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motoeric
01-09-2012, 06:55 PM
Hi,

With competition classes and the recent spate of competition books, what do you think is fair and reasonable information to share with your teammates?

If you're going to be using tips and recipes from a book by Superstar Team X, should everyone on your team buy that book?

Do you have any qualms about sharing everything that you learned at a class with the rest of your team?

Eric

scm1226
01-09-2012, 06:59 PM
If they are your team then I think its all open. It is a TEAM. If my either my father or I went to a cooking class I feel that he who tell me everything that he learned and vice versa. But again we are not a huge award winning team, we walk but not consistently .

MilitantSquatter
01-09-2012, 07:00 PM
Let's answer in an example..

If the legendary Sledneck was my teammate, and he took a class or got a free copy of a Mixon book to "review" for his silly BBQ Illuminati blog that no one reads and we showed up at a contest and he covered his bottles, and hid his notes and wouldn't share, I'd tell him to go fark himself and figure out how to get by the rest of the contest on his own


:heh:

JD McGee
01-09-2012, 07:07 PM
I share everything with my teammate...:becky:

Sylvie
01-09-2012, 07:08 PM
Good question. It is a team and you are working for a common goal to win for the team. Info should be shared with teammates.

Ford
01-09-2012, 08:17 PM
Books can be borrowed from the library for free so tell anybody. Class, well if you did everything exactly like in the class maybe not but if you took some techniques and modified them to your style, cooker,etc the sure tell everybody. I've taken 5 classes over the years and taken things from each. I invite people to cook with me and they see everything I do if they get there before noon friday, stay half sober and they get up early enough Saturday. I'm glad to help newer cooks out.

Sledneck
01-09-2012, 08:25 PM
Let's answer in an example..

If the legendary Sledneck was my teammate, and he took a class or got a free copy of a Mixon book to "review" for his silly BBQ Illuminati blog that no one reads and we showed up at a contest and he covered his bottles, and hid his notes and wouldn't share, I'd tell him to go fark himself and figure out how to get by the rest of the contest on his own


:heh:
If the shoe was on the other foot i would drop your chicken. oops i just remembered i already done that :becky:

Lake Dogs
01-09-2012, 08:26 PM
When you get right down to it, very little is truly proprietary information. Coveted techniques kept secret do not constitute proprietary, especially when most of those (if not all of them) have been published and taught by many books and classes LONG before Al Gore invented the internet.

deepsouth
01-09-2012, 09:27 PM
there is no "i" in team.

Crash
01-10-2012, 12:38 AM
As for books, I've only read Startin' the Fire by George w/ WATG? I recommended it to our old teammates, but hell if I was going to loan them the autographed copy.

Sharing class techniques with teammates becomes a slippier slope in my opinion. Yes, we've shared what we've learned in classes, but only with teammates. Did I feel slightly guilty about it? Yes.

As for sharing class info with non-teammates. Never.

CivilWarBBQ
01-10-2012, 12:58 AM
If you are a member of a true team, this question wouldn't even be asked.

I suppose if you work with a group of people who come together at cookoffs for financial or resource purposes you might feel differently. There are five members of our team, (four are cooks) and what we do is a group effort. Keeping secrets would dilute the strength of the team and negate the ability to back each other up when someone can't make it to a show.

dmprantz
01-10-2012, 01:04 AM
What do you consider a teamate? Some one who helps with the competition process, or some one who is only along because he has the RV or wants to chip in on and drink the beer? If it's the latter, I see no need to share information because they aren't involved. If it's the former, why wouldn't you share information? Isn't the point to do well as a team? Wouldn't it make the most sense to share information with other members of the team who compete so that you as a team do better? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

dmp

Crash
01-10-2012, 01:12 AM
IMO, a teammate is someone who shares the blood sweat and tears. They load in and load out and are there to cook or assist throughout the entire competition.

The seagulls that show up to sample and sit on a Saturday aren't teammates and get no proprietary info.

Smokenstein & monster crew
01-10-2012, 10:42 AM
If they are your team then I think its all open. It is a TEAM. If my either my father or I went to a cooking class I feel that he who tell me everything that he learned and vice versa. But again we are not a huge award winning team, we walk but not consistently .

Yeah, you walk....right to the jameson :shocked:

Smokenstein & monster crew
01-10-2012, 10:43 AM
If they are your team then I think its all open. It is a TEAM. If my either my father or I went to a cooking class I feel that he who tell me everything that he learned and vice versa. But again we are not a huge award winning team, we walk but not consistently .

crookidly that is

motoeric
01-10-2012, 11:09 AM
If you are a member of a true team, this question wouldn't even be asked.

I suppose if you work with a group of people who come together at cookoffs for financial or resource purposes you might feel differently. There are five members of our team, (four are cooks) and what we do is a group effort. Keeping secrets would dilute the strength of the team and negate the ability to back each other up when someone can't make it to a show.

You do realize that the other option is to buy a few more copies of the book, right?

Eric

caseydog
01-10-2012, 11:16 AM
Hi,

With competition classes and the recent spate of competition books, what do you think is fair and reasonable information to share with your teammates?

If you're going to be using tips and recipes from a book by Superstar Team X, should everyone on your team buy that book?

Do you have any qualms about sharing everything that you learned at a class with the rest of your team?

Eric

You can share books with whomever you want. You just can't make copies of them, or any parts of them. The same is true for Movie DVDs and music.

As long as no copies are made, you are legally able to share your books with other people.


CD

CMALANGA
01-10-2012, 11:23 AM
Well if you formed a team I would think there are no secrets. That being said, my teamate has a mohawk and is therfore automatically untrustworthy.

ModelMaker
01-10-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm of the persuasion if I buy the book I now own the info imparted to me from it.
If I own the book, I can let anyone I want read it and also own the info.
If I watch a tv show, that which I learn is mine to keep or share.
If I take your class, that what you sell to me as information is also mine to do with what I want.
Seems relatively simple to me...
Ed

early mornin' smokin'
01-10-2012, 12:23 PM
If I read something from a book, it's now my knowledge. I'll tell anyone who asks. As far as information sharing goes, we all do everything together as a team. No secrets are withheld, and if another team wants to know, just ask. I'll tell you exactly what I do, doesn't mean we'll have the same results.

roksmith
01-10-2012, 01:36 PM
..can't think of a reason why I wouldn't want everyone on my team knowing everything I do.

MoKanMeathead
01-10-2012, 01:52 PM
Last year a good friend of mine told me his "secret" marinade - one that he had been doing very well with. I made the decision NOT to tell the rest of my regular team what the exact recipie was because it was given to me in confidence. I made the marinade and brought it to the contest. I think the team "guessed" at what some of the ingredients were and we have since developed our own version of this marinade.

If I got something from a class I paid for or a book I would certainly share it with my team.

CivilWarBBQ
01-11-2012, 02:45 AM
You do realize that the other option is to buy a few more copies of the book, right?

Eric

Perhaps I misunderstood your question.

There is no book for what we do other than our own notes. I realize that others may choose to follow someone else's recipes, but we do our own thing. Of course we have purchased cookbooks and listened to the advice of fellow competitors over the years, but we view those ideas as inspiration rather than something to be replicated.

vafish
01-11-2012, 07:54 AM
I think it depends upon your team.

If you have 4 people that work together repeatedly at competitions it is important for every one on the team to know how to put together a winning entry.

Now if your neighbor Bob wants to come out once and help cook a comp I don't see him as a true team member and don't see any reason to share every ingredient with him.

Podge
01-11-2012, 08:13 AM
My team is my wife and I. She has no idea what my recipes/techniques are. Nor does she care. :)

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
01-11-2012, 08:18 AM
Is it any different than going to culinary school and teaching staff in your kitchen how you want your food to be prepared?

Lake Dogs
01-11-2012, 08:56 AM
If knowledge were never freely shared then just about every though in your head would be owned by someone else. We're now what, supposed to pay license-to-use-information fees to the author of a book? Or wait, we cant share that book with a friend? I know my wife and her friends are always swapping books. You'd really tick them off. Frankly, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!!!

Seriously though, knowledge is meant to be shared; however it was obtained.


... you dont have to read on, but we did a fun experiment a while back ...

An example of Early Mornin' Smokin's point, a few years back (this was in chili mind you) for fun we shared the exact and I mean EXACT chili recipe with all the members of our pod (formal group of chili cooks in one area). We all came together and cooked this exact recipe and turned it in for judging. Something as simple as chili. Let me tell you, all 22 entries were very different. Similar in many ways, but VERY different. The meat was all from different animals. The fat content was ever-so-slightly different. How the sodium was absorbed by the meats (using the exact same cut and quantity measured down the the fraction of an ounce) was very different. We used similar pots with similar heat ranges for similar times, yet they varied and so did the how the spices were cooked and related to one another. Some had very fresh paprika, others had older paprika, even though were were all using spanish paprika. Even though the recipe stated (and we stressed) exact measurements (meaning LEVEL teaspoons), each measuring device was slightly different and imparted slightly different results. etc. etc. etc.

Exact same recipe, cooked by 22 different cooks, 22 different results. It was a fun experiment. We didnt even agree on which went best with beer either!!!

Kit R
01-11-2012, 09:18 AM
If knowledge were never freely shared then just about every though in your head would be owned by someone else. We're now what, supposed to pay license-to-use-information fees to the author of a book? Or wait, we cant share that book with a friend? I know my wife and her friends are always swapping books. You'd really tick them off. Frankly, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!!!

Seriously though, knowledge is meant to be shared; however it was obtained.


... you dont have to read on, but we did a fun experiment a while back ...

An example of Early Mornin' Smokin's point, a few years back (this was in chili mind you) for fun we shared the exact and I mean EXACT chili recipe with all the members of our pod (formal group of chili cooks in one area). We all came together and cooked this exact recipe and turned it in for judging. Something as simple as chili. Let me tell you, all 22 entries were very different. Similar in many ways, but VERY different. The meat was all from different animals. The fat content was ever-so-slightly different. How the sodium was absorbed by the meats (using the exact same cut and quantity measured down the the fraction of an ounce) was very different. We used similar pots with similar heat ranges for similar times, yet they varied and so did the how the spices were cooked and related to one another. Some had very fresh paprika, others had older paprika, even though were were all using spanish paprika. Even though the recipe stated (and we stressed) exact measurements (meaning LEVEL teaspoons), each measuring device was slightly different and imparted slightly different results. etc. etc. etc.

Exact same recipe, cooked by 22 different cooks, 22 different results. It was a fun experiment. We didnt even agree on which went best with beer either!!!

They did a very similar experiement on Master Chef. Cat Cora cooked one of her signature fish dishes for the contestants, walking all of them through the recipe and process. Then all the contestants cooked the dish themselves, using ingredients form a common source. Not only did the contestants' dishes taste different (according to the show judges anyway) they looked very different. One contestant was given the opportunity for a one on one blind judging of his dish against Cat Cora's. One of the judges said something along the lines of "One of these is dishes is very good and one is superb". Not surprisingly Cat Cora's was the "superb" dish. It's like me cooking a few recipes from Thomas Keller's Ad Hoc cookbook on Thanksgiving. They were pretty good, but I'm sure if he cooked them they'd be superb.

Podge
01-11-2012, 09:51 AM
Well, if you take a class, spend $500-$750, plus expenses, take off work, and you choose to give away parts of that information for FREE... you're just ripping yourself off. Also, it's unfair to the person giving the class.

Lake Dogs
01-11-2012, 12:27 PM
I sure wish I had $0.10 for every time I instructed my kid on washing hands...

Seriously, most of us teach one another daily. Information or knowledge is usually shared openly. If someone wants to capitalize on their fame and produce a book, great. However, I haven't seen anything written in a book about barbecue that my great grandfather didn't already know and teach long before someone else published it in a book.

As to the classes, the actual teaching could be done through a book with a few pictures. There's a LOT more to the value of a class than the teaching. For example, it's really tough to ask a book a question. If the book answers, please step away from the pipe!!! In a class there's interaction, questions and answers, comradere, engagement that neither a book nor reading this online can nor will ever replace. And actually witnessing first hand HOW the knife is held, and at precisely what angle the cut is made and why. Books wont cut it.

Back to the original posters question, IMHO none of the information is secret and certainly not proprietary. Mind you, Scotty (as just an example Scotty) may do a few things to make his competition BBQ unique and special and he may not want to share those things (spices, techniques, etc) with us, but that doesn't make them proprietary. It's his secret for sure, but not proprietary.

I promise, someone 100 years ago and long since dead did these very things... For that matter, someone 100 years before that probably did them too, just not on a Stumps or a Bandera or Scottie's new baby...

caseydog
01-11-2012, 01:09 PM
As a professional photographer and graphic designer, I deal with copyright issues daily.

Without getting too deep into this subject, the author of a BBQ cookbook owns the string of words that make up that book. The consumer owns the physical book. How that applies in this particular situation is all that matters.

You can share that book with the other members of your team. They can take it home, read it, and pass it on the the next guy.

You can share knowledge and techniques you learned from that book with other members of your team.

You can NOT make copies of the book, or any pages in the book, to give to other members of your team.

You can NOT post a recipe from that book on a forum like this one, although you CAN share a technique, in your own words, that you learned in the book on the forum.

It is not an idea that is protected by copyright law. That is patent law. If you want to protect an idea, you must apply for and receive a patent.

In the case of my photography, every image I make is automatically protected by copyright. I own that image. What my customer pays for it the right to USE my images for a specific purpose and/or period of time. Any other use without my permission is a copyright violation.

However, if I photograph a 1933 Packard in the Grand Canyon, I can not prevent somebody else from taking a picture of a 1933 Packard in the Grand Canyon. I own my image, not the idea behind that image.

In the case of a book, sharing that book with other people is considered fair use. Likewise, if you learn something from reading a book, it is fair to share what you learned, in your own words, with other people.

Clear as mud? :becky:

CD

G$
01-11-2012, 01:20 PM
Maybe off topic...

Disclosure: I have not taken a BBQ cooking class, and have never asked someone for information from one (that I am aware of/remember). Given how rarely (and the reasons) that we compete, I doubt I will take one, but it is possible I would. I will say there is a certain cook that I keep telling to put on a class, but he ignores my suggestion :becky:

Anyway, our team is 3 guys, and sometimes only two of us can make it to any given contest. I am always one of those 2. The team is VERY consistent, in that other than us three, nobody has ever cooked with us. Point being, our team is CLEARLY defined for the purposes of this discussion, and is SMALL. We really do need to be on the same page.

I always think it is strange that (most) cooking classes offer a spouse discount for half price, but you can not bring a "team mate" instead. There is 0% chance my wife would ever cook a comp with me, but it sure would be nice if a team mate had the same direct guidance I received at the class. In reality, whether I told them "do this because Myron said so at his class" vs. "this is how I want to do this now" seems irrelevant, and furthermore it seems a little strange that they did not have the chance to pay to hea Myron say it in the first place but my wife does. She wouldn't liste to him anyway!

dmprantz
01-11-2012, 01:28 PM
Good description Casey! One thing I would like to add is that in addition to trademark, patent, and copyright, there is also the concept of a trade secret. Trade secrets enjoy some protection from state laws, but no federal protection. Honestly, not being an IP lawyer I don't know all the ins and outs of them, but in general, I think the stuff of competition classes falls under trade secret rather than patent, and an important question to answer: Do any competition classes have you sign NDAs?

dmp

Kit R
01-12-2012, 10:01 AM
Good description Casey! One thing I would like to add is that in addition to trademark, patent, and copyright, there is also the concept of a trade secret. Trade secrets enjoy some protection from state laws, but no federal protection. Honestly, not being an IP lawyer I don't know all the ins and outs of them, but in general, I think the stuff of competition classes falls under trade secret rather than patent, and an important question to answer: Do any competition classes have you sign NDAs?

dmp

I've never had that happen, although there have been prohibititons or restrictions on photography or recording during the class. In the first class I took the instructor told the participants that once they left the class he didn't really care what they did with what they learned. If they wanted to keep the information close, share with immediate team members or spill to everyone they knew, that was up to them. The implication being that the wider they disseminated what they learned the less the potential value. As I remember he also said something like if someone could outscore him in a competiitton using his techniques that was OK with him but he was confident enough in his own experience gained over many years that he wasn't too worried.

As for myself, I keep my own techniques, as well as what I've learned from others, pretty close hold. Aside from my other team maber (AKA my wife) I've only had two friends see my entire comp preparation routine. One isn't a competitor, so it doesn't really register with him, and the other is someone who is contemplating getting into the BBQ competitions as an occasional participant in our team.