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View Full Version : Time to stir the kcbs bod pot again!!


Tarheel
10-25-2011, 05:43 PM
:becky: I will first start by telling those of you that don't know me my name is Roy Murray, I am Tarheel Smokers, I have been cooking comps for 10 years, I am a certified judge #3202, I am a KCBS member #8026, I am a contest organizer, I am a retired Costie, (Coast Guard) I currently own and operate a fireplace and grill shop, and I put my pants on one leg at a time. And foremost I am not running for the board.

I have been reading the post below about a group running for the board. What I am about to say is my opinion only and does not reflect that of anyone that I have not conspired with to do this.
I will be the first one to tell you that I am not happy with some of the performance of the current board. I have voiced my opinion to them on several occasions to the point I am now considered a trouble maker by some. I prefer the title of Pot Stirrer! It seems that the more you voice your opinion with some the less they like you. Oh well, life goes on. I have even stirred the pot here before with judges and coolers and taking food home.

There are a lot of things that go on with bod's and most of it the general population would not care about. There have been some things that this board has done that would make most do a double take. Prior boards have done the same thing and future boards will do the same. Some of it works out and some of it doesn't, that is just the way it works. Some people may think that going into executive session to discuss contracts or personal issues is back room dealing. It is no different on your county school board when they talk those type issues.

This board has done things like giving the Sams club tour a 20k slush fund to buy things that any other contest has to pay for. You have got board members getting paid to act as contest organizers for the marketing company that they put inplace with a contract. They have approved contest that had less than 90 days before the actual contest date. They have let a contest continue without insurance. The list can go on and all of it was done out in the open at a board meeting that is open for you to listen to and even call in and voice your opinion at.

Four of you want to run as a group so you can make changes and make it more transparent. Good luck with that. I am sure each of you mean well and have the best of intentions and some good ideas for this organization. There is no doubt that the KCBS needs help and I am sure each of you could contribute to that but you need to do it on your own individual merit. The board already has its little groups we don't need another little group. We need everyone working together for the common good of the KCBS.

Now to give credit where it is due as well, this board has done some good things and is to be commended for there accomplishments as well. Despite some of its misgivings the Sams Club event gave the KCBS some good exposure. MMA has done a very good job promoting the KCBS. Hopefully the new scoring system will help, the jury is still out. And that list could go on as well but I don't want to swell any heads or let them think I am a nice person.

Again, this is my opinion and does not reflect anyone else's. Thank you and Good night.:crazy:

swamprb
10-25-2011, 06:26 PM
You forgot to mention Pork Collars.

Tarheel
10-25-2011, 06:42 PM
:doh: I knew there was something else!!!

Dan - 3eyzbbq
10-25-2011, 08:47 PM
Hey Roy-

As the president of a professional organization I think I understand where the group is going. Votes don't pass by individuals, so having internal support is the only way to institute change. So, you either get your allies early or you find them on the BOD. Just my 2cents.

I'm for the group ticket :thumb:

Jeff_in_KC
10-25-2011, 09:50 PM
Thanks Dan! Roy, in regards to your comment, I think running on your own merits is a good idea. I did so in 2009 if you recall and came within 50 votes of being elected to a seat, narrowly losing to Paul Kirk for the fourth spot. I believe I have my credentials and I will put them up against any candidate's. HOWEVER, that being said, all four of us running on the so-called "ticket" have very, very similar ideas and goals for the board that I firmly believe would meet with the approval of most KCBS members. While it is impossible to agree with everyone on all issues all of the time, I believe you will appreciate and be able to support our platform and I hope we will have your support! Thanks!

Bunny
10-25-2011, 09:56 PM
I've been on the BOD for six years and I think it's time to get these 4 on it. They would do a great justice for the BOD. I support you.:thumb:

Rookie'48
10-25-2011, 11:17 PM
From what Jeff, Steve and George have said I feel that we can all work together in getting more transparency and less BS on the BoD.

I'm looking at us as a group and I don't see a guy selling classes or books, I don't see where any of us can use the BoD to get juicy contest assignments because none of us are Reps, I don't see where any of us can use our positions to line our own pockets in any way, manner, shape or form.

Two of us do have a chance of making some money in BBQ - but only if their teams can get a few calls at a contest.

Are we always going to agree on every subject? Probably not, but I'm sure that each of the others will have good, solid reasons for their stance, as I will. Sometimes you just don't see eye to eye but you can still trust and respect the other guy because you know that he's giving his honest opinion.

Tarheel
10-26-2011, 07:32 AM
Good morning bbq world, I love it when I can start the day with a positive and start the energy bus off right. I am so glad to see the comments so far. This can do nothing but bring the positive out.

I too can see where the group is trying to head with this as I have had many conversations over the years about what and where the KCBS should or should not be doing. The fact that the four of you are willing to put your words into action is more than I have done when it comes to running for the board.

My biggest concern is the fact that you have brought up that you have similar ideas and goals. My question for you is do those ideas and goals mesh with the ones that will be left on the board so that you can have that positive impact? Or is it going to be a clash of the minds and nothing ends up getting done?

I am sure that you all have the best intentions and truly want the organization to thrive and grow in the right direction. You keep bringing up the word transparency, I hope that you don't get hung up on that issue because I think once you get there you will find out that there is not that much going on that they don't divulge. There will always be the back scratching that goes on in any board. The four of you are already saying that by running as a group with common ideas and goals. I hope that if you get elected and the first time the four of you get together and hatch an idea you will look at which room you are in and is that idea what the general membership wants to happen.

I have strong opinions about what I think the KCBS should do but that is not always where or what it needs to go or do. I think that most on the board know this although it doesn't always get done that way. The four of you have to be observant and willing enough to send it in a direction that you may not totally agree with but is what is needed.

I am looking forward to the next round of discussion. :-D

Jorge
10-26-2011, 07:54 AM
:becky: I will first start by telling those of you that don't know me my name is Roy Murray, I am Tarheel Smokers, I have been cooking comps for 10 years, I am a certified judge #3202, I am a KCBS member #8026, I am a contest organizer, I am a retired Costie, (Coast Guard) I currently own and operate a fireplace and grill shop, and I put my pants on one leg at a time. And foremost I am not running for the board.

I have been reading the post below about a group running for the board. What I am about to say is my opinion only and does not reflect that of anyone that I have not conspired with to do this.
I will be the first one to tell you that I am not happy with some of the performance of the current board. I have voiced my opinion to them on several occasions to the point I am now considered a trouble maker by some. I prefer the title of Pot Stirrer! It seems that the more you voice your opinion with some the less they like you. Oh well, life goes on. I have even stirred the pot here before with judges and coolers and taking food home.

There are a lot of things that go on with bod's and most of it the general population would not care about. There have been some things that this board has done that would make most do a double take. Prior boards have done the same thing and future boards will do the same. Some of it works out and some of it doesn't, that is just the way it works. Some people may think that going into executive session to discuss contracts or personal issues is back room dealing. It is no different on your county school board when they talk those type issues.

This board has done things like giving the Sams club tour a 20k slush fund to buy things that any other contest has to pay for. You have got board members getting paid to act as contest organizers for the marketing company that they put inplace with a contract. They have approved contest that had less than 90 days before the actual contest date. They have let a contest continue without insurance. The list can go on and all of it was done out in the open at a board meeting that is open for you to listen to and even call in and voice your opinion at.

Four of you want to run as a group so you can make changes and make it more transparent. Good luck with that. I am sure each of you mean well and have the best of intentions and some good ideas for this organization. There is no doubt that the KCBS needs help and I am sure each of you could contribute to that but you need to do it on your own individual merit. The board already has its little groups we don't need another little group. We need everyone working together for the common good of the KCBS.

Now to give credit where it is due as well, this board has done some good things and is to be commended for there accomplishments as well. Despite some of its misgivings the Sams Club event gave the KCBS some good exposure. MMA has done a very good job promoting the KCBS. Hopefully the new scoring system will help, the jury is still out. And that list could go on as well but I don't want to swell any heads or let them think I am a nice person.

Again, this is my opinion and does not reflect anyone else's. Thank you and Good night.:crazy:

I actually agree with the majority of the views you've expressed. I'll explain some of the areas or details where I disagree with you.

As for running as a group I agree to an extent, and understand the perception that some will have. However, the way that members cast votes does not require an all or nothing vote, and as a result the four of us do end up succeeding or failing based on our own merit. There are issues that we will not agree upon, and vote differently, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm comfortable in the personal integrity and honesty each of the other three candidates I've affiliated myself with have shown over the years.

I agree with the examples regarding executive session that you cited. Litigation, contracts, and personnel issues can all be legitimate reason to enter into executive session. However, there have been blatant instances in the past where executive session was clearly used as a tool to avoid scrutiny. That's just wrong, and whether anything illegal or immoral occurred the appearance of impropriety has damaged the trust and credibility that many members are now willing to place in the elected leadership. In some cases involving disciplinary matters the issue being discussed is so vague when looking at the agenda it's a disservice to those involved whether they've done something wrong or not. After the fact there is so little information available that there is often what amounts to a verdict of guilt by perception to the general membership. That is a disservice to everyone. If the board feels that they need to impose some form of penalty, let that be known as well as who it has been imposed on as well as making sure that the action taken is equitable to past offenses or follows the clear guidelines that I hope are put in place. Make those guidelines well known in advance.

I'll address one additional point that is closely related but I feel needs to be addressed separately. I understand your concern about 'groups', and I understand why you feel that way. A search of this forum will find some posts, made by me, that were critical of the entire board based on their collective conduct. I said it, I meant it then, and I mean it now. I hold the entire board accountable for the open and blatant disregard for common courtesy we've seen in the past several years. Individuals played their roles, but the board as a whole allowed it to reach the point that it did. Beyond a dysfunctional board, we developed a divided membership. If elected myself and the three other candidates that I'm running with will attempt to introduce some new ideas, leadership, and a willingness to work with others and compromise when beneficial to the membership and organization yet remain true to our beliefs and principles when needed. I understand the math involved. It's our hope that in the first year we can demonstrate what is possible to other like minded members so that they may decide that it's worth their time to run, serve for a limited time, and improve the organization for the benefit of all. I hope that way of thinking has some merit in your opinion.

Either way, I appreciate your time and willingness to be involved in the process by sharing your views.

Ford
10-26-2011, 08:01 AM
Now to give credit where it is due as well, this board has done some good things and is to be commended for there accomplishments as well. Despite some of its misgivings the Sams Club event gave the KCBS some good exposure. MMA has done a very good job promoting the KCBS. Hopefully the new scoring system will help, the jury is still out. And that list could go on as well but I don't want to swell any heads or let them think I am a nice person.
There is no new system. Just a computer program to enter scores and to hopefully upload to the database for TOY scores.

Tarheel
10-26-2011, 12:38 PM
There is no new system. Just a computer program to enter scores and to hopefully upload to the database for TOY scores.

Yes, I think you are correct it is a new program, that I don't know all the fine details but I think will also keep track of judges as well and there scores as well. I do know it is a rather large contract that was signed by the board for it.

YankeeBBQ
10-26-2011, 01:41 PM
:becky: I will first start by telling those of you that don't know me my name is Roy Murray, I am Tarheel Smokers, I have been cooking comps for 10 years, I am a certified judge #3202, I am a KCBS member #8026, I am a contest organizer, I am a retired Costie, (Coast Guard) I currently own and operate a fireplace and grill shop, and I put my pants on one leg at a time. And foremost I am not running for the board.

I have been reading the post below about a group running for the board. What I am about to say is my opinion only and does not reflect that of anyone that I have not conspired with to do this.
I will be the first one to tell you that I am not happy with some of the performance of the current board. I have voiced my opinion to them on several occasions to the point I am now considered a trouble maker by some. I prefer the title of Pot Stirrer! It seems that the more you voice your opinion with some the less they like you. Oh well, life goes on. I have even stirred the pot here before with judges and coolers and taking food home.

There are a lot of things that go on with bod's and most of it the general population would not care about. There have been some things that this board has done that would make most do a double take. Prior boards have done the same thing and future boards will do the same. Some of it works out and some of it doesn't, that is just the way it works. Some people may think that going into executive session to discuss contracts or personal issues is back room dealing. It is no different on your county school board when they talk those type issues.

This board has done things like giving the Sams club tour a 20k slush fund to buy things that any other contest has to pay for. You have got board members getting paid to act as contest organizers for the marketing company that they put inplace with a contract. They have approved contest that had less than 90 days before the actual contest date. They have let a contest continue without insurance. The list can go on and all of it was done out in the open at a board meeting that is open for you to listen to and even call in and voice your opinion at.

Four of you want to run as a group so you can make changes and make it more transparent. Good luck with that. I am sure each of you mean well and have the best of intentions and some good ideas for this organization. There is no doubt that the KCBS needs help and I am sure each of you could contribute to that but you need to do it on your own individual merit. The board already has its little groups we don't need another little group. We need everyone working together for the common good of the KCBS.

Now to give credit where it is due as well, this board has done some good things and is to be commended for there accomplishments as well. Despite some of its misgivings the Sams Club event gave the KCBS some good exposure. MMA has done a very good job promoting the KCBS. Hopefully the new scoring system will help, the jury is still out. And that list could go on as well but I don't want to swell any heads or let them think I am a nice person.

Again, this is my opinion and does not reflect anyone else's. Thank you and Good night.:crazy:

I appreciate your point of view. Running as a group may hurt us or may help us only time will tell. At least it's out in the open and you know that the 4 of us share some ideas and goals and it's not some back room secret clique.

Tarheel
10-26-2011, 03:24 PM
I appreciate your point of view. Running as a group may hurt us or may help us only time will tell. At least it's out in the open and you know that the 4 of us share some ideas and goals and it's not some back room secret clique.

You are right only time will tell. And like I said in an earlier post, if you do get elected and the four of you hatch that first deal you will look to see what room you are in. Just make sure it is about the KCBS and not about trying to breaking up a clique. Or getting pork collar legalized!

ique
10-26-2011, 03:52 PM
You are right only time will tell. And like I said in an earlier post, if you do get elected and the four of you hatch that first deal you will look to see what room you are in. Just make sure it is about the KCBS and not about trying to breaking up a clique. Or getting pork collar legalized!

Personally I'm hoping that they DO get pork collar legalized

Tarheel
10-26-2011, 04:49 PM
Personally I'm hoping that they DO get pork collar legalized
I thought that was just a west coast thing , I didn't you know you knew what that was. :becky: Just kidding:doh:

Smoke'n Ice
10-26-2011, 06:08 PM
An interesting point was made above that some may not understand. We, KCBS, have entered into a contract with a company, individual or group, to develope a new program to do something. We are finally getting around to telling another company that they should stop as a new one has been engaged to do the same or similar development. The question is as follows:

Did they post a comprensive outline of the "NEW" software requirement???
Did they seek input from the membership for the "NEW" software???
Did they seek quotes from the membership to develop the "NEW" software???
Did they even think about the membership in the design of the "NEW" software???
Does anyone here know what they are doing for the "NEW" software design???

I know that quite a few of the member earn their living in software development, business development, critical thinking development, etc. Quite a few of them own their own business, manage large amounts of people and ideas and are downright qualified to make a living.

I know that several years ago, the membership, gave ALL rights and responsibilities to the BOD with the new bylaws. There was an attempt by some to give some of the oversight back to the membership but, this has not happened. I would venture to say that most members play ostrich and act like being a mushroom is good for the soul. :confused: off soapbox!!!

Jorge
10-26-2011, 07:18 PM
An interesting point was made above that some may not understand. We, KCBS, have entered into a contract with a company, individual or group, to develope a new program to do something. We are finally getting around to telling another company that they should stop as a new one has been engaged to do the same or similar development. The question is as follows:

Did they post a comprensive outline of the "NEW" software requirement???
Did they seek input from the membership for the "NEW" software???
Did they seek quotes from the membership to develop the "NEW" software???
Did they even think about the membership in the design of the "NEW" software???
Does anyone here know what they are doing for the "NEW" software design???

I know that quite a few of the member earn their living in software development, business development, critical thinking development, etc. Quite a few of them own their own business, manage large amounts of people and ideas and are downright qualified to make a living.

I know that several years ago, the membership, gave ALL rights and responsibilities to the BOD with the new bylaws. There was an attempt by some to give some of the oversight back to the membership but, this has not happened. I would venture to say that most members play ostrich and act like being a mushroom is good for the soul. :confused: off soapbox!!!

I was asked some questions, and answered the same. As a member, that is involved in the cooking side of competition BBQ that's where I was comfortable leaving it.

As someone that does that for a living, and your friend, I think we should have looked beyond KCBS membership as well as within. If the RFP was published elsewhere I'm not aware of it but that certainly doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

The code required is basic, and the time from initial award to delivery of final product should be short in a perfect world. Your other questions, are something I deal with daily. Initial concept is great, but everyone wants to have a finger in the finished product. I spent several hours of my day listening to people voice new ideas, or ask to have something changed back to the way it was four months ago. Too much input is frequently counterproductive and I can demonstrate that individuals often don't have a clue what they want on any given day...with multiple emails.

As a member, I wouldn't touch the job with a 10 foot insulated pole or a fleet of attorneys to cover my butt. No matter what product I delivered there would be a laptop it wouldn't run on, or other issues beyond my control that would land at my feet. We as a society are better off outsourcing to someone that is covered.

That's a change in tune from the last time I commented on this topic, when I was just thinking about the coding required. Looking at what's involved in terms of use and potential fallout....money well spent for everyone.

My .02

Smoke'n Ice
10-26-2011, 07:54 PM
George,
I agree with your post 100% The point I was trying to make is, the BOD has entered into a contract on our behalf. Now would be a good time to inform the membership what we are attempting develope and set some form of expectation for delivery. an example of this would be is "we have entered into a contract with joe blow to develope the next genration of software for KCBS to carry us into the future. The main componts will X, Y, Z and the expected delivery is 2019 or some date prior. I don't believe that is too much to ask of the board.

soap box overturned and I'm strung out. Gotta go take a toke! (for you oldies),

Tarheel
10-27-2011, 07:21 AM
Good morning bbq people, it is time for the morning stir. I have been reading each of the replies here and one common thread keeps coming up. It all has to do with not liking something the board has done. Everyone has something that they don't like about what they have done including me. I have tried to acknowledge some of there accomplishments. I know it may be hard sometimes to see it but there has been some good things that have come from the board. Those positives need to be built on.

Of those of you running what are the positive things that you want to continue to expand on? :becky:

Scottie
10-27-2011, 08:20 AM
Giving back is a major and important one for me.. From philanthropy (501c3, scholarships, emergency relief). Podcasts of the BOD meetings. Marketing with MMA. More contests..... Those are some that pop up immediately for me...

Leatherheadiowa
10-27-2011, 09:02 AM
Good morning bbq people, it is time for the morning stir. I have been reading each of the replies here and one common thread keeps coming up. It all has to do with not liking something the board has done. Everyone has something that they don't like about what they have done including me. I have tried to acknowledge some of there accomplishments. I know it may be hard sometimes to see it but there has been some good things that have come from the board. Those positives need to be built on.

Of those of you running what are the positive things that you want to continue to expand on? :becky:
I think that the BOD has done many great things. I think some of the corporate partnerships has been a good thing for the membership. I also believe that implementing the meeting technology has been good in opening up dialogue among the membership.
As a member of the Iowa Barbeque Society I appreciate the grants that the KCBS and the BOD has provided to assist us in our community service projects. Our society feeds over 1000 people at the Walk a Mile in Our Shoes walk for the homeless, we take inner city kids to Cookies BBQ in Northern Iowa for a plant tour and a bbq school for the day, we feed the residents and their families at a local nursing home called Senior Q', we feed donors that donate to fill a Mayflower moving trailer with household items for battered women, and a couple other events. Without the BOD and the KCBS these events wouldn't be as successful as they are in my opinion.
For all the people that have a beef or concern with the BOD, there many people that don't realize what the KCBS or BOD is or does and they appreciate the indirect help they receieve through the generous grants.
For me the help we can give to society is such a bold statement that KCBS cares. That's cool!

Candy Sue
10-27-2011, 09:07 AM
There is no new system. Just a computer program to enter scores and to hopefully upload to the database for TOY scores.

This is inaccurate. Early in the year, the board voted to change weighting of scores so that appearance is not exactly half of tenderness. This will, hopefully, eliminate many numerical ties. As the frequent loser in a tie-breaker, I really like this change!

Candy Sue
10-27-2011, 09:13 AM
On the 4-block running for the board, please answer the questions individually! It'd be unproductive if you all turn in the same answers and only the photographs change. I wish you all good luck and I look forward to seeing new faces and new voices on the board.

Roy, I appreciate all your concerns and your passion for this thing we do! You'll never be a trouble-maker in my opinion. It's good to have folks that stir up the bottom of the pot!

FatBoyz
10-27-2011, 09:47 AM
Wow... some things will never change... I see a change in the kc's tally snuff of one I am getting reassuring join again... I know people get pissed at thing because that are not done the way you would do them. But the wag your would do tv
hem might seem wrong to me... people mad and wanting to change things is good... it will make them want to get involved and make changes. All in all things seem to be heading in a good direction. I like the prez and yes some of the old Gary need to go. But snotty is wright there are more new heart imps poping up all the time.well there's my 2opinion cents...

Diva
10-27-2011, 09:49 AM
What??? :shock:

Jorge
10-27-2011, 10:06 AM
Good morning bbq people, it is time for the morning stir. I have been reading each of the replies here and one common thread keeps coming up. It all has to do with not liking something the board has done. Everyone has something that they don't like about what they have done including me. I have tried to acknowledge some of there accomplishments. I know it may be hard sometimes to see it but there has been some good things that have come from the board. Those positives need to be built on.

Of those of you running what are the positive things that you want to continue to expand on? :becky:

I'm happy with the recent tone of meetings to start. Listening to adults disagree without becoming disagreeable is a great step in the right direction. Working with MMA I believe the current board has made some great strides in making KCBS more visible to the general public. The Sam's Club series, continued success of the BBQ Tour, and what should be a great Home Makeover show airing soon.

I'd like to see a continued and expanded emphasis on education. It speaks directly to the mission statement of KCBS and fulfills the requirement to maintain the 501C status that KCBS currently enjoys. To begin, I'd like to see KCBS partner with various culinary schools to introduce students to what BBQ truly is. In exchange for covering expenses and a small honorarium I'm sure we'd have no problem having qualified members apply for a position to spend a day talking to students at the CIA, Johnson and Wales etc... To continue the program for students interested I'd propose pairing them with teams nearby so that they could spend some time at contests and participate to the extent that each party was comfortable with. Not only would we be reaching future Chefs and influencing their thinking about what BBQ is and should be, we would be building relationships to continue that process in the future. I know what some people are thinking right now. Who gets to go to these schools to represent KCBS, or more directly..."Who gets paid?!". Simple answer, clear and objective qualifications are developed and printed in the BullSheet and online requesting qualified members to apply. The applications are reviewed by a committee and submitted to the BoD for approval.

Tarheel
10-27-2011, 10:06 AM
What??? :shock:
Exactly, I am so confussed.:doh:

Jorge
10-27-2011, 10:11 AM
On the 4-block running for the board, please answer the questions individually! It'd be unproductive if you all turn in the same answers and only the photographs change. I wish you all good luck and I look forward to seeing new faces and new voices on the board.

Roy, I appreciate all your concerns and your passion for this thing we do! You'll never be a trouble-maker in my opinion. It's good to have folks that stir up the bottom of the pot!

I think most people would be surprised at how little we have conferred, since we decided to run. Early on we discussed the major issues and found a lot of common ideas and goals. Since then there has been disagreement, and that was reassuring to me personally. I presented an idea I'm developing and had several potential issues brought to my attention. As a result I'll continue to develop the idea.

Jorge
10-27-2011, 10:12 AM
What??? :shock:

Exactly, I am so confussed.:doh:

Send it to Divemaster. He's the designated Billy Translator.:becky:

Jeff_in_KC
10-27-2011, 11:36 AM
My view as a candidate as far as what's positive that should be built upon starts with the willingness of the Board to discuss issues like adults and leave out the yelling, threats, etc. It was not productive for the organization and much of that has quieted down now and I think we're seeing some positive results. Although I believe it should have been done differently as far as the bid process and possibly opening the job up to membership (there's a lot of people struggling financially out there and maybe helping even one member with a project would have been nice), it's good to see we're finally getting into the current century with the scoring software. This is something that's WAY past due. As the software is developed, I hope the board can take a look at how we can better utilize technology to improve all of our systems. That might be Webcasts of board meetings and forums for not just reps but also one for organizers, judges, etc. There are definitely changes that can be added to the KCBS Web site that would make it more user friendly. Maybe we get an app for smartphones? How about better database systems so that anyone can log on any week throughout the year and see where they rank in KCBS standings?

Another area that needs improvement but has not yet been addressed much is training of organizers. Many are great at what they do but there are just as many that put on a contest because they think it sounds like a fun idea but they don't understand the culture. What does it REALLY take to put on a successful contest? I know. I put one on and I'm not too shy to say it's one of the best (mostly because of the volunteers Stan and I have). We cook so we do understand the culture and what cooks want. I also know what judges want to see and we try to make it just as much fun for them as we do for the cooks. We include them in everything we do as a contest. The incident in St. Louis a few weeks ago never should have happened and probably wouldn't if there had been a more thorough training process in place for organizers and a mentoring program. Hanging out at a competition to see what's done before you can put one on by yourself is nowhere good enough! Sure, St Louis is an extreme example. But how many times do you sign up for a contest with 30 or 40 teams, pay $250 to enter and find out the prize pool is only $4 or $5 thousand? How many do you go to where you don't get many of the services you sometimes take for granted because you are cooking some other really good ones? We have to make it a priority to educate organizers, especially with all of the new contests coming on the schedule these days.

I also like what's been done with the Sam's Club series but there need to be some big tweeks to the system before it launches next year. I would like to see the organization of each contest being opened up to an application process so that some of our great KCBS organizers have a shot at the job, not just board members. I know there were a couple involved but as an example, around KC, we have LOTS of really good organizers and I know two who were interested. Neither were given the opportunity and instead, Mike Lake, a board member, was brought in to do the job. I think board members should be excluded from the ability to apply for or be considered for those kind of roles, be it Sam's Club series or anything similar. Addidtionally, let's try to make the scheduling a little more weather-friendly! Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas in July were bad ideas! :-D I was one of the teams that suffered through that ordeal!

While all of this is going on, let's never forget what makes up the roots AND the backbone of KCBS - the smaller contests. We need to take a look at ways we can help promote and support these contests so that the norm is NOT Sam's Club, Smoke on the Water, the Royal, etc. Too many teams get their start at small events and to let them go without better support is a disservice to the entire organization.

Slamdunkpro
10-27-2011, 12:13 PM
Remember when I said you might not be my candidate?

You totally won me over with that post


Vote the FAB 4!

Tarheel
10-27-2011, 04:57 PM
See, there we go, there are some good things. I can feel the energy building across the country now. I agree with most everything you guys are saying too. I do believe that I run the best contest tho. Sorry Jeff.

There will always be room for improvement with any process. If you don't pay attention to it on a daily bases you get behind and then it gets really hard to catch up. But I also believe you can micro manage something to death too. Not to mention anything like pork collar or hair dryers. It is easy to get to far down in the weeds with things.

I too think that events like the Sams club events will help us grow but is the gain worth the cost. We do have to remember that the small contest is what keeps the lights on too. There will come a day when the board is going to have to say no not at this time. If that rubber stamp keeps running ramped with contest it will end up hurting the big picture.

Keep it coming guys, what do you think about requiring judges to cook with a team prior to judging? I myself am a little tired of 6's on appearance form that one or two judges that just got certified when I am getting 9's from the rest. I think I know how to put it in the box.

Roy:becky:

Slamdunkpro
10-27-2011, 05:07 PM
There will come a day when the board is going to have to say no not at this time. If that rubber stamp keeps running ramped with contest it will end up hurting the big picture.

We're seeing that now. KCBS says no and the organizer goes to one of the regional organizations.


Keep it coming guys, what do you think about requiring judges to cook with a team prior to judging?
Roy:becky:
I think it's as pointless as requiring cooks to judge a contest before they can cook.:boxing:

Rookie'48
10-27-2011, 06:00 PM
I would like to come up with a way to get more judges to hook up with more cooks. I think that cooking with a team should be part and parcel of the judging package. I know that I've introduced at least half a dozen judges to cooks so that the judge could cook for his/her Master's badge and I wonder what we can do to get more judges to know more cooks.

I'd also like to see more cooks in the judging tent so that they can hear the comments made between courses. Things like: "What did you think of rib #4? All I could taste was the sauce" or "Those chunks in #6's pork entry were all fat - he would have been better off not putting them in there" or "Wow! That has to be one of the best briskie slices I've had lately". Then you'll hear the "WHY" of the scores.

Tarheel
10-27-2011, 06:24 PM
I think it's as pointless as requiring cooks to judge a contest before they can cook.:boxing:[/QUOTE]

Come on now you don't think a judge could learn something from cooking with a cook? I will give you a prime example, judge cooking with a team for his masters, judged 30+ contest already, thought the organizer was paying for the meat. That is what your entry fee is for isn't it? And you should have seen him after awards with the score sheet. Sounded just like a cook.

It can be an eye opening experience for most all of them. And I do believe it should happen sooner than later.

I have tried a couple of things trying to get judges to go out and visit with cooks and talk to them. We have lots of judges that will stop by and see us at a contest. Most of them are not bad. Just the ones who give me a 5 or 6 in appearance, them I want to execute.:heh: Just kidding.

At my contest I strongly encourage the judges if they give a 6 or less they need to fill out a comment card. I also don't let them take any food from there entries. I have the cooks provide goodie bags of meat for them to take home. Thats one of the other pots I stir:twisted:.

Leatherheadiowa
10-27-2011, 07:08 PM
See, there we go, there are some good things. I can feel the energy building across the country now. I agree with most everything you guys are saying too. I do believe that I run the best contest tho. Sorry Jeff.

There will always be room for improvement with any process. If you don't pay attention to it on a daily bases you get behind and then it gets really hard to catch up. But I also believe you can micro manage something to death too. Not to mention anything like pork collar or hair dryers. It is easy to get to far down in the weeds with things.

I too think that events like the Sams club events will help us grow but is the gain worth the cost. We do have to remember that the small contest is what keeps the lights on too. There will come a day when the board is going to have to say no not at this time. If that rubber stamp keeps running ramped with contest it will end up hurting the big picture.

Keep it coming guys, what do you think about requiring judges to cook with a team prior to judging? I myself am a little tired of 6's on appearance form that one or two judges that just got certified when I am getting 9's from the rest. I think I know how to put it in the box.

Roy:becky:
Requiring would be tough. Anytime you mandate something you run into problems. Having someone like Dave Compton at a judging class to "highly recommend" that judges cook with a team and then have a list of teams willing to take on an apprentice for a contest would be a more productive means. I think that having a database of teams willing to take a judge on if it helps with scoring for them and everyone else would be great! Sign us up at Butler Center BBQ!

Leatherheadiowa
10-27-2011, 07:12 PM
I think it's as pointless as requiring cooks to judge a contest before they can cook.:boxing:

Come on now you don't think a judge could learn something from cooking with a cook? I will give you a prime example, judge cooking with a team for his masters, judged 30+ contest already, thought the organizer was paying for the meat. That is what your entry fee is for isn't it? And you should have seen him after awards with the score sheet. Sounded just like a cook.

It can be an eye opening experience for most all of them. And I do believe it should happen sooner than later.

I have tried a couple of things trying to get judges to go out and visit with cooks and talk to them. We have lots of judges that will stop by and see us at a contest. Most of them are not bad. Just the ones who give me a 5 or 6 in
appearance, them I want to execute.:heh: Just kidding.

At my contest I strongly encourage the judges if they give a 6 or less they need to fill out a comment card. I also don't let them take any food from there entries. I have the cooks provide goodie bags of meat for them to take home. Thats one of the other pots I stir:twisted:.[/QUOTE]
I think I metioned your amazing comment card recommendation in another post and I love it! I like to know what I need to work on and what I did right. Both are equally important to me. Recently in Dubuque we tried a new product and in the category that we tried it in we scored very well. I wish a judge would have mentioned why they scored it so high.

bam
10-27-2011, 07:32 PM
:clap2: If only folks would vote if not same chit different day.

FatBoyz
10-28-2011, 05:48 AM
What??? :shock:lol it all makes denver in my head lol

BoneDaddy's
10-28-2011, 06:39 AM
I will vote for anyone who agrees to ban judges from bringing ziplocks and coolers into the judging tent! Kidding, but not really!

Tarheel
10-28-2011, 08:45 AM
I would like to come up with a way to get more judges to hook up with more cooks. I think that cooking with a team should be part and parcel of the judging package. I know that I've introduced at least half a dozen judges to cooks so that the judge could cook for his/her Master's badge and I wonder what we can do to get more judges to know more cooks.

I'd also like to see more cooks in the judging tent so that they can hear the comments made between courses. Things like: "What did you think of rib #4? All I could taste was the sauce" or "Those chunks in #6's pork entry were all fat - he would have been better off not putting them in there" or "Wow! That has to be one of the best briskie slices I've had lately". Then you'll hear the "WHY" of the scores.

I have encouraged cooks to do the very same thing. If you want to know what others are doing go judge! I also do beleve in the comment cards and think judges need to provide that feedback to the cooks so they know they need to improve. I have changed the way I do things because of what judges say they like or don't like.

Leatherheadiowa
10-28-2011, 08:52 AM
I have encouraged cooks to do the very same thing. If you want to know what others are doing go judge! I also do beleve in the comment cards and think judges need to provide that feedback to the cooks so they know they need to improve. I have changed the way I do things because of what judges say they like or don't like.

Tarheel, as a cook would you support using the comment cards for scores of 6 or less and 9's? Personally, I usually know what we didn't do right but, when we knock it out of the park with 9's I want to know what it was about that entry that made it a 9.
What do you think about making the comment cards go both ways?

Tarheel
10-28-2011, 08:56 AM
Good morning BBQ Fans!! It is going to be a wonderful day!!

We have started the ball rolling here with some positive feedback from some of the candidates. Lets keep it going this morning.

The KCBS has been a non profit organization from the beginning and been governed by volunteers. Do you think it would be better served by being a for profit company and run as a business? From what I understand we have come close a couple of times to violating the non profit status with too much money in the bank.

What do you think guys?

Diva
10-28-2011, 09:35 AM
A CBJ came up to us in Excelsior and asked us if he could cook with us to get his Masters. I told him sure, but there were a few things he had to do in order to accomplish this:
1) Pitch in on expenses
2) Get there in time to set up
3) Stay all night
4) Help around camp during the day (i.e. dishes, trash, etc.)
5) Help tear down

He looked like I ran over his mother with my car. I asked him what the problem was and he replied: "I just wanted to get there after work on Friday and stay for a few hours." :shocked:

Not happenin'.

Ron_L
10-28-2011, 10:02 AM
We've had two judges cook with us, one this year and one last year. We didn't ask for help with expenses and didn't require them to stay overnight since we really don't have room for another person, but both helped with setup and teardown, and both were a huge help throughout the competition. The stayed until we were ready to get some sleep on Friday night and were there when I woke up in the morning, so they really didn't miss much by not sleeping there.

If you were to ask either of them what they thought of the experience I know that both will tell you that it opened their eyes about what we go through as cooks. They also helped us out a lot with feedback, suggestions, etc. One of them has asked if he can cook with us once a year and we'd gladly have him.

Jorge
10-28-2011, 10:06 AM
Good morning BBQ Fans!! It is going to be a wonderful day!!

We have started the ball rolling here with some positive feedback from some of the candidates. Lets keep it going this morning.

The KCBS has been a non profit organization from the beginning and been governed by volunteers. Do you think it would be better served by being a for profit company and run as a business? From what I understand we have come close a couple of times to violating the non profit status with too much money in the bank.

What do you think guys?

Several friends have suggested to me that this is what they believe should happen. I disagree.

Making money, and fulfilling the current mission statement don't have to be mutually exclusive. Looking at grants and existing education programs, it seems clear to me that a greater emphasis needs to be placed on those areas. I believe there is a greater value to society in general and KCBS in particular if we focus on the existing goals.

I do agree that KCBS would benefit from being run more like a business. Sound fiscal and marketing principles would serve KCBS well as a not for profit organization. The way it appears to me is that most of the money is banked, little is invested in infrastructure or in any other way to benefit the organization in the future.

I'd prefer to see less time spent on minutia and more time spent developing a vision for the future, putting attainable and visible benchmarks in place for membership to track progress. Elected leadership needs to have the time and resource to lead and plan, rather than manage.

If elected, and KCBS is converted to a strictly for profit entity I will resign. I'm willing to serve the membership, and do my best to promote and preserve BBQ as the current mission statement mandates. I currently run my own business, and will launch a separate company within the next year with partners. I'm willing to spend my time on an organization that I believe in, and serve like minded members to accomplish a common goal. I have zero interest in spending more time, chasing money.

Jorge
10-28-2011, 10:12 AM
Require judges to cook with a team? No.

I think KCBS could do more to encourage that practice, but I don't see it as being practical to require it. I don't want to be responsible for saddling a team with someone that just may not be suited to the task, that is unwilling to understand boundaries etc...

I think it would be a great practice for KCBS to maintain a database of teams willing to host a judge, and make that information available to judges interested in the opportunity.

Rookie'48
10-28-2011, 10:16 AM
From what I understand we have come close a couple of times to violating the non profit status with too much money in the bank. What do you think guys?

If we're going to remain a charitable, non-profit organization then we need to keep a very close eye on where our money goes. Dispersing money always has the chance to corrupt both the giver and the taker of those funds.

I think that each and every charitable disbursement should get a complete top to bottom review every time a request for funds is submitted. Just because we have donated in the past does not guarantee a check this year.

I told him sure, but there were a few things he had to do in order to accomplish this:
1) Pitch in on expenses
2) Get there in time to set up
3) Stay all night
4) Help around camp during the day (i.e. dishes, trash, etc.)
5) Help tear down

He looked like I ran over his mother with my car. I asked him what the problem was and he replied: "I just wanted to get there after work on Friday and stay for a few hours." :shocked:

Not happenin'.

Steph, I'm 100% in favor of points 2 through 5 above. #1 I'm not too sure of, although letting the CBJ know just how much this hobby costs and having him/her chip in for dinner / drinks, etc is more than fair.

The part about just showing up for a few hours is what really gripes my arse! I'm of the persuasion that to "cook with a team" means a hell of a lot more than just a few hours on Friday night when everyone is laughing, eating and drinking! How can some one find out what comp cooking is all about unless they do the whole thing???

Tarheel
10-28-2011, 10:32 AM
Tarheel, as a cook would you support using the comment cards for scores of 6 or less and 9's? Personally, I usually know what we didn't do right but, when we knock it out of the park with 9's I want to know what it was about that entry that made it a 9.
What do you think about making the comment cards go both ways?

They do go both ways, I have gotten them for both, the 9 is usually good enough to tell me you liked it tho.

If you give me a six I want to know what you thought was wrong with it. I have turned in some entries that we thought had a good chance at being in the top 10 only to have a couple of judges give it 6's or 7's. That is when I need to know what you were tasting that you didn't like. We also know when it just isnt going to work.

Had a cooker quit on me in Dillard this year with the ribs in it. Didn't realize it till it was too late to get them done. No doubt they were tough. Still got 2 9's on tenderness. I know they were tough so what am I gona get from those judges when I do get it just right?

Tarheel
10-28-2011, 11:28 AM
[QUOTE=Rookie'48;1832294]If we're going to remain a charitable, non-profit organization then we need to keep a very close eye on where our money goes. Dispersing money always has the chance to corrupt both the giver and the taker of those funds.

I think that each and every charitable disbursement should get a complete top to bottom review every time a request for funds is submitted. Just because we have donated in the past does not guarantee a check this year.


I think it was more about the fact we had too much money for a non-profit in the bank. Not up to date on all of that but I guess you can only have so much in the bank and we were approching that limit.

Tarheel
10-28-2011, 11:34 AM
Require judges to cook with a team? No.

I think KCBS could do more to encourage that practice, but I don't see it as being practical to require it. I don't want to be responsible for saddling a team with someone that just may not be suited to the task, that is unwilling to understand boundaries etc...

I think it would be a great practice for KCBS to maintain a database of teams willing to host a judge, and make that information available to judges interested in the opportunity.

You don't think that requiring them to cook with a team would weed out some of those who are just in it for the food and are not committed to excellence in BBQ. It would still work the same way, they have to find a team willing to let them cook with them. I want the judges to be just as committed to this as I am.

YankeeBBQ
10-28-2011, 11:50 AM
A CBJ came up to us in Excelsior and asked us if he could cook with us to get his Masters. I told him sure, but there were a few things he had to do in order to accomplish this:
1) Pitch in on expenses
2) Get there in time to set up
3) Stay all night
4) Help around camp during the day (i.e. dishes, trash, etc.)
5) Help tear down

He looked like I ran over his mother with my car. I asked him what the problem was and he replied: "I just wanted to get there after work on Friday and stay for a few hours." :shocked:

Not happenin'.

If the judge took you up on that and you won a bunch of money were you planning to split it with him/her ?

Jorge
10-28-2011, 12:21 PM
You don't think that requiring them to cook with a team would weed out some of those who are just in it for the food and are not committed to excellence in BBQ. It would still work the same way, they have to find a team willing to let them cook with them. I want the judges to be just as committed to this as I am.

I think we'd be just as likely to weed out some judges that know and understand the rules, and make their best effort to judge consistently and fairly by imposing such a rule. Cooking for 24+ hours isn't for everyone.

As far as judges that are in it just for the food....I absolutely support the decision that I understand that you made regarding coolers at your contest. Teams and judges can vote with their feet, and wallets in coming years if your stance remains the same. As a cook, I know that I'd appreciate the fact that you gave it some thought and took action. Over time I think that your pool of judges will become above average because you WILL cull those that aren't there to do the job asked, and expected of them. As I've said before, I think 99% of the complaints are about 1 % of the judges. Cooks talk, and if a contest has continuing issues interest dies off.

Personally, I've never understood the desire to take leftover and partially eaten food home. If a judge takes a fair sample, and gives their best effort to render a fair score I don't care what they do with the food in front of them. If they aren't doing that, it should be an issue addressed by the table captain and Rep.

Leatherheadiowa
10-28-2011, 12:58 PM
Good morning BBQ Fans!! It is going to be a wonderful day!!

We have started the ball rolling here with some positive feedback from some of the candidates. Lets keep it going this morning.

The KCBS has been a non profit organization from the beginning and been governed by volunteers. Do you think it would be better served by being a for profit company and run as a business? From what I understand we have come close a couple of times to violating the non profit status with too much money in the bank.

What do you think guys?
I think you raise a good point about the tax status of the KCBS. I strongly believe that if the organization has an accurate budget with bylaws that dictate
what amounts of funds can be carried over including: amount in rainy day, relief funds, and other specific line items it wouldn't be an issue. If you should have an abundance of funds that would draw attention from the IRS then a more detailed budget and more philanthropy may be a good idea.
Turning the organization into a business would then turn every member now into stock holders and that opens up a HUGE can of legal worms.
I would suggest that if having too much in savings is an issue then maybe invest in recruitment and training for quality reps where there are shortages, add funding to youth activities, build an online education database( like Dave Compton suggested), and support the other state and regional bbq societies better.

ique
10-28-2011, 01:12 PM
I also like what's been done with the Sam's Club series but there need to be some big tweeks to the system before it launches next year. I would like to see the organization of each contest being opened up to an application process so that some of our great KCBS organizers have a shot at the job, not just board members.

Yeah there is something wrong when the board members snap up all the good "jobs" like that. Anyone on a board or other elective office should really avoid anything that appears to be favoritism.

Diva
10-28-2011, 01:48 PM
If the judge took you up on that and you won a bunch of money were you planning to split it with him/her ?

It wouldn't have to be a bunch of money. Whatever percentage we split expenses, we'd split the winnings. That's only fair.

Scottie
10-28-2011, 01:49 PM
Roy, I can offer a bit of insider on this. I don't think it is any surprise that I have received Grants for my foundation the last 3 years. For some reason KCBS does not want to advertise that. I am not sure why? But I would think that they would want ot be out there telling people that we are trying to cure cancer, trying to cure hunger, trying to take care of inner-city youths.... KCBS is not just about Extreme Makeover and whatever else they can get the name in lights. All of these other well deserving requests for Grants should be highlighted and shown brightly for all those to see.

If I am shooitng myself in the foot for discussing this. Then so be it. I am not in anyway taking away from KCBS, just would rather they promote what they are doing and trying to assist others. But I am not on the Board and I can only appreciate and thank them for the support over the years. KCBS does a lot of good things, giving out Grants and scholarships is a tremendous thing that they do. Could they add more funds to Philantrophy and take away some of the "slush" funds that they have created? I'll let others decide on that...

My understanding is that they are going to changing their application process around a bit. I don't have any problem with that, just don't freeze out some of the 501c3's that they have supported over the years because they want new blood. I want to be awarded Grants because of what we do, not because we were a token for that year and not the next.

When we submit our application, I know personally I give them more information than is required. I do not want anyone to come along and say that I got favortism for whatever reason. If I am a legit 501c3, then as a foundation I have nothing to hide. So when the board or Philantrophy Chair requests more information from me, I don't have a problem with that. So I know that they do go over the Grant Requests with a fine tooth comb.

I am proud of what we as a foundation has done in trying to assist others. Just as I would hope KCBS would feel the same. I hope that I am allowed to apply for another Grant next year from the Board. I hope that they realize what we are doing is to try and make a difference. Granted we are tiny compared to other national cancer research foundations. But I like to look at it as we are tailored for BBQ. It effects us all and if it hasn't, it will.

So thanks to the KCBS Board of Directors. They receive a lot of heat. Even from me... :icon_blush: But in the end, I truly believe that they want what is best for KCBS and us cooks. They are disfunctional at times, but so is my family. Doesn't mean at the end of the day that we don't support each other.

Cancer Sucks!

Scottie Johnson
KCBS # 7644
Corliss Johnson Memorial Foundation





[QUOTE=Rookie'48;1832294]If we're going to remain a charitable, non-profit organization then we need to keep a very close eye on where our money goes. Dispersing money always has the chance to corrupt both the giver and the taker of those funds.

I think that each and every charitable disbursement should get a complete top to bottom review every time a request for funds is submitted. Just because we have donated in the past does not guarantee a check this year.


I think it was more about the fact we had too much money for a non-profit in the bank. Not up to date on all of that but I guess you can only have so much in the bank and we were approching that limit.

Tarheel
10-28-2011, 02:09 PM
[QUOTE=Scottie;1832529]
So thanks to the KCBS Board of Directors. They receive a lot of heat. Even from me... :icon_blush: But in the end, I truly believe that they want what is best for KCBS and us cooks. They are disfunctional at times, but so is my family. Doesn't mean at the end of the day that we don't support each other.

Cancer Sucks!

Scottie Johnson
KCBS # 7644
Corliss Johnson Memorial Foundation

Yes, they do a lot of good things that most don't see or even look for. Some folks can't see the big picture. And yes I to have given them my fair share of heat as well. And the board says:amen:!!! But I will also be one to stand up and praise them when they do good. I know that what they are doing is not an easy job and most of them have figured out it is a thankless job most of the time too.

So for you candidates out there if you can't take the heat don't get in the kitchen. Cause I will still be here to stir the pot and I am sure Scottie will stroke it once and a while too.

Jeff_in_KC
10-28-2011, 02:32 PM
Tmi.

tmcmaster
10-28-2011, 02:42 PM
...what do you think about requiring judges to cook with a team prior to judging?.

Roy:becky:

The first candidate with the 'cajones' to stand for that gets my vote.:clap2:

Jeff_in_KC
10-28-2011, 03:03 PM
The first candidate with the 'cajones' to stand for that gets my vote.:clap2:

I don't disagree with the CBJs in line for Master Judge having to do this (and not just hang out on Friday night) but it would be a logistical nightmare to have to require ALL judges to "cook" with a team. And would you grandfather all of the current judges? There are many thousands of them.

I'm not positive what folks are trying to accomplish by wanting CBJs to cook with a team first. Understanding what we as cooks do and spend is not the issue. There are hundreds of great judges who have never cooked with a team. If you're just trying to make them understand what we do and what it takes, I believe a majority know already. Cooking with you and knowing you spent $800 to be there doesn't justify them giving you higher scores OR to take their job any more seriously. As we have improved over the last seven years we've been doing this, not one judge has cooked with us and no one I know of has given us a better score because they understand our side of things.

The important thing here is to build relationships with judges, just as Dave Compton proposes. It's also urgent that we put a continuing education and/or refresher program into place that allows judges to keep up to date with current rules and clarifications of said rules. It's also important that we start up a judges forum, like the Reps have. These will allow judges to be more a part of things in KCBS and maybe the end result is that they feel wanted and that they are an important part of the process, and thus, the judges people think don't take their jobs seriously enough will actually do so.

Jorge
10-28-2011, 03:16 PM
The first candidate with the 'cajones' to stand for that gets my vote.:clap2:

Based purely on numbers and admin costs I've got a problem with this. KCBS trained approximately 2,800 judges this year. If you assume that pairing a judge with a team, recording their completion of the process, etc....taking between 30 and 60 seconds you are looking at 23-46 man hours. Now if you want to figure out how to bring existing judges into compliance...

Simple cost/benefit analysis for me. I just don't see enough upside, regardless of how I look at it. If you've got the problems solved let me know. I'll support it if you can show me a realistic way to make the benefits outweigh the costs. Otherwise I've got to say no.

Tarheel
10-28-2011, 03:40 PM
I don't disagree with the CBJs in line for Master Judge having to do this (and not just hang out on Friday night) but it would be a logistical nightmare to have to require ALL judges to "cook" with a team. And would you grandfather all of the current judges? There are many thousands of them.

I'm not positive what folks are trying to accomplish by wanting CBJs to cook with a team first. Understanding what we as cooks do and spend is not the issue. There are hundreds of great judges who have never cooked with a team. If you're just trying to make them understand what we do and what it takes, I believe a majority know already. Cooking with you and knowing you spent $800 to be there doesn't justify them giving you higher scores OR to take their job any more seriously. As we have improved over the last seven years we've been doing this, not one judge has cooked with us and no one I know of has given us a better score because they understand our side of things.

The important thing here is to build relationships with judges, just as Dave Compton proposes. It's also urgent that we put a continuing education and/or refresher program into place that allows judges to keep up to date with current rules and clarifications of said rules. It's also important that we start up a judges forum, like the Reps have. These will allow judges to be more a part of things in KCBS and maybe the end result is that they feel wanted and that they are an important part of the process, and thus, the judges people think don't take their jobs seriously enough will actually do so.

Jeff, I am one that thinks judges should cook with a team earlier, I do believe it will give them a better understanding of the whole system and all aspects of the cooking process. Understanding how much it takes to do this I would hope would give them a littler more respect for it as well. I can't understand what an indivuale goes thru untill I have been in his shoes.

I would also agree that we need more ways becides that to get them involved and we need better training and they need to be held accountable for there scores as well. I have said before there needs to be accountablility on there part. If they are consitantly scoring low or high there needs to be some sort of recorse for the table captain and rep both to use.

Jeff_in_KC
10-28-2011, 03:54 PM
Jeff, I am one that thinks judges should cook with a team earlier, I do believe it will give them a better understanding of the whole system and all aspects of the cooking process. Understanding how much it takes to do this I would hope would give them a littler more respect for it as well. I can't understand what an indivuale goes thru untill I have been in his shoes.

I would also agree that we need more ways becides that to get them involved and we need better training and they need to be held accountable for there scores as well. I have said before there needs to be accountablility on there part. If they are consitantly scoring low or high there needs to be some sort of recorse for the table captain and rep both to use.

I respect your opinion but I think there are better ways to accomplish what you're asking to have accomplished. How about having as part of CBJ training classes a cook come in and present a summary of what it takes to get ready for a competition. To be quite honest, once a team arrives at a contest site, MOST of the work for the contest is already over and there's no way to impress that upon a judge other that to tell him, something that could be handled at CBJ classes. Having a judge stay up half the night at a contest, watch me stress out and sweat while cleaning up isn't going to make anyone better understand. I think the right approach as part of a CBJ class would have the same effect. Have the team presenting add photos on a slide show, talk about the 15 to 20 hours spent before even arriving (searching for meat, buying rubs, sauces, etc, trimming, packing, loading, laundry, and the list goes on), a breakdown of the cost involved and so forth. Then the CBJ instructors come in and tell the trainees "We don't tell you all of this as sort of a sob story. We tell you these things because, as you've just seen, the competitions you will be judging are costly, time consuming and physically and mentally draining for those who cook them and they deserve your absolute best efforts and fair assessments of their product they present to you. You, as CBJs, are important links in the entire process so it it vital that you take your jobs seriously. Let's get busy and learn to be CBJs!"

I'd rather see something to that effect at all CBJ classes and maybe make a video of the presentation and speech by trainers for the new online forum I know CBJs will get so that current CBJs can watch it! :becky:

Rookie'48
10-28-2011, 06:46 PM
I still think that cooking with a team is a very good thing - and that every judge should do it at least a couple of times with different teams.

There's no amount of video that can show what "crunch time" really is. I don't think that anyone, anywhere, can adequately describe the near chaos of building and running boxes every half hour with only a ten minute window to make it.

There's also no way to describe the camaraderie that goes on at a contest or the way that you will feel when you see a friend get a call.

You might be able to distill all of this down into a video or a presentation - but it ain't gonna be the same as being there :thumb:.

Jeff_in_KC
10-28-2011, 07:07 PM
I still think that cooking with a team is a very good thing - and that every judge should do it at least a couple of times with different teams.

There's no amount of video that can show what "crunch time" really is. I don't think that anyone, anywhere, can adequately describe the near chaos of building and running boxes every half hour with only a ten minute window to make it.

There's also no way to describe the camaraderie that goes on at a contest or the way that you will feel when you see a friend get a call.

You might be able to distill all of this down into a video or a presentation - but it ain't gonna be the same as being there :thumb:.

I agree with you, Dave, that just cooking with a team is good but you are one of the best judges there is out there. Do you REALLY think it would make a big difference in scores and how seriously some judges take this just to have them cook with a team once? I think the point could be gotten across with a little extra and thinking outside the box kind of training. That being said, it never hurts to host a judge, simply to build relationships. But requiring it of ALL judges would be a nightmare.

Rookie'48
10-28-2011, 08:41 PM
That being said, it never hurts to host a judge, simply to build relationships. But requiring it of ALL judges would be a nightmare.

That's a very good reason to offer some type of award to those judges who take it upon themselves to search out and find a team that is willing to do this.

Right now we have a system where you can take the CBJ class and never cook with a team at all unless you wish to get that Master's badge. You take the class once and pay your dues for the next ten years and you're still a "qualified" CBJ ten years later - even if you have forgotten everything that you were taught in class and have only judged once in that ten year period :crazy:.

I'm all about getting the judges ALL of the tools that they need in order to become the very best judges in our sport / hobby / obsession. I want to see the KCBS CBJs held in the highest esteem every place where there's a BBQ contest.

I'd like to see judges and cooks shooting together towards a common goal of being the best of the best in the world of BBQ.

And I'm more than willing to hear any and all suggestions on how we can do this :thumb:.

Tarheel
10-29-2011, 08:53 AM
I respect your opinion but I think there are better ways to accomplish what you're asking to have accomplished. How about having as part of CBJ training classes a cook come in and present a summary of what it takes to get ready for a competition. To be quite honest, once a team arrives at a contest site, MOST of the work for the contest is already over and there's no way to impress that upon a judge other that to tell him, something that could be handled at CBJ classes. Having a judge stay up half the night at a contest, watch me stress out and sweat while cleaning up isn't going to make anyone better understand. I think the right approach as part of a CBJ class would have the same effect. Have the team presenting add photos on a slide show, talk about the 15 to 20 hours spent before even arriving (searching for meat, buying rubs, sauces, etc, trimming, packing, loading, laundry, and the list goes on), a breakdown of the cost involved and so forth. Then the CBJ instructors come in and tell the trainees "We don't tell you all of this as sort of a sob story. We tell you these things because, as you've just seen, the competitions you will be judging are costly, time consuming and physically and mentally draining for those who cook them and they deserve your absolute best efforts and fair assessments of their product they present to you. You, as CBJs, are important links in the entire process so it it vital that you take your jobs seriously. Let's get busy and learn to be CBJs!"

I'd rather see something to that effect at all CBJ classes and maybe make a video of the presentation and speech by trainers for the new online forum I know CBJs will get so that current CBJs can watch it! :becky:


I can see that, I have helped at several CBJ classes over the years, one of my requirements for helping is that I get to talk to them for 5 min. to explain those things and to answer questions. I have done it in Lakeland for the past several years but Steven doesn't seem to like that. I think way to much infaces is put on looking for the things that can dq a cook in some of the classes and the trays are out of date. Have been for years. but that is another subject.

But I can also see the requirement for judges to spend time talking to cooks at an event. I don't think it would be hard to start a pilot program that cost nothing and is tracked with the judges book where it has to be signed by a cook team. Something that requires them to get out and talk to teams to get that signature. There could still be a list of teams willing to partisipate in the program listed on the judges forum that needs to be developed. They would have to have those signatures prior to a designated number of contest. It could be an intermediat level of judge that has that completed. They would be responsoable for showing the signature to a rep at a contest who enters it into a tracking program.

mobow
10-29-2011, 09:59 AM
I am not in favor of requiring judges to cook with a team. But, if you do require it I think you should also require teams to host a judge to help remove the burden of findingna team that i's willing. But, I do not see any advantage of a judge understanding the hardship of cooking helping them be more consistent in scoring. My experience cooking with a team was a very positive experience but I actually discovered it was easier to do than I had thought. As far a judging I don't care how much time or money or lack of sleep the team has invested. It is irrelevant. All that is relevant is the quality of the turn in and that i's where I think time and energy should be spent. Helping all judges be consistent on what we are judging. Also,everyone i's not the social butterfly like Dave Compton. :becky: Keith

Rookie'48
10-29-2011, 05:22 PM
Also,everyone i's not the social butterfly like Dave Compton. :becky: Keith

I'll plead guilty as charged to that one, Keith :thumb:.

And I love being out & about visiting with the teams on Friday and staying for the awards on Saturday. It helps that I'm retired and don't have to be at work when I'd rather be at a comp and I realize that a lot of folks (ok, most folks :rolleyes:) don't have that opportunity :becky:. Most of the time I'd rather be cooking instead of visiting but seeing as how that's physically imposable any more I'll just be a social butterfly :bow:.

One of my life's little pleasures has been to be standing next to a team that has had a judge cook with them at that contest. The judge has seen every box before turn in. He has tasted the very same meat that was turned in. He/she has mentally judged those boxes and given them the score that they feel was earned for each box, to the very best of that judge's ability.

And when the score sheets are passed around the team and that judge reads the scores and says: "What the fark were those judges thinkin'? Are they crazy???" that's what you call an "Ah ha!" moment. How can it be that the very same box that he just gave a 9-9-8 to came back as a 7-7-7 ?

That's when said judge thinks long and hard about what the cook is trying to accomplish and scoring in general. I think that this is something that some judges either never knew or have forgotten. And I think that is something that we, as judges, should keep in mind.

Fat Freddy
10-29-2011, 06:54 PM
WOW almost sounds like being a judge is a bad, evil thing.

I started judging backyard contests and enjoyed it, became a certified judge and loved it. Do I still have a lot to learn, absolutely I do, but I do try to learn and am not afraid to ask. I then decided to try my hands at competing. I have learned even more and I love it too. But I have done these things because I WANTED TO, not because I was required.

Do I think ALL judges need a refresher course? and do would I like more info whether email or whatever on rule changes or clarifications? A big YES to both. But to say a person has to cook with a team just to become a judge I disagree with. For one many people dont want to cook or have any desire to learn that aspect but they take the judging very seriously. Also who is to determine what teams have judge prospects help them? If all teams were not involved then things are not fair for the competing teams. I mean many teams teach classes and earn money teaching people their techniques but now it is being suggested that someone that wants to be a judge can by a KCBS requirement cook with a team and learn that teams techniques???? I could be wrong but I would think that teams would hold back when a "stranger" is in their cooking area and that would put those teams at a disadvantage. :idea: If I am wrong, I am a certified judge can I PICK which teams I want to cook with surely I can learn something from them.

Again I have no problem with helping judges learn but I feel that judges are being slammed a bit much.

I wonder how a KCBS contest would go without any judges and just cooks?

Rookie'48
10-29-2011, 07:37 PM
WOW almost sounds like being a judge is a bad, evil thing. Nope, not at all! I don't think that anyone has said that (yet, anyway :becky:).

Do I think ALL judges need a refresher course? and do would I like more info whether email or whatever on rule changes or clarifications? A big YES to both. Yes, yes, yes - continuing education will help us all!

But to say a person has to cook with a team just to become a judge I disagree with. I agree that no one should be forced to do that although anyone who WANTS to should be able to and be recognized for it.

I could be wrong but I would think that teams would hold back when a "stranger" is in their cooking area and that would put those teams at a disadvantage. I'm not real sure about that because most of the "secrets" are in the rubs, injections and sauces not in the process itself. But if part of the process is part of the "secret" then they either shouldn't have the judge there or just not let him/her see the "voo-doo". Also, the primary "secret" is consistency - and you only get that with practice, practice, practice.


I wonder how a KCBS contest would go without any judges and just cooks? Then they'd just call it an IBCA contest :-D.


Notice that I'm stressing that cooking with a team in voluntary on both the judges' and the cooks' part. But I think that it's a good thing to do.

Tarheel
10-30-2011, 08:13 PM
Well I think we have got the judge thing stired up good.There are some options and we can all agree that some of those options need to done sooner rather than later.

Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.:shock:

Ron_L
10-30-2011, 08:22 PM
And when the score sheets are passed around the team and that judge reads the scores and says: "What the fark were those judges thinkin'? Are they crazy???" that's what you call an "Ah ha!" moment. How can it be that the very same box that he just gave a 9-9-8 to came back as a 7-7-7 ?


That's exactly what happened both time that we had a judge cook with us :-D Normally it is me saying that :becky: We saw one of the judges at a competition a couple of weeks later and he told us that he couldn't sleep for three days after the competition because he was thinking about the scores.

We've known both the these guys for a while, and while I haven't judged with either of them, I am confident that they are good judges. Did cooking with us change the way that they scored? Probably not, but it got them thinking about it and opened their eyes.

I haven't read every post in this thread or the other BOD election threads, but one thing that is being discussed at the Great Lakes BBQ Association Forum is how changes in the CBJ class over the years effects scoring.

One of the guys brought up this point...

The first thing I see is that the KCBS is no longer giving a starting point and asking to mark down/up from there. That has been the case since at least 2009 when we held our judging class in Royal Oak. For point of reference, when I took the CBJ class in 2006 we were told to start at 6 and go up/down from there. The reason for not giving a starting point is it puts in the mind of a judge that is the number. Mike Lake has said that when they used 9 as the starting point KCBS saw a record number of 180's, when they used the 6 they saw a record number of low scores...


To me, the change from giving a starting point leaves judges without a reference, and i think that's why we see scores all over the board. Plus, you have judges who learned to judge using 9 as a reference, judges who learned using 6 as a reference and newer judges who don't use any reference. That by itself can cause a big difference. I think the one thing that would help is yearly renewals for judges that includes a short refresher course and test that can be taken on line. If a judge doesn't complete the course their CBJ status is revoked. Organizers would have to verify current status for CBJs, but that could also be done on line.

Leatherheadiowa
10-30-2011, 08:44 PM
Well I think we have got the judge thing stired up good.There are some options and we can all agree that some of those options need to done sooner rather than later.

Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.:shock:

I think that sanctioning needs to be closely examined. It was brought to my attention that in the past few years KCBS has sanctioned contests here in the Iowa area on identical dates and these contests now split the number of
competitors and judges. I also know that some contests knowingly distort their accomodations and available amenities and at some point KCBS needs to help correct these issues when they have been reported to KCBS. When sanctioning is requested an indepth inquiry needs to be made for inaugural events and for repeat events the BOD needs to make sure past issues have been resolved.
I am working with a contest organizer on a newly sanctioned contest. Having
been to her unsanctioned event that was governed by KCBS rules and was very successful I have been helping to guide her as to what services and amenities will be the best received and will make her virgin KCBS contest a
good one. She and I have carefully examined a bunch of, What if this happens? and When this happens what will you do, type scenarios.
Flooding the market has never worked for an organization that wanted to grow, keep people engaged, and yet have some sense of honor in belonging.
As an example, Ducks Unlimited used to have a chapter in every county and that chapter's events were exclusive to that area. Now Ducks Unlimited will allow a chapter on every corner and now members are asked to choose between which fundraisers to host, which to attend, how much to give, and where the struggle for leadership will end.
Finally, protecting the contests that have been proven winners, and closely
screening and double checking those that want to host need to be a priority in the future of the KCBS.

Muzzlebrake
10-30-2011, 08:54 PM
How is requiring a judge to cook with a team benefit the team? Most cooks keep their recipes and processes guarded to put it mildly. Why would they want to give a stranger access to them?
Many cooks also teach classes, very few do 1 on 1 training like is being mentioned here. What do you think that would be worth? If a judge really wants to find out what it takes they can sign up for a class and spend thier money like anyone else. There are plenty of classes that are run on a simulated competition schedule.
I do think as some of you have mentioned, the CBJ class needs to be completely revamped. The current class is not helping anyone and is basically just a buy a badge program

Tarheel
10-31-2011, 08:04 AM
How is requiring a judge to cook with a team benefit the team? Most cooks keep their recipes and processes guarded to put it mildly. Why would they want to give a stranger access to them?
Many cooks also teach classes, very few do 1 on 1 training like is being mentioned here. What do you think that would be worth? If a judge really wants to find out what it takes they can sign up for a class and spend thier money like anyone else. There are plenty of classes that are run on a simulated competition schedule.
I do think as some of you have mentioned, the CBJ class needs to be completely revamped. The current class is not helping anyone and is basically just a buy a badge program

Cooks don't have to give secrets away when hosting a judge, all of my rubs, injections and sauces are made up ahead so they would not have a clue what is in them. Teams that are willing to allow judges to observe know what they will and will not let them see. It is not something that a judges has to be standing over your shoulder every minite. It is a time to get to know them, what there concept or vision is of the bbq they have been tasting and for them to get to know the cook and his ideas and visions for bbq as well. It is so a judge that does not cook competitively sees the extra effort and detail that goes into producing a product for competition and how diffrent it can be from just throwing it on the grill.

will it increase the scores they give probably not. Will it make them think about it more and be more attentive to there job, hopefully so.

If a judges is trying to decide is it a 7 or an 8, hopefully those that know the whole process and what a cook goes thru will give the benifit of doubt to the cook and score it an 8.

If a judge is looking at a entry for appearance and wants to give it a 7, maybe those who have been thru the process will think about it and ask themselfs how could I put it in the box to make it a 9. If you cant find a way to put it in the box to make it better then it must be a 9.

tmcmaster
10-31-2011, 08:53 AM
I think the easiest way to get CBJ's to cook with teams is for teams to volunteer. I know I for one would LOVE to have a CBJ in my site at EVERY contest. I would only ask for honest assessment of the finished product as a judge and to supply half of the 'refreshments' for the weekend.

I would also be willing to be part of a cooks consil to help the judges and judging classes be run more effectivly and give the judges and prospective judges a better working knowledge of ALL aspects of the cook. From set-up to tear-down.

Maybe I am in the minority on this, and if so, I will keep my opinions internal, but I think ANY process that gives the judging base a broader understanding of the entirety of the cook can not be measured in dollars or cents. The KCBS is (as far as I know) a non-profit entity, so spending money to fullfil the "teach" portion of "celebrate, teach, preserve and promote barbeque as a culinary technique, sport and art form..." should be emphasised.

ique
10-31-2011, 10:19 AM
If a judges is trying to decide is it a 7 or an 8, hopefully those that know the whole process and what a cook goes thru will give the benifit of doubt to the cook and score it an 8.

The process is really irrelevant. Its either a 7 or 8, how hard a cook worked to produce competition barbecue has nothing to do with it.

tmcmaster
10-31-2011, 11:04 AM
The process is really irrelevant. Its either a 7 or 8, how hard a cook worked to produce competition barbecue has nothing to do with it.
So why does a CBJ have to cook with a team for Master status? Because clearly something about a judge cooking with a team is required. Why only for Master Judge?

Jorge
10-31-2011, 11:47 AM
Well I think we have got the judge thing stired up good.There are some options and we can all agree that some of those options need to done sooner rather than later.

Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.:shock:


I'm getting to this late, after a weekend of catching up with the 'honey-do' list.

I've listened to the meetings after the fact, and in some cases I believe you were pleading your case. I believe I understand the issue, as well as your concern. The first part of my answer is that yes, we need to take a closer look based on recent experience and continued growth. My proposed solution would be regional sanctioning committees to provide information and suggestions to the BoD based on personal knowledge and experience. There should be no question that members within a given region would have sufficient contacts to assess the level of interest in proposed contests. That type of input would carry more weight with me when it was time to vote on sanctioning.

That being said, being the first contest in an area should not guarantee exclusive rights to a date or area of coverage. If an organizer wants to phone it in, after 'X' number of years, and someone else can put a better package together then I think the new organizer deserves a shot. I think that in that case, there needs to be a greater level of scrutiny to insure that the organizer is going to be able to produce what they promise. That burden should fall on the BoD and office staff (letters of agreement, contracts, etc...). The teams and judges will vote with their feet and checkbooks.

Going a step further, I know that there are issues and concerns about some of the larger contests with larger prize lists. There were conflicts with Sam's Club this year, and I know for a fact that some teams had to make choices regarding that series and the Royal for example. That shouldn't happen, and is avoidable with proper planning. Using regional committees I think that it would be possible to get enough information to determine what contests were considered to be "crown jewels" for each area and plan accordingly to avoid conflict. It doesn't guarantee that there won't be a conflict, but it's a step in the right direction and involves membership in the process.

I think it's possible to find more balance to benefit everyone, if EVERYONE is willing to contribute.

ique
10-31-2011, 01:15 PM
So why does a CBJ have to cook with a team for Master status? Because clearly something about a judge cooking with a team is required. Why only for Master Judge?

Doesnt seem like a bad idea for that master judge certification. There is a chance the judge could learn a few more things about barbecue.

The idea that judges would be more compassionate if they cooked with a team is the part that I disagree with.

tmcmaster
10-31-2011, 01:35 PM
Doesnt seem like a bad idea for that master judge certification. There is a chance the judge could learn a few more things about barbecue.

The idea that judges would be more compassionate if they cooked with a team is the part that I disagree with.

Of course... I think if they cooked with a team they would have a better understanding of BBQ as a whole.

Tarheel
10-31-2011, 02:36 PM
The process is really irrelevant. Its either a 7 or 8, how hard a cook worked to produce competition barbecue has nothing to do with it.

This is what I instruct the judges at my contest at the judges meeting.

If you are trying to decide if it is a 7 or an 8 it is an 8. Give the cook the benifit of the doubt.

A judge that has cooked with a team would understand that a little better.

Just my opinion after discussions with some judges.

Jeff_in_KC
10-31-2011, 04:30 PM
Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.:shock:

Here in the Kansas City area, there are so many teams that we can have two or three contests across the region on the same day and not lack for teams at any one of them. I know that's not the case in many other areas and I do believe KCBS needs to look a little more closely at what they approve for sanctioning. There needs to be some sensitivity to the established contests and some attention paid to the "50 mile rule".

Tarheel
10-31-2011, 05:28 PM
I'm getting to this late, after a weekend of catching up with the 'honey-do' list.

I've listened to the meetings after the fact, and in some cases I believe you were pleading your case. I believe I understand the issue, as well as your concern. The first part of my answer is that yes, we need to take a closer look based on recent experience and continued growth. My proposed solution would be regional sanctioning committees to provide information and suggestions to the BoD based on personal knowledge and experience. There should be no question that members within a given region would have sufficient contacts to assess the level of interest in proposed contests. That type of input would carry more weight with me when it was time to vote on sanctioning.

That being said, being the first contest in an area should not guarantee exclusive rights to a date or area of coverage. If an organizer wants to phone it in, after 'X' number of years, and someone else can put a better package together then I think the new organizer deserves a shot. I think that in that case, there needs to be a greater level of scrutiny to insure that the organizer is going to be able to produce what they promise. That burden should fall on the BoD and office staff (letters of agreement, contracts, etc...). The teams and judges will vote with their feet and checkbooks.

Going a step further, I know that there are issues and concerns about some of the larger contests with larger prize lists. There were conflicts with Sam's Club this year, and I know for a fact that some teams had to make choices regarding that series and the Royal for example. That shouldn't happen, and is avoidable with proper planning. Using regional committees I think that it would be possible to get enough information to determine what contests were considered to be "crown jewels" for each area and plan accordingly to avoid conflict. It doesn't guarantee that there won't be a conflict, but it's a step in the right direction and involves membership in the process.

I think it's possible to find more balance to benefit everyone, if EVERYONE is willing to contribute.


One of my biggest concerns is the lack of attention that is being paid to these request. Unless someone voices a concern it is approved. If other organizers do not know that a contest has a request in it may be approved and they wont know it until it comes out on the website or the bull sheet.

There was a contest approved in Hampton, Va. this year that was right at or less than the 90 day requirement. It got the rubber stamp, there was a Sam's club event that weekend and one in WV that weekend. Hampton had 13 teams. And in talking to a couple of the teams there it was not good to put it mildly. That contest should have never been approved because they did not have enough time to get it together not to mention the fact that teams and judges were already committed to the other two contest.

And to kinda answer Jeff below, the 50 mile rule needs to be scraped and take a look at cooker and judge density instead. GA is one of those states that are steeping all over each other and you are ending up with non qualifiers.

Tarheel
10-31-2011, 05:42 PM
Doesnt seem like a bad idea for that master judge certification. There is a chance the judge could learn a few more things about barbecue.

The idea that judges would be more compassionate if they cooked with a team is the part that I disagree with.

If someone who is trying to get there master and could learn a few more things about barbecue why couldn't every judge learn a few more things. The sooner they learn those those things the better educated they are the better able they will be to distinguish between that 8 and 9.

It is not about being compassionate it is being a little more educated and aware of the added value and detail or why a piece of meat is in a box a certain way or why it looks a certain way. The more educated they are hopefully the better judge they are.

bbqczar
10-31-2011, 10:44 PM
Well I think we have got the judge thing stired up good.There are some options and we can all agree that some of those options need to done sooner rather than later.

Now for another topic, what are your views on the sanctioning of contest. It seems to be that the current board has been using a rubber stamp for the most part without reguard for existing contest or weither or not a contest is ready. Examples would be approving contest where there is just not enough teams to support it. Should there be closer attention paid to other factors to ensure a sucssesful contest by the kcbs or just approve it and collect the money.:shock:

I also think(as do some others) that BOD members should not be able to organize,coordinate, and/or put on ANY contests as long as they are BOD members,seems a blatent conflict of interest that I don't know if it has ever been addressed,but I think it should be.

Jeff_in_KC
10-31-2011, 10:49 PM
I also think(as do some others) that BOD members should not be able to organize,coordinate, and/or put on ANY contests as long as they are BOD members,seems a blatent conflict of interest that I don't know if it has ever been addressed,but I think it should be.

OK so why is that? Organizers do not receive any kind of payment from KCBS for putting on a contest unless you happen to be chosen for one KCBS is running. What in the world could POSSIBLY be considered a "blatant conflict of interest" about being an organizer and on the board? As an organizer, I get the same assistance from my reps that everyone else gets, nothing special. And I pay out our contest's cash to KCBS for the number of teams I have and for rep expenses, just like everyone else. Can you please elaborate on your statement?

Diva
11-01-2011, 12:00 AM
The 50 mile rule has been gone for at least 5 years.

Jeff_in_KC
11-01-2011, 12:19 AM
The 50 mile rule has been gone for at least 5 years.

Yep and in most areas, it needs to be back... or at least something similar.

Scottie
11-01-2011, 08:24 AM
Yep and in most areas, it needs to be back... or at least something similar.


They need to dump that rule just for one area. The KC Region. Otherwise i would safely say it ahould be at least 150 miles and in some cases 200 miles.. 100 miles just isnt enough distance and hurts contests.

Jorge
11-01-2011, 09:18 AM
One of my biggest concerns is the lack of attention that is being paid to these request. Unless someone voices a concern it is approved. If other organizers do not know that a contest has a request in it may be approved and they wont know it until it comes out on the website or the bull sheet.

There was a contest approved in Hampton, Va. this year that was right at or less than the 90 day requirement. It got the rubber stamp, there was a Sam's club event that weekend and one in WV that weekend. Hampton had 13 teams. And in talking to a couple of the teams there it was not good to put it mildly. That contest should have never been approved because they did not have enough time to get it together not to mention the fact that teams and judges were already committed to the other two contest.

And to kinda answer Jeff below, the 50 mile rule needs to be scraped and take a look at cooker and judge density instead. GA is one of those states that are steeping all over each other and you are ending up with non qualifiers.

Instead of the 90 day rule, how long should it be in your opinion for a first time organizer? I've got no problem with reasonable, additional requirements in those cases. As I suggested before I'd like to see letters of agreement or contracts for various infrastructure matters, roll in security as well. I think that it's reasonable to place a slightly greater burden on organizers that have no track record.

At the same time, I can't support any sort of blanket monopoly given to a contest based solely on past history of being average or better. That's why I proposed regional committees made up of members. They are in the best place to know the local issues, local teams, and local judges, to determine whether or not a given area is capable of supporting more than one contest. Just as I feel the BoD needs fresh outlooks and new ideas, I think organizers are in the same boat. The teams and judges deserve the opportunity to vote with their feet and checkbooks to determine who puts on a contest that they want to attend. Getting there first shouldn't be the ONLY criteria considered. If a new organizer comes to the board with evidence that he/she has a better location, improved amenities for the teams, greater prize pool, etc. and can substantiate that I think they deserve to be in the conversation. Otherwise we are doing a disservice to the membership. I'm in favor of doing EVERYTHING possible to make the situation work for all parties, but at the end of the day I'll cast a vote in favor of what I believe is in the best interest of the teams and judges. Without them, there are no contests.

They need to dump that rule just for one area. The KC Region. Otherwise i would safely say it ahould be at least 150 miles and in some cases 200 miles.. 100 miles just isnt enough distance and hurts contests.

Team density and saturation has been the phrase for several years. I think distance is part of the equation, but not the only factor.

smokin' peaches
11-01-2011, 09:54 AM
I think the easiest way to get CBJ's to cook with teams is for teams to volunteer. I know I for one would LOVE to have a CBJ in my site at EVERY contest. I would only ask for honest assessment of the finished product as a judge and to supply half of the 'refreshments' for the weekend.

I would also be willing to be part of a cooks consil to help the judges and judging classes be run more effectivly and give the judges and prospective judges a better working knowledge of ALL aspects of the cook. From set-up to tear-down.

Maybe I am in the minority on this, and if so, I will keep my opinions internal, but I think ANY process that gives the judging base a broader understanding of the entirety of the cook can not be measured in dollars or cents. The KCBS is (as far as I know) a non-profit entity, so spending money to fullfil the "teach" portion of "celebrate, teach, preserve and promote barbeque as a culinary technique, sport and art form..." should be emphasised.

I would welcome a CBJ under my cook tent any time. The sharing of ideas, Q philosophies and experiences are worth it, and any time I can get another's feedback on my finished product helps me to continue to grow and improve as a cook.

After taking my judging class this past year, I think the idea of a "cooks council" at a judging class is excellent. I was disappointed that the only definition of what a score should be (like the difference between a 7 or an 8 ) came only from the one person teaching the class. He also did not allow table captains that night even though there were cooks/experienced judges physically there volunteering to do so. I would have liked to have a table captain during my class who could've answered MANY of my table's questions whereas the solitary teacher was not able to do. While he was truly experienced and passionate, and his opinion on what each score should be was appreciated and valued, scoring is too subjective not to have a second opinion...especially for a new judge. A Q&A period with a panel of cooks/judges with varying levels of experience at the end of the class would truly have been beneficial.

This past weekend, I had the opportunity to hang out with a team during turn ins who also happened to be hosting a CBJ for his master certification. No talk of specific rubs, injections, recipes, or techniques took place and only information that the cook wanted us to know was shared. As a cook, other than seeing the appearance of the boxes and watching their timing, I did not walk away with any more secrets than I had in my bag of tricks before. However, the conversations between the cook and judge were awesome! The cook was able to give the most detailed explanation (albeit his opinion) of what each category might be scored based on that day's finished product. It's those conversations that have the greatest impact with me as cook and a new judge.

Rookie'48
11-01-2011, 10:04 AM
This past weekend, I had the opportunity to hang out with a team during turn ins who also happened to be hosting a CBJ for his master certification. No talk of specific rubs, injections, recipes, or techniques took place and only information that the cook wanted us to know was shared.

This is exactly how it can & should work, thanx!

Rich Parker
11-01-2011, 11:39 AM
They need to dump that rule just for one area. The KC Region. Otherwise i would safely say it ahould be at least 150 miles and in some cases 200 miles.. 100 miles just isnt enough distance and hurts contests.

The 50 or even 150 mile rule would destroy comps in Michigan. The rule should be smart enough to take in consideration the team density and past years team totals before making the decision to sanction.

Slamdunkpro
11-01-2011, 12:49 PM
Before the board starts invoking the 50, 100, 150 or whatever mile rule to protect comps they need to scrape the tarnish off the KCBS sanctioning "star". Around here organizers still talk about the Lakeland debacle. The other complaint I hear in the northeast is that KCBS sanctioning is expensive for what the organizer actually gets. Invoke distance rules in the tightly packed north east and all that will do is make NEBS, MABA, BBQ Brethren, FBA, GBA and other bodies busier. There are other sanctioning bodies besides KCBS. Comps aren't going to fold because KCBS says no. Given the choice between cooking another sanctioning body and not cooking at all cooks are going to cook.

Tarheel
11-01-2011, 03:24 PM
Instead of the 90 day rule, how long should it be in your opinion for a first time organizer? I've got no problem with reasonable, additional requirements in those cases. As I suggested before I'd like to see letters of agreement or contracts for various infrastructure matters, roll in security as well. I think that it's reasonable to place a slightly greater burden on organizers that have no track record.

At the same time, I can't support any sort of blanket monopoly given to a contest based solely on past history of being average or better. That's why I proposed regional committees made up of members. They are in the best place to know the local issues, local teams, and local judges, to determine whether or not a given area is capable of supporting more than one contest. Just as I feel the BoD needs fresh outlooks and new ideas, I think organizers are in the same boat. The teams and judges deserve the opportunity to vote with their feet and checkbooks to determine who puts on a contest that they want to attend. Getting there first shouldn't be the ONLY criteria considered. If a new organizer comes to the board with evidence that he/she has a better location, improved amenities for the teams, greater prize pool, etc. and can substantiate that I think they deserve to be in the conversation. Otherwise we are doing a disservice to the membership. I'm in favor of doing EVERYTHING possible to make the situation work for all parties, but at the end of the day I'll cast a vote in favor of what I believe is in the best interest of the teams and judges. Without them, there are no contests.



Team density and saturation has been the phrase for several years. I think distance is part of the equation, but not the only factor.

I would say it takes a minimum off 6 months to get one under control for someone who is good and well orginized. If someone comes to me or is refered to me the first thing I tell them is give yourself a year to do it. Pick a date a year in advance. That gives you time to get people together, sponsors lined up, location secured, amenities covered, advertizing inplace.

You say if they come to the table with all of the extras, money, place, ect. They need to be in the conversation. I have seen that happen, they come in with a song and dance and it turns into a one time wonder and is gone. Then the event that has been there ends up hurt and may not be able to recover. bigger is not always the answer either. A track record of being consistant or continuing to grow would weight heavier in my mind. And you have to protect that. It will end up being a case by case basis. Maybe the regional concept will help narrow it down or provide the board more information that they are currently getting.

Jeff_in_KC
11-02-2011, 01:43 PM
I see a lot of your points here and I understand that to accomplish a fair solution, several factors need to come into play... mileage, team density, contest density and, to a degree, other sanctioning bodies (if KCBS really wants to "get the job" so to speak). What that says to me in looking at the bigger picture is that contests should never be presented to the board for approval without significant investigation and taking a look at all of these factors, not just mileage. Good thing we have a sanctioning committee! In that regard, I believe it should be filled by members of KCBS who reside in all regions of the country so that someone who should be "in the know" about team and contest density can have an input in nearly every instance. And to remain impartial, I don't believe any of them should be organizers.

bover
11-02-2011, 04:11 PM
So with all the talk of improprieties, lack of transparency, etc. within the BoD are any candidates willing to stand up for the writing and signing of a public Code of Ethics or something similar for all board members? I know an argument can be made that it really shouldn't be necessary, but in my opinion it sure would go a long ways towards suppressing the knee-jerk tinfoil hat instincts that a lot of us dues-paying grunts have.

Plowboy
11-02-2011, 06:20 PM
Just a time out here on the discussion to thank Jorge, Jeff, Steve, and Dave for jumping into every topic and being frank in their response. Communication and transparency can give many a reason to vote for a candidate, but it can also give many a reason not to. At least they are having the dialog. I don't see anyone else doing it at the same level they are. I can only hope that this level of communication would continue after elected.

Of the current BOD, Candy does a great job of communication in terms of reach. Not that others don't, but my opinion is that she tries to interface with the membership more than normal. That said, Paul Kirk will sign an autograph if you buy a book. A true man of the people.

Like them or not, you can't deny that the four on the group ticket are serious about this and aren't sugar coating issues or ideas. Thanks, guys. Good luck.

Plowboy
11-02-2011, 06:26 PM
I see a lot of your points here and I understand that to accomplish a fair solution, several factors need to come into play... mileage, team density, contest density and, to a degree, other sanctioning bodies (if KCBS really wants to "get the job" so to speak). What that says to me in looking at the bigger picture is that contests should never be presented to the board for approval without significant investigation and taking a look at all of these factors, not just mileage. Good thing we have a sanctioning committee! In that regard, I believe it should be filled by members of KCBS who reside in all regions of the country so that someone who should be "in the know" about team and contest density can have an input in nearly every instance. And to remain impartial, I don't believe any of them should be organizers.


Bravo. I really like that.

I don't know if organizers need to be excluded. They offer a perspective that teams, reps and judges might not have. Any of those people can be bias to an area, an organization, a contest, an organizer as much as an organizer can. Teams could be the most biased in the whole crowd if they want a second contest so they can bottom feed by diluting the level of competition at both contests. The committee should be able to govern itself when someone in the group seems to close to an issue. And if not, you've to the BOD to veto any committee decision. Not a perfect process, but you've got a great idea of having regional representation in that committee. If one was ever a prime place for regional representation, that committee seems to be the obvious choice.

Coz
11-02-2011, 07:11 PM
I for one am glad to see discussion on the sanctioning process.Most folks dont realize it yet but in a state with 4 contests in 2011 and 3 of them were on consecutive weekends there has been a new contest on the schedule for the same weekend as one of the existing contests .All indications are that all 4 contests from this year are coming back so we would have one in June then 4 in a 3 week period in August . With the double header being one friday /sat and the other sat/sun being a 5 hour drive apart .OK so its doable to do both right ? Second contest is on an Island.... last ferry runs long before being able to get from first contest to second even leaving as soon as the last turn in is handed off. I am in no way wanting to discourage people from organizing a contest but damn please think what your doing to the people trying to compete .

Leatherheadiowa
11-02-2011, 07:22 PM
I for one am glad to see discussion on the sanctioning process.Most folks dont realize it yet but in a state with 4 contests in 2011 and 3 of them were on consecutive weekends there has been a new contest on the schedule for the same weekend as one of the existing contests .All indications are that all 4 contests from this year are coming back so we would have one in June then 4 in a 3 week period in August . With the double header being one friday /sat and the other sat/sun being a 5 hour drive apart .OK so its doable to do both right ? Second contest is on an Island.... last ferry runs long before being able to get from first contest to second even leaving as soon as the last turn in is handed off. I am in no way wanting to discourage people from organizing a contest but damn please think what your doing to the people trying to compete .

Coz,
I think your example is a prime example of what is obviously being done wrong. I am a candidate for the BOD along with some other very insightful people. I think I would bring a vast knowledge of logistics and planning knowledge to the table. While I believe most contests are planned and carried out with the best intentions the break down in communication among organizers and the KCBS needs to be eleviated.
In my field of pharmaceutical research we deal with similar issues as they relate to conducting the medical research that we conduct. I have been very fortunate to experience and to have been a part of the team of researchers that helps physicians, patients, and pharmaceutical companies best utilize research sites, spread the patient load, and do what is best for the patients. In this case we need to accomodate the judges, contestants, organizers,reps, and the host communities. There are numerous variables and again, I believe I can bring a knowledge and skill set to the BOD to complete the equation with the given variables.
Just one candidate's point of view.

Tarheel
11-03-2011, 06:34 AM
I see a lot of your points here and I understand that to accomplish a fair solution, several factors need to come into play... mileage, team density, contest density and, to a degree, other sanctioning bodies (if KCBS really wants to "get the job" so to speak). What that says to me in looking at the bigger picture is that contests should never be presented to the board for approval without significant investigation and taking a look at all of these factors, not just mileage. Good thing we have a sanctioning committee! In that regard, I believe it should be filled by members of KCBS who reside in all regions of the country so that someone who should be "in the know" about team and contest density can have an input in nearly every instance. And to remain impartial, I don't believe any of them should be organizers.

Only one thing I don't agree with is none should be organizers, who else is going to know what it takes to put one of these contest on. Unless you have done that how can you decide if someone is ready to go foward. I can see where you are going with it but the same can be said of any group you put together. The group needs to be a trustworthy and knowledegable and experenced one that can get it done together.

Tarheel
11-03-2011, 06:49 AM
Just a time out here on the discussion to thank Jorge, Jeff, Steve, and Dave for jumping into every topic and being frank in their response. Communication and transparency can give many a reason to vote for a candidate, but it can also give many a reason not to. At least they are having the dialog. I don't see anyone else doing it at the same level they are. I can only hope that this level of communication would continue after elected.

Of the current BOD, Candy does a great job of communication in terms of reach. Not that others don't, but my opinion is that she tries to interface with the membership more than normal. That said, Paul Kirk will sign an autograph if you buy a book. A true man of the people.

Like them or not, you can't deny that the four on the group ticket are serious about this and aren't sugar coating issues or ideas. Thanks, guys. Good luck.

When it comes to the current board I know for a fact that most are very approachable and will talk to you. There are some tho that are not for what ever reason. Candy is one that does lurk here and will respond on occasion. It does seem to be tho that sometimes when they do they get bombarded with the negative. If we all look at the positive and try to expand on that the negative will soon be overshadowed to the point of non existence.

As for the five who are running I have enjoyed the interaction with each of them and I will say at least 4 have spent time answering the various topics that have been brought up. If you are honest and look at everything there is one who has chosen not to participate in these discussions. Think about your vote. Have a wonderful day, I am cause I am headed to Shelby to cook!!! Yey!!!:becky::clap2::clap2:

Leatherheadiowa
11-03-2011, 07:08 AM
When it comes to the current board I know for a fact that most are very approachable and will talk to you. There are some tho that are not for what ever reason. Candy is one that does lurk here and will respond on occasion. It does seem to be tho that sometimes when they do they get bombarded with the negative. If we all look at the positive and try to expand on that the negative will soon be overshadowed to the point of non existence.

As for the five who are running I have enjoyed the interaction with each of them and I will say at least 4 have spent time answering the various topics that have been brought up. If you are honest and look at everything there is one who has chosen not to participate in these discussions. Think about your vote. Have a wonderful day, I am cause I am headed to Shelby to cook!!! Yey!!!:becky::clap2::clap2:
Tarheel, you bring up a good point about looking at the positive. Like the evening news, like the newspaper, and just about everything around us, society looks to find the bad in everything.
As a candidate I am glad to be able to participate in the discussions on here and in other outlets. In my platform I pointed out one negative aspect of the current direction of the BOD, and three other platform items that I feel need improvement.

Jorge
11-03-2011, 09:45 AM
I would say it takes a minimum off 6 months to get one under control for someone who is good and well orginized. If someone comes to me or is refered to me the first thing I tell them is give yourself a year to do it. Pick a date a year in advance. That gives you time to get people together, sponsors lined up, location secured, amenities covered, advertizing inplace.

You say if they come to the table with all of the extras, money, place, ect. They need to be in the conversation. I have seen that happen, they come in with a song and dance and it turns into a one time wonder and is gone. Then the event that has been there ends up hurt and may not be able to recover. bigger is not always the answer either. A track record of being consistant or continuing to grow would weight heavier in my mind. And you have to protect that. It will end up being a case by case basis. Maybe the regional concept will help narrow it down or provide the board more information that they are currently getting.

Fair points, all. I won't accept song and dance or pleas based solely on good faith when opposed by a history of success, or verifiable documentation from an existing contest or other new event. If a new organizer can meet that burden, I'm willing to give them fair consideration and do everything possible to benefit all parties. At the end of the day, my decision will be in favor of whatever I feel is most likely to benefit the teams and judges.

Jorge
11-03-2011, 09:55 AM
Before the board starts invoking the 50, 100, 150 or whatever mile rule to protect comps they need to scrape the tarnish off the KCBS sanctioning "star". Around here organizers still talk about the Lakeland debacle. The other complaint I hear in the northeast is that KCBS sanctioning is expensive for what the organizer actually gets. Invoke distance rules in the tightly packed north east and all that will do is make NEBS, MABA, BBQ Brethren, FBA, GBA and other bodies busier. There are other sanctioning bodies besides KCBS. Comps aren't going to fold because KCBS says no. Given the choice between cooking another sanctioning body and not cooking at all cooks are going to cook.

I'll leave Lakeland alone, for the most part but will say that based on the video I don't have much question about whether the entry was accepted or not, or whether it was late or not. What happened after that is more disputable and I've heard multiple versions of what happened or didn't happen. Without seeing the evidence for myself, I'm not prepared to offer an opinion.

I agree about Rep availability in the NE. My understanding is that KCBS is in the process of addressing that. Sooner would be better than later, but hopefully not at the expense of complete training or making sure to select the most qualified candidates. If necessary, I would be willing to support KCBS covering some travel expenses in the event that Reps have to be flown in so that the organizer isn't saddled with an unfair burden. KCBS is selling a service, and to an extent is responsible for the region being under served in terms of available Reps.

Candy Sue
11-03-2011, 10:16 AM
.... Candy is one that does lurk here and will respond on occasion. ...


I thought I was pretty un-lurk-y! I'm on my way to being a farker... NO, I'm full-fledged now!!!

Jorge
11-03-2011, 10:40 AM
I thought I was pretty un-lurk-y! I'm on my way to being a farker... NO, I'm full-fledged now!!!

I don't know, if we had you dressed in black and hiding in the shadows.....

Candy and I have had more than one frank discussion in the past. She was open and willing to listen, and share her point of view on issues where she could. I've got no problem with that, or her availability. I appreciate that fact, because much more often than not I'm sure somebody is calling because they are upset about something rather than to thank her for her time and what she's done. It's human nature, and I'm as guilty as the next guy.

Thank you, Candy Sue Weaver!

Slamdunkpro
11-03-2011, 10:46 AM
I'll leave Lakeland alone, for the most part but will say that based on the video I don't have much question about whether the entry was accepted or not, or whether it was late or not. What happened after that is more disputable and I've heard multiple versions of what happened or didn't happen. Without seeing the evidence for myself, I'm not prepared to offer an opinion.
What happened / didn't happen is immaterial at this point. It's the perception of what happened that is still hanging around along with the sound of rug sweeping that occurred afterward.

This brings up something I'd like to see from the next board. If The Board/KCBS/Staff/Reps screw up - Acknowledge it, Fix it, and put it to bed right away. The less sweeping under the rug that the next BoD does the better to recover KCBS'S reputation.

Jorge
11-03-2011, 11:38 AM
What happened / didn't happen is immaterial at this point. It's the perception of what happened that is still hanging around along with the sound of rug sweeping that occurred afterward.

This brings up something I'd like to see from the next board. If The Board/KCBS/Staff/Reps screw up - Acknowledge it, Fix it, and put it to bed right away. The less sweeping under the rug that the next BoD does the better to recover KCBS'S reputation.

I think we are on the same page.

Plowboy
11-03-2011, 02:39 PM
When it comes to the current board I know for a fact that most are very approachable and will talk to you. There are some tho that are not for what ever reason. Candy is one that does lurk here and will respond on occasion. It does seem to be tho that sometimes when they do they get bombarded with the negative. If we all look at the positive and try to expand on that the negative will soon be overshadowed to the point of non existence.

As for the five who are running I have enjoyed the interaction with each of them and I will say at least 4 have spent time answering the various topics that have been brought up. If you are honest and look at everything there is one who has chosen not to participate in these discussions. Think about your vote. Have a wonderful day, I am cause I am headed to Shelby to cook!!! Yey!!!:becky::clap2::clap2:

Agreed. I think five are responding, but one isn't really saying much, imho.

Tarheel
11-03-2011, 04:40 PM
I thought I was pretty un-lurk-y! I'm on my way to being a farker... NO, I'm full-fledged now!!!

I had no idea you were at that stage of royalty Candy, my humblest of appoligies from a lowley just on my way to be a farker. I bow to your talketivenes!!:eusa_clap

Jeff_in_KC
11-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Only one thing I don't agree with is none should be organizers, who else is going to know what it takes to put one of these contest on. Unless you have done that how can you decide if someone is ready to go foward. I can see where you are going with it but the same can be said of any group you put together. The group needs to be a trustworthy and knowledegable and experenced one that can get it done together.

Roy and Todd, I'm not sure where knowing what it takes to put on a contest is as vital as a solid knowledge of geography, some idea of team density and what's fair and the right thing to do, but I can see your point. What happens then if a contest in question happens to be in an area where the sole member of the committee who is an organizer is from? Approving or denying the sanctioning (or recommending or failing to recommend) might prove to somehow create an advantage for the committee member who is the organizer in the area in question. I think there is a very workable solution to the sanctioning approval process and we're definitely on the right track in this thread!

Tarheel
11-06-2011, 05:25 PM
Roy and Todd, I'm not sure where knowing what it takes to put on a contest is as vital as a solid knowledge of geography, some idea of team density and what's fair and the right thing to do, but I can see your point. What happens then if a contest in question happens to be in an area where the sole member of the committee who is an organizer is from? Approving or denying the sanctioning (or recommending or failing to recommend) might prove to somehow create an advantage for the committee member who is the organizer in the area in question. I think there is a very workable solution to the sanctioning approval process and we're definitely on the right track in this thread!

I think it should be a cross section of the whole group, orginizer, cook, judge. It should not be just one person so if there is a conflict it can be dealt with early within the group. The group still is just making a recommendation to the board based on the information gathered.
Again, I don't think it is any diffrent than a board member being in the same situation.

Tarheel
11-06-2011, 05:55 PM
Ok, another subject here, the KCBS supplies the score cards and plates for the judging. What about the KCBS striking up a deal with a box company and supplying the boxes for contest so we have standard boxes at every contest. In shelby this weekend we had boxes that were called 9 1/2 x 9 1/2 but if you put a tape to them at the lip they were 9 x 9 and just below the lip where your meat would be was 8 1/2 x 8 1/2 . Everyone had the same box but it would be nice to know you were going to have the same box every time.

Leatherheadiowa
11-06-2011, 06:14 PM
Tarheel,
As a candidate this is an issue but it has been an issue before I decided to run for the BOD. Having been a competitor for over a decade I have seen clam shells of all kinds. I wish there was a standard that was adhered to. There is a standard size but usually the reps go with whatever the organizer has gathered within reason. The variations are often outside of what I would consider "within limits".
I have also written a column at bbqcritic.com about this issue as it pertains to going green at bbq contests. You can read it and read the comments here: http://www.bbqcritic.com/28/post/2011/10/should-bbq-contests-go-green.html

From my experience as a business owner I would use a resource that the KCBS already has in place, Sams Club. You can find the easily available Hedty Hinged Lid Containers 9x9 at Sams Clubs. As part of the Sams Club Tour I would put Sams Club on the spot for a bulk price. A designated person at KCBS could order the boxes and have the same item shipped to every contest. It would be as simple as calling the organizer, asking for the number of categories, number of entrants, and multiply.
From a logistics point of view this would be a simple problem to solve and asking Sams Club to help out with the turn in boxes is something I would have no problem asking them. I have asked Home Depot, Lowes, and Northern Tool for more as a business owner.
I would like to see the regulations abided by and if the simplest of regulations can't be enforced then how can we expect other more complicated rules to be enforced?

CaptTable
11-07-2011, 05:41 AM
Where I beg to differ is that it is never "as simple as asking the organizer how many teams and how many categories". Many contests will accept applicants up to and incuding the Friday of the contest (especially if there is a Backyard contest). If there are ancillary categories, most teams can sign up as late as when we are passing out boxes on Friday.

Then you have to worry about opening up the boxes to pass them out on Friday and UPS/Fedex has done their usual job of protecting your shipment and half are split (unusable) in some way. Too late to order more so you are back to the organizer having to go buy some then they might not be the exact type.

The idea of ONE box for all sounds nice, but I just don't think it feasible.

And remember, many, many contests are seeral miles from a Sam's while a Costco, etc. may be there in town.

Tarheel
11-07-2011, 06:40 AM
Where I beg to differ is that it is never "as simple as asking the organizer how many teams and how many categories". Many contests will accept applicants up to and incuding the Friday of the contest (especially if there is a Backyard contest). If there are ancillary categories, most teams can sign up as late as when we are passing out boxes on Friday.

Then you have to worry about opening up the boxes to pass them out on Friday and UPS/Fedex has done their usual job of protecting your shipment and half are split (unusable) in some way. Too late to order more so you are back to the organizer having to go buy some then they might not be the exact type.

The idea of ONE box for all sounds nice, but I just don't think it feasible.

And remember, many, many contests are seeral miles from a Sam's while a Costco, etc. may be there in town.

Yes, these are concerns that would have to be worked out some way. Sending an additional number of trays would cover that part. Any leftovers could be used for the next year.

Ups and Fed X are a major concern so heavier shipping boxes would have to be used.

The other option here is to come up with a manufacture and a order number for a box that is required to be used.

Leatherheadiowa
11-07-2011, 07:47 AM
I completely understand that the logistics for procurring anything can be tough but giving the right people the right resources would be a good first step. If the organizer two weeks out needs 400 boxes then have them order an extra 100. That is a whole $8.34 plus freight. Having been to a contest where the organizer used a biodegradable paper style wax lined box that was like a sponge was a disaster.
I order from Sams Club four times a month and in eight years I have never had an incorrect shipment.
Instead of looking at what can't be done, as a candidate for the KCBS BOD I want to encourage a positive outlook, use available resources, and create a standard in which every cook know what she or he is going to be using, and what every rep and organizer can count on, and what every judge is expecting.

Jeff_in_KC
11-07-2011, 09:35 AM
Maybe I'm going to lose some support here but you guys CAN'T be serious about this clamshell issue! With all of the talk going on by membership about micromanaging by KCBS, you are wanting them to mandate that a certain clamshell is used for all contests nationwide? Talk about micromanaging! If I get an 8 1/2 box one week and a 9 inch box the next, it's not going to kill me. I accept the box, build my parsley bed and put meat in it. And if it's a little deeper one week than others, so be it. Besides the fact that it would be micromanaging, it's a crap shoot to put styrofoam boxes in a big box and expect them to be delievered undamaged. Add to that the completely uncessary costs involved to KCBS in paying for shipping and the also unecessary warehousing on said boxes.

So BJ, who's paying that additional freight? You're going to ask an organizer to pay it when they could just run down to a Sam's Club or wherever they normally get their clamshells and buy them cheaper? No? So you're going to ask KCBS to pay this freight to over 300 contests all across the country. Either way, very weak.

We have many more pressing issues in KCBS that need to be addressed. Myself, Steve, George and Dave have been talking about "bigger picture" and this is so minor, it shouldn't even be on the radar.

bover
11-07-2011, 09:42 AM
Maybe I'm going to lose some support here but you guys CAN'T be serious about this clamshell issue! With all of the talk going on by membership about micromanaging by KCBS, you are wanting them to mandate that a certain clamshell is used for all contests nationwide? Talk about micromanaging! If I get an 8 1/2 box one week and a 9 inch box the next, it's not going to kill me. I accept the box, build my parsley bed and put meat in it. And if it's a little deeper one week than others, so be it. Besides the fact that it would be micromanaging, it's a crap shoot to put styrofoam boxes in a big box and expect them to be delievered undamaged. Add to that the completely uncessary costs involved to KCBS in paying for shipping and the also unecessary warehousing on said boxes.

So BJ, who's paying that additional freight? You're going to ask an organizer to pay it when they could just run down to a Sam's Club or wherever they normally get their clamshells and buy them cheaper? No? So you're going to ask KCBS to pay this freight to over 300 contests all across the country. Either way, very weak.

We have many more pressing issues in KCBS that need to be addressed. Myself, Steve, George and Dave have been talking about "bigger picture" and this is so minor, it shouldn't even be on the radar.

Bingo. If anything, it's a subject that could be discussed amongst one of the committees but certainly not a topic that the board needs to worry about directly.

Jorge
11-07-2011, 10:02 AM
I understand your point Roy. At the end of the day I think it would be more efficient and productive for KCBS to solicit samples from manufacturers and compile a list of containers with similar dimensions and provide those SKUS to organizers.

At the end of the day, shipping containers or having them drop shipped takes up a lot of hours during the heart of the season and then becomes the responsibility of KCBS because we have become the middleman.

It's a value added option for the organizer that chooses to inform his teams which container will be on site. Some teams won't care, some will, but the bases are covered for all without incurring extra cost or liability.

As an organizer, you tell me, do you want to deal with scrambling for boxes if your shipment shows up with major damage?

Leatherheadiowa
11-07-2011, 10:11 AM
Maybe I'm going to lose some support here but you guys CAN'T be serious about this clamshell issue! With all of the talk going on by membership about micromanaging by KCBS, you are wanting them to mandate that a certain clamshell is used for all contests nationwide? Talk about micromanaging! If I get an 8 1/2 box one week and a 9 inch box the next, it's not going to kill me. I accept the box, build my parsley bed and put meat in it. And if it's a little deeper one week than others, so be it. Besides the fact that it would be micromanaging, it's a crap shoot to put styrofoam boxes in a big box and expect them to be delievered undamaged. Add to that the completely uncessary costs involved to KCBS in paying for shipping and the also unecessary warehousing on said boxes.

So BJ, who's paying that additional freight? You're going to ask an organizer to pay it when they could just run down to a Sam's Club or wherever they normally get their clamshells and buy them cheaper? No? So you're going to ask KCBS to pay this freight to over 300 contests all across the country. Either way, very weak.

We have many more pressing issues in KCBS that need to be addressed. Myself, Steve, George and Dave have been talking about "bigger picture" and this is so minor, it shouldn't even be on the radar.

I agree, there are other more important concerns but, for the person that asked the question this was of some kind of importance and as a leader you have to address concerns from everyone no matter how big or small. *Being an equal opporunity listener is important. *
Your concern, my concern, and this person's concern are all different and would be prioritized differently but all deserve attention.
Having been in a situation recently where the boxes were an absolute nightmare and having written an article on BBQCRITIC.COM about it I think that the person asking the question had a point and some of the comments and emails I received after writing the article on BBQCRITIC.COM makes me believe that this is worth addressing.
As for the logistics of getting them, it isn't a big deal. *People worried about them being damaged in transport need to look at the fact that an organizer could buy them from ABC Clamshell supply in their own town, put them in their car and have a multitude of things happen to them.
Let's look at the positives that could be achieved by having them drop shipped a week prior to the contest and if the good Lord unleashes fire and brimstone where they are being stored then the organizer would have to make other arrangements.

Candy Sue
11-07-2011, 10:18 AM
Who'd ever think that turn in boxes could be such a big deal?

I cooked a contest once where the boxes measured at the bottom at 7.5 x 7.5. Reps said all the cooks were in the same boat, deal with it!

The shipping thing would be a nightmare. Freight folks are brutal on shipping boxes, and heavier weight means more freight cost and is really no guarantee of safe arrival of product. Besides, clamshells seem to be dropping in quality, IMO.

Leatherheadiowa
11-07-2011, 10:23 AM
I realize that turn in boxes shouldn't be a big deal but, in Omaha at the Aksarben contest they tried the eco friendly paper based boxes and they were trash. If you build your box the night before and put it in a fridge or cooler you woke up to a spongy damp box that lost its integrity due to soaking up moisture.
That constitutes a problem. People are tired of other people ignoring what concerns them. Speaking as a member, not a candidate I am glad the contest rep and organizer in Omaha listened and took notice of the issue. Good work out of Ron and Dena Milhous and the entire Aksarben staff!

Leatherheadiowa
11-07-2011, 10:25 AM
Ok, that horse is dead, beaten, and buried. Next topic.

Jeff_in_KC
11-07-2011, 10:28 AM
I agree, there are other more important concerns but, for the person that asked the question this was of some kind of importance and as a leader you have to address concerns from everyone no matter how big or small. *Being an equal opporunity listener is important. *
Your concern, my concern, and this person's concern are all different and would be prioritized differently but all deserve attention.
Having been in a situation recently where the boxes were an absolute nightmare and having written an article on BBQCRITIC.COM about it I think that the person asking the question had a point and some of the comments and emails I received after writing the article on BBQCRITIC.COM makes me believe that this is worth addressing.
As for the logistics of getting them, it isn't a big deal. *People worried about them being damaged in transport need to look at the fact that an organizer could buy them from ABC Clamshell supply in their own town, put them in their car and have a multitude of things happen to them.
Let's look at the positives that could be achieved by having them drop shipped a week prior to the contest and if the good Lord unleashes fire and brimstone where they are being stored then the organizer would have to make other arrangements.

If nothing else, I can tell you're good at micromanaging. I'm with Candy - if the boxes are slightly smaller or larger, everyone is in the same boat. Deal with it. We've seen them smaller, larger, shallower, deeper and with funky shaped corners. We've dealt with it every time. The shape or size of the boxes has never been a factor in how well we've done or something that threw us off our game. It's part of competing - you have to learn HOW to compete, not just cook good food. You adjust if your food is lacking flavor. You adjust if over or undercooked. And you adjust if your boxes are slightly off the "norm". I'd be interested in hearing more about just what circumstances made something as simple as clamshell boxes a "nightmare" at the contest you mentioned.

Leatherheadiowa
11-07-2011, 10:38 AM
If nothing else, I can tell you're good at micromanaging.

I agree with part of your statement. I am good at managing. I work in healthcare and listening to my patient's is always better that telling them something. It is much harder to be a good listener and then using critical thinking skills than making assumptions and having to be reactive when your assumptions are wrong. I deal with people's lives and well being daily and every person has different issues and I don't dare lump all my patients into the same category.
In the event that I don't manage suffciently someone ends up very sick or dead.
Being a micromanger with the intent of making a positive outcome is much harder than having a macromanaging style where reaction to big issues is usually an indication it is to late to fix.
I am sorry you disagree with my style but I would guess our differing management styles would make a very positive impact on the KCBS BOD.

YankeeBBQ
11-07-2011, 11:36 AM
I have to agree with Jeff that having the KCBS handle distributing boxes is not a great idea. However I think this issue can be addressed with better training of reps and with Jeff's idea of an organizer training program. If we train the reps to communicate the importance of having the proper boxes to the organizer they are working with and perhaps supplying them with information on where to get the boxes I think that would solve the problem. Is getting smaller boxes at a contest the end of the world ? No but as a competitor it is annoying.

YankeeBBQ
11-07-2011, 11:44 AM
I agree with part of your statement. I am good at managing. I work in healthcare and listening to my patient's is always better that telling them something. It is much harder to be a good listener and then using critical thinking skills than making assumptions and having to be reactive when your assumptions are wrong. I deal with people's lives and well being daily and every person has different issues and I don't dare lump all my patients into the same category.
In the event that I don't manage suffciently someone ends up very sick or dead.
Being a micromanger with the intent of making a positive outcome is much harder than having a macromanaging style where reaction to big issues is usually an indication it is to late to fix.
I am sorry you disagree with my style but I would guess our differing management styles would make a very positive impact on the KCBS BOD.

I thought you worked in pharmaceutical research ? Anyway I think you'll find that most decisions you would make as a BOD member would not involve life and death. At least I hope not. The biggest problem I have with KCBS distributing turn in boxes is the added cost to a contest organizer. When it's a $100,000 contest that might not be a big deal but smaller contest could be adversely affected. I know as a competitor I hate to see anything that's going to increase the cost of cooking a contest.

Leatherheadiowa
11-07-2011, 12:34 PM
I thought you worked in pharmaceutical research ?

I do work in pharmaceutical research. I recruit and see patients in three specialty clinics here in the Des Mounes area. The clinics I work in have patient bases of nearly 7000 patients. If you happen to have Crohns Disease or IBS with constipation I have a study for you.:wink:
Back to the original issues. All boxes aren't created equal, giving organizers a list of sources to get quality boxes, and when a member has an issue no matter how large or small we respectfully listen to them and address them professionally.
I think we need to move on and get ready for another issue.:-P

Tarheel
11-07-2011, 05:01 PM
Wow, got ya'll going with that one! The main idea here was brought up and that is training for organizers. The KCBS has to do a better job at providing valuable information for the organizers. We don't have to mandate a certain manufacture of boxes but provide them with a small list of 2 or 3 that meet the requirements.

Now on to the next one, somewhere on here Candy brought up the fact that the weight of scoring the appearance has either changed or they are looking at changing due to the number of ties. I have noticed what I would consider a larger than normal number of ties lately. Gastonia had 2nd thru 6th tied for one catigorie.

The way ties are broken currently the 6th judge is not brought back in to the mix until after they have been thru the 5 judges with appearance, taste, and tenderness individually to try and break it. I have lost the tie breaker when the 6th judge was higher than the other.

Why not try the 6th judge first?

Jorge
11-07-2011, 05:30 PM
Wow, got ya'll going with that one! The main idea here was brought up and that is training for organizers. The KCBS has to do a better job at providing valuable information for the organizers. We don't have to mandate a certain manufacture of boxes but provide them with a small list of 2 or 3 that meet the requirements.



I've replied and edited that because I misunderstood your post. One thing I want to see if elected is more membership involvement. What would you do if elected? I know that we made a choice to run for office, but since you've held our feet to the fire, why don't you tell us what you'd like to accomplish. Fair is far.

Jorge
11-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Wow, got ya'll going with that one! The main idea here was brought up and that is training for organizers. The KCBS has to do a better job at providing valuable information for the organizers. We don't have to mandate a certain manufacture of boxes but provide them with a small list of 2 or 3 that meet the requirements.

Now on to the next one, somewhere on here Candy brought up the fact that the weight of scoring the appearance has either changed or they are looking at changing due to the number of ties. I have noticed what I would consider a larger than normal number of ties lately. Gastonia had 2nd thru 6th tied for one catigorie.

The way ties are broken currently the 6th judge is not brought back in to the mix until after they have been thru the 5 judges with appearance, taste, and tenderness individually to try and break it. I have lost the tie breaker when the 6th judge was higher than the other.

Why not try the 6th judge first?

Because judge #6 is the furthest from the norm, and most likely to be less accurate than the other five. Sometimes losing the toss is painful.

Personal evidence: I cooked Sam's Club in Austin with Two Worthless Nuts. We tied for 7th, and lost the tie breaker. Solution? We needed to cook better. I think you probably know the head cook since he was in Shelby this weekend.

A change in weighting applies to EVERYONE. As a result it's more fair to everyone since judge 6 can't taste every sample.

Slamdunkpro
11-07-2011, 07:24 PM
More ties are the result of two things: people cooking in the judge's ever narrowing zone more due to better education (cook's classes) and score creep. If judges really gave 6's for average and 7's for above average instead of just 8's or 9's *(OMG I can't give them a 7, it'll kill their chances, not after they spent all that money, time and effort - where's my cooler?) When judges only score on a 3 point scale you're going to get ties regardless of the weighting.

What to do? You could:


Change the scoring to 1/2 point intervals instead of whole numbers. (this would only be a temporary fix as the defacto scale would become 8, 8.5 & 9)
Define the standard of average to the judges so they have some frame of reference. (Easier said than done)
Add a 4th scoring criteria - Creativity. This would introduce some variance in the turn in's instead of the homogeneous identical samples we get now.

*sarcasm and satire, in case someone misses it.

boogiesnap
11-07-2011, 08:22 PM
up here, i think judges are pretty liberal with giving out 6's.

in my 3 kcbs comps, i turned in OK food in 2. finished middle of the pack.

3rd comp, re-tooled and turned in better food. finished RGC.

i personally think the system is flawed but not faulty.

i DON"T like the term average for a 6 though. the worded scoring system goes from statistical to adjective.

a 6 should be described as "satisfactory", a 9 "exemplory".

because what IS average?

i'd also suggest that tenderness is harder to nail than taste, and thus, if weighting was to be changed, it be there.

Slamdunkpro
11-07-2011, 09:46 PM
a 6 should be described as "satisfactory", a 9 "exemplory".
:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:

Please to fill in the entire score range - by George I think he's got it.

bover
11-08-2011, 08:53 AM
I like it boogie. Something like this maybe?

9 superior
8 excellent
7 very good
6 satisfactory
5 needs improvement
4 unsatisfactory
3 bad
2 inedible/unsafe
1 disqualified

swamprb
11-08-2011, 10:16 AM
Some communities are banning styrofoam clamshells. We tried some of the paper ones and they were crap. The biodegradable plastic ones we use are very sturdy.

Jeff_in_KC
11-08-2011, 10:42 AM
I have heard some people claim that assigning definitions to each number is a bad thing. I like the above better than using "average" but in either method, I've heard the argument that especially with new CBJs and those they pull in off the street and celebrities, those folks tend to think that if there is average or satisfactory on the scorecard, they're doing the cook a favor by giving them a 7 (very good or above average) when in fact, it deserves an 8 or 9. This is a tough one. I'd need to see a lot of input and pro's/con's on this issue before I'd take a stance.

Leatherheadiowa
11-08-2011, 01:15 PM
Some communities are banning styrofoam clamshells. We tried some of the paper ones and they were crap. The biodegradable plastic ones we use are very sturdy.
I guess you and I need to learn HOW to cook before we complain about clam shells.

bover
11-08-2011, 01:19 PM
I guess you and I need to learn HOW to cook before we complain about clam shells.

Yep. Passive-aggressive pettiness is just what we're looking for in a BoD candidate.

Leatherheadiowa
11-08-2011, 01:25 PM
My point is that my opinion on clam shells was not one that I was alone in. Telling someone that they need to learn how to cook first is petty, not addressing a concern but I can see your side as well. The BOD needs all kinds of personalities. I like to look at the big picture and value the concerns and feelings of the masses and not be quick to point and say, you need to do this or that before you have any opinion at all.

Jorge
11-08-2011, 01:39 PM
My point is that my opinion on clam shells was not one that I was alone in. Telling someone that they need to learn how to cook first is petty, not addressing a concern but I can see your side as well. The BOD needs all kinds of personalities. I like to look at the big picture and value the concerns and feelings of the masses and not be quick to point and say, you need to do this or that before you have any opinion at all.

I've gone out of my way to NOT campaign on personalities and stick to the issues, but if that got under your skin then I wish you luck if elected. People you've never heard of will line up to take their shots. It's probably not the way it SHOULD be, but that's the way it is. Best of luck to you.:becky:

Leatherheadiowa
11-08-2011, 02:13 PM
George, I appreciate your comment. I didn't take any comments personally. Some comments appear very pointed at pointing out weaknesses that are perceived and not actually known. It is very easy to do via a forum and I understand that this just happens to be the nature of the beast.
No foul, no harm.

RangerJ
11-08-2011, 03:38 PM
Learning how to cook has nothing to do with Clamshell's but if Clamshell's are a real issue ( and none of this Kumbya' stuff that was posted earlier) then what a knuckle head I'am for wasting my time both here and my money to KCBS.

In the Pacific NW, I can see no styrofoam becoming an issue, but in the states were KCBS has a strong hold, I doubt that is the case. Perhaps the most "ungreen" sport you could be a part of is a cook off.

As a cook, measure your box, trim accordingly and cook.

Maybe if I got caught up in the minuta ( such as my box being a 1/4 inch off), I'd have a GC by now but to Jeff in KC's point, I find ths styrofoam subject absurd.

Here's a curveball..

KCBS has almost no presence in Texas, a state with a huge BBQ history and many, many cook teams with deep pockets. There are possibly as many cook offs in this state every weekend then are sanctioned by KCBS across the US.

What do the canidates think can be done ( if anything) to get KCBS a stronger presence within this state? PS - there is a great window, NOW, just after Sam's did three cook offs here.

ThomEmery
11-08-2011, 03:38 PM
Dude I think folks have been holding back on ya
On another well known bbq community you would have been roasted by now
Best of Luck to you

Tarheel
11-08-2011, 05:49 PM
Because judge #6 is the furthest from the norm, and most likely to be less accurate than the other five. Sometimes losing the toss is painful.

Personal evidence: I cooked Sam's Club in Austin with Two Worthless Nuts. We tied for 7th, and lost the tie breaker. Solution? We needed to cook better. I think you probably know the head cook since he was in Shelby this weekend.

A change in weighting applies to EVERYONE. As a result it's more fair to everyone since judge 6 can't taste every sample.

Yes the 6th judge is the furtherst out but why not use that judge first instead of going back to the 5 who resulted in a tie.

Yes, I know Rob. and he needed to cook better in Shelby too.

Yes, changing the weighting does apply to everyone. But my question was have they changed the Appearance weight already. There have been a larger number of ties of late and that is what has me wondering. The reason given for doing it was to eliminate some of the ties, wondering if it has done the opposite. :-o

Tarheel
11-08-2011, 05:55 PM
I like it boogie. Something like this maybe?

9 superior
8 excellent
7 very good
6 satisfactory
5 needs improvement
4 unsatisfactory
3 bad
2 inedible/unsafe
1 disqualified

Ok, lets say you use these words where can the judge find the definition for each. What is satisfactory, what needs improvement? If you have 5 instructors teaching judging classes then you need something that says what each name means so it is taught the same way by each instructor not just his opinion of what it is because you then end up with 5 different definitions.

Tarheel
11-08-2011, 06:00 PM
I have heard some people claim that assigning definitions to each number is a bad thing. I like the above better than using "average" but in either method, I've heard the argument that especially with new CBJs and those they pull in off the street and celebrities, those folks tend to think that if there is average or satisfactory on the scorecard, they're doing the cook a favor by giving them a 7 (very good or above average) when in fact, it deserves an 8 or 9. This is a tough one. I'd need to see a lot of input and pro's/con's on this issue before I'd take a stance.


Oh come on now Jeff, Stand up, I will tell you it is close but needs work. But it has to start with the instruction judges get on what each one means. Has to be standard.

Tarheel
11-08-2011, 06:13 PM
I've replied and edited that because I misunderstood your post. One thing I want to see if elected is more membership involvement. What would you do if elected? I know that we made a choice to run for office, but since you've held our feet to the fire, why don't you tell us what you'd like to accomplish. Fair is far.


I want to see this orginazation continue to grow and move in a positive direction. But that has to be with some control not a rubber stamp. That cant be done if the board cant work together towards that comman goal. There needs to be more involvement by the membership in the whole process.

And TOY should be getting some real cash and recognistion for there accomplishment beyond a picture in the bullsheet.

And do away with garnish!!:eusa_clap

Jeff_in_KC
11-08-2011, 10:38 PM
Oh come on now Jeff, Stand up, I will tell you it is close but needs work. But it has to start with the instruction judges get on what each one means. Has to be standard.

I have to assume that was a bit of sarcasm there. Why would I jump into an answer or propose/support one on the board without first doing my homework and feeling comfortable with the proposed solution?

Ford
11-09-2011, 07:07 AM
Yes the 6th judge is the furtherst out but why not use that judge first instead of going back to the 5 who resulted in a tie.

Yes, I know Rob. and he needed to cook better in Shelby too.

Yes, changing the weighting does apply to everyone. But my question was have they changed the Appearance weight already. There have been a larger number of ties of late and that is what has me wondering. The reason given for doing it was to eliminate some of the ties, wondering if it has done the opposite. :-o
System was changed to eliminate all the perfect 180 ties (not many of them in meats anyway). If there's a tie where it's not a perfect 180 (all 6 scores) then the tie breaker goes to the 6th judge, then to taste, tenderness and finally appearance. Very sledom do they use the coin flip to break a tie.

Tarheel
11-09-2011, 08:10 AM
I have to assume that was a bit of sarcasm there. Why would I jump into an answer or propose/support one on the board without first doing my homework and feeling comfortable with the proposed solution?

Yes it was, trying to keep it on the lighter side too. :becky:

Plowboy
11-09-2011, 10:01 AM
Roy and Todd, I'm not sure where knowing what it takes to put on a contest is as vital as a solid knowledge of geography, some idea of team density and what's fair and the right thing to do, but I can see your point. What happens then if a contest in question happens to be in an area where the sole member of the committee who is an organizer is from? Approving or denying the sanctioning (or recommending or failing to recommend) might prove to somehow create an advantage for the committee member who is the organizer in the area in question. I think there is a very workable solution to the sanctioning approval process and we're definitely on the right track in this thread!

Understood on the bias issue, but bias can exist with cooks and judges, too. How is a cook voting for or against a contest in his home town any different than the organizer doing it? My point is that corruption in the process is no more likely from an organizer than it is a cook, judge or rep. We all have our own self interests. You as an organizer know all of the things that have to align to do a contest well. Picking the right weekend is one of those. I wouldn't leave it up to a bunch of cooks and judges... and that's me speaking as someone how only cooks.

There are ethical/character risk issues, but if the KCBS membership has proven anything, it is that we will publicly pull you out on the carpet and flog you into a bloody pulp for the slightest of infractions. Hell, we'll disqualify you if you have a spec of foil in your box.

Plowboy
11-09-2011, 10:21 AM
I want to see this orginazation continue to grow and move in a positive direction. But that has to be with some control not a rubber stamp. That cant be done if the board cant work together towards that comman goal. There needs to be more involvement by the membership in the whole process.

And TOY should be getting some real cash and recognistion for there accomplishment beyond a picture in the bullsheet.

And do away with garnish!!:eusa_clap

Explain why <1% of the overall cook teams deserve cash at the end of the year? Not saying I agree or disagree. I can see two sides to this one.

I hope KCBS never eliminates garnish. Personally, I think it is fine right where it is.

ique
11-09-2011, 10:28 AM
explain why <1% of the overall cook teams deserve cash at the end of the year?


occupy kcbs !

Jorge
11-09-2011, 10:32 AM
occupy kcbs !

I'm conferring with my advisors now, and may have a press conference later.

Plowboy
11-09-2011, 10:33 AM
occupy kcbs !

<---- 99% er


Ever wonder if Herman Cain is a KCBS judge? Where else did he come up with 9,9,9?

BTW, I was groped (reach around) by one of the BOD candidates in 2007. Press conference pending.

Plowboy
11-09-2011, 10:34 AM
I'm conferring with my advisors now, and may have a press conference later.

For some reason I see you taking a different route. I see a watchtower in your future.

And 4' of Type III 550 paracord.

Jorge
11-09-2011, 10:48 AM
<---- 99% er


Ever wonder if Herman Cain is a KCBS judge? Where else did he come up with 9,9,9?

BTW, I was groped (reach around) by one of the BOD candidates in 2007. Press conference pending.

The G-String you bought me at Qlossal made me feel very uncomfortable. I'm retaining Gloria Alred <or however you spell her name>.

Plowboy
11-09-2011, 10:53 AM
The G-String you bought me at Qlossal made me feel very uncomfortable. I'm retaining Gloria Alred <or however you spell her name>.

If you are going after the Plowboy fortune... you could probably buy a Happy Meal with what I've got.

I'm making you a new paracord thong. Be prepared!

Slamdunkpro
11-09-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm making you a new paracord thong. Be prepared!

http://www.slamdunkpro.com//Resources/mindbleach.jpg

dmprantz
11-09-2011, 12:30 PM
I'm a bit late to this party, and I'll admit I skimmed through some of the posts, but I had a few things I thought I should say:

In post #7, it was stated that none of the candidates in "the ticket" stand to gain from contest assignments. Isn't at least one of the candidates an organizer who has publically complained about not having a chance to organize a Sam's Club event? I am in no way trying to say that any one on the ticket would take advantage, but it is certainly possible, isn't it?

There was a lot of talk about judges shadowing cook teams and whether or not it should be required of all judges. Here's a random thought: Why not ask judges on the application: Are you a KCBS competition cook? Have you ever shadowed a KCBS cook team? When was the most recent shadow? Let the organizers play favourites with those judges if they want, just like they can now play favourites with Master CBJs, and then distribute them evenly among tables.

Then, in Post 137, George said that Judge 6 is farthest from the norm. This is not necessarily true. It is very likely that your scores are on the order of 36 33 33 33 33 32. The lowest is statistically more significant than the highest....Maybe I've been writing too many standard deviation routines lately....Maybe STD should be taken into account of tie breakers? (I'm really kidding there!)

dmp

Jeff_in_KC
11-09-2011, 12:30 PM
I'm making you a new paracord thong. Be prepared!

So THAT'S what you needed it for! Had I known that, I would have looked harder! :laugh:

U2CANQUE
11-09-2011, 12:48 PM
Yes the 6th judge is the furtherst out but why not use that judge first instead of going back to the 5 who resulted in a tie.

Yes, I know Rob. and he needed to cook better in Shelby too.

Yes, changing the weighting does apply to everyone. But my question was have they changed the Appearance weight already. There have been a larger number of ties of late and that is what has me wondering. The reason given for doing it was to eliminate some of the ties, wondering if it has done the opposite. :-o

No, actually had a good cook in Shelby, so, no, didn't need to have a better cook.....but, I did not throw rocks getting out of the parking lot, didn't blame judges, scores, or try to register for another contest to rectify the wrongs that judges did to me....it is not that powerful of a experience in my life......"I took it as "it is what it is"....not hitting the right tables at the right time....no sweats, no worries, and no need to revive judge #6...

Tarheel
11-09-2011, 01:29 PM
Explain why <1% of the overall cook teams deserve cash at the end of the year? Not saying I agree or disagree. I can see two sides to this one.

I hope KCBS never eliminates garnish. Personally, I think it is fine right where it is.

I think anyone who has worked that hard thruout the year and come out on top deserves the spolls that go with it. You cook a single contest and end up with grand you are in the minority there too. TOY is just one more big contest. Yes, there are some things that might could be done to bring more people into the mix. I like the average idea.

I still say get rid of parsly and we need to cook who:becky:le chickens too.

Scottie
11-09-2011, 01:49 PM
You are my hero. No matter what Jorge says about you...

Plowboy in 2012!!!!!!


Explain why <1% of the overall cook teams deserve cash at the end of the year? Not saying I agree or disagree. I can see two sides to this one.

I hope KCBS never eliminates garnish. Personally, I think it is fine right where it is.

Jorge
11-09-2011, 01:54 PM
You are my hero. No matter what Jorge says about you...

Plowboy in 2012!!!!!!

If elected, I will work to outlaw orange <off/road> Crocs.

YankeeBBQ
11-09-2011, 01:58 PM
If elected, I will work to outlaw orange <off/road> Crocs.

I will support you in that :clap2:

U2CANQUE
11-09-2011, 02:36 PM
About time that there was some kind of action proposed by these so called candidates...well, actions that mattered any way

mobow
11-09-2011, 04:02 PM
I hope KCBS never eliminates garnish. Personally, I think it is fine right where it is.
I like the garnish rule as it is also. It makes meat look better. keith

Tarheel
11-09-2011, 04:14 PM
No, actually had a good cook in Shelby, so, no, didn't need to have a better cook.....but, I did not throw rocks getting out of the parking lot, didn't blame judges, scores, or try to register for another contest to rectify the wrongs that judges did to me....it is not that powerful of a experience in my life......"I took it as "it is what it is"....not hitting the right tables at the right time....no sweats, no worries, and no need to revive judge #6...

I know you did, it was just a joke. But you can still blame the judges, I do, unless I know I screwed it up. :doh:

Jeff_in_KC
11-09-2011, 09:19 PM
About time that there was some kind of action proposed by these so called candidates...well, actions that mattered any way

You mean in addition to the orange croc rule? :becky:

Rookie'48
11-09-2011, 10:07 PM
I know you did, it was just a joke. But you can still blame the judges, I do, unless I know I screwed it up. :doh:

If I ever start competing again my new team will be called "Judge Number 6". :thumb:

Scottie
11-09-2011, 10:55 PM
Fortunately for all you haters. they do not make my Crocs anymore. I'll just go work on other campaigns i guess. Folks that respect good looking Crocs.

Plowboy
11-09-2011, 11:13 PM
Fortunately for all you haters. they do not make my Crocs anymore. I'll just go work on other campaigns i guess. Folks that respect good looking Crocs.

I have a funny story to tell you about orange crocs next time I see you. Not side splitting, but you'll get a chuckle.

Plowboy
11-09-2011, 11:15 PM
Plowboy in 2012!!!!!!

http://stjent.pinnaclecart.com/images/products/preview/55013.jpg

Plowboy
11-09-2011, 11:16 PM
If I ever start competing again my new team will be called "Judge Number 6". :thumb:

You probably ARE judge #6... I think I've gotten some of your scores. You like 5's a lot, I see.

Muzzlebrake
11-10-2011, 06:10 PM
If elected, I will work to outlaw orange <off/road> Crocs.

apparently fancy orange shoes is a Chicago thing; (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Earl-Bennett-8217-s-fancy-orange-shoes-get-him-?urn=nfl-wp11552)

thank you, oh wise one! Croc Free America!