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mobow
11-29-2011, 04:07 PM
Agenda for tomorrow looks interesting.

Scottie
11-29-2011, 04:46 PM
I guess the British BBQ Society isnt part of the International Initiative? :becky:
I look forward to hearing the meeting.

motoeric
11-29-2011, 05:01 PM
Do you have a link to the agenda or could you post it here?

Thanks,

Eric

Pig Headed
11-29-2011, 05:10 PM
http://kcbs.us/news.php?id=434

ThomEmery
11-29-2011, 05:16 PM
BOARD AGENDA - SPECIAL MEETING November 20, 2011

November 29, 2011

Following is the agenda for a special meeting of the Board of Directors to be held on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 beginning at 7:00 central time.


KANSAS CITY BARBEQUE SOCIETY

Board of Directors Special Meeting

November 30, 2011



AGENDA





1. Potential rule 2 violation



2. International Initiative concerns



3. Clarification of board member meeting reimbursement -- date to start



4. Cease and desist letter to British BBQ Society



5. Garry Howard proposal (tentative)



6. ToY registry of head cooks



7. Christmas holiday topics regarding staff, dinner and KC meeting



8. Approval of first three Sam's Club Series contests


LOL Scottie

motoeric
11-29-2011, 05:16 PM
They are probably using rules that are deemed to be (by KCBS) too similar to the KCBS rules.

They've sent out a number of cease and desist letters in the past.

Eric

ThomEmery
11-29-2011, 05:18 PM
or maybe they heard Ray was well liked there ;0)

quarters69
11-29-2011, 05:25 PM
Does #8 mean that SAMs club is having a competition next year.

ThomEmery
11-29-2011, 05:30 PM
Yes Sams is back

White Dog BBQ
11-29-2011, 05:39 PM
Yes Sams is back

That's great news -- I really enjoyed it this year, and look forward to competing next year. Hopefully they make better accommodations for the New England teams!

quarters69
11-29-2011, 06:01 PM
Yes Sams is back

That's great. Anybody got details yet??

boogiesnap
11-29-2011, 06:20 PM
what's rule #2? and who violated it?

Sledneck
11-29-2011, 06:38 PM
Did the british come about as a result of this post http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1853311&postcount=79

Can you do a cease and desist to a different country?

drbbq
11-29-2011, 06:52 PM
The agenda seems a little light to me :) It would be nice to know a little more about some of these issues. I just signed up to listen for the first time. Should be fun!

Scottie
11-29-2011, 07:20 PM
Did the british come about as a result of this post http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1853311&postcount=79

Can you do a cease and desist to a different country?


Id say yes. And it would be really hard to enforce..

Slamdunkpro
11-29-2011, 07:30 PM
Did the british come about as a result of this post http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1853311&postcount=79

Can you do a cease and desist to a different country?
What a great way to promote international goodwill:crazy: This board can't be gone soon enough.

You can send them all the C&D letters you want, good luck going further.

CBQ
11-29-2011, 07:34 PM
Did the british come about as a result of this post http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1853311&postcount=79

Can you do a cease and desist to a different country?

Yes, but it's am empty threat. That said, it might still be in the best interest of the British barbecue society to be tied into KCBS anyway.

BBQchef33
11-29-2011, 09:51 PM
Nothing like promoting BBQ with Cease and Desist. Seems to me these Cease and desist letters are in direct contradiction of their published charter.

unless of course you pay them for it.........then its ok.

Sorry.. just my view of the bridge..YMMV.

CivilWarBBQ
11-29-2011, 10:31 PM
Intellectual property is really strange stuff legally - it makes you do things you wouldn't ordinarily consider. For example, if five years from now another organization were to crop up in the USA using the KCBS scoring system, part of their legal defense could be to show that others used the proprietary material in the past and since KCBS failed to enforce their rights that they forfeited them.

Because of this, owners of copyrights, trademarks, etc. usually retain attorneys who specialize in this area, and send out lots of C&D letters basically as a CYA measure. At least that's how I understand it, anyway. I'm not a lawyer, so standard disclaimer applies.

Jeff_in_KC
11-29-2011, 11:10 PM
Rule number two is the old "one team cooking two contests on one day" rule. I have no idea who it was. I imagine that will be closed session? Maybe not. I have requested to listen in as well. I wonder if they've gathered that the membership is not happy with the way they've made decisions on the international initiative and are going to reconsider? One would like to think they've listened!

nukenight
11-29-2011, 11:41 PM
This is a special meeting and not the regular meeting. I have been fighting issue 8 with KCBS trying to keep a 2012 Sam's event from being scheduled on a weekend with a pre-existing 10 year old contest having more than 50 teams that less than 45 miles distant. I hope the BOD moves the Sam's event.

A cease and desist letter to our British friends doing BBQ? It seems they are biting the hand here. They want to reach out to the international BBQ community yet they send a nastygram? First of all its not binding and secondly it doesn't make us look like spoiled brats. The British might need to sign an agreement with KCBS. But don't cut them off at the pass, especially when you want to outreach!

BritToby
11-29-2011, 11:41 PM
The whole situation is nuts, this is a forum, and i could have corrected my earlier post because our rules are close but not identical to KCBS. I just find it rather amusing that when i got in touch with the KCBS office prior to starting the British BBQ Society 3 odd years ago they were not interested in the slightest and now we are moving into Europe, in our 4th year of competition, and fairly successful in the UK they want to stamp on us!

Our basic set of rules were used in a competition in the UK called the British BBQ Championships in 2009, a completely separate competition which one of your members Dr Sweetsmoke won, that rules set was given to me by the organiser who helped start up the society, provided scoring system etc.

Interesting times are ahead. :boxing:

nukenight
11-29-2011, 11:45 PM
Well put...... Stand firm! I for one am behind you. All us Americans are not like the KCBS Board. Anyone from Britain is welcome to come over to Louisiana and do a contest at any time!

Fat Freddy
11-30-2011, 12:05 AM
There have been many backyard competitions that advertise or list on their entry form "loosely based" on KCBS rules. I wonder if these contests get C&D letters?

BritToby
11-30-2011, 12:15 AM
There have been many backyard competitions that advertise or list on their entry form "loosely based" on KCBS rules. I wonder if these contests get C&D letters?

I think its because i asked the Jack to provide me with some additional international places to take the BBQ message into Europe and have a few teams earn their way rather than be invited, this is stepping on the toes of the international outreach team which in turn has made us a target, but thats life. Been through a lot worse and have very broad shoulders!

Dr_KY
11-30-2011, 12:16 AM
This is all getting very interesting.

Dr_KY
11-30-2011, 12:27 AM
I'm a very simple guy as my long time brothers and sisters know and would love to know what the real issue is without all the fluff. I just want to cook, have a productive business, enjoy Q and chill with friends both new and old not to mention travel the world bring the Q bug with me.


What's the REAL issue
What's the problem?
What's to gain?
What's to lose?
Who wants EXACTLY what from this?
Where is this going?
Why?
Why not?
Where exactly?
Why on this forum and not others?

BritToby
11-30-2011, 12:36 AM
Why on this forum and not others?

Not sure of KCBS's reasons behind this, i have made my intentions clear to the KCBS board, Jack Daniels and some of our teams.

I have raised this topic on the Society forum, but will not breach this forums rules and guidelines referring it to it (this isnt a link before someone points out the obvious:-P), and to be honest the teams that compete in the society circuit want to do just that and are not interested in politics or idle gossip.

BBQchef33
11-30-2011, 01:20 AM
we relaxed the "other forums" rules last year. Pointing to things of interest is ok.. we just dont want folks coming and advertising/promoting.

BritToby
11-30-2011, 02:07 AM
We have the same policy.

esselle
11-30-2011, 03:26 AM
Yes people this is the very same KCBS that want to create an international outreach team to assist and educate international teams with a view to us improving ourselves in order to be able to compete with you guys! So the way forward with that is......'don't use our rules at all in order to improve yourselves in the meantime, or else!' So for our competitions we have to follow a different set of rules and if we are lucky enough to qualify for the Jack we have to change completely! It's hard enough competing against you guys anyway. Give us a chance!

boogiesnap
11-30-2011, 03:39 AM
Rule number two is the old "one team cooking two contests on one day" rule. I have no idea who it was. I imagine that will be closed session? Maybe not. I have requested to listen in as well. I wonder if they've gathered that the membership is not happy with the way they've made decisions on the international initiative and are going to reconsider? One would like to think they've listened!

ah, i see. i wouldn't have expected a violation like that going all the way to the BOD meeting. figured it was from another set of rules. maybe for BOD members or such.

IMHO, if you can cook 2 SEPARATE contests in 1 day, more power to you. the weight of rule #2 lies in the restriction of 1 head cook entering multiple teams in the SAME contest.

Sledneck
11-30-2011, 04:05 AM
Do you guys not listen to Chad from whiskey Bents radio show??? Pfft some brethren y'all are . Here is a link to last tuesdays show http://m.blogtalkradio.com/bbqsuperstars/2011/11/23/whiskey-bent-in-the-pit
You can find out everything about the rule 2 deal

Cue's Your Daddy
11-30-2011, 06:27 AM
KCBS…Keep Chucking Bull Sh*t

Modify one of your rules and see if that changes things.

BritToby
11-30-2011, 06:35 AM
would rather they pursued it without me changing the rules, am very interested to see what their problem actually is, you never know it might not be anything to do with the rules, due to the differences i cannot see how it can be them, but alas who knows.

big brother smoke
11-30-2011, 06:51 AM
Can you post a link about this matter from your site?

boogiesnap
11-30-2011, 07:05 AM
Do you guys not listen to Chad from whiskey Bents radio show??? Pfft some brethren y'all are . Here is a link to last tuesdays show http://m.blogtalkradio.com/bbqsuperstars/2011/11/23/whiskey-bent-in-the-pit
You can find out everything about the rule 2 deal

tanks. @ work, can't hear sh*t.

will listen when i get home.

drbbq
11-30-2011, 07:39 AM
IMO this is just another example of the KCBS lack of leadership. The tail wags the dog and Carolyn runs it mostly in the back room.
Then when a problem comes up (somebody gets caught) there are no answers and the poop hits the fan.
I'd guess that a couple board members are trying to salvage their trip to Europe without actually committing to do anything specific. A couple others are mad because Toby said he uses their rules and instead of working together with each other, Toby, and our Executive Director they all have their own agenda we all look like fools. And now the ED is all quiet til it blows over.

Dr. BBQ- Knows where all the bodies are buried.

Jorge
11-30-2011, 08:03 AM
Wow! A lot of discussion.

I know enough about IP law, that I retain a professional in the field. Somebody nailed it earlier. KCBS is obligated to defend their intellectual property or risk losing the legal protection they currently have. There is little choice in the matter.

Toby, with all due respect you forced their hand at least once on this forum. When you stated clearly that the British BBQ Society had used KCBS rules in the past. I listened to your appearance on Greg Rempe's show and learned that you have apparently made some changes since that initial statement. If that's the case, and they are different enough to pass legal muster issue resolved.

There is another option open to KCBS, after sending the C&D which is almost mandatory. The rules and scoring system can be licensed. In some cases I believe that would be beneficial to all.

Edit: I can't slam the board on this issue. They were doing their due diligence to protect intellectual property as they are required to. It may not be pleasant, but it's necessary.

Slamdunkpro
11-30-2011, 08:35 AM
Contest rules aren't IP - if they were then every little league in every sport would be paying fees to the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc or risk C&D letters for their 100 yard football field or 90 foot base paths. The scoring software, yes. the actual weighting and arithmetic, no.

KCBS is pursuing a course of "Broad brush bullying" (a common practice in software, ie Microsoft vs Barns & Noble) where they attempt to claim anything remotely associated with their activity as their IP, then using their larger size and war chest to bully others into compliance with their view of what they think they deserve.

KCBS is going to step on the wrong toes sooner or later and actually end up in court - it won't be a happy ending.

Wow! A lot of discussion.

I know enough about IP law, that I retain a professional in the field. Somebody nailed it earlier. KCBS is obligated to defend their intellectual property or risk losing the legal protection they currently have. There is little choice in the matter.

Toby, with all due respect you forced their hand at least once on this forum. When you stated clearly that the British BBQ Society had used KCBS rules in the past. I listened to your appearance on Greg Rempe's show and learned that you have apparently made some changes since that initial statement. If that's the case, and they are different enough to pass legal muster issue resolved.

There is another option open to KCBS, after sending the C&D which is almost mandatory. The rules and scoring system can be licensed. In some cases I believe that would be beneficial to all.

Edit: I can't slam the board on this issue. They were doing their due diligence to protect intellectual property as they are required to. It may not be pleasant, but it's necessary.

BritToby
11-30-2011, 08:43 AM
Hi Jorge, thanks for the feedback. As mentioned before I didnt correct the post i made previously on this forum stating that our rules are identical which in hindsight I "could" have done. The whole situation is a real shame, we have used our rules for 3 years in 9 competitions. They are different enough without making amendments but really need to know whether KCBS are basing their thought process on hearsay, old rules, or the rules that we have actually used over the last 3 years.

For starters we score 1 - 10 and dont drop any scores. We dont number boxes when they are given to teams they are marked for the first time when they are handed in, our desserts and sauces have to be made onsite, pork can be seperated to name but a few.

The thing i find most frustrating is that I have always said publicly that our rules are similar, including to Carolyn when i was introduced to her at the American Royal in 2009 and numerous others over the years, this isnt new and has not been an issue until I made the decision to move into Europe.

Either way we will have to see what their thought process is and where this leads.

timzcardz
11-30-2011, 09:03 AM
I'm guessing that if you use fire to cook meat in a competition that they consider it an infringement on their rules. :shocked:

IMHO, in cases like this if they feel compelled to send a C&D letter, it should also be be accompanied by a royalty-free licensing agreement for signature. It isn't good PR to stomp down BBQ when you are a non-profit whose stated purpose it to promote it. But then what do I know? :roll:

Jorge
11-30-2011, 09:08 AM
Contest rules aren't IP - if they were then every little league in every sport would be paying fees to the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc or risk C&D letters for their 100 yard football field or 90 foot base paths. The scoring software, yes. the actual weighting and arithmetic, no.

KCBS is pursuing a course of "Broad brush bullying" (a common practice in software, ie Microsoft vs Barns & Noble) where they attempt to claim anything remotely associated with their activity as their IP, then using their larger size and war chest to bully others into compliance with their view of what they think they deserve.

KCBS is going to step on the wrong toes sooner or later and actually end up in court - it won't be a happy ending.

I have an opinion from a board certified IP attorney that doesn't agree with you.

I don't think KCBS needs to be pounding people into submission with the threat of litigation. I think we should be doing more to reach out to various regional associations and establishing beneficial relationships that serve the mission statement of KCBS and other groups. I think I sent you a proposal the other day via email, to reflect that.

nukenight
11-30-2011, 09:22 AM
Kansas City Bullying Society

Enough Said!

Jorge
11-30-2011, 09:30 AM
Hi Jorge, thanks for the feedback. As mentioned before I didnt correct the post i made previously on this forum stating that our rules are identical which in hindsight I "could" have done. The whole situation is a real shame, we have used our rules for 3 years in 9 competitions. They are different enough without making amendments but really need to know whether KCBS are basing their thought process on hearsay, old rules, or the rules that we have actually used over the last 3 years.

For starters we score 1 - 10 and dont drop any scores. We dont number boxes when they are given to teams they are marked for the first time when they are handed in, our desserts and sauces have to be made onsite, pork can be seperated to name but a few.

The thing i find most frustrating is that I have always said publicly that our rules are similar, including to Carolyn when i was introduced to her at the American Royal in 2009 and numerous others over the years, this isnt new and has not been an issue until I made the decision to move into Europe.

Either way we will have to see what their thought process is and where this leads.

If that's your case, I'd present that and more than likely resolve the situation.

Based on what I've read and heard from you, my observations are....

You need to be talking to Debbie Christian, privately. When you offer to turn your events over to KCBS, I can't take that seriously because I know that will NEVER happen. KCBS doesn't organize contests, it simply provides a service including rules and scoring. From a Yank in the Colonies it appears to me as if you are asking for preferential treatment for European teams. To my knowledge you don't have the contests to merit the additional entries that you are asking for. Explain the logic to teams here in the states that cook primarily in Kansas, Missouri, and Texas. In some cases each state will have as many contests on a weekend, as there are in Europe in a season.

I understand what you are trying to accomplish, and I understand that it's difficult. I just don't see it happening in all honesty, nor am I convinced that it should. In the end, this isn't a KCBS issue. The Jack and American Royal both draw champions from sanctioning organizations other than KCBS. IBCA, LSBS, and others. They manage to coexist here in the states. I see no reason for that to be impossible in Europe. Cooks will vote with their feet, and Euros.

If you want to help give teams there a leg up, approach someone like Adam Perry Lang and see if he'd be willing to do some classes. He understands Europe, has forgotten more about meat than most people will ever know, and has had success cooking competition BBQ here in the states. I've only met him twice, but we have many mutual friends that speak very highly of him.

That's my unsolicited advice and it's worth what you paid for it.

deepsouth
11-30-2011, 09:32 AM
attorneys love to send letters.

Slamdunkpro
11-30-2011, 09:39 AM
I have an opinion from a board certified IP attorney that doesn't agree with you.

That's what makes IP so interesting - what I posted was my board certified IP lawyer's opinion. Her comment was "I'd love to get this in front of a judge". Lawyers at 20 paces at dawn?:boxing::becky:

I don't think KCBS needs to be pounding people into submission with the threat of litigation. I think we should be doing more to reach out to various regional associations and establishing beneficial relationships that serve the mission statement of KCBS and other groups. I think I sent you a proposal the other day via email, to reflect that.
Agreed, the public image damage that's done every time they send out one of these specious C&D letters is greater than any potential "protection"

BritToby
11-30-2011, 09:45 AM
Hi Jorge

I am in talks with Debbie, she has referred the matter to Wayne at KCBS. I was accused of trying to own BBQ in the UK and just wanted to make the point that I am happy to pass it over, but they genuinely do not know what is involved over here and realise that there is no way they are going t take me up on it.

Far from asking for preferential treatment for the European teams i want to see all of them qualify, as things stand the British Team is the only one that does. American teams work too hard and invest alot of money to earn their place. To see some guys in Europe just turn up "annoys" them and quite rightly. i cannot stress my position on this strongly enough.

I know Adam and asked him about running a class for us last week, I will be moving forward no matter what happens in the coming weeks. I really appreciate the feedback.
Cheers
Toby

Jorge
11-30-2011, 09:46 AM
That's what makes IP so interesting - what I posted was my board certified IP lawyer's opinion. Her comment was "I'd love to get this in front of a judge". Lawyers at 20 paces at dawn?:boxing::becky:

I retained mine because he beat the crap out of that large company you referenced in Redmond, WA:becky: I like my chances:thumb:


Agreed, the public image damage that's done every time they send out one of these specious C&D letters is greater than any potential "protection"

If you get a chance, let me know what you think about the idea I sent you. I'd really like the benefit of your opinion.

Dr_KY
11-30-2011, 11:02 AM
I'm a very simple guy as my long time brothers and sisters know and would love to know what the real issue is without all the fluff. I just want to cook, have a productive business, enjoy Q and chill with friends both new and old not to mention travel the world bring the Q bug with me.




What's the REAL issue
What's the problem?
What's to gain?
What's to lose?
Who wants EXACTLY what from this?
Where is this going?
Why?
Why not?
Where exactly?

Anyone ?

I honestly trying to obtain an informed opinion on the issues so that I'm not speaking out of my backside due to being uninformed. Help

kihrer
11-30-2011, 11:08 AM
I'm a very simple guy as my long time brothers and sisters know and would love to know what the real issue is without all the fluff. I just want to cook, have a productive business, enjoy Q and chill with friends both new and old not to mention travel the world bring the Q bug with me.




What's the REAL issue It is usually money or power (sometimes pride)
What's the problem? Someone doesn't have the money or power they want
What's to gain? See above
What's to lose? See above

Who wants EXACTLY what from this?
Where is this going?
Why?
Why not?
Where exactly?

Anyone ?

I honestly trying to obtain an informed opinion on the issues so that I'm not speaking out of my backside due to being uninformed. Help

I am hopeful we learn a little more from the BoD meeting but my guess is all the real info will be in a closed session.

drbbq
11-30-2011, 11:30 AM
Lawyers at 20 paces at dawn?:boxing::becky:


And bill everybody by the hour.

YankeeBBQ
11-30-2011, 12:03 PM
There have been many backyard competitions that advertise or list on their entry form "loosely based" on KCBS rules. I wonder if these contests get C&D letters?

Yes some do

YankeeBBQ
11-30-2011, 12:06 PM
I have an opinion from a board certified IP attorney that doesn't agree with you.

I don't think KCBS needs to be pounding people into submission with the threat of litigation. I think we should be doing more to reach out to various regional associations and establishing beneficial relationships that serve the mission statement of KCBS and other groups. I think I sent you a proposal the other day via email, to reflect that.

I agree with Slamdunk about the arithmetic and weighting not being protected by IP laws. I also took this to an IP lawyer at one time. Of course I was asking for free advice at the time and you know what Free advice is worth LOL

Scottie
11-30-2011, 12:37 PM
I have an opinion from a board certified IP attorney that doesn't agree with you.

I don't think KCBS needs to be pounding people into submission with the threat of litigation. I think we should be doing more to reach out to various regional associations and establishing beneficial relationships that serve the mission statement of KCBS and other groups. I think I sent you a proposal the other day via email, to reflect that.


Sucks for Toby and his group, but i completely agree George. KCBS has to defend their IP. Just as the whole bruhaha with NEBS Grilling contests. Are there different avenues besides a C&D letter? Sure. But i do have to side with KCBS on this one.

My firm does all IP work for a gigantic hamburger fast good restaurant. They go after anyone that tries to use or tarnish their IP rights. I am not sure if they have lost one yet...

BritToby
11-30-2011, 12:50 PM
Not too worried to be honest, i have the teams best interests at heart, lets face it, it has probably cost me £100,000 + over the last 3 years to develop what we have, and its only because of a supportive family that I have been able to put everything on the line to achieve it.

I will not walk away from the circuit, and the teams that have invested heavily into our little circuit. To be honest we do not know what their Cease and Desist is all about, if its rules, I am not worried in the slightest, if its something else I will deal with it in the morning. Its coming up to 7pm so time for a pint, catch you all in the morning!
Cheers
Toby

kihrer
11-30-2011, 01:20 PM
My firm does all IP work for a gigantic hamburger fast good restaurant. They go after anyone that tries to use or tarnish their IP rights. I am not sure if they have lost one yet...


Ya think anyone will want to steal that rib recipe they have:becky:

Jorge
11-30-2011, 01:47 PM
I'm guessing that if you use fire to cook meat in a competition that they consider it an infringement on their rules. :shocked:

IMHO, in cases like this if they feel compelled to send a C&D letter, it should also be be accompanied by a royalty-free licensing agreement for signature. It isn't good PR to stomp down BBQ when you are a non-profit whose stated purpose it to promote it. But then what do I know? :roll:

You are pretty sharp, and history and your posts substantiate that.

If a C&D letter is needed, so be it because KCBS rarely has an option. I'd like to see KCBS work with other groups, but I think the idea of sending a licensing agreement to eliminate the issue in ALL cases is misguided.

Show me some group that isn't competing, and has similar goals and I'm fine with it. Show me a group that is in it for profit, or is inherently dysfunctional (insert mockery here) and I'll object. I'll support a case by case review, with the deciding factor(s) being the benefit to BBQ as a whole and potential liability/issues for KCBS. Based on what I know of other, regional, associations there are several that I'd support a licensing agreement with. I think the potential to promote BBQ and carry out the mission statement of KCBS would benefit from that. In some other cases, not so much.

Slamdunkpro
11-30-2011, 02:01 PM
Sucks for Toby and his group, but i completely agree George. KCBS has to defend their IP. Just as the whole bruhaha with NEBS Grilling contests. Are there different avenues besides a C&D letter? Sure. But i do have to side with KCBS on this one.

My firm does all IP work for a gigantic hamburger fast good restaurant. They go after anyone that tries to use or tarnish their IP rights. I am not sure if they have lost one yet...

There's a big difference between Patent / Trademark / Copyright infringement and the vague umbrella IP arguments that KCBS has put out.

QN
11-30-2011, 02:09 PM
Here's another example... anybody ever confuse kale and chicken?

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/2011/11/eat_more_kale_guy_pisses_off_c.php

"Eat More Kale" is way too close for comfort to their "Eat mor chikin" phrase. In a letter, a lawyer for Chick-fil-A said Muller-Moore's "eat more kale" message "is likely to cause confusion of the public and dilutes the distinctiveness of Chick-fil-A's intellectual property and diminishes its value.
Kale http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSG__bAQpeY6-9HKhzUSVne5QNhYMk0mR1maG160Sr_q2iJ55rbgg
Chicken http://www.backyardchickens.com/images/weekly/2011-11-28.jpg (http://www.backyardchickens.com/images/gallery/)

deepsouth
11-30-2011, 02:15 PM
Here's another example... anybody ever confuse kale and chicken?

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/2011/11/eat_more_kale_guy_pisses_off_c.php

"Eat More Kale" is way too close for comfort to their "Eat mor chikin" phrase. In a letter, a lawyer for Chick-fil-A said Muller-Moore's "eat more kale" message "is likely to cause confusion of the public and dilutes the distinctiveness of Chick-fil-A's intellectual property and diminishes its value.
Kale http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSG__bAQpeY6-9HKhzUSVne5QNhYMk0mR1maG160Sr_q2iJ55rbgg
Chicken http://www.backyardchickens.com/images/weekly/2011-11-28.jpg (http://www.backyardchickens.com/images/gallery/)

anyone who can't see the similarity there is blind and not looking for the truth. :crazy:

:kicksrock:

Jorge
11-30-2011, 02:26 PM
There's a big difference between Patent / Trademark / Copyright infringement and the vague umbrella IP arguments that KCBS has put out.

Your point being? That's a given.

I can count the C&D letters my attorney has sent in the last 10+ years on two hands. The cases litigated are fewer, and the cases won are 100%. Over the spread I've done a little better than break even. That's good enough for me because I never viewed litigation as a revenue stream. At the end of the day, it does cost me $ in terms of opportunity costs. I'll live with that, because it burns my butt to no end to have someone steal from me.

Just don't steal from me! I will litigate when needed to protect what I've produced. If it comes to my attention that someone has stolen code I've written I still, against advice of counsel, will approach them first and give them the opportunity to C&D. If they refuse, the fight is on and they can talk to my attorney. More often than not, legal fees consume any judgment that may be collected and in some cases there has been nothing to collect and the bills were mine. So be it.

Yeah, IP law can be nebulous. That doesn't negate the responsibility of the owner. It didn't create the game, I just play within the boundaries...and I DO play hard.

Slamdunkpro
11-30-2011, 03:11 PM
There's a big difference between Patent / Trademark / Copyright infringement and the vague umbrella IP arguments that KCBS has put out.

Your point being? That's a given.

I can count the C&D letters my attorney has sent in the last 10+ years on two hands. The cases litigated are fewer, and the cases won are 100%. Over the spread I've done a little better than break even. That's good enough for me because I never viewed litigation as a revenue stream. At the end of the day, it does cost me $ in terms of opportunity costs. I'll live with that, because it burns my butt to no end to have someone steal from me.

Just don't steal from me! I will litigate when needed to protect what I've produced. If it comes to my attention that someone has stolen code I've written I still, against advice of counsel, will approach them first and give them the opportunity to C&D. If they refuse, the fight is on and they can talk to my attorney. More often than not, legal fees consume any judgment that may be collected and in some cases there has been nothing to collect and the bills were mine. So be it.

Yeah, IP law can be nebulous. That doesn't negate the responsibility of the owner. It didn't create the game, I just play within the boundaries...and I DO play hard.

Oh come on, really? The point is, and to use your example. You C&D'd or litigated something that you had the undisputed IP rights to. You didn't (at least I hope you didn't) write a piece of code that generates a print stream to the windows print server then try to claim IP ownership of the MS print server via umbrella litigation on the basis that the print server is yours by the fact that your IP code uses it. (huh?:noidea:)

Back on point; KCBS clearly owns the KCBS CBJ program IP. Lift that in it's entirety or a major portion of it and a C&D letter should be forthcoming however KCBS does not own all things BBQ contest related. A couple of the KCBS C&D letters that I've seen text of are attempts to usurp common elements as KCBS IP. This is wrong and should stop. We'd all be better off if BBQ comps were treated more as "open source" vs for profit IP (and we won't get into the tax implications of that worm's nest.)

Enough, - who's up for margarita's? I'm buying:thumb:

Jorge
11-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Oh come on, really? The point is, and to use your example. You C&D'd or litigated something that you had the undisputed IP rights to. You didn't (at least I hope you didn't) write a piece of code that generates a print stream to the windows print server then try to claim IP ownership of the MS print server via umbrella litigation on the basis that the print server is yours by the fact that your IP code uses it. (huh?:noidea:)

Back on point; KCBS clearly owns the KCBS CBJ program IP. Lift that in it's entirety or a major portion of it and a C&D letter should be forthcoming however KCBS does not own all things BBQ contest related. A couple of the KCBS C&D letters that I've seen text of are attempts to usurp common elements as KCBS IP. This is wrong and should stop. We'd all be better off if BBQ comps were treated more as "open source" vs for profit IP (and we won't get into the tax implications of that worm's nest.)

Enough, - who's up for margarita's? I'm buying:thumb:

I don't know that we've seen the same letters, so can't comment. IF, and it's a big IF those elements were proprietary initially and KCBS didn't defend them, then it's open season or (source, using the same analogy).

I'll disagree on the open source model for multiple reasons, but that can be discussed over something less frivolous than a margarita down the road. Bring your stoic self to DFW and the beer and cheap tex-mex are on me. I'll send my wife to visit friends so we don't bore her.

Scottie
11-30-2011, 03:31 PM
There's a big difference between Patent / Trademark / Copyright infringement and the vague umbrella IP arguments that KCBS has put out.

It's copyrighted material. There is no denying that. I am pretty sure KCBS knows how to send out a C& D letter. the past enforcer was an attorney and they also have counsel. So to say they are a vague unbrella without knowing the contents or intentions of the letter would be wrong. Trademark would be the KCBS logo. I dont believe that KCBS is flexing their muscle over any patent matter on this matter. So I understand the differences and what this matter relates.

ThomEmery
11-30-2011, 06:03 PM
5. Garry Howard proposal (tentative)

What is Brother Garry proposing?

Jeff_in_KC
11-30-2011, 07:04 PM
And Harwell fails again... I was on the list that requested to listen in tonight and was told he would email me the listen in phone number and he failed to do so. Figures.

kihrer
11-30-2011, 07:38 PM
And Harwell fails again... I was on the list that requested to listen in tonight and was told he would email me the listen in phone number and he failed to do so. Figures.

Well I certainly hope they post this on the download site.

Rookie'48
11-30-2011, 08:06 PM
And Harwell fails again... I was on the list that requested to listen in tonight and was told he would email me the listen in phone number and he failed to do so. Figures.

Well I certainly hope they post this on the download site.

So why can't it be set up for any member to listen in? I'm sure that there's a way to do this where we could listen only and the audio could be cut off for closed sessions.

Leatherheadiowa
11-30-2011, 08:14 PM
I requested to listen in tonight as well. *I didn't hear from anyone either. *It drives me crazy to know that there are such simple means of conducting business and yet it remains a complicated mess.
Heck, today I attended a webinar hosted by a major pharmaceutical company. I got an invite in my email, I registered, a link was sent to me, today at noon I clicked, "Join Your Webinar", attended the webinar and went about my day. They had 600 people on the webinar I attended!
I hear transparency and member driven organization mentioned far to often, and this continues to happen?:crazy:

ssbbqguy
11-30-2011, 08:14 PM
The reason I remember being given was cost. It had to do with early registration and individual feeds rather than broad, open availability. Had no way to confirm and it was about a year ago. But I do wish it were easier to access for the mass audiance. Steve.

Leatherheadiowa
11-30-2011, 08:24 PM
The reason I remember being given was cost. It had to do with early registration and individual feeds rather than broad, open availability. Had no way to confirm and it was about a year ago. But I do wish it were easier to access for the mass audiance. Steve.

How about this thing called Go to Webinar. Very simple, very easy to use. Check it out, gotowebinar.com.
It's not rocket science, but nobody is asking for rocket science.

drbbq
11-30-2011, 08:37 PM
Yes I was able to listen tonight. Yikes!

Slamdunkpro
11-30-2011, 08:52 PM
Yes I was able to listen tonight. Yikes!
and?

drbbq
11-30-2011, 09:04 PM
I'm pretty sure I signed off on not talking about it but it was quite an experience.

ThomEmery
11-30-2011, 09:04 PM
Yikes hummmmmm

Jeff_in_KC
11-30-2011, 09:45 PM
I'm pretty sure I signed off on not talking about it but it was quite an experience.

Where are people getting that you can't talk about the board meeting? The form says you won't reproduce the meeting. It doesn't say anywhere you won't talk about it. :roll:

CBQ
11-30-2011, 10:00 PM
I wonder if KCBS will have a problem with jurisdiction here? They don't have a legal entity in the UK, do they? Also, what would they claim as damages? The license fees for 9 contests wouldn't make it out of small claims court.

I can see defending their rights in the US, but overseas makes it a whole lot more complicated.

esselle
12-01-2011, 03:51 AM
So how do we know what's been said at the meeting?

chicago jack
12-01-2011, 04:26 AM
So how do we know what's been said at the meeting?

ask a spiritualist to contact Marvin Gaye and you might just get to hear it through the grapevine...:confused:

trueque
12-01-2011, 06:14 AM
you can keep the Politics & Bureaucracy ... I just want to bbq!

kihrer
12-01-2011, 06:26 AM
They better post the meeting on the download page. If they allowed some non-board members to listen and not other then that is BS. It isn't up on the site yet but I will keep checking.

esselle
12-01-2011, 06:56 AM
you can keep the Politics & Bureaucracy ... I just want to bbq!
here here!:clap2:

ThomEmery
12-01-2011, 07:30 AM
They better post the meeting on the download page. If they allowed some non-board members to listen and not other then that is BS. It isn't up on the site yet but I will keep checking.

I am hopeful there is a explanation that does not involve underhanded activities
A high level of accountability is what can keep the processes honest
Just got to have access to do so
There is a question for candidates

Should meetings be open to any member interested in listening?

drbbq
12-01-2011, 08:25 AM
Where are people getting that you can't talk about the board meeting? The form says you won't reproduce the meeting. It doesn't say anywhere you won't talk about it. :roll:

OK I just read what I signed and you're right.

The BBBQS stuff was in Executive Session.

They spent a whole lot of time discussing the TOY thing and best I could tell there wasn't a resolution last night.

The International discussion was started but there seemed to be a violation of the rules maybe based on the insufficient agenda and a member speaking out of turn and it was all tabled. I have no clue what they planned to discuss and neither did most of the BOD members from what I could tell.

Jorge
12-01-2011, 08:41 AM
I am hopeful there is a explanation that does not involve underhanded activities
A high level of accountability is what can keep the processes honest
Just got to have access to do so
There is a question for candidates

Should meetings be open to any member interested in listening?

Yes, either at no cost or whatever is required to cover the cost without generating any revenue. Made available in the member section of the KCBS web site.

Jeff_in_KC
12-01-2011, 10:31 AM
OK I just read what I signed and you're right.

The BBBQS stuff was in Executive Session.

They spent a whole lot of time discussing the TOY thing and best I could tell there wasn't a resolution last night.

The International discussion was started but there seemed to be a violation of the rules maybe based on the insufficient agenda and a member speaking out of turn and it was all tabled. I have no clue what they planned to discuss and neither did most of the BOD members from what I could tell.

Soooo... it was a total waste of time, Ray? :crazy: Guess I didn't miss anything. Maybe I should thank Harwell. Why on earth would they make the BBBQS part of an executive session? Didn't they drag everything out in the open when they were hammering on NEBS?

kihrer
12-01-2011, 03:35 PM
They better post the meeting on the download page. If they allowed some non-board members to listen and not other then that is BS. It isn't up on the site yet but I will keep checking.

It is now posted for those who want to hear it.

BritToby
12-02-2011, 02:16 AM
Wow! Is all i can say. I will just have to wait for the cease and desist, that said, one of the board has proved on record that we have been dragged into this without all board members checking their facts first.

What a mess!

Dr_KY
12-02-2011, 10:09 AM
It is now posted for those who want to hear it.
Where can we hear it?

kihrer
12-02-2011, 10:15 AM
Where can we hear it?

If you have created an online account at kcbs.us you will go to resources and then downloads.

Iamarealbigdog
12-02-2011, 10:19 AM
WOW...:shock:


Coming from a Canadian side of the house, we run our association independently and follow our own rules. We have a KCBS style events and use the name for the lack of a better term. We also run a Memphis style events for whole hog and expanding into shoulder this year.

It's a fine line about IP and I like the NFL reference. We have the CFL in Canada but not as near interesting.

We would like closer ties to the KCBS, sanctioned events, certifying judges and other cost just do not make it viable to have administrators run up from the US. We need to be able to administer our own region.

Hopefully when it comes out what the problem is then we can find a solution.

Who knows what the solution is, and we just a bunch of frozen Canucks up here, chipping the ice off the grills....



Mike

BritToby
12-02-2011, 10:20 AM
its on the KCBS web site in the download section

Smoke Ring
12-02-2011, 02:06 PM
5. Garry Howard proposal (tentative)

What is Brother Garry proposing?

Our proposal was for the work required to import contest data from the new scoring program into the KCBS database.

Garry

ThomEmery
12-02-2011, 02:07 PM
Sounds good Garry

drbbq
12-02-2011, 02:50 PM
Our proposal was for the work required to import contest data from the new scoring program into the KCBS database.

Garry

Didn't you and I try to propose this about a hundred years ago?

Slamdunkpro
12-02-2011, 04:15 PM
It's copyrighted material. There is no denying that.

Only as an physical art form in the method which it is laid out. In other words taking the KCBS rules sheet, striking their logo and putting your own on it is actionable under US copyright law. Writing your own set of rules incorporating the same procedures and methodology of a BBQ contest (6 separate and identifiable portions, turn in's on the half hour, turn in's at 12, 12:30 1 and 2; 6 judges, chicken / beef / pork descriptions etc) is legal.

To quote the US Copyright office.
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an authorís expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

BBQchef33
12-02-2011, 04:33 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

AND THAT RIGHT THERE IS A SLAM DUNK.


:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

Scottie
12-02-2011, 04:42 PM
I do believe that their scoring and more specifically their weighted scoring is copyrightable material.

Slamdunkpro
12-02-2011, 04:58 PM
I do believe that their scoring and more specifically their weighted scoring is copyrightable material.

The software code, yes. The methodology of scoring and the arithmetic, no. Remember that copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. You can't copyright a process such scoring.

Smoke'n Ice
12-02-2011, 06:54 PM
The simple way around the weighting system is to use a true math formula of 1 7th, 2 7th and 4 7th. Some one a long time ago screwed up on rounding, hence the numbers we use today. You would acheive the same results but it could be done simply as a formula and not having to use a specific number.

boogiesnap
12-02-2011, 07:22 PM
Only as an physical art form in the method which it is laid out. In other words taking the KCBS rules sheet, striking their logo and putting your own on it is actionable under US copyright law. Writing your own set of rules incorporating the same procedures and methodology of a BBQ contest (6 separate and identifiable portions, turn in's on the half hour, turn in's at 12, 12:30 1 and 2; 6 judges, chicken / beef / pork descriptions etc) is legal.

To quote the US Copyright office.

mental note...don't fark with this guy^^^^.

White Dog BBQ
12-02-2011, 08:16 PM
Is it possible the C&D is not about the scoring system used by BBS, but to the repeated references to it being derived from the KCBS system? That could be an infringement of the KCBS trademark...

BritToby
12-02-2011, 11:25 PM
Is it possible the C&D is not about the scoring system used by BBS, but to the repeated references to it being derived from the KCBS system? That could be an infringement of the KCBS trademark...

If it is, the 3 months work i have done with them in the lead up to this debacle negates that issue.

Dale P
12-03-2011, 08:10 AM
They are McDonalds, we are McDowels. They have the golden arches, we have the golden arcs.
Sorry. Could not resist.
I hope that this can be resolved with the use of at least some common courtesy and sense. To me it makes sense for KCBS to help the British BBQ Society and helping would be a courtesy.

Smoke Ring
12-03-2011, 11:31 AM
Didn't you and I try to propose this about a hundred years ago?

Yep! You were there remember? :-)

Garry

Jeff_in_KC
12-03-2011, 12:41 PM
ah, i see. i wouldn't have expected a violation like that going all the way to the BOD meeting. figured it was from another set of rules. maybe for BOD members or such.

IMHO, if you can cook 2 SEPARATE contests in 1 day, more power to you. the weight of rule #2 lies in the restriction of 1 head cook entering multiple teams in the SAME contest.

Exactly... RULES COMMITTEE... we have one! Rules committee takes all of the facts and asks questions then determines if a violation occured and forwards their report and recommendation to the board. The board then reviews the report and approves or rejects the suggestion from the committee. They don't debate whether it actually happened or other possible punishments. They approve or deny what's been given to them by the committee! Problem here is it takes some of the authority away from the board itself and I'm not sure some egos would allow that to happen.

It's no different than our local planning and zoning commission and park board in town hashing out details of a new business request or a park facility improvement - we iron out the details and send it to the city council to approve or deny. This is all so danged simple that it's frustrating to no end that things cannot be fixed with some simple work!

"But Jeff", you say, "things aren't in the by-laws that way. We can't do those kind of things!" CHANGE THE BY-LAWS!!! If it's a logical solution that could come from a vote to change by-laws that would improve processes, improve transparency or stop ridiculous "discussions" at meetings, I have complete confidence the membership would vote to make the change.

Leatherheadiowa
12-03-2011, 01:11 PM
Exactly... RULES COMMITTEE... we have one! Rules committee takes all of the facts and asks questions then determines if a violation occured and forwards their report and recommendation to the board. The board then reviews the report and approves or rejects the suggestion from the committee. They don't debate whether it actually happened or other possible punishments. They approve or deny what's been given to them by the committee! Problem here is it takes some of the authority away from the board itself and I'm not sure some egos would allow that to happen.

It's no different than our local planning and zoning commission and park board in town hashing out details of a new business request or a park facility improvement - we iron out the details and send it to the city council to approve or deny. This is all so danged simple that it's frustrating to no end that things cannot be fixed with some simple work!

"But Jeff", you say, "things aren't in the by-laws that way. We can't do those kind of things!" CHANGE THE BY-LAWS!!! If it's a logical solution that could come from a vote to change by-laws that would improve processes, improve transparency or stop ridiculous "discussions" at meetings, I have complete confidence the membership would vote to make the change.
Jeff, your post couldn't have said it any better. When you use the committee correctly the entire process is most effective.
You are most likely used to the following Jeff:
Problem
Proposed solution
Committee review
Board Proposal
Public Comment
Committee recomendation
Board vote

This is fair, ethical, and practical and could be a model for KCBS. An agenda put out 48 hours prior to a meeting allows for very little review or input. I am not sure if there is any intention of keeping information buried but it sure isn't a good practice.

Jeff_in_KC
12-03-2011, 01:34 PM
How the hell does Don Harwell know how much Sheri Gray contributes to the Pellet Envy Team?

drbbq
12-03-2011, 03:03 PM
Yep! You were there remember? :-)

Garry

I know where all the bodies are buried :)

Smoke'n Ice
12-03-2011, 06:48 PM
Exactly... RULES COMMITTEE... we have one! Rules committee takes all of the facts and asks questions then determines if a violation occured and forwards their report and recommendation to the board. The board then reviews the report and approves or rejects the suggestion from the committee. They don't debate whether it actually happened or other possible punishments. They approve or deny what's been given to them by the committee! Problem here is it takes some of the authority away from the board itself and I'm not sure some egos would allow that to happen.

It's no different than our local planning and zoning commission and park board in town hashing out details of a new business request or a park facility improvement - we iron out the details and send it to the city council to approve or deny. This is all so danged simple that it's frustrating to no end that things cannot be fixed with some simple work!

"But Jeff", you say, "things aren't in the by-laws that way. We can't do those kind of things!" CHANGE THE BY-LAWS!!! If it's a logical solution that could come from a vote to change by-laws that would improve processes, improve transparency or stop ridiculous "discussions" at meetings, I have complete confidence the membership would vote to make the change.

Jeff, you must understand, the membership cannot change any thing relating to the bylaws. That authority was given to the BOD by a vote of the membership several ages ago. WE, THE MEMBERS, HAVE NO RIGHTS!!!

Kit R
12-04-2011, 08:32 AM
The software code, yes. The methodology of scoring and the arithmetic, no. Remember that copyright protects only the particular manner of an authorís expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. You can't copyright a process such scoring.

I got bored one night and wrote an Excel worksheet that emulates the KCBS scoring system. Then I plugged in my scores from a recent comp to see if I got the same results (I did). I hope I do not get any letters in the mail.....:-P

esselle
12-04-2011, 09:12 AM
I got bored one night and wrote an Excel worksheet that emulates the KCBS scoring system. Then I plugged in my scores from a recent comp to see if I got the same results (I did). I hope I do not get any letters in the mail.....:-P

You'll be fine as long as you don't tell anyone :-D

Jeff_in_KC
12-04-2011, 10:44 AM
Jeff, you must understand, the membership cannot change any thing relating to the bylaws. That authority was given to the BOD by a vote of the membership several ages ago. WE, THE MEMBERS, HAVE NO RIGHTS!!!

I'm saying the Board should initiate a by-laws change to fix some of these issues. On a few issues, I've been told by board members "can't do this because it's in the by-laws that way". Well somebody wrote them and over the last 25 years, they've been updated and changed more than once. It's not the Ten Commandments carved in stone!

Smoke'n Ice
12-04-2011, 01:34 PM
Shoot Jeff, this board even rejected adopting any form of parlimentary procedures, what makes us think that they would make by-law changes? I know last year at this time, several members on the board were trying to get by-law changes to give some of the power back to the membership at the annual meeting and that fizzled like a roman candle. the GOBN at work.

BritToby
12-06-2011, 06:18 AM
Its getting pretty dull waiting for this cease and desist, It takes 2 days to get the bullsheet, I guess they are making some effort with this one!

Funtimebbq
12-06-2011, 08:45 AM
Shoot Jeff, this board even rejected adopting any form of parlimentary procedures, what makes us think that they would make by-law changes? I know last year at this time, several members on the board were trying to get by-law changes to give some of the power back to the membership at the annual meeting and that fizzled like a roman candle. the GOBN at work.

Maybe the don't use Parlimentary Procedures for fear of getting a C and D letter from the British. :-D

Benny

Dr_KY
12-09-2011, 11:07 AM
Still waiting for the details on this...

BritToby
12-09-2011, 11:52 AM
Maybe the don't use Parlimentary Procedures for fear of getting a C and D letter from the British. :-D

Benny

:laugh:

vraczka
12-14-2011, 03:05 AM
Any update on the C and D letter?

BritToby
12-14-2011, 03:28 AM
Would be pretty unprofessional of me to give out details, but I will say they have seriously got their wires crossed and referred to items that I have never requested or suggested.

It really was very confusing, I replied immediately and had hoped to see something on the BOD agenda about it, i assume they require a board meeting before responding to me with a factually correct letter, but they seem to have missed their own deadline for posting this info up.

Candy Sue
12-14-2011, 10:54 AM
Jeff, you must understand, the membership cannot change any thing relating to the bylaws. That authority was given to the BOD by a vote of the membership several ages ago. WE, THE MEMBERS, HAVE NO RIGHTS!!!

This is not correct. Last January's election wrote a change in the Bylaws that has members having ALL AUTHORITY in passing Bylaw changes. There are several important items regarding Bylaw changes in the upcoming election. The board does not change Bylaws, members do. Now, as far as how members make changes -- that's up in the air. My opinion is that the board cannot and should not ignore any member petition requesting any change. That was done in the past.

The board will shape proposals to change Bylaws for member vote, but that's all. One of the hot topics at tonight's board meeting is how to divide our membership up regionally for regional representatives on the board. This was generated from the members' concensus vote last January.

bover
12-14-2011, 11:37 AM
One of the hot topics at tonight's board meeting is how to divide our membership up regionally for regional representatives on the board. This was generated from the members' concensus vote last January.

The vote was to require that some board members be elected by regions and not that the membership would be divided up, correct?


I would support the change in KCBS that would require some Board Members to be elected by regions
Yes - I support this statement receives 1935 votes, 74.68% of the total.
No - I do not support this statement receives 453 votes, 17.48% of the total.
Make no selection. receives 203 votes, 7.83% of the total.


And for what it's worth, I know what's done is done and can't be undone but I'm of the opinion that the wording on this particular poll question was a bit unfortunate. It seems to me that the spirit of the question was to gauge the membership's opinion on the need for regional representation on the board, but the way it was worded presumes that the solution to that representation is through direct board membership. If that is the solution that is ultimately put in place, it could potentially open a can of worms if someone is elected mainly due to their mailing address and not necessarily because of their qualifications. I believe a much better solution would be the formation of a committee made up of members from each region dedicated to gathering input and intel from their respective areas and injecting those findings in to all BoD decisions that are relevant. The wording of the question however eliminates this as a possibility and it appears that a decision was already made for a solution before the need was even confirmed.

Jeff_in_KC
12-14-2011, 03:44 PM
If that is the solution that is ultimately put in place, it could potentially open a can of worms if someone is elected mainly due to their mailing address and not necessarily because of their qualifications. I believe a much better solution would be the formation of a committee made up of members from each region dedicated to gathering input and intel from their respective areas and injecting those findings in to all BoD decisions that are relevant. The wording of the question however eliminates this as a possibility and it appears that a decision was already made for a solution before the need was even confirmed.


Josh, that's my thought as well. Regional representation should be at the committee level. What happens if there is a region that is up for re-election and no one in the region wants it? Then what do we do? Leave the seat open? That would be ridiculous. Then what if we had a region where there was someone running unopposed and that person was a known nut job? So that person is automatically on the board? Electing someone because of where they're from rather than their qualifications makes zero sense and is, in fact, VERY dangerous!

ThomEmery
12-14-2011, 03:52 PM
I would not agree with your thoughts there Jeff

Candy Sue
12-14-2011, 04:24 PM
The vote was to require that some board members be elected by regions and not that the membership would be divided up, correct?


I would support the change in KCBS that would require some Board Members to be elected by regions
Yes - I support this statement receives 1935 votes, 74.68% of the total.
No - I do not support this statement receives 453 votes, 17.48% of the total.
Make no selection. receives 203 votes, 7.83% of the total.


And for what it's worth, I know what's done is done and can't be undone but I'm of the opinion that the wording on this particular poll question was a bit unfortunate. It seems to me that the spirit of the question was to gauge the membership's opinion on the need for regional representation on the board, but the way it was worded presumes that the solution to that representation is through direct board membership. If that is the solution that is ultimately put in place, it could potentially open a can of worms if someone is elected mainly due to their mailing address and not necessarily because of their qualifications. I believe a much better solution would be the formation of a committee made up of members from each region dedicated to gathering input and intel from their respective areas and injecting those findings in to all BoD decisions that are relevant. The wording of the question however eliminates this as a possibility and it appears that a decision was already made for a solution before the need was even confirmed.


I'd venture that you'll be voting NO for regional representation then. You've got to realize though that getting elected to the board now is a popularity contest not a process where qualifications are a major factor. Mostly reps get on because they interact with judges and cooks. That means they are more well known. Cooks generally just want to cook and (mostly) know better than serving on the board. Reps like to run things, that's what they do.

boogiesnap
12-14-2011, 05:42 PM
Liking to do something and knowing how to do it are two totally separate things.

vraczka
12-14-2011, 07:36 PM
Would be pretty unprofessional of me to give out details, but I will say they have seriously got their wires crossed and referred to items that I have never requested or suggested.

It really was very confusing, I replied immediately and had hoped to see something on the BOD agenda about it, i assume they require a board meeting before responding to me with a factually correct letter, but they seem to have missed their own deadline for posting this info up.

Thank you for the update and good luck.

White Dog BBQ
12-14-2011, 09:22 PM
If that is the solution that is ultimately put in place, it could potentially open a can of worms if someone is elected mainly due to their mailing address and not necessarily because of their qualifications.

And what do you think is happening now? Candidates from the KC area sure seem to do a lot better than candidates from other parts of the country.

I think the fears about regional representation are misplaced. Does anyone really think any regional board seat would go unopposed? Look at the number of candidates running this year without regional representation. For regional representation, I bet you would bring out a lot more candidates, especially outside the Midwest, since they know they won't have to compete with the inherent advantage some candidates enjoy due to their geographic location.

I admire Steve and Jeff and will likely vote for them, but this idea of using a committee composed of people from different regions is an empty gesture. If you think it is easy to alienate a board member, imagine how much easier it is to ignore a committee. "No report", anyone?

Split the country in to 5 regions (Northeast, Southeast, Northern Midwest, Southern Midwest and Pacific) and have a regional rep from each, plus 4 at large seats. I'll feel a lot better knowing that there will always be at least one voice from my geographic area on the Board.

Bunny
12-14-2011, 09:39 PM
I'd venture that you'll be voting NO for regional representation then. You've got to realize though that getting elected to the board now is a popularity contest not a process where qualifications are a major factor. Mostly reps get on because they interact with judges and cooks. That means they are more well known. Cooks generally just want to cook and (mostly) know better than serving on the board. Reps like to run things, that's what they do.

What if you're a rep AND a cook? What do we like to do?:confused:

Dr_KY
12-14-2011, 11:51 PM
If you hang a line out there and someone bites, which was your intention...