Contest Etiquette

[bbqbandit70]

I'll start by saying I not sure if this is the place for this but here it goes. I was out in KC for the Royal this past week to visit some of my wife's family. I took the Judging class Thursday and was able to judge the open. After I checked in on Sunday my wife and I went to walk around the sites looking and taking picture of good looking sites. We saw some of the big names(I will not include their names) and took some pictures, my wife said don't you want to go up and say hi. It was 10:00 AM and I did not want to bother anyone this close to turn in as we were starting to go back to the judging area we saw another legend of the sport so from about 20-25 feet away in the public area we took a few pictures, my wife asked me about the pit and I was explaining it to her (Jambo) a competitor from another team across the lane from where we were came over and said very snotty (I'm being nice here) "I'm security for ????? today please let the legend cook and not bother him he got beat up yesterday" He was standing between us and him again about 20-25 feet away. Now having a team I know what it is like during that time and would never go up to anyone unless they speak first but I thought this guy was out of line. I could see his point if I was standing on the other side of the smoker but that far away I was closer to another team than I was him. Not wanting to interrupt the "legend" we walked away and I did not argue with this guy. My wife was upset walking away wonder if we did do something wrong and did say don't you ever treat anyone that way during competition. I do not feel angry with the legend he was just doing his thing. Am I wrong in feeling this guy was out of line. And if the out of line guy is on this site feel free to explain your self. Thanks for listening.












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ADMIN NOTE:
Before commenting on this thread. Be advised that the issue has been worked out between both parties in the following posts and both sides have explained the course of events. Please read the thread before further comment. In other words, put away the torch and pitchfork and dont jump on anyone until you read the whole thing.

[ModelMaker]

I would blame the rent-a-cop more than the Legend. If you weren't bothering him I'm sure he didn't mind. Let it roll off and give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
Ed

[Dan - 3eyzbbq]

Well don't tell half the story, who is the legend?

[Jeff_in_KC]

I'd question the need for a rent-a-cop in the first place. Maybe I don't understand because I'm not a legend! LOL! I guess some guys get hammered for photos and autographs and need some sort of a buffer between them and the public while they are busy. But I bet this "legend" would not have been happy with his security for being such an ___ to fans.

[Slamdunkpro]

We had a sign asking people not to disturb us when the sign was up (turn-ins were going on). Even with Myron standing right there in the open everyone respected it. I suspect someone (the rentacop) was taking themselves a little too seriously.

[jbrink01]

I know of whom you speak. I suspect it was a combination of people that didn't respect his time Saturday and a snotty security guy. I will defend the legend by saying I'm nobody, and I had people wanting to talk about my sponsor while I was working.....I quickly explained I was busy, but it comes with the territory. Now, If I had that 100 fold, I would have put up a fence like Rod did.

[jbrink01]

Just a thought....the AR could put up a fence that excluded visitors ONLY during turn-ins and charge teams $$ if they deemed themselves self-important enough to pay for turn-in isolation. Seems better than using pissy rent-a-cops.

[bbqbandit70]

I do not blame the legend one bit he had nothing to do with it and the rent a cop was another competitor not actual security that's just what he said.(I am just not saying the name to keep his privacy) I was not in the way and no where near the legend. This was just a helpie helperton trying to look cool in front of this guy.

[Podge]

10:00 am on the day of a HUGE competition....... come on man !!... Really ?!?!?!?... If it were me, I'd stayed away.. completely.. on saturday morning.. no if's and's or but's..

[Dan - 3eyzbbq]

I just think protecting his privacy is a good way to start rumors. You mention a jambo, so I think tuffy (no), trigg (maybe), rod (maybe). Just say the name or don't post. Just my opinion.

[bbqbandit70]

OK no one has a problem, it was Trigg and as I said i was closer to other teams then him in the walk way 20 to 25 feet away not in his area again i don't blame him, and stay away completely would mean leaving the royal site completely. as i walked up the next row to the building other people were also walking around. So really i do think the other guy was out of line.

[HBMTN]

Me myself, I sure hope that one day people will come bother me while I am cooking at the American Royal Invitational. Even more, I hope they know who I am when they come bother me. :becky:


Seriously though, if your 25 feet away that should not be a problem ever. If someone is too famous that it bothers them to have people taking pic's of them from 25ft away then that is sad.

[bbqbandit70]

I'm sure he did not care that we took pictures from a distance and for less then a minute it was just the other competitor trying to be a hero. He could have said a lot of other things that would not have been a problem but he was nasty and that's where I have the problem.

[huminie]

Personally, I don't think judges should be anywhere near the teams as they prepare for turn-ins on the morning of a contest. Visit the night before if you want, but the morning of a contest, judges should not be out talking to teams or taking pictures of them and their sites.

As far as this guy goes, maybe he was out of line, but maybe Johnny had mentioned how much he had been bothered the day before. But Johnny is a big boy and can firmly and politely tell people to not disturb him during that time. If he was that bothered by it he would have a canopy with walls up. I personally just tell folks "sorry, I can't talk now while I am busy with my turn ins...feel free to watch and I will answer any questions you have when the last turn in is done." So far everyone has been understanding, but I am no legend, so I am sure Johnny has more to deal with than I do.

[Pack-A-Smokes]

I was just thinking to be at that point where you would have to have someone guard your site...Then only time I get bothered is someone asking for directions to the porta-potty.
Really, I do get pretty upset when people enter my site without being invited. That being said, I put up walls and would not care if someone was 25' away taking pics if I didn't have walls up.

[Rookie'48]

Off the top I'll say that the "security" guy was most likely taking himself too seriously. On the other hand, when Mike Lake told us to be back in our seats at 11:20 I took a walk in the expo hall & looked at all of the toys that I can't afford. I do my visiting on the night before (leaving before midnight) or after judging, that way there's not a chance of a problem like that.

[bbqbandit70]

Thats my point the guy was getting too serious and nasty to the point he really upset my wife. I was not visiting teams the day of (thats why i avoided the team i was hanging with friday night) just walking around. I guess there's one in every crowd.

[JD McGee]

It was the security guy for sure...even if it was per Johnny's wishes (which I seriously doubt) 25 feet is a helluva buffer zone to snap a few pics. Johnny handles his "legend" status with cool professionalism always...:cool:

[Jeff_in_KC]

Didn't you see the one episode of Pitmasters in season one where they mentioned something in Johnny's boot? If he reached down and it looked like he was just gonna pull his socks up, I'd run like hell! :becky: And JD is right... Johnny handles his status with class and always has time for folks to take photos and to tell a story. Love seeing him pose in pics with the young 'uns. Class act without a doubt.

[DawgPhan]

I am sure that this was a joke that you didnt get.

[Big Poppa]

Hey Guys it was me. Johnny asked for help...he just couldnt cook the day before. Trish tried...they needed help. But I really apologize if I offended these people. I love the internet because there are two sides here and here is mine.

I didn't act as anything but Johnny's friend. I was not and never have been a rent a cop. I would never stop someone from taking a picture of anyone at a comp from a FRONT view. The pic I stopped was a shot from behind and at the side while Johnny was foiling his ribs. I was polite and said that this photo was probably not the best choice and not the appropriate time. I went on to explain that Johnny couldn't stop as the day before was really hard. I also said that Johnny would be happy to pose for pics after turn in.

In the court of the brethren I believe that the photo wasnt the question it was the timing and choice of angle of the shot

By the way Johnny thanked me for how I handled it.

I am truly sorry if I offended you or your wife. I would not have said anything at all if you weren't taking a shot that showed what Johnny was doing.

[bbqbandit70]

That was my main reason for posting i did not feel like i did anything wrong I know people see things different. I did not think about the angle and the thought of catching his technique. My wife was more interested in the smoker. With that explanation if I did take it wrong I do apologize. All the people I have ever met have always been great. I walked away quickly because I did not want to interrupt his work and get him out of his game. With this I hope it can be done with and all can look forward to our next comps. Live and learn.

[dhuffjr]

Me myself, I sure hope that one day people will come bother me while I am cooking at the American Royal Invitational. Even more, I hope they know who I am when they come bother me. :becky:

Ditto :becky:

[Bigmista]

Whew! Glad that was settled.

[JD McGee]

Whew! Glad that was settled.
Same here brother...there's always a flipside to every story...btw...what are you and Sterling doing in a couple of weeks? Rhana and I can use a good runner and blocker for the Jack...lol!

Ya know...what may be innocent pic snapping by fans at comps can also be mistaken for shigging by the comp team...especially when zoom lenses during turn ins are noticed...good on ya Sterling for having Johnny's back!

[nthole]

So you're saying I SHOULDN'T go to the Royal next year with a telescope size zoom lens, walking around the with a shifty look and accidentally crawling on top of people's trailers to get a better look?

:wink:

Johnny will be cooking in St. Louis this weekend. I can't wait to see him, hope to get to meet him...will definitely stay away from his boot!

[Big Poppa]

I think we are all good....I think his wife still hates me but maybe a box of chocolates or a bag of mistas pig candy may repair the wounds!

Any of these things are good and shows the class of the op....Secretly I was upset she wasnt taking pics of my new glasses

[Plowboy]

Sounds like a whole lot of misunderstanding. Like someone said, 10am is an insane time at BBQ competitions. But 10am on Sunday of the American Royal is worse. People are fried no matter how they did the day before. Sometimes what we say and what we hear are both affected. Hopefully, this is cleared up. Knowing that Sterling and Johnny had just spent 72 hours in a parking lot cooking, I'd probably give them the benefit of the doubt even if I felt the approach could have been less terse. I'm not saying anyone was more wrong or more right here, but there are multiple perspectives to choose from.

The Royal is unlike any other competition. It is two monsters rolled up into one huge weekend. There are two aspects that make it unique to almost all other contests: size and "the turn". Even I had my "blockers' during key times throughout the weekend. You have so many people to visit with that it can become a distraction to actually cooking. Hopefully, we didn't offend anyone, but I can't say for sure. For the most part, people understand. "The Turn" is the other crazy part of the weekend. For those cooking both the invitational and open, closing out one contest while preparing for the next is a major challenge. To focus when you are dog tired can be a big challenge. However, "The Turn" is a significant part of the fun. There are other back to back contests out there, but none where you have 500 teams on the second day working for one of the biggest prizes in BBQ.

I love the Royal, but am glad it only comes once a year.

[Matt_A]

As a newly trained CBJ, you should have been very aware of the rule that judges not fraternize with the teams on turn-in day. There are many people that read that as not entering the cooking site at all. In fact I heard a contest rep say specifically that at a recent contest. It all comes down to how others perceive your actions. Personally I don't see how "fraternization" can have any significant impact on a double-blind judging contest. But somebody saw a need for the rule. Unless you were talking to cooks during your tour that morning, I don't see any issue.

As for the "Self-Appointed Security Guard" my response would probably have been drastically different from yours, but that's just my personality. I would have introduced myself to the self-import person and relentlessly, but politely interrogated him about his authority to interfere with the activities of a private citizen at a public event.

[Pappy Q]

I'm sure he did not care that we took pictures from a distance and for less then a minute it was just the other competitor trying to be a hero. He could have said a lot of other things that would not have been a problem but he was nasty and that's where I have the problem.

If you don't blame the "Legend" and say it was another competitor trying to show off, then call that guy out but don't disrespect Trigg. He has done more good for BBQ than about anyone. Your making a big deal out of nothing cause you got your feelings hurt. Get over it.

[Plowboy]

As a newly trained CBJ, you should have been very aware of the rule that judges not fraternize with the teams on turn-in day. There are many people that read that as not entering the cooking site at all. In fact I heard a contest rep say specifically that at a recent contest. It all comes down to how others perceive your actions. Personally I don't see how "fraternization" can have any significant impact on a double-blind judging contest. But somebody saw a need for the rule. Unless you were talking to cooks during your tour that morning, I don't see any issue.

As for the "Self-Appointed Security Guard" my response would probably have been drastically different from yours, but that's just my personality. I would have introduced myself to the self-import person and relentlessly, but politely interrogated him about his authority to interfere with the activities of a private citizen at a public event.

He didn't say he was fraternizing. He was walking around taking pictures. This is "legal", but I wish judges wouldn't leave the area on turn in mornings. If they saw one of their favorite teams cooking leg quarters or spare ribs instead of baby back ribs, could that influence their scores. Best to avoid that kind of speculation. But again, they weren't doing anything wrong from a judging rules perspective.

If you don't blame the "Legend" and say it was another competitor trying to show off, then call that guy out but don't disrespect Trigg. He has done more good for BBQ than about anyone. Your making a big deal out of nothing cause you got your feelings hurt. Get over it.

Let's all leave the torches and pitch forks in the shed. Escalating this won't make it better.

[Matt_A]

Plowboy.. did you miss... "Unless you were talking to cooks during your tour that morning, I don't see any issue."??

[bover]

Well, the double blind judging isn't quite so double blind once you've been around awhile. If they're only switching the first digit of the team number, an unscrupulous judge could favor a team if they knew the original number and happened to have that entry cross their table. Until a more random number re-assignment method is developed and enforced, I don't think judges should be in the contest area at all...especially on turn-in day.

[Plowboy]

Plowboy.. did you miss... "Unless you were talking to cooks during your tour that morning, I don't see any issue."??

I did. Sorry, bro. :icon_blush:

[Matt_A]

Well, the double blind judging isn't quite so double blind once you've been around awhile. If they're only switching the first digit of the team number, an unscrupulous judge could favor a team if they knew the original number and happened to have that entry cross their table. Until a more random number re-assignment method is developed and enforced, I don't think judges should be in the contest area at all...especially on turn-in day.

THREAD HIJACK IN PROGRESS!!!!

I think that this "favoritism" is a non-issue that has been blown way out of proportion. In a properly run event, you'll only see a particular team's box for one category. On top of that you have a pretty small chance of seeing your particular "favorite team"'s turn-in. The chances of affecting the outcome of a single category, much less the overall standings is statistically insignificant. Your score as a judge is only 20% of the score for your table for that category.

That being said. I honor the rule, even though I disagree with it.

HIJACK OVER. I'm not posting on judging in this thread anymore. :tsk:

[Scottie]

Well don't tell half the story, who is the legend?


Wasnt me... :shock:

[Jorge]

Plowboy.. did you miss... "Unless you were talking to cooks during your tour that morning, I don't see any issue."??

Plowboy pointed out a potential issue that could violate the integrity of the process.

[Scottie]

I think we are all good....I think his wife still hates me but maybe a box of chocolates or a bag of mistas pig candy may repair the wounds!

Any of these things are good and shows the class of the op....Secretly I was upset she wasnt taking pics of my new glasses


New glasses?? Figures... i finally get mine that match yours and you get new ones? WTF... :becky:

I thought that is why you have 'people' Sterling?:thumb:

In all seriousness. Good for you Sterling. Johnny is the man and id go through a wall for Trish. My girls just love them death. I would have done the exact s:shock:ame thing.

[Big Poppa]

Uh oh..... Scottie would have done what i did?????? hahahahahah Everybody relax we are all good and the original poster and I have exchanged pm's....I think its good...I truly believe that the photo op was innocent but having a pic of johnny with his cooker that matches his bottle he wsa holding would be like snapping the Johnny Cash finger picture.....Im just sayin.

But seriously the people that were there are finenow.... I called Johnny and thanked him for getting me in trouble...I told him it wasnt 1991 anymore and that he cant set up without an easy up in the middle of the aisle! We tried to move his cooker all weekend. Has anyone ever told you that Mr. Trigg can be a tad stubborn?

Please if possible can we just have fun?

Johnny was bragging to all he talked to saying he has a billionaire for security...I corrected him I am a thousandaire.

[Plowboy]

Uh oh..... Scottie would have done what i did?????? hahahahahah Everybody relax we are all good and the original poster and I have exchanged pm's....I think its good...I truly believe that the photo op was innocent but having a pic of johnny with his cooker that matches his bottle he wsa holding would be like snapping the Johnny Cash finger picture.....Im just sayin.

But seriously the people that were there are finenow.... I called Johnny and thanked him for getting me in trouble...I told him it wasnt 1991 anymore and that he cant set up without an easy up in the middle of the aisle! We tried to move his cooker all weekend. Has anyone ever told you that Mr. Trigg can be a tad stubborn?

Please if possible can we just have fun?

Johnny was bragging to all he talked to saying he has a billionaire for security...I corrected him I am a thousandaire.

I'm a hundredaire. Just one though.

[G$]

I truly believe that the photo op was innocent but having a pic of johnny with his cooker that matches his bottle he wsa holding would be like snapping the Johnny Cash finger picture.....Im just sayin.



Man, I almost don't want to ask this question, but is it OK for you to know "what bottle Johnny was holding" but not OK for the OP to?

[Jorge]

I called Johnny and thanked him for getting me in trouble...

How long did he laugh:-P:becky:

[Contracted Cookers]

Man, I almost don't want to ask this question, but is it OK for you to know "what bottle Johnny was holding" but not OK for the OP to?he should put his DR. PEPPER in another bottle so people don't know what he is useing.

[Jeff_in_KC]

Sounds like a whole lot of misunderstanding. Like someone said, 10am is an insane time at BBQ competitions. But 10am on Sunday of the American Royal is worse. People are fried no matter how they did the day before. Sometimes what we say and what we hear are both affected. Hopefully, this is cleared up. Knowing that Sterling and Johnny had just spent 72 hours in a parking lot cooking, I'd probably give them the benefit of the doubt even if I felt the approach could have been less terse. I'm not saying anyone was more wrong or more right here, but there are multiple perspectives to choose from.

The Royal is unlike any other competition. It is two monsters rolled up into one huge weekend. There are two aspects that make it unique to almost all other contests: size and "the turn". Even I had my "blockers' during key times throughout the weekend. You have so many people to visit with that it can become a distraction to actually cooking. Hopefully, we didn't offend anyone, but I can't say for sure. For the most part, people understand. "The Turn" is the other crazy part of the weekend. For those cooking both the invitational and open, closing out one contest while preparing for the next is a major challenge. To focus when you are dog tired can be a big challenge. However, "The Turn" is a significant part of the fun. There are other back to back contests out there, but none where you have 500 teams on the second day working for one of the biggest prizes in BBQ.

I love the Royal, but am glad it only comes once a year.

I HATE the back nine at the Royal! :shock:

[Bigmista]

Same here brother...there's always a flipside to every story...btw...what are you and Sterling doing in a couple of weeks? Rhana and I can use a good runner and blocker for the Jack...lol!

Ya know...what may be innocent pic snapping by fans at comps can also be mistaken for shigging by the comp team...especially when zoom lenses during turn ins are noticed...good on ya Sterling for having Johnny's back!

Hmmm...wonder if Mrs. Mista would let me go?

[Bigmista]

Man, I almost don't want to ask this question, but is it OK for you to know "what bottle Johnny was holding" but not OK for the OP to?

Yup if you took his class and he arranged for you to be placed next to him on the lot.

[Big Poppa]

Man, I almost don't want to ask this question, but is it OK for you to know "what bottle Johnny was holding" but not OK for the OP to?

I am ok in that I produce Johnny's classes....Johnny cooks with us and he is a dear friend...Thats how we got the killer location that we didnt deserve! Rod Gray and Johnny pulled some strings

[FatBoyz]

Ok here is my take... johnny is a cool guy. I was messing with him at Shannan last year and u guys know how I can be. He was nice and even dined a shirt for me. We all know people are going to come up and want to talk take pics and things like that. That is our version of people in the standard waving to disrupt. The fowl shot... this guy said sorry and misunderstandings happen... this could have been worce .

[JD McGee]

Hmmm...wonder if Mrs. Mista would let me go?

Bring Phyllis with you Neil...NO ONE messes with her! Especially the LA press corps...lol! :twisted:

[brewerjamie15]

never been to a comp, but if any of you decide you want personal security, I can get a hold of some loaded bratwurst. I'll patrol your site in full camo face paint and cowboy boots. Nothing else. Maybe a bayonette in my mouth.
I can guarantee nobody will bother you or go anywhere near your site.

Seriously though, having never been to a competition do they allow the public to view the teams? Are there segregated areas where teams can chill w/o public talking to them?
I'd kind of think that judges should not be allowed in the cook area on turn in days, but like I said- never been to a comp so I have little idea.

[Big Poppa]

Jamie just send the brats and we will be cool.

I think that when in doubt at a contest....wave. Especially during prep and turn ins....
Cooking four meats doesnt seem like a big deal.....things are never what the seem1

[FatBoyz]

if someone can set up that thay can get there box on a certan table than thay should be robbing banks instead that would be easyer...

[Big Poppa]

Im with you...wheres the brats?

[YankeeBBQ]

Lucky thing Johnny wasn't using the Hells Angels for security this year :shocked:

[ique]

I HATE the back nine at the Royal! :shock:

Thats the best part!

[Jorge]

Lucky thing Johnny wasn't using the Hells Angels for security this year :shocked:

I was drinking, er cooking with Andy.:redface:

[Big Poppa]

George there were long pauses in between your words saturday night....now i get it!

[Divemaster]

never been to a comp, but if any of you decide you want personal security, I can get a hold of some loaded bratwurst. I'll patrol your site in full camo face paint and cowboy boots. Nothing else. Maybe a bayonette in my mouth.
I can guarantee nobody will bother you or go anywhere near your site.

Seriously though, having never been to a competition do they allow the public to view the teams? Are there segregated areas where teams can chill w/o public talking to them?
I'd kind of think that judges should not be allowed in the cook area on turn in days, but like I said- never been to a comp so I have little idea.

You could always come on down to Lambs Farm and see what it's like... I understand that there are over 50+ teams this year...

You could even work security for us if you put some pants on...

[Plowboy]

Thats the best part!

Agreed! I tend to cook better the second day because the pressure is off. I'm tired, so I don't overthink things. I'm starting to enjoy the last day the most.

[Plowboy]

Jamie just send the brats and we will be cool.

I think that when in doubt at a contest....wave. Especially during prep and turn ins....
Cooking four meats doesnt seem like a big deal.....things are never what the seem1

You cook?

[JD McGee]

You cook?
He has to...those Hell's Angel folks can pack it away...food that is...amongst other things too I'm sure...

[Scottie]

I was drinking, er cooking with Andy.:redface:




Damn. You Air Force guys are bad ass.... :twisted:

[Plowboy]

I was drinking, er cooking with Andy.:redface:

That would explain the scores. :heh:


Damn. You Air Force guys are bad ass.... :twisted:

El Jefe 2012 - MFBOD! :drama:

[Jorge]

Damn. You Air Force guys are bad ass.... :twisted:

Why don't you get on the road so your girls can go see Mike and Beth and eat some good ribs:-P:evil::becky:

[Big Poppa]

hahahaha Yeah I cook.

[Plowboy]

hahahaha Yeah I cook.


I thought that was you on episode 3 of Cupcake Wars. :becky:

[rookiedad]

i know that this is over but i've been thinking about it for a day and had something to add. please don't take it like i am trying to re-flame this whole thing as i respect the mutual agreement of the original participants.
*begin rant*
This is AMERICA! no one can tell you what and what not to do unless it's against the law, and if Mr.Trigg wanted to keep it a secret i think the burden of doing that should fall on him. he could take it inside. also, remember that when Michael Jordan slam dunks he does not ask anyone to advert their eyes, and no one else asks for him. the difficulty is in the execution as i'm sure Mr. Trigg would agree. this is a sport and it is becomming a spectator sport. spectators are good for this sport. lets treat them nice even if the do make things rough at times.
*rant over*
thank you.

[Scottie]

Why don't you get on the road so your girls can go see Mike and Beth and eat some good ribs:-P:evil::becky:



I guess i need to start paying attention to what he is saying in the comp class...

[boogiesnap]

i know that this is over but i've been thinking about it for a day and had something to add. please don't take it like i am trying to re-flame this whole thing as i respect the mutual agreement of the original participants.
*begin rant*
This is AMERICA! no one can tell you what and what not to do unless it's against the law, and if Mr.Trigg wanted to keep it a secret i think the burden of doing that should fall on him. he could take it inside. also, remember that when Michael Jordan slam dunks he does not ask anyone to advert their eyes, and no one else asks for him. the difficulty is in the execution as i'm sure Mr. Trigg would agree. this is a sport and it is becomming a spectator sport. spectators are good for this sport. lets treat them nice even if the do make things rough at times.
*rant over*
thank you.

this is not a sport.

bill belichick will not sell his playbook for $750. NTTAWWT. nor can you learn how to dunk like MJ, no matter how many times you watch or try...but cooking, yeah it can be done.

it's entertainment.

for some, it's business.

[Big Poppa]

If Johnny wanted everybody to see what he was doing we would turn the cooker around. The question was etiquette....not the constitution.

[rookiedad]

this is not a sport.

bill belichick will not sell his playbook for $750. NTTAWWT. nor can you learn how to dunk like MJ, no matter how many times you watch or try...but cooking, yeah it can be done.

it's entertainment.

for some, it's business.

i'm not so sure you want to be using belichick as an example, besides play books have covers just like recipe books... plays and cooking... thats a choice.
even though this exchange is probably keeping this going longer than it needs to be, i feel strongly, not only about this event, but ones similar to this, but that might be for a different thread... with all due respect! :-D

[Big Poppa]

I dont beleive that anyone who wasnt there really knows enough to feel strongly one way or the other.... I do know that the original poster and I are fine.....

[boogiesnap]

i'm not so sure you want to be using belichick as an example, besides play books have covers just like recipe books... plays and cooking... thats a choice.
even though this exchange is probably keeping this going longer than it needs to be, i feel strongly, not only about this event, but ones similar to this, but that might be for a different thread... with all due respect! :-D

agreed. and the more i think about it, the argument that it is actually a sport has certainly got some merit. but that's for another place and time.

glad to hear all worked out well. :thumb:

[ThomEmery]

This seems kinda done
glad folks are civilized well sorta ;0)