PDA

View Full Version : Question for Candidates


Candy Sue
11-09-2011, 11:23 AM
I really do want to know your stance on PORK rules! It will determine how I vote and maybe how others vote as well.

Thanks!

YankeeBBQ
11-09-2011, 02:02 PM
That thread is still alive Candy http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119816

But for the record I'm against the rule. Especially the part that says you can't return parted pork to the cooker. Why can't I return parted pork to the cooker to set a sauce on the money muscle and make sure the pulled meat is nice and hot when it goes into the box ?

Rookie'48
11-09-2011, 02:13 PM
I am against the pork rule. It just makes no sense or at least no one has been able to explain it in a way that makes sense. In the last couple of years we've gotten rid of the "identifiable" rule - this one needs to go on the trash heap, also.

If some one can explain the reason that this rule was created and why it might still be relevant I might change my mind, but until then I'm against it.

Jeff_in_KC
11-09-2011, 09:20 PM
I'm against it as well. Same reasons.

Leatherheadiowa
11-09-2011, 10:08 PM
If a rule is near impossible to enforce then why have the rule? The rule can go away at anytime.

Smokedelic
11-09-2011, 10:27 PM
If a rule is near impossible to enforce then why have the rule? The rule can go away at anytime.Hmmm...using that argument, you may as well do away with rules 3, 6, 7, 8, and most of 17 while you're at it.

Leatherheadiowa
11-10-2011, 12:30 AM
Hmmm...using that argument, you may as well do away with rules 3, 6, 7, 8, and most of 17 while you're at it.

If that's the way you feel. I was talking about the rule being discussed, but thanks for your insight. I think all rules need to be evaluated on some type of routine schedule and have adequate member input and discussion from cooks and judges.
Enforcing any and or all of the would require(s) micromanagement and we all know how that subject goes. :tape:

boogiesnap
11-10-2011, 07:23 AM
I am against the pork rule. It just makes no sense or at least no one has been able to explain it in a way that makes sense. In the last couple of years we've gotten rid of the "identifiable" rule - this one needs to go on the trash heap, also.

If some one can explain the reason that this rule was created and why it might still be relevant I might change my mind, but until then I'm against it.

it is there to preserve the large cut cook of the pork.

if it is removed, then we've got a pork grilling contest. similar to where chicken is now.

i do realize what's good for the goose is good for the gander and brisket may be parted, so why not pork?


but i think the integrity of cooking a large peice of pork whole must be held together as best as possible.

Smokedelic
11-10-2011, 07:42 AM
If that's the way you feel. I was talking about the rule being discussed, but thanks for your insight. I think all rules need to be evaluated on some type of routine schedule and have adequate member input and discussion from cooks and judges.
Enforcing any and or all of the would require(s) micromanagement and we all know how that subject goes. :tape:
It's not the way I feel, but apparently, it's the way you feel.

To answer your question "If a rule is near impossible to enforce then why have the rule" more directly, you have those rules that are hard to enforce because the vast majority of cooks out here will follow them anyway, regardless of the amount of oversight or level of enforcement. There will always be a small minority that will not follow the rules, intentionally or unintentionally, no matter how many or how few rules there are and no matter how great or how lacking the oversight may be, but that shouldn't be the justification for doing away with a rule.

Jorge
11-10-2011, 10:08 AM
It's not the way I feel, but apparently, it's the way you feel.

To answer your question "If a rule is near impossible to enforce then why have the rule" more directly, you have those rules that are hard to enforce because the vast majority of cooks out here will follow them anyway, regardless of the amount of oversight or level of enforcement. There will always be a small minority that will not follow the rules, intentionally or unintentionally, no matter how many or how few rules there are and no matter how great or how lacking the oversight may be, but that shouldn't be the justification for doing away with a rule.


That's an argument I can listen to and appreciate.

I've suggested some changes, to pork in particular. Money is becoming a bigger player in some contests. I don't think RGC will be as pissed if they miss out on $5k, as they will if it's $50k and the GC is discovered to be cheating at some point. Those contests are out there, and if we take care of business there could be more.

Doesn't KCBS have an obligation to look at those issues and try to address them before the fact?

Smokedelic
11-10-2011, 11:42 AM
Doesn't KCBS have an obligation to look at those issues and try to address them before the fact?Yes...and I hope they will. Sooner rather than later. I hope they use more logic than just doing away with a rule because it's difficult to enforce.

Jorge
11-10-2011, 12:13 PM
Yes...and I hope they will. Sooner rather than later. I hope they use more logic than just doing away with a rule because it's difficult to enforce.

If you've got a better solution, I'm willing to listen. If you've got workable ideas on enforcement, I'd like to hear them. Emphasis is on workable. I'm not playing games or trying to be an ass. How do we enforce what we have to work with now, or something altered slightly without solely depending on honesty and integrity. I don't doubt those qualities in the OVERWHELMING majority of cooks.

At the end of the day, I want to see a reasonable set of rules that benefit the overwhelming majority of cooks that are willing to play by those same rules. You and Don, are up at the top of the food chain and can hold your own whether they choose to cheat or not. I'm not just thinking about the difference in GC or RGC. It's also about the team that is knocking on the door to get that first top ten call. You think back to when you started and tell me how much that first call meant in comparison to the GC calls you've had.

It's all about that level playing field, that everybody wants to talk about. As an organization we need to focus on that, as well as other things.

Scottie
11-10-2011, 12:28 PM
Fines dont work for an infraction, no way to enforce or collect. An example would be to ban the team for 2 years (used as an example). While i do not expect every team to be search for their pork. Couldnt KCBS do spot checks? Pull a couple of team numbers out of a hat and inspect just those teams? Teams would know this going in to contests that there is a possibility of a check up on their meat.

For the record i support no parting rule. I do not necessarily agree with heating pulled or sliced pork part of the rule. But it needs to be enforced, so i guess ultimately i dont support that either.

Learn to cook better and you can cook money muscle and the rest of the butt. If you cant, then cook 3 or 4 butts.

Slamdunkpro
11-10-2011, 02:48 PM
After giving this some thought, if the purpose of the pork category is to cook a large piece of pork vs turning it into a pork grilling event Here's how I'd rewrite the rule:

Legal pork shall consist of bone in IMPS shoulder #403 and it's derivatives ( 403B, 403C, 404, 406, 406B, 406C, and 407) with a raw weight of at least 5lbs.where the animal has been broken no further rostral than Cervical vertebra C3 and no further caudal than thoracic vertebra T1 (the first rostral rib).

The pork entry must be cooked whole and intact with no butterflying, spatchcocking or other types of complete or partial separation. Processed pork (pulled, sliced, chunked etc) is not permitted to be in the competitor's cooker until 45 minutes prior to the official pork turn in time. Competitors found with processed pork in their cooker prior to the above time window will be DQ'd in the pork category.



The first paragraph defines what's legal with no loopholes
It's easy for the meat inspector - is there a bone in it? (Collars are boneless)
The second paragraph eliminates the ambiguities and angle shooting that goes on now.
Spot checking is easy - we should all know what an intact pork butt / shoulder looks like by now. Reps can spot check 10 cook sites in under 30 minutes
The 45 minute window is easy to enforce and gives the cooks the ability to heat final product / set sauce

Yes, 95% of compliance is still based on competitor integrity, but the rules need to be easy for the competitor to understand and for the event staff / reps to spot violations.

Smokedelic
11-10-2011, 04:49 PM
Jorge...not sure about being at the top of the food chain, it feels more like we're the food for the top of the food chain, but thanks.

I bet I can find at least 25 teams that have learned how to perfect their pork turn-ins using the current rules. Love 'em or hate 'em, the current rules impose no undue hardship and are pretty clear on what is/isn't allowed. The problem with making more rules, or more complicated rules, is that it makes it that much harder for new teams to get started. If contests are an extension of the KCBS mission of promoting BBQ, then creating more barriers to getting started as a new cook is counterproductive.

If you want to start tweaking rules somewhere, start with the whole TOY debacle. When teams can split and compete in 2 different contests on the same weekend and earn points for TOY, although not against the current rules, is complete horse puckey. If you're going to start rewriting a rule, tighten up and enforce #2, where a team must designate a chief cook, period. Not a different chief cook for each contest(because it doesn't really say that in the rule, does it?), but a chief cook always. If the chief cook ain't there cooking, you can win money and/or swag, but no TOY points. Or, the rest of the team must use a different team name, and the TOY points go under that different team name.

Muzzlebrake
11-10-2011, 06:21 PM
A wise woman once told me " I just want to set my sauce man!"

I think you should be able to put it back in the cooker if you want. The rest of the rule is fine.


Legal pork shall consist of bone in IMPS shoulder #403 and it's derivatives ( 403B, 403C, 404, 406, 406B, 406C, and 407) with a raw weight of at least 5lbs.where the animal has been broken no further rostral than Cervical vertebra C3 and no further caudal than thoracic vertebra T1 (the first rostral rib).

that clears it right up :shock:

Funtimebbq
11-10-2011, 09:20 PM
Slamdunkpro,

I appreciate what you have written. It appears to be well thought out. I would say, there could be problems with Reps. being too busy with chicken and rib turn-ins to monitor the 45 minute reheating aspect.

Benny

Slamdunkpro
11-10-2011, 09:58 PM
Slamdunkpro,

I appreciate what you have written. It appears to be well thought out. I would say, there could be problems with Reps. being too busy with chicken and rib turn-ins to monitor the 45 minute reheating aspect.

Benny

They aren't too busy at 10am.

drbbq
11-11-2011, 07:19 AM
I've been around for 20 years and when I started you could cook any cut of pork. Guys cooked pork loin and pork tenderloin. The way I remember they made it butt/shoulder at least 5 lbs cooked whole so guys had to cook real BBQ. Nobody back then ever dreamed about the money muscle bullchit and they sure never dreamed that guys would slice a brisket and put it back in the cooker.
My opinion is we keep the pork rule and make a brisket no parting rule in the name of cooking real BBQ. But if we're going to allow grilling small pieces then let's go all the way back and allow any cut of pork. Why bother with butts.

Funtimebbq
11-11-2011, 09:02 AM
They aren't too busy at 10am.


Sorry, I was working back from the pork turn-in time. That puts the 45 minutes at 12:15, right between chicken and ribs.
I guess the reps could check to see if cooks have whole butts in their smokers at 10 am. For me, the reps could check my Cambro because that is where they would find the butts at 10 am. The time for judge check-in and orientation could be adjusted to make it happen.

Benny

Smokedelic
11-11-2011, 09:28 AM
They aren't too busy at 10am.
At most contests around here, that's when they have the judges meeting.

Slamdunkpro
11-11-2011, 10:11 AM
Sorry, I was working back from the pork turn-in time. That puts the 45 minutes at 12:15, right between chicken and ribs.
I guess the reps could check to see if cooks have whole butts in their smokers at 10 am. For me, the reps could check my Cambro because that is where they would find the butts at 10 am. The time for judge check-in and orientation could be adjusted to make it happen.

Benny

Under my suggested rule, 12:15 is the earliest you could put parted pork back in the cooker. If your butts are out of the cooker, then it doesn't matter

At most contests around here, that's when they have the judges meeting.
So? Reps aren't high school girls - they don't have to travel in packs or all be at every function at the same time. KCBS requires 1 rep for every 25 teams, so if you have 51 teams you have to pay for 3 reps. I would hope that it doesn't take all three to run a judge's meeting.

Scottie
11-11-2011, 11:54 AM
I agree Doc. Lets just cook pork loin and tri tip. them when everyone gets better we will switch it up again. then we will give everyone an "I can potty ribbon" at awards...

For the record i have never given any thought to parting my butt or my point. I learned how to do it with out those steps...

Jeff_in_KC
11-11-2011, 04:23 PM
I agree Doc. Lets just cook pork loin and tri tip. them when everyone gets better we will switch it up again. then we will give everyone an "I can potty ribbon" at awards...

For the record i have never given any thought to parting my butt or my point. I learned how to do it with out those steps...

I never got a potty award but I did shart at awards once. At least I said I did while announcing then! Trying to "start" the awards but when I said it, it came out "shart". I'll never live that one down! :bow:

Meatlover
11-12-2011, 08:56 AM
I have been visiting this website and a couple others and I see quite a bit of chatter about the election for the kcbs board. Can anyone post questions for the candidates? Just wondered if that was ok, I am a member of KCBS and usually don't vote but while reading the Bull Sheet there are more than a dozen people running. That sent up a red flag that something must be important enough to these folks for them to want to run. While I usually don't have much to say on sites like this I thought I would see what conversing on here would be like and this interests me and my four votes. Hopefully being new I'm not out of line by putting this on here.