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View Full Version : Thinking about sponsoring a comp. need thoughts


Smokin' Hicks
09-11-2011, 04:57 PM
i am thinking of sponsoring a comp.....it will be judged by CBJ's but the CBJ's will also be certified executive chefs and/or master chefs.....do you think this would turn teams off or attract more teams? seems to me if you have judges with educated pallets the judging would be alot more sensible across the board.....thoughts?

motoeric
09-11-2011, 07:28 PM
It wouldn't make a difference to me at all.

BTW, I believe that you are way off about chef's providing better judging. From what I've seen and from what I've heard from others, chef's are often much more critical than non-chef's.

Eric

carlyle
09-11-2011, 07:49 PM
I agree with motoeric in regards to quality of judging. It is one of those ideas that sound nice in theory. Would not want this at our contest.

Smokin' Hicks
09-11-2011, 08:19 PM
critical comments from highly educated pallets is what you want isn't it? would you rather hear your food is good from a certified chef or master judge or by a couple of judges who judge BBQ once or twice a year...its not the critical i mind its the lack of consistency that sucks, and a educated pallet, a professional chef, would help with that consistency...thats kinda elementary thinking to me...most people i have found that don't want this is because they don't want that educated pallet to be to hard on their food and that is just weak reasoning...everyone says this is suppose to be the Professional level of BBQ cooking and not the backyard level so why not let professionals judge the food, it may be intimidating to some but it the way to get better

Balls Casten
09-11-2011, 08:53 PM
I wouldn’t want another/different set of judges to have to figure out. I don’t really care who it is. But I do what some semblance of a stationary target.

If “educated” judges is what you’d like to see then educate the judges we have.
Just a thought.

motoeric
09-11-2011, 08:54 PM
If you're chefs are experienced CBJ's who have judged a number of events prior to this, then I would concede the point. If not, I have never seen any evidence that a chef is more conversant with the flavor profiles of BBQ than experienced BBQ judges.

In addition, the chef's that I have dealt with that have judged have been considerably out of the norm in scoring. They consistently score lower than the rest of the table.

But to reiterate, it wouldn't influence my decision on whether or not to compete at all.

Eric

Hub
09-12-2011, 06:56 AM
What makes you think that a "certified" chef (not sure what that is but I understand your intention) would make a better judge? If I were cooking in your contest I'd presume this was eyewash. Judges need to be educated concerning standards and rules. After that, there will be subjectivity and I doubt if chefs have any less of it than the general population.

tmcmaster
09-12-2011, 08:39 AM
I would be totally into this. I think that having someone judge your entrys that tastes food for a living would be able to offer better, more direct and reasoned comments than the average CBJ, who has a life and career outside of food.

Smokin' Hicks
09-12-2011, 09:38 AM
I would be totally into this. I think that having someone judge your entrys that tastes food for a living would be able to offer better, more direct and reasoned comments than the average CBJ, who has a life and career outside of food.


AMEN.....what more do i need to say? you hit the nail right on the head

Lake Dogs
09-12-2011, 09:40 AM
Finding 50 seasoned CBJ's (of any sanctioning body) who also work professionally in the food industry is going to be pretty tough, isn't it?

Smokin' Hicks
09-12-2011, 09:52 AM
well.....i can definitely get the chefs and master chefs....that is not the issue...we just got to get them certified which should not be much of a problem....i have 38 for sure already and am making arrangements to have a judging class and have them all certified....then there will be no excuses to the legitimacy of the comp. ......ball is rolling

Three porks
09-12-2011, 10:01 AM
I'd rather see a comp with every cbj in attendance having at least cooked one comp.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Lake Dogs
09-12-2011, 10:02 AM
well.....i can definitely get the chefs and master chefs....that is not the issue...we just got to get them certified which should not be much of a problem....i have 38 for sure already and am making arrangements to have a judging class and have them all certified....then there will be no excuses to the legitimacy of the comp. ......ball is rolling

Seriously, best of luck with it. I for one would enjoy the competition where all CBJ's were chefs and master chefs. I think the better competitors not only appreciate critical judging, they should expect it. No one wants to be glad handed a 9 for presenting mediocre Q. It would be interesting to see how the competition (particularly the judges) do a few years from now, after they've judged 10 or 20 competitions.

E Mellow
09-12-2011, 10:11 AM
I like this idea. I always feel that cooks truely appreciate all of the hard work that goes into the cooking process.

Smokin' Hicks
09-12-2011, 11:05 AM
What makes you think that a "certified" chef (not sure what that is but I understand your intention) would make a better judge? If I were cooking in your contest I'd presume this was eyewash. Judges need to be educated concerning standards and rules. After that, there will be subjectivity and I doubt if chefs have any less of it than the general population.
they taste and prepare food for a living...they have a trained pallet...and really, how in the hell could it be worse than the judging system now? worth a shot IMOP

CMALANGA
09-12-2011, 11:28 AM
I honestly could care less either way. If it's convenient in location, I have the money, and the timing is right I'm willing to compete. I pretty much assume none of the judges will like what I cooked. Keeps me from loosing my mind later when I get 5s mixed in with 8s and get comments like the chicken was raw when it was the smoke coloration from the smoke reacting with the meat. I'm sorry I blacked out for second...doen't matter either way.

Rich Parker
09-12-2011, 11:52 AM
Have you ever seen Hell's Kitchen? My favorite challenge is when they blind fold the chefs and ask them to identify the food that Ramsey has them taste. It is amazing how wrong these chefs are at identifying the food.

I understand you think this will make the scores more consistent but even trained chefs are going to be inconsistent between themselves on taste and appearance which i think are the two most subjective criteria's.

Good luck, I look forward to hearing the results.

timzcardz
09-12-2011, 12:26 PM
critical comments from highly educated pallets is what you want isn't it? would you rather hear your food is good from a certified chef or master judge or by a couple of judges who judge BBQ once or twice a year...its not the critical i mind its the lack of consistency that sucks, and a educated pallet, a professional chef, would help with that consistency...thats kinda elementary thinking to me...most people i have found that don't want this is because they don't want that educated pallet to be to hard on their food and that is just weak reasoning...everyone says this is suppose to be the Professional level of BBQ cooking and not the backyard level so why not let professionals judge the food, it may be intimidating to some but it the way to get better

well.....i can definitely get the chefs and master chefs....that is not the issue...we just got to get them certified which should not be much of a problem....i have 38 for sure already and am making arrangements to have a judging class and have them all certified....then there will be no excuses to the legitimacy of the comp. ......ball is rolling

Interstingly nowhere do you say that they are BBQ chefs, and the fact that you are arranging for a judging class indicates that they aren't BBQ judges either.

I would much rather have experienced BBQ judges than chefs whose expertise in not BBQ.

I can't help but think about the executive chef (Paul Peterson?) that was on BBQ Pitmasters and couldn't figure out how to succesfully cook competition BBQ.

True professionals know their area(s) of expertise, practice within it, and know that expertise doesn't necessarily carry over to other areas.

Three porks
09-12-2011, 12:32 PM
Interstingly nowhere do you say that they are BBQ chefs, and the fact that you are arranging for a judging class indicates that they aren't BBQ judges either.

I would much rather have experienced BBQ judges than chefs whose expertise in not BBQ.

I can't help but think about the executive chef (Paul Peterson?) that was on BBQ Pitmasters and couldn't figure out how to succesfully cook competition BBQ.

True professionals know their area(s) of expertise, practice within it, and know that expertise doesn't necessarily carry over to other areas.

Very well said!!!!!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Matt_A
09-12-2011, 12:40 PM
I know many professional chefs, many are EXCELLENT in their area of expertise, some are chef in title only and can't cook Kraft Macaroni & Cheese. I have worked as a professional chef and this doesn't by default qualify you to be a BBQ judge. Even among acknowledged masters you get different opinions about any single dish. Just watch Chopped a few times. Zakarian will say "I really couldn't get past the texture of your polenta." Conant says, "The texture of the polenta was excellent." :crazy: Honestly, I don't think that a stable of trained chefs will give any more consistent results than what we already get at a competition, especially if a third of them will be judging for the first time.

motoeric
09-12-2011, 12:51 PM
I've run a few comps and helped with the running of others. I've had numerous discussions w/ chef's who had never competed before letting me know how they were going to kick butt (no pun intended) because they were a pro.

How many placed? None.

If you are concerned about the judging and have the option of going by your own rules (ie, you're not hampered by the restrictions of a sanctioning body), you may want to consider getting the BEST judges you can and if you can't get enough to judge, give those that you have more entries. Instead of judging 6 entries, have them judge 8 (for example).

Eric

CivilWarBBQ
09-13-2011, 02:03 AM
I've judged beside CIA Chefexecs in their pressed white coats. They were about the same as your run-of-the-mill CBJ: some were pretty good, others were not. There was an above-average amount of pretentiousness though - kinda like doctors.

Smokin' Hicks
09-13-2011, 07:08 AM
I've judged beside CIA Chefexecs in their pressed white coats. They were about the same as your run-of-the-mill CBJ: some were pretty good, others were not. There was an above-average amount of pretentiousness though - kinda like doctors.

com on, really? pretentiousness? really? i guess you think all people who are black steal things also or carry a gun....give me a break bro......been a chef for a long time and kinda get sick of hearing that.....everone thinks they can cook and when someone with a "pressed white jacket" and a "pretentiousness" attitude people get intimidated by what they do for a living and start throwing out things like this guy

Smokin' Hicks
09-13-2011, 07:11 AM
I know many professional chefs, many are EXCELLENT in their area of expertise, some are chef in title only and can't cook Kraft Macaroni & Cheese. I have worked as a professional chef and this doesn't by default qualify you to be a BBQ judge. Even among acknowledged masters you get different opinions about any single dish. Just watch Chopped a few times. Zakarian will say "I really couldn't get past the texture of your polenta." Conant says, "The texture of the polenta was excellent." :crazy: Honestly, I don't think that a stable of trained chefs will give any more consistent results than what we already get at a competition, especially if a third of them will be judging for the first time.

well a mark of a good chef is not having just one single area of "expertise".....so i don't know who you are talking to or what kind of "professional" chefs you know....a hint: just cause you are a cook at bob and joe's roadkill restaurant that does not make you a chef

jaxbbq
09-13-2011, 07:19 AM
IMNSHO - certified judge or chef it all boils down to what the person judging likes. A trained/educated pallet mat be able to tell if you used Califoria or Hungarian sweet paprika. As you travel across the country tastes change. NC BBQ is not Kansas BBQ. etc......etc.....Judging is subjective by definition.

Smokin' Hicks
09-13-2011, 07:26 AM
and that is part of the problem i think, the subjectivity of the judging needs to be removed.....i dont care what the judge personally likes....what if what he likes is total crap and not even close to how that piece of meat should be cooked? they need to be showed the proper way and result when the meat is cooked properly....if you are not shown that how can you possibly judge something without just going off of your personal opinion of it....its like the restaurant owner coming to the chef and saying i love veal picatta i want it on the menu still the chef says we have sold one order in 2 years.....it does not matter what the owner personally likes he is not buying the food the customer is and it matters what they want

Rich Parker
09-13-2011, 11:34 AM
and that is part of the problem i think, the subjectivity of the judging needs to be removed.....i dont care what the judge personally likes....what if what he likes is total crap and not even close to how that piece of meat should be cooked? they need to be showed the proper way and result when the meat is cooked properly....if you are not shown that how can you possibly judge something without just going off of your personal opinion of it....its like the restaurant owner coming to the chef and saying i love veal picatta i want it on the menu still the chef says we have sold one order in 2 years.....it does not matter what the owner personally likes he is not buying the food the customer is and it matters what they want

How can you remove the subjectivity out of the appearance and taste categories?

timzcardz
09-13-2011, 11:40 AM
com on, really? pretentiousness? really? i guess you think all people who are black steal things also or carry a gun....give me a break bro......been a chef for a long time and kinda get sick of hearing that.....everone thinks they can cook and when someone with a "pressed white jacket" and a "pretentiousness" attitude people get intimidated by what they do for a living and start throwing out things like this guy

Then have you considered not being so pretentious? :wink:

motoeric
09-13-2011, 11:52 AM
com on, really? pretentiousness? really? i guess you think all people who are black steal things also or carry a gun....give me a break bro......been a chef for a long time and kinda get sick of hearing that.....everone thinks they can cook and when someone with a "pressed white jacket" and a "pretentiousness" attitude people get intimidated by what they do for a living and start throwing out things like this guy

I'm finding it very difficult to avoid venturing into the area of personal invective here. I'll just say that you were WAY out line. CivilWarBBQ was making a qualified statement based on personal experience and you are equating that to racism, which is exactly the opposite.

Apologies are due.

Eric

Jorge
09-13-2011, 12:06 PM
com on, really? pretentiousness? really? i guess you think all people who are black steal things also or carry a gun....give me a break bro......been a chef for a long time and kinda get sick of hearing that.....everone thinks they can cook and when someone with a "pressed white jacket" and a "pretentiousness" attitude people get intimidated by what they do for a living and start throwing out things like this guy

Is Smokin' Hicks your team name?

Lake Dogs
09-13-2011, 12:15 PM
How can you remove the subjectivity out of the appearance and taste categories?

Yep. See, beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty being how appetizing it is (or isn't) and in what tastes wonderful.

The sanctioning bodies do pretty good at teaching their standard for tenderness and teach how to tell.

But, appearance? I promise, what's appetizing to you may or may not be appetizing to me. For that matter, lets talk specifically about barbecue. I'll remove myself from the competition arena for just one moment and talk about what comes across a table at a restaurant and whether it's appetizing or not, to me.

Money muscles. To me, if you're not careful, they either look like a penis or something the dog leaves in the back yard. To me, it doesn't matter how pretty and shiny the bark is, if it invokes an image of something inedible, it's NOT appetizing. Dr. BBQ even made a presentation one time that intentionally formed the shape of the full male anatomy. He got all 9's in appearance. To me, I'm just not salivating at the sight of a ****. It's just not me. If that came across the table at a restaurant, I'd send it back and order a pizza. Sorry, not interested; not appetizing at all. Obviously others thought differently. Some get really turned on and salivating when shiny red balls come across the table. To me it invokes images of things that aren't food, and honestly as such they're not appetizing. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I'm not wrong either.

You may like the colors and simplicity of a presentation of the nuveau food with minimalistic food, etc. Whereas I salivate more for a big helping of brisket, that looks like brisket. You're not wrong, but neither am I.

My point is this; it's subjective. And, that's part of the fun that is barbecue competitions.

deepsouth
09-13-2011, 01:49 PM
Is Smokin' Hicks your team name?


watch it OP. this is probably an ambush.

bover
09-13-2011, 02:29 PM
I'd think a contest that has 100% Master CBJs with years of experience in the BBQ world would end up with more consistent judging than a contest that is 100% rookie CBJs with minimal experience in competition BBQ.

If this were a non-sanctioned backyard contest where the judges and cooks were able to interact and discuss the finer points of each entry, I think it would be a fantastic opportunity for the cooks to possibly pick up some pointers on flavor profiles and such. In a standard KCBS setting however, I just don't see the point.

Jeff_in_KC
09-13-2011, 02:33 PM
I have another point of view... I wouldn't cook your contest simply based upon your attitude here. You asked for opinions and when you got them, you blessed the ones who agreed with you and verbally attacked the ones who didn't. Good luck with your event. You're going to need it.

bignburlyman
09-13-2011, 04:39 PM
com on, really? pretentiousness? really? i guess you think all people who are black steal things also or carry a gun....give me a break bro......been a chef for a long time and kinda get sick of hearing that.....everone thinks they can cook and when someone with a "pressed white jacket" and a "pretentiousness" attitude people get intimidated by what they do for a living and start throwing out things like this guy

I'm finding it very difficult to avoid venturing into the area of personal invective here. I'll just say that you were WAY out line. CivilWarBBQ was making a qualified statement based on personal experience and you are equating that to racism, which is exactly the opposite.

Apologies are due.

Eric

When I saw the first quoted statement by SmokinHicks, my jaw dropped and I couldn't believe what was said. i wasn't sure I even wanted to get involved in this discussion, but feel that it was quite out of line. Thank you Eric for standing up.

QueNivorous
09-13-2011, 07:44 PM
We would be unimpressed with chefs as judges. Most chefs don't understand BBQ and many (not all) are pains in the arse. Just use regular KCBS or other certified judges. Why do anything more complicated?

big brother smoke
09-13-2011, 08:01 PM
com on, really? pretentiousness? really? i guess you think all people who are black steal things also or carry a gun....give me a break bro......been a chef for a long time and kinda get sick of hearing that.....everone thinks they can cook and when someone with a "pressed white jacket" and a "pretentiousness" attitude people get intimidated by what they do for a living and start throwing out things like this guy

Hey leave me out of this :becky:

The Cosmic Pig
09-13-2011, 08:41 PM
I've judged beside CIA Chefexecs in their pressed white coats. They were about the same as your run-of-the-mill CBJ: some were pretty good, others were not. There was an above-average amount of pretentiousness though - kinda like doctors.

I cooked beside a chef from a very well known local restaurant here who was doing his first BBQ competition. I'm not sure what he "dolloped" on top of his BBQ, or what kind of flower he topped it off with, but I do know it was funny when he couldn't figure out why he came in DAL! :shock: He was really a nice guy - and probably an excellent cook within his own element - but I'm quite sure he didn't understand the genre. I believe it would be the same with "trained pallets;" they'd be looking for something that wasn't supposed to be there in the first place, or at least victims of their own subjectivities - just like every other BBQ judge! :tsk:

Matt_A
09-13-2011, 09:52 PM
well a mark of a good chef is not having just one single area of "expertise".....so i don't know who you are talking to or what kind of "professional" chefs you know....a hint: just cause you are a cook at bob and joe's roadkill restaurant that does not make you a chef

Toucy, touchy.... running others down is often a sign of deep seated insecurity. :crazy: Good luck with your comp. With an attitude like that, it'll likely be you one and only.