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View Full Version : Kcbs guarantee just bs?


Sledneck
10-10-2011, 12:14 AM
Is the guarantee that organizers give to kcbs just a bs piece of paper with no real consequences of not fulfilling it?

I had heard that a contest in st Louis was short 5k and they told the teams and hour before turn in

Heres a video of the deal

st. louis blues.mov - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK4lHOopI7Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Bigmista
10-10-2011, 12:28 AM
Dang. This is jacked up.

The Pickled Pig
10-10-2011, 12:51 AM
The first thing I thought when watching the video is was that an Ole Hickory that McGee was cooking on or was he in someone else's space for the interview?

The second thing is why announce it when they did? Why not wait until after turn-ins. The damage was done and I can't see anyone actually pulling out of the event at that point. I would've been upset at the distraction.

That contest is toast. I wouldn't return and from the interviews it seems like that was a consensus. I was competing at another contest where the organizer made a mistake and advertised a quadrupled prize pool by mistake but they honored the stated prizes so it ended up being just fine.

This organizer said everyone would get paid and I think they even said they would be paid in 10 days so I hope he's true to his word. If so, it's not that big of a deal. Several bigger contests wait weeks before mailing checks.

5-0 BBQ
10-10-2011, 06:41 AM
Thats crazy

Cokyjara
10-10-2011, 07:16 AM
Supposedly he finally paid out 18,400 of the 28,000. Some teams keep asking to stop the discussion because "health" of "someone"??. It's on the 30 DAY OUT thread and the "I've been waiting all day, St Louis River Rub" thread. Doesn't seem as though who know, really want to share info? Must be pretty serious.

rookiedad
10-10-2011, 07:21 AM
hope it all works out alright!

Jeff_in_KC
10-10-2011, 07:44 AM
Cokyjara, there are a lot of things going on with this person. Anyone who makes the threats he did needs some help and it doesn't do any good to harp on this. Yes, I understand people didn't get paid and they need to get their money but you seem to be basically pressing for information that you probably don't need. This person shouldn't have taken on a BBQ contest. Plain and simple. Leave it to KCBS and his organization to iron out and stop trying to stir everyone up with this. It's unfortunate. It's not positive for St. Louis BBQ. People aren't happy. But it will do no good for the future of competition barbecue in your city to keep wanting it discussed. If I were in St. Louis and cared about competition BBQ, I'd just want this to go away as quickly as possible.

Sawdustguy
10-10-2011, 07:46 AM
What the hell good is sanctioning then? I understand you get the Reps and such but I thought the KCBS garanteed the prize fund in a sanctioned event?

FatBoyz
10-10-2011, 07:58 AM
I am shuts that people want this to go away but had driven 8 hours to compete and was told all this I would not be happy. What I want to know is what the kc's is going to do to instill confidence in them and there organization. I think it was 7told tears ago in Madison wi that the organizer ran off with the money that started this garanty thing. I hope the board will not deal with this behind closed doors. And I do not think anyone is blaming st Louis bbq people.I don't think this is going to go away this is very serious and dies need to be addressed. We had an organize try to pull a fast one 2 years ago In the dells and I think the kins did a good job with that one.

Ashmont
10-10-2011, 08:11 AM
This is really sad for me to watch....Over 10 years ago we had no bbq contests what so ever in STL. I put one on for several years before Pacific, Herman, Wildwood and others started popping up. This does give our area a black eye! I was going to cook that contest but was asked to cook for the church. With all things lets keep calm..... and hope everything works out. I know there is alot of tension but lets keep a level head.

nthole
10-10-2011, 08:16 AM
Billy, in this case no one was trying to pull a fast one, so the situation is a bit different.

Jeff, well said. I do want to hear how KCBS is going to address a situation like this to ensure it doesn't happen again, so I think the question by Sled and brought up by Rod on the video is valid. But posting on a board won't do anything about it. I sent an email to KCBS yesterday asking why they don't have the cash on deposit with them prior to an event starting, which to me would have seemed like a no brainer. I got a prompt reply back this morning and felt comfortable with how they are looking into it.

Cokyjara, you are pretty new to the board, so I don't know if this contest brought you here, whether you were a cook at the contest or how you are tied to BBQ. I can tell you I was a cook, and I did lose money, and I'm not the only Brethren that did. In the end, the money I lost isn't worth seeing someone who had a good heart lay in personal, professional and financial ruin. Maybe your values run a little different than mine. I do believe a man should back up his words, but I also believe that mistakes happen.

DocStl
10-10-2011, 08:31 AM
What the hell good is sanctioning then? I understand you get the Reps and such but I thought the KCBS garanteed the prize fund in a sanctioned event?

KCBS gets a letter of guaranty from the organizer before the actual contest date. Just a form signed by the organizer saying He will pay as promised.
KCBS and the reps are there to see that the contest follows the guidelines set forth by the sanctioning body. I was at this contest and in no way shape or form hold KCBS or the Reps present for what transpired. When they found out the money situation, they called the KCBS board of directors at 10 am Saturday morning, they then followed the instructions they were given to call the meeting. KCBS did not know the money situation until 10am, The reps were told by the organizer from Fri on that all money was there and accounted for.
The organizer was expecting beer tent sales to make up the 10k shortage by awards time. But it didnt happen.... There was no crowd, I feel bad for the vendors that lost their shirt with little to no sales.

There were a lot of mistakes made in organizing this contest, and I believe that the organizer had good intentions. BUT, IF He had emailed all the teams a week ahead of time and said, We have 18k instead of 28k you can cook or get a refund of your entry fees... I still would have cooked it.. 18k is still a big purse! I tip my hat to anyone who can go out and raise 18k from sponsors in todays economy. I do think that the board made a bad decision when they re structured the payouts, in my opinion they should have reduced the awards to an amount where all the cooks who placed could have taken a little home. The reps did what they were told to do.

All in all in my opinion , the contest accomplished what I see these contests to be about, We spent quality time with good friends, family, and people we enjoy being around. The BBQ community is a tight knit group of people we all consider to be extended family. I had a great time hanging with old friends and making new ones.

Jeff_in_KC
10-10-2011, 08:41 AM
I am shuts that people want this to go away but had driven 8 hours to compete and was told all this I would not be happy. What I want to know is what the kc's is going to do to instill confidence in them and there organization. I think it was 7told tears ago in Madison wi that the organizer ran off with the money that started this garanty thing. I hope the board will not deal with this behind closed doors. And I do not think anyone is blaming st Louis bbq people.I don't think this is going to go away this is very serious and dies need to be addressed. We had an organize try to pull a fast one 2 years ago In the dells and I think the kins did a good job with that one.

OK, had a whole reply typed up and the server was too busy when I clicked submit so I lost it. I'll try to re-type or paraphrase myself! :becky:

There is really no reason to continue to publicly bash this contest. Everyone knows what they know and the video is out there to draw your own conclusions. And some great points were made on it. KCBS should do two things with this - 1. Ensure the organizer makes things right with the teams that did not get what they were entitled to receive and 2. make sure this organizer never puts on another KCBS event again. Neither need to be drawn out in the public eye. Just handle it correctly and let us know they did.

As for St. Louis and blaming St. Louis people, no one has done that. The issue is that there is a black eye on St. Louis competition BBQ. You have to understand where they are in eastern Missouri and specifically the St Louis area. They've been working hard to make competition BBQ more popular and visible in the area for several years now. And something like this sets them back years. Imagine you were a business owner in St. Louis. You've heard about what happened and you are approached by another person putting on a BBQ comp in the area. They want you to sponsor their event. What's your response going to be? If you're a wise business owner but not real familiar with the sport, you're probably going to say no. This hurts the contest and doesn't help to draw teams to town. See where I'm coming from? I was talking to a St Louis area organizer at the contest I cooked this past weekend and he is genuinely afraid of the consequences this will have for BBQ in the area. See why this just needs to be handled swiftly, as quietly as possible and fade to a distant memory?

Smokin' Joe
10-10-2011, 08:47 AM
First, let me say I have no idea what went down this weekend (no youtube at work :)) and have no interest in stiring the pot...just saw the comment above and thought I would provide a little experience we had in the same situation last year...

I cooked a contest last year that did just that - they sent an email the week of the contest stating that they didnt have all the money and were going to have to reduce the prize fund. They were then told by KCBS that they would lose sanctioning if they didnt honor the orginal guaranteed amount. In the end they raised the additional monies and the contest went off as planned.

jbrink01
10-10-2011, 08:53 AM
Well said Jeff Stith!!!!

Blazing Saddles - We Must Do Something! Harrumph! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jshaQbY)

:rolleyes:

bbutts
10-10-2011, 09:47 AM
I am a St. Louis Organizer looking forward to my second year. The first thing I put away after paying my KCBS deposit was the prize money.

I can see with the current process how this could happen.

I agree that the money should either be put on deposit at a reasonable date with KCBS, or a bond be required to cover the money. I do not want to add additional hardships on organizers, but we need to do something to prevent this from happening again.

Just my 2 cents.

Brian

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

FatBoyz
10-10-2011, 10:47 AM
I pray this in now way reflects on the people and organizers in st Louis. This could have happened anywhere. All I dealt want to know and all that should really madder is how or what the kc's is going to do to see that it does not happen again

Jorge
10-10-2011, 11:58 AM
Thanks Steph, for getting that recorded and making it available. It takes almost all of the speculation out of 'what happened'! Now everybody, is pretty much on the same page....and that means waiting.

I got some text messages from that contest this weekend, and as ugly as it was there were some true heroes. Stan and Amy Hays, Shane and Dave Petzold, and others did more than could have been expected of them to make that contest come off! They spent some of their own time and money to go volunteer at a contest and instead of loading up and getting out of Dodge, they stuck around and did everything they could for the teams. Whether you were there or not, you should probably think about thanking them for what they did for BBQ the next time you see them. If it weren't for them, this would most likely have been a lot uglier.

stlgreg
10-10-2011, 01:11 PM
Supposedly he finally paid out 18,400 of the 28,000. Some teams keep asking to stop the discussion because "health" of "someone"??. It's on the 30 DAY OUT thread and the "I've been waiting all day, St Louis River Rub" thread. Doesn't seem as though who know, really want to share info? Must be pretty serious.


There was no "finally"
It was paid out at the awards

stlgreg
10-10-2011, 01:20 PM
The second thing is why announce it when they did? Why not wait until after turn-ins. The damage was done and I can't see anyone actually pulling out of the event at that point.

There was one team that pulled out

C-Town Smoker
10-10-2011, 02:00 PM
FWIW, I will be having Stepanie Wilson on my show tomorrow to give a final once over from the cooks perspective.

Candy Weaver is coming on the show the follwowing week (18th) to talk on the KCBS side of things, what they are responsible for/not responsible for, how they might safeguard this from happening again and so on.

Just to be clear, the show tomorrow will not be a bashing or a beating of a dead horse...we will not be crashing the organizer...if you are interested in the segment tune in for Stephanie around 9:35pm EST.

Slamdunkpro
10-10-2011, 02:22 PM
Is the guarantee that organizers give to kcbs just a bs piece of paper with no real consequences of not fulfilling it?
It's pretty much an illusion. You can require all the guarantor letters you want but unless the organizer posts a bond or puts the prize monies in escrow the only monetary recourse KCBS would have would be some type of civil action after the fact. I doubt KCBS would even have standing to bring suit since it's the cooks, not KCBS that were harmed. (I'll bet KCBS got paid in full). Sure they could decline sanctioning next year but the damage is already done.

I've been at events (not BBQ) where sponsors backed out at the last minute shorting the prize pool and there isn't a lot an organizer can do except tell everyone as soon as they know. Seems to me the biggest error in this case was not that it happened, but how it was handled.

C-Town Smoker
10-10-2011, 02:28 PM
...Seems to me the biggest error in this case was not that it happened, but how it was handled...

I would hazard a guess that most people would agree with that statement!

bbutts
10-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Neither the KCBS or the reps have received their final payment for this event.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Cokyjara
10-10-2011, 03:34 PM
Cokyjara, there are a lot of things going on with this person. Anyone who makes the threats he did needs some help and it doesn't do any good to harp on this. Yes, I understand people didn't get paid and they need to get their money but you seem to be basically pressing for information that you probably don't need. This person shouldn't have taken on a BBQ contest. Plain and simple. Leave it to KCBS and his organization to iron out and stop trying to stir everyone up with this. It's unfortunate. It's not positive for St. Louis BBQ. People aren't happy. But it will do no good for the future of competition barbecue in your city to keep wanting it discussed. If I were in St. Louis and cared about competition BBQ, I'd just want this to go away as quickly as possible.

And who are you decide what I need to know? You want to casually mention "threats" made by ???? to show you are in the "know" and you an many others here sure seem to like the fact you know something others do not. I am new to this forum but have many, many years in this show called BBQ. I have yet to see a single response that acurately refers to something i said and its mostly from a couple of you. I guess we all in the world of KCBS and competition BBQ should feel "comfortable" with such a wonderful and inciteful bunch looking out for the thousands of other teams investing as much as you in competitions? So are you the official BBQ Police? I have to wonder how you would handle hearing little vague snippets about something like this? You would just stop asking questions because someone said "Nope, drop it"??????? when you simply ask to Discuss..... I sure doubt it it!

Jeff_in_KC
10-10-2011, 04:25 PM
And who are you decide what I need to know? You want to casually mention "threats" made by ???? to show you are in the "know" and you an many others here sure seem to like the fact you know something others do not. I am new to this forum but have many, many years in this show called BBQ. I have yet to see a single response that acurately refers to something i said and its mostly from a couple of you. I guess we all in the world of KCBS and competition BBQ should feel "comfortable" with such a wonderful and inciteful bunch looking out for the thousands of other teams investing as much as you in competitions? So are you the official BBQ Police? I have to wonder how you would handle hearing little vague snippets about something like this? You would just stop asking questions because someone said "Nope, drop it"??????? when you simply ask to Discuss..... I sure doubt it it!

Yeah there ya go... show your character. Although I don't consider myself friends with the organizer of this contest, I do know him as he came to observe at ours and I've been around him at the Royal where he was promoting his event. I know him enough to know he has some issues to work out that are in no way anyone's business, mine OR yours. They're personal and not public information. What happened at the contest is, once again, unfortunate. It's done. You want to know what happened? Teams didn't get paid because there wasn't enough sponsor money. Steps have been outlined to correct that situation within 30 days. 4 Smokin' Butts was Grand. Smoking Hills were Reserve Grand. The contest is over. There's nothing else that needs to be said. What "vague snippets" are you referring to? You've no doubt seen the entire 22 minute video. That about sums it up. Nothing vague and not a snippet. Whole story. Right on video. Why do you insist on carrying on about it? Did it effect you personally? You live in St Louis. I would expect you to want this to die a quick death and not be talked about. If you have the time in BBQ you claim you do, you realize the work that organizers and teams have done in your part of the state to make competition BBQ more widespread and popular. This does absolutely nothing to help and damages the groundwork that has been laid by a lot of good people.

Jorge
10-10-2011, 05:11 PM
And who are you decide what I need to know? You want to casually mention "threats" made by ???? to show you are in the "know" and you an many others here sure seem to like the fact you know something others do not. I am new to this forum but have many, many years in this show called BBQ. I have yet to see a single response that acurately refers to something i said and its mostly from a couple of you. I guess we all in the world of KCBS and competition BBQ should feel "comfortable" with such a wonderful and inciteful bunch looking out for the thousands of other teams investing as much as you in competitions? So are you the official BBQ Police? I have to wonder how you would handle hearing little vague snippets about something like this? You would just stop asking questions because someone said "Nope, drop it"??????? when you simply ask to Discuss..... I sure doubt it it!

If you've got that much time in "the show" then I suspect you know someone that could fill you in. If you've noticed, there aren't many folks that were there that are saying much and there's probably for a reason...that being that what is out there publicly at this point covers it. Idle speculation and gossip do NOTHING to resolve any issues that exist.

I don't see the folks that are still owed money lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks at this point. When they do, I'll help raise the alarm. Until them I'll follow the lead of those with the most at stake and let the process work.

If you have questions about that process, then you might want to start a separate thread in the For The Board section.

jbrink01
10-10-2011, 06:11 PM
I was there and I agree with Jeff and Jorge. Leave it alone until we see what happens. Let'a try and keep the good of BBQ as a whole at the forefront and not keep beating the unfortunate actions of a bad organizer. The message must remain "How do we prevent this from EVER happening again".

Rookie'48
10-10-2011, 11:24 PM
Dang Jeff (jbrink01), you've pretty well boiled the whole farkin' thread down to a couple of easy to understand sentences. Thank you :thumb:.

Sledneck
10-11-2011, 05:03 AM
My original intent was not to get in to the small details of that contest. Bottom line is you shouldnt advertise what you don't got. I would rather sign up for a contest and find out at awards that their is more money.

timzcardz
10-11-2011, 06:42 AM
bottom line is you shouldnt advertise what you don't got. I would rather sign up for a contest and find out at awards that their is more money.


E x a c t l y !



.

sprinter
10-11-2011, 08:50 AM
Been cooking for about 8 years and have only seen this done ONCE. There was a contest in Charleston, MO for a few years put on by Lynn Bruce, who has since passed. He was a guy who absolutely LOVED anything BBQ related and Charleston ranked up there as one of the favorite contests of the year for our team. He did an awesome job in my opinion. He announced at awards in the afternoon that since he had so many teams and such good sponsors that he was going to raise the purse. I dont remember how much he raised it but it was not an insignificant number. I think he had a couple grand extra? Talk about a collective YEE HAA from the cookers gathered for awards. It was only the 2nd or 3rd contest I had ever cooked so I didnt know at the time what was really going on but looking back it was pretty significant and I've not seen it happen since. Great contest, great memories.

Matt_A
10-11-2011, 10:06 AM
For Smokin' Up A Storm 2012 I plan on having the prize money in escrow before sending the "guarantee" letter and announcing the prize purse. IF I get more income towards the purse... well, that'll be a surprise announcement at the awards ceremony. This is a charity event, but I am soliciting sponsorships that will go directly to the prize fund. Other sponsors will provide operating capital and services.

ique
10-11-2011, 10:27 AM
Thanks Steph, for getting that recorded and making it available.

Damn, remind me though to never piss off Bill Arnold!

Contracted Cookers
10-11-2011, 07:17 PM
Damn, remind me though to never piss off Bill Arnold!
I didn't think you could.

C-Town Smoker
10-12-2011, 08:20 AM
Damn, remind me though to never piss off Bill Arnold!

If you told him you are going to give him $20....BRING $20!!:-D:-D

deguerre
10-12-2011, 09:30 AM
Is it really the money that matters anyway? If I were to start competing, I wouldn't be going into it with the expectation of a payout. In fact, I'd expect to lose money. If not at each event, at least overall in the long run. But I'd still be there for the fun, the spirit and the friendship. The video shows this in it's own way. Almost everyone still stayed knowing they may or may not get their share of the prize if they walked. Payouts are nice, and promises should be kept, but the money will be spent. A Trophy... that will be with you a lifetime. Hope I'm not out of line but just my .02.

Divemaster
10-12-2011, 09:47 AM
Is it really the money that matters anyway? If I were to start competing, I wouldn't be going into it with the expectation of a payout. In fact, I'd expect to lose money. If not at each event, at least overall in the long run. But I'd still be there for the fun, the spirit and the friendship. The video shows this in it's own way. Almost everyone still stayed knowing they may or may not get their share of the prize if they walked. Payouts are nice, and promises should be kept, but the money will be spent. A Trophy... that will be with you a lifetime. Hope I'm not out of line but just my .02.

While I do agree with about 90% of what you are saying, when I am spending between $500 and $1,000 a contest, and have a chance to make at least a percentage back is nice. To have the rug pulled out from under that possibility is what hurts.

BBQchef33
10-12-2011, 10:01 AM
I understand there is principal involved, and delivery could have beenbetter, but IMO, 18K prize pool is STILL Excellent. If I was notified prior to the contest the pool dropped from 28 to 18k, I'd still be going. (actually, imone of those that dont look much at prize pools to start with unless i have to choose between 2 contest on the same weekend and even at that, Driving distance is more of a factor) . Theres no way I would belive this guy had ill intent.

That being said, in the contest we(BBQ Brethren) organized or headlined, we always put the guaranteed amount in escrow when the letter goes in. It is also the minimum of (entry fee$-$12) x 25 teams. Anthing after that gets announced on the contest website as additional teams sign up and the prize pool increases dynamically. If we dont get 25, we would eat the difference or hope theres extra sponsorship $. (Due to slow sponsors, we are still out over 2.5k from the last contest. It will come in eventually, but I covered it out of pocket.) To take a risk with such a large sum was a bad call yes, but the prize pool was still big by my standards.

ique
10-12-2011, 10:05 AM
I understand there is principal involved, and delivery could have beenbetter, but IMO, 18K prize pool is STILL Excellent.

Yeah but if I send in 300 when the entry is 400 that wont fly. I'd expect the same thing on the other side, stand by your commitment.

Someone gave me the advice, always deliver bad news early... seems to apply here

Scottie
10-12-2011, 02:04 PM
Damn, remind me though to never piss off Bill Arnold!



I think they invited them to step up. Bill did... :thumb:

Rookie'48
10-12-2011, 02:39 PM
It looks to me that the first mistake was in guaranteeing too large of a purse. It's my understanding (I'm not an organizer) that what you guarantee had better be there or you can lose your sanctioning (I could be wrong on this). It would seem that the smarter course would be to guarantee the minimum like Phil said and raise the purse if / when more money comes in. I'm guessing that an $15,000 purse would have drawn the same amount of teams and an anouncement that there was an extra $3,000 would have made him a hero.
Unfortunatly, it's too late to "fix" this contest but we can work to make sure that it doesn't ever happen again.

Skip
10-12-2011, 05:26 PM
Unfortunately people tend to see the worst in people. Thats not directed at anyone in particular in this. All I am saying is that if there COULD be some impropriety the question can always be raised and will always be in the back of your mind.

Look around at the contests out there. This one makes it on the radar of big teams because of the payout. If it were an 18K contest it may still have made it there but a near 30K contest.....that gets around. So to think that it may have been done to lure in big name teams is not out of the question.

Also some are missing the point. Yes a prize pool of 18K would still be great...if it were distributed among those places they guaranteed to pay. Not paying just the top 4 category wins and top 5 overall. 54 payouts were missed from what I gathered. So as many as 54 teams kept their end of the bargain while the organizer did not. On that day. He could very well be sending out checks as we speak.

I wonder how the contest was otherwise. Seems people had fun and may even consider the contest with an escrow account guarantee and the same environment next year. As everyone has said 18K is still a good prize pool even paying to 15.

Fornia
10-12-2011, 07:32 PM
This is a tough one for both sides....let's face the facts. You can understand both sides of course, and we can all agree it could've (and hopefully will be!) been handled better.

But I gotta tell ya. The video hammered home the point...to overkill in my opinion. That video doesn't need to be 22min., does it? The opening had a strange feel of bad professional wrestling. But that could've been the rep and promoter's trembling.

Jeff_in_KC
10-12-2011, 11:04 PM
Also some are missing the point. Yes a prize pool of 18K would still be great...if it were distributed among those places they guaranteed to pay. Not paying just the top 4 category wins and top 5 overall. 54 payouts were missed from what I gathered. So as many as 54 teams kept their end of the bargain while the organizer did not.

The second big mistake came from the KCBS - the board members (whoever they were) instructed the rep to have them pay out the top three or four in categories and four overall (or was it only three?). Anyway, with only 66% of the advertised prize purse available, what SHOULD have happened was that each team who finished in the top 15 in each category and top ten overall (the advertised payout to placements) should have received 66% of the advertised money for that contest. So of I was to get $5000 for Grand, I now get $3300, still a very nice payout for grand! At 15th place in a category, if I was to get $100, I now get $66. That would have been much more fair to all teams.

Matt_A
10-12-2011, 11:46 PM
The organizer said that the rest would be paid, just not right then. So if he's telling the truth and not just wishing, the teams that didn't get paid at the event will eventually get their money.

This is a wait and see. But we have to come up with an iron clad way o guarantee that the promised prize purse IS really available.

FullMoonBBQ
10-13-2011, 08:42 AM
Amen!!!,Jeff
That is def. what should have happened. KCBS dropped the ball on this one. I sure hate to see them wash there hands of this since they made the decision to pay out in that way. We drove 11 hours to this comp. just because of the payout.

Jorge
10-13-2011, 09:16 AM
Is it really the money that matters anyway? If I were to start competing, I wouldn't be going into it with the expectation of a payout. In fact, I'd expect to lose money. If not at each event, at least overall in the long run. But I'd still be there for the fun, the spirit and the friendship. The video shows this in it's own way. Almost everyone still stayed knowing they may or may not get their share of the prize if they walked. Payouts are nice, and promises should be kept, but the money will be spent. A Trophy... that will be with you a lifetime. Hope I'm not out of line but just my .02.

I understand your point, and if that works for some teams or individuals I think that's great. I also see the other side of the coin. Some teams have a hard budget that they are required to stick to. In some cases future contests are possible only if a team is able to offset some of the expense with winnings. Nobody is guaranteed a check, but if the prize list is large enough, the organizer pays deep enough, some teams may be willing to take on a little extra expense for the potential reward. Consider it taking an informed risk or gamble.

If one of those teams happens to place well enough in a category or two that may translate to an additional contest this year or next. For them to potentially get nothing even though the earned it, and possibly have to cancel a planned event isn't right, and it isn't fair.

Chris is right. If the organizer is going to require the teams to pay in full before cooking, the teams have every right to expect to be paid in full if they earn the call.

DocStl
10-13-2011, 10:48 AM
Amen!!!,Jeff
That is def. what should have happened. KCBS dropped the ball on this one. I sure hate to see them wash there hands of this since they made the decision to pay out in that way. We drove 11 hours to this comp. just because of the payout.

Would be nice if KCBS would charge the organizer an extra 2-3.00 per team. organizer sends ALL prize money to KCBS, they bank it and draw interest on money held. They in turn cut the checks for the amounts specified for each category, and send the blank, signed checks with the reps.... just a thought

Divemaster
10-13-2011, 11:19 AM
Would be nice if KCBS would charge the organizer an extra 2-3.00 per team. organizer sends ALL prize money to KCBS, they bank it and draw interest on money held. They in turn cut the checks for the amounts specified for each category, and send the blank, signed checks with the reps.... just a thought

Signed, blank checks just sound dangerous....

Slamdunkpro
10-13-2011, 11:26 AM
Would be nice if KCBS would charge the organizer an extra 2-3.00 per team. organizer sends ALL prize money to KCBS, they bank it and draw interest on money held. They in turn cut the checks for the amounts specified for each category, and send the blank, signed checks with the reps.... just a thought
We don't need to over react due to one event. The last thing smaller events need are more KCBS fees.

DocStl
10-13-2011, 11:36 AM
We don't need to over react due to one event. The last thing smaller events need are more KCBS fees.

Not over reacting, just a passing thought, and a way to guaranty the prize money is there... Not the first contest this has happened to.

Contest we put on we actually paid out more than we advertized

BBQchef33
10-13-2011, 12:01 PM
Wow. I missed the part where he wasn't paying the full depth advertised. I thought he paid full depth with reduced amounts. Heard he was only paying 4 deep and the rest in I.o.u which I thought was 1 level since Kcbs requires to pay 5 deep in cats. Didn't know payout was supposed to be 10 and 15 deep. Now I see the big her problem. Ouch.

Sent from my Droidx using tapatalk and thats probably why the typing is worse than usual.

Jeff_in_KC
10-13-2011, 01:02 PM
Signed, blank checks just sound dangerous....

Yeah, I'm not doing that. As soon as that happens, our contest will use the Brethren sanctioning/rules or IBCA or something else. Over 50 teams - all we need is to have the contest and we are a Jack qualifier.

bbqbull
10-13-2011, 02:49 PM
Moderator note:

The name calling just ended!!!

ABCQer
10-13-2011, 03:30 PM
Thanks Doc. I was organizing the judging tent and did not know until the cooks meeting had started. I believe the organizer had the best intentions and did have a couple of sponsors lower promised money or pull out in the last couple of days. I understand the anger but more so appreciate the professionalism of the vast majority of the teams. BBQ people are the best.

quarters69
10-13-2011, 04:59 PM
The second big mistake came from the KCBS - the board members (whoever they were) instructed the rep to have them pay out the top three or four in categories and four overall (or was it only three?). Anyway, with only 66% of the advertised prize purse available, what SHOULD have happened was that each team who finished in the top 15 in each category and top ten overall (the advertised payout to placements) should have received 66% of the advertised money for that contest. So of I was to get $5000 for Grand, I now get $3300, still a very nice payout for grand! At 15th place in a category, if I was to get $100, I now get $66. That would have been much more fair to all teams.

Agreed, that probably would have been the best route to go. That way ever call still gets paid, just a smaller amount. This might be a note in case it ever happens again. Hopefully not.

Matt_A
10-13-2011, 05:47 PM
Would be nice if KCBS would charge the organizer an extra 2-3.00 per team. organizer sends ALL prize money to KCBS, they bank it and draw interest on money held. They in turn cut the checks for the amounts specified for each category, and send the blank, signed checks with the reps.... just a thought
I'm sorry, there's no way I'd send thousands of dollars of prize money to KCBS. :crazy: And there is no way I would want KCBS to EVER send a :shock: blank signed check :shock: to anyone... if it went astray it could disappear the prize money in an instant.

jbrink01
10-13-2011, 06:57 PM
I was there, and, BTW, so was a bit of concealed personal protection......I know several of those commenting and respect them. For those that I don't, I trust you cook contests regularly and speak from a position of experience?

MilitantSquatter
10-13-2011, 07:09 PM
Thread scrubbed (again)..

Please keep this on topic..

This thread is not about the philosophy of acceptable posting ettiquette on BBQ forums. If anyone has questions/concerns about that, please PM a moderator

Matt_A
10-13-2011, 08:28 PM
In the combined knowledge of all here, how many times has something like this happened at a sanctioned event?

Rookie'48
10-13-2011, 09:02 PM
Would be nice if KCBS would charge the organizer an extra 2-3.00 per team. organizer sends ALL prize money to KCBS, they bank it and draw interest on money held. They in turn cut the checks for the amounts specified for each category, and send the blank, signed checks with the reps.... just a thought

In addition to all of the above reasons why I don't like this idea, how do you add in the money from the growing number of teams that pay when they pull in on Friday?

Crash
10-14-2011, 01:53 AM
In the combined knowledge of all here, how many times has something like this happened at a sanctioned event?
What exactly do you mean? An organizer being short funds doing partial payouts and IOUing the rest of the teams?

I know of a west coast contest many years ago where almost all of the checks bounced....even our $25 best booth check. :-D

That contest had no cash payouts, just checks.

Jeff Hughes
10-14-2011, 09:07 AM
In the combined knowledge of all here, how many times has something like this happened at a sanctioned event?

Well, some guys got burned in OKC 5 or 6 years ago when an organizer cashed entry fee checks and then the event failed to materialize...

Bounced prize money checks, sure...

Greendriver
10-14-2011, 04:48 PM
glad this forum allowed everyone to comment on it. never any harm in that.

Jeff_in_KC
10-14-2011, 08:19 PM
glad this forum allowed everyone to comment on it. never any harm in that.

Unless it gets to the point of being a witch hunt and harms the future of BBQ in a certain area.

stlgreg
10-15-2011, 12:21 PM
The second big mistake came from the KCBS - the board members (whoever they were) instructed the rep to have them pay out the top three or four in categories and four overall (or was it only three?). Anyway, with only 66% of the advertised prize purse available, what SHOULD have happened was that each team who finished in the top 15 in each category and top ten overall (the advertised payout to placements) should have received 66% of the advertised money for that contest. So of I was to get $5000 for Grand, I now get $3300, still a very nice payout for grand! At 15th place in a category, if I was to get $100, I now get $66. That would have been much more fair to all teams.

the only thing that I can figure out the ruling on this is since the ogranizer is paying out the money it will be eaiser to just t i can figure is since the organizer is paying out the money - it would be easier to just keep paying down when the money arrives.

For anyone to figure out what they have paid and hasnt paid, is just asking for more mistakes.

DocStl
10-16-2011, 09:21 AM
In addition to all of the above reasons why I don't like this idea, how do you add in the money from the growing number of teams that pay when they pull in on Friday?

For one, the organizer pay KCBS at the end of the contest based on how many teams attended

DocStl
10-16-2011, 09:28 AM
I'm sorry, there's no way I'd send thousands of dollars of prize money to KCBS. :crazy: And there is no way I would want KCBS to EVER send a :shock: blank signed check :shock: to anyone... if it went astray it could disappear the prize money in an instant.

You trust them in every aspect of your contest, but not with your money?, you can have reps as signers on an account to sign onsite, or bring a check printer, there are many ways to do it. Surety bonds also.

G$
10-16-2011, 12:15 PM
What exactly do you mean? An organizer being short funds doing partial payouts and IOUing the rest of the teams?

I know of a west coast contest many years ago where almost all of the checks bounced....even our $25 best booth check. :-D

That contest had no cash payouts, just checks.

I never got mine for that one.

Mrs. McFrankenboo
10-16-2011, 12:36 PM
I never got mine for that one.

Neither did we so that happened to us twice now in 2 different parts of the country!:crazy:

Leatherheadiowa
10-16-2011, 10:26 PM
The solution looks like it would be very simple in my young eyes.
The guarantee funds are sent to KCBS to be placed in escrow. At the same time the organizer lays out the payout schedule and submitts that to KCBS. Additional funds received prior to one week from the contest date are sent to KCBS.
On the Tuesday prior KCBS would use a computer based check printing program to print the finalized payouts. Someone at KCBS would then place the checks that were audited by another set of eyes at KCBS in a FEDEX Express envelope and sent to the contest rep at the site. The organizer would NOT open the FEDEX package until the contest rep was there to do a final audit.
They would be stored with the reps and after turn ins the payable line would be completed and the payees would be recorded on a log provided by KCBS in the FEDEX package.
Awards are given, everyone has a good time, especially those that get a check.

Plowboy
10-16-2011, 10:58 PM
The solution looks like it would be very simple in my young eyes.
The guarantee funds are sent to KCBS to be placed in escrow. At the same time the organizer lays out the payout schedule and submitts that to KCBS. Additional funds received prior to one week from the contest date are sent to KCBS.
On the Tuesday prior KCBS would use a computer based check printing program to print the finalized payouts. Someone at KCBS would then place the checks that were audited by another set of eyes at KCBS in a FEDEX Express envelope and sent to the contest rep at the site. The organizer would NOT open the FEDEX package until the contest rep was there to do a final audit.
They would be stored with the reps and after turn ins the payable line would be completed and the payees would be recorded on a log provided by KCBS in the FEDEX package.
Awards are given, everyone has a good time, especially those that get a check.

Yes, that sure is A solution. :roll: What does that process cost? What is the revenue necessary to support the process? What are the contingencies if something goes wrong with FedEx or the receiving end? What if the reps are road tripping across the country when the checks are being overnighted? You want signed checks sent through FedEx without any names on the checks themselves? So, a contest with a $125,000 purse would have their checks sent NAMELESS days before the contest through a shipping company? DAMN!

Personally, I think KCBS should stay out of the money all together. That is a bad position to be in.

Who are you? I saw you posted somewhere else that you are running for KCBS BOD, but I don't see a name and you joined four days ago. Must be about the same time you decided to run for the board. :rolleyes:

Rookie'48
10-16-2011, 11:12 PM
In addition to all of the above reasons why I don't like this idea, how do you add in the money from the growing number of teams that pay when they pull in on Friday?

Still - How do you add in the cash money that ABC Cookers hands to the organizer on Friday morning when he pulls in the gate? There seems to be a growing number of teams who either don't send the money with their entry form or wait until the last minute to decide to enter (due to vacation days / money available / team members schedules, etc.).
If you're having KCBS do the check printing what about those funds - how do you add THAT money onto a pre-printed check?
Also, for KCBS to handle all of the extra record keeping, bank accounts, check writing, etc, I think that there would have to be an increase in the fee that they charge the organizer - do you really want to get into all that?

Plowboy
10-16-2011, 11:16 PM
Still - How do you add in the cash money that ABC Cookers hands to the organizer on Friday morning when he pulls in the gate? There seems to be a growing number of teams who either don't send the money with their entry form or wait until the last minute to decide to enter (due to vacation days / money available / team members schedules, etc.).
If you're having KCBS do the check printing what about those funds - how do you add THAT money onto a pre-printed check?
Also, for KCBS to handle all of the extra record keeping, bank accounts, check writing, etc, I think that there would have to be an increase in the fee that they charge the organizer - do you really want to get into all that?

Exactly.

Leatherheadiowa
10-17-2011, 09:11 AM
I agree there would be more work but the level of competitive integrity that competitors demand would be there. You ask the handful of agitated people in St. Louis what it would be worth if they wouldn't have had to deal with that ordeal. Did Bill Arnold's chicken suffer, Johnny Triggs rib cooking get sidetracked because of the emergency meeting? Any additional funds could be written on a seperate check. I would rather have the guarantee, guaranteed to be paid out. Last minute entrants will happen until the cows come home and if an organizer is banking on ten teams to pull in on Friday afternoon In order to cover the guarantee they are going to end up being the star of a video like the guy in St. louis and we can start this discussion all over. I think that organizers need to look at successful organizers like Ruth in Mason City for guidance. I think taking some of the risk away from organizers would be very good idea since many organizers are a one man/ woman show.
Checks and balances are too seldom forgotten in society today in many facets of government and industry and someone else always ends up being on the short end of the stick and the KCBS could set a standard among society on how things can work.

nthole
10-17-2011, 10:20 AM
I think there has to be some reality here. There is simply NO CHANCE anyone is mailing or shipping filled out and signed blank checks...ever. So that idea really is out. It just isn't going to happen.

That said, if the organizer had to have, on deposit, the guaranteed funds with KCBS a certain amount of time before the contest, KCBS could do a money transfer to the organizer's choice account the week of the contest to return the money and then the organizer is responsible from that point on. The money WAS there, KCBS can guarantee that. If the organizer is a scheister, then they'll take the heat. But I think most people would look at that as a best faith effort by KCBS. Money transfer costs are nominal, maybe $50, which might be a lot for an individual, but with thousands on the line would be a reasonable cost to incur.

Editted to add:
Forgot to mention, in this scenario, the organizer will be fully able to add in any additional monies since they are in control of the final payouts.

Plowboy
10-17-2011, 10:38 AM
I agree there would be more work but the level of competitive integrity that competitors demand would be there. You ask the handful of agitated people in St. Louis what it would be worth if they wouldn't have had to deal with that ordeal. Did Bill Arnold's chicken suffer, Johnny Triggs rib cooking get sidetracked because of the emergency meeting? Any additional funds could be written on a seperate check. I would rather have the guarantee, guaranteed to be paid out. Last minute entrants will happen until the cows come home and if an organizer is banking on ten teams to pull in on Friday afternoon In order to cover the guarantee they are going to end up being the star of a video like the guy in St. louis and we can start this discussion all over. I think that organizers need to look at successful organizers like Ruth in Mason City for guidance. I think taking some of the risk away from organizers would be very good idea since many organizers are a one man/ woman show.
Checks and balances are too seldom forgotten in society today in many facets of government and industry and someone else always ends up being on the short end of the stick and the KCBS could set a standard among society on how things can work.

How many organizers are going to be willing to pony up more money for these checks and balances that aren't needed 99.999% of the time? If I was a long time organizer that NEVER had a problem with payouts, why would this be a good thing for me? You mention Ruth as being a successful organizer. Is Ruth going to sign up for this? I'll bet she thinks it is overkill and another expense she doesn't need. I certainly would.

There is cost to your proposed process. As a cook, I'd rather have more money in the purse than less in order to have these checks, balances and guarantees in place. I'd rather have more contests than less because KCBS fees are out of reach for small or start up contests. One jackass move by an organizer does not constitute additional overhead. I'm sorry about Bill Arnold's chicken or whatever, but Bill's cooked hundreds of contests and will, God willing, cook hundreds more. In the greater view, I'm sure Bill would agree that sapping hundreds or thousands of dollars across all of those contests isn't worth the guarantee necessary to preserve the one F'd up one he got burned at.

This all sounds like federal government thinking where we create more legislation and cost for a fringe issue.

If these are the kinds of solutions you plan to bring to the KCBS BOD, you certainly don't have my vote. Again, who are you? Do you cook, judge, rep?

Plowboy
10-17-2011, 10:41 AM
I think there has to be some reality here. There is simply NO CHANCE anyone is mailing or shipping filled out and signed blank checks...ever. So that idea really is out. It just isn't going to happen.

That said, if the organizer had to have, on deposit, the guaranteed funds with KCBS a certain amount of time before the contest, KCBS could do a money transfer to the organizer's choice account the week of the contest to return the money and then the organizer is responsible from that point on. The money WAS there, KCBS can guarantee that. If the organizer is a scheister, then they'll take the heat. But I think most people would look at that as a best faith effort by KCBS. Money transfer costs are nominal, maybe $50, which might be a lot for an individual, but with thousands on the line would be a reasonable cost to incur.

Editted to add:
Forgot to mention, in this scenario, the organizer will be fully able to add in any additional monies since they are in control of the final payouts.

Don't forget other costs like KCBS staff (real $$$), organizer time (could be real $$$ or more volunteer time demands), banking fees, etc.

I think we've established that out of the hundreds of contests put on each year through KCBS, you can count these issues on one hand and maybe still have digits leftover. Overkill, overkill, overkill.

Jorge
10-17-2011, 11:04 AM
I think there are easier, more reasonable solutions that don't involve the liability. I don't think you could even insure those checks and if they go missing KCBS is most likely liable for the entire amount. Beyond that, I don't know that it's a good idea for it to become public knowledge that KCBS reps are in posession of thousands in signed checks each weekend. It's just asking for some thug(s) to look for a quick score Friday night after the reps are back in their hotel.

I think it's reasonable for KCBS to require some additional verification of the funds being in place as the contest nears. One difficulty comes with with some of the large $$ contests. Some of those sponsors writing the really big checks aren't going to turn that money over months in advance. I think it's possible to come up with a system of checks and balances that addresses the issue, but I don't think this one incident is devastating enough to come up with a complicated system that exposes everyone to even greater liability.

nthole
10-17-2011, 11:12 AM
Don't forget other costs like KCBS staff (real $$$), organizer time (could be real $$$ or more volunteer time demands), banking fees, etc.

I think we've established that out of the hundreds of contests put on each year through KCBS, you can count these issues on one hand and maybe still have digits leftover. Overkill, overkill, overkill.

I do actually agree with you. I don't think it's necessary. But if there is an absolute drive that something MUST be done, I'm just trying to think of a reasonable solution. I don't know how many contests happened last year, but an eyeball of a copy and paste from the KCBS site would lead me to believe some where between 400 and 500. If this was the only contest this year that had a serious issue, then 99.8% of contests don't have issues, so it would be hard to justify doing anything differently than is done now.

Plowboy
10-17-2011, 11:41 AM
I think there are easier, more reasonable solutions that don't involve the liability. I don't think you could even insure those checks and if they go missing KCBS is most likely liable for the entire amount. Beyond that, I don't know that it's a good idea for it to become public knowledge that KCBS reps are in posession of thousands in signed checks each weekend. It's just asking for some thug(s) to look for a quick score Friday night after the reps are back in their hotel.

I think it's reasonable for KCBS to require some additional verification of the funds being in place as the contest nears. One difficulty comes with with some of the large $$ contests. Some of those sponsors writing the really big checks aren't going to turn that money over months in advance. I think it's possible to come up with a system of checks and balances that addresses the issue, but I don't think this one incident is devastating enough to come up with a complicated system that exposes everyone to even greater liability.

I hadn't yet thought of the liability insurance KCBS would require. Another cost.

This is why you have my vote for KCBS BOD, El Jefe. Big picture thinker. :thumb:

Leatherheadiowa
10-17-2011, 11:44 AM
How many organizers are going to be willing to pony up more money for these checks and balances that aren't needed 99.999% of the time? If I was a long time organizer that NEVER had a problem with payouts, why would this be a good thing for me? You mention Ruth as being a successful organizer. Is Ruth going to sign up for this? I'll bet she thinks it is overkill and another expense she doesn't need. I certainly would.

There is cost to your proposed process. As a cook, I'd rather have more money in the purse than less in order to have these checks, balances and guarantees in place. I'd rather have more contests than less because KCBS fees are out of reach for small or start up contests. One jackass move by an organizer does not constitute additional overhead. I'm sorry about Bill Arnold's chicken or whatever, but Bill's cooked hundreds of contests and will, God willing, cook hundreds more. In the greater view, I'm sure Bill would agree that sapping hundreds or thousands of dollars across all of those contests isn't worth the guarantee necessary to preserve the one F'd up one he got burned at.

This all sounds like federal government thinking where we create more legislation and cost for a fringe issue.

If these are the kinds of solutions you plan to bring to the KCBS BOD, you certainly don't have my vote. Again, who are you? Do you cook, judge, rep?
My name is BJ Hoffman, I cook and I am a certified judge. I am new here to the forum. I responded to the post in the way I believe is appropriate. You are completely right about this happening very rarely and in my opinion may not be worth addressing at all. That being said, you, me, and numerous others have weighed in here and for us to weigh in and take time to do so there may be an issue.
I cook with a small, self funded team in 8-12 contests each year. We have been to contests where there have been human errors that resulted in changes in awards and the corresponding pay. We accepted the fact that unintentional things happen and lived with it.
Many people don't care about alot of things until it happens to them and then they wish something was in place to help them. As a candidate I would rather take a stance and be proactive and eliminate issues so this topic and topics where oversight has lacked wouldn't be relevant.
As a smaller scale competitor that competes for fun, for the sake of time with my family, and for the chance of winning I want the best chance for me and the rest of the teams like the one I compete with. Our team can't afford to have our best weekend to be the one where things are turned upside down when it didn't have to be that way at all.

Greendriver
10-17-2011, 11:58 AM
Due to the various reasons mentioned already, I'm not sure KCBS handling the payout money would work. BUT it would be very easy to do and cost effective if handled the right way. I did Rapid Refunds for a few years and each year would recieve 500 "signed" blank checks from some of the largest banks in the nation before tax season started. The checks and their #'s are recorded in the software used to do the tax forms and are no good until you complete said tax form. The bank made out fine without a large fee due to the time value of money on deposit. KCBS could have the reps software updated to include this option and print the checks after turn ins and along with the scores. Computer are both a wonderful thing and a PIA at the same time.