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huminie
11-15-2011, 10:59 AM
Is there any way to see the full standings, or at least more than the top 25? Also, is there any way to see the details of a specific team's standings?

I am aware of another site that does its own calculations and my team is listed at #19 in one of the categories. Their calcs look correct to me, but I am not sure how to verify on the KCBS side. Don't want to bug anyone if this is something I can look up myself.

TIA!

Jeff_in_KC
11-15-2011, 11:22 AM
The current system is so demanding on the person who does the job each week that the top 25 is all that can be tracked without danged near dedicating a position solely to updating the standings. They will release all at the end of the year. The new systems KCBS SHOULD put in place would automate all of it so that every team can be easily tracked all season long.

You MAY be looking at that site's power rankings rather than their KCBS rankings. They score differently. Be sure you're looking at the right one on their site. I found last year that KCBS and that site were pretty close except on a couple of teams who had different spellings, etc.

YankeeBBQ
11-15-2011, 11:37 AM
The current system is so demanding on the person who does the job each week that the top 25 is all that can be tracked without danged near dedicating a position solely to updating the standings.

I don't really buy that. I'm no tech expert but every KCBS contest has a file created with the results. There should be a way to import that file into the database. I understand spelling errors could cause some issues but not enough to fill a 40 hour work week for 1 person. Possibly one day per week but that seems reasonable to me.

Jorge
11-15-2011, 11:44 AM
I talked to Paul Ostrum about his process a couple of years ago in Great Bend. His biggest issue in scraping the data ended up being misspellings. The new software is supposed to address that at some point.

Bigdog
11-15-2011, 11:51 AM
Ok, I can see where spelling would be a problem. How about giving each team a number then?

huminie
11-15-2011, 11:53 AM
Thanks guys. I am definitely looking at the regular ToY standings and not the power rankings.

I had an issue with team name spelling at the beginning of the year and Paul fixed it, so that could be the issue.

I didn't want to cause anyone any extra work, but since I have never seen my name on the "big" list, I would like to see it corrected.

Here is what I am looking at: http://www.bbqbug.com/pickled-pigs-kcbs-team-year-toy-approximate-points-and-standings?cg=3&nm=Ribs

My team is listed as tied for 18th.

Jeff_in_KC
11-15-2011, 11:56 AM
I don't really buy that. I'm no tech expert but every KCBS contest has a file created with the results. There should be a way to import that file into the database. I understand spelling errors could cause some issues but not enough to fill a 40 hour work week for 1 person. Possibly one day per week but that seems reasonable to me.

With the number of reps out there who spell team names differently, it's a nightmare to cross check all of the scores and remember, there are well over 5,000 teams competing in KCBS contests. THEN the problem is cross checking all of them to verify they're members of KCBS. They don't show up in the list if they aren't members.

Ok, I can see where spelling would be a problem. How about giving each team a number then?


that's exactly what should happen. I believe it will with new software but who knows?

Alexa RnQ
11-15-2011, 12:00 PM
Ok, I can see where spelling would be a problem. How about giving each team a number then?
Another excellent reason to track teams by the declared head cook's KCBS member number.

bover
11-15-2011, 12:03 PM
Another excellent reason to track teams by the declared head cook's KCBS member number.

I agree, but that would then require the head cooks to actually be KCBS members. From what I understand, that would have some sort of impact on the legal position of the organization itself.

huminie
11-15-2011, 12:16 PM
While there is no requirement to be a KCBS member to compete in a KCBS contest, I am pretty sure they do not track the standings of non-member teams. Maybe I am wrong here though. So if I, as a head cook, fill out my entry form and include my KCBS member number and then the rep has a list of all teams and head cook member numbers (if applicable), and submits that to KCBS when the results go in, it should make things a lot easier to track.

BTW, after my team name was misspelled early on, I have since ensured to double check the rep's paper work during meat inspection to ensure they have my name correct. Definitely worth the extra few seconds, especially for those of us with tricky team names.

Jorge
11-15-2011, 12:32 PM
Ok, I can see where spelling would be a problem. How about giving each team a number then?

With the number of reps out there who spell team names differently, it's a nightmare to cross check all of the scores and remember, there are well over 5,000 teams competing in KCBS contests. THEN the problem is cross checking all of them to verify they're members of KCBS. They don't show up in the list if they aren't members.




that's exactly what should happen. I believe it will with new software but who knows?

Another excellent reason to track teams by the declared head cook's KCBS member number.

I agree, but that would then require the head cooks to actually be KCBS members. From what I understand, that would have some sort of impact on the legal position of the organization itself.

My understanding is that some # will be used, or is at least being considered. It's encouraging that some thought is being given to accomplish the ultimate goal which is to simplify the process, as well as improve the speed and accuracy of public results.

Non members are, and should be a non-factor. KCBS tracks and reports on member teams that have opted into the system. A contest entry fee, is not a membership and being included in TOY is a value added item included in membership.

I think things are moving in the right direction.

DawgPhan
11-15-2011, 12:42 PM
yeah it is the spelling and name stuff that makes it a pain in the rear end.

not to pick on anyone but something like "Que'n, Stew'n, and Brew'n" is a nightmare for tracking a team.

it gets spelled a million different ways, they cook a ton of contests and it is never consistent.

There has to be an ID number for each team to reduce the effort for updating the rankings.

Oh and no mention of the several cases of multiple teams with the same name.

Podge
11-15-2011, 01:38 PM
I agree, but that would then require the head cooks to actually be KCBS members. From what I understand, that would have some sort of impact on the legal position of the organization itself.

Agreed.. but it was mandatory to be a member to cook the Sam's series.

Jorge
11-15-2011, 01:45 PM
Agreed.. but it was mandatory to be a member to cook the Sam's series.

I may be misunderstanding you and bover. There are issues with requiring membership to enter a contest that is 'Open'. Tracking member teams for 'KCBS TOY' does not cross that line. That's the bottom line for Sam's Club events not being qualifiers, or should have been. They weren't truly open. It may or may not have been the intent, but that was the end result. EDIT: and I'm fine with that. It was a series that was unique and served a purpose.

Alexa RnQ
11-15-2011, 02:29 PM
Non members are, and should be a non-factor. ... A contest entry fee, is not a membership and being included in TOY is a value added item included in membership.
Exactly. These are the salient points.

Last year KCBS provided standings for thousands of teams -- some of whom had bragged publicly that they were not KCBS members. I have always believed that if you derive benefit from an organization, you should support the organization with the very modest membership fee.

Conversely, I don't think KCBS should be in the business of expending members' money on tracking non-members.

YankeeBBQ
11-15-2011, 04:48 PM
Exactly. These are the salient points.

Last year KCBS provided standings for thousands of teams -- some of whom had bragged publicly that they were not KCBS members. I have always believed that if you derive benefit from an organization, you should support the organization with the very modest membership fee.

Conversely, I don't think KCBS should be in the business of expending members' money on tracking non-members.

I've always found this argument a little silly with KCBS competitions. Every team that enters a competition pays an entry fee. This entry fee in turn pays for the KCBS reps, the software, the plates, the slips and anything else involved with KCBS's part in the competition.

In a sense it cost KCBS more to figure out who is a member and who is not when it comes to the standings. It might be easier to just track everyone but when awards time comes only KCBS members are eligible for any prize.

Requiring teams to join KCBS to compete would anger many people including the organizers in my opinion. They would probably seek out a sanctioning body that wouldn't limit who could compete.

If KCBS wants more people to join then we need to figure out some real benefits that would entice people. The TOY program is only beneficial to a small percentage of cooks, namely those that cook ten plus contests a year.

Alexa RnQ
11-15-2011, 05:25 PM
I didn't suggest requiring KCBS membership in order to compete -- only to be eligible for ToY tracking.

CivilWarBBQ
11-15-2011, 06:02 PM
As a developer of database-driven Web applications for other non-profits, I can speak to this issue from a technical perspective. Not only is the spelling of a team's name a challenge, but there are teams operating in different parts of the country that have very similar (or in some cases identical) team names. It is absolutely imperitive for this kind of tracking to assign some sort of unique identifier to each team. Using the KCBS membership number won't work since not all teams are members, or may have multiple head cooks that are members.

This is an obvious drawback of the current scoring software which everyone agrees is hopelessly obsolete. The sooner a new solution is put in operation the better things will be for everyone. Until then, the manual method must be used which is both highly labor intensive and much more likely to introduce errors in the data.

ALX
11-15-2011, 06:37 PM
What exactly is a season....January-january?????....

huminie
11-16-2011, 12:28 PM
I believe the KCBS season ends after the second weekend in December.

And just to follow up on my original post, KCBS provided me with my full standings and has updated the listing on their site. They were very responsive to my inquiry and very friendly.

I am pretty stoked to see my name on the "Big List" for the first time ever.

dhuffjr
11-16-2011, 01:01 PM
To me it is silly to have a KCBS competition circuit and not track all teams. I can live with the pickled pig stats until KCBS turns out the full results for TOY.

What I'd really like to see is a filter which should be easy to do with however they are enter the results. For teams that don't compete 10 times a year it sure would be nice to see how you stack against other teams that cook the same number of contests.

HarleyGirl14226
11-16-2011, 01:10 PM
And just to follow up on my original post, KCBS provided me with my full standings and has updated the listing on their site. They were very responsive to my inquiry and very friendly.

I am pretty stoked to see my name on the "Big List" for the first time ever.

And where is the "Big List" on the KCBS website?

huminie
11-16-2011, 02:34 PM
And where is the "Big List" on the KCBS website?

http://www.kcbs.us/pointschase.php

roksmith
11-16-2011, 02:44 PM
Not that it matters, but something on those results are off. Chicken has been by far our best category and it shows us lower in that than everything else.
Oh well
Oops.. my bad those are the 2010 results I was looking at... my bad..our chicken did suck last year.