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Tack
09-10-2011, 07:32 PM
I am the only one who sees a problem with receiving a comment cars from a judge that say please inject or adjust cooking temp??

Tack
09-10-2011, 07:33 PM
make that comment cards not cars LOL

tmcmaster
09-10-2011, 07:36 PM
I think such a thing from a judge is offensive.

PimpSmoke
09-10-2011, 07:36 PM
Would you rather they just gave you a crap score with no card?

tmcmaster
09-10-2011, 07:47 PM
Would you rather they just gave you a crap score with no card?

No, but I would rather not have a judge tell me how to cook. If it's rubbery, tell me. If it's dry or under-done, tell me. I'll learn from it and make adjustments...
If a judge tells me I need to inject, that's offensive.:mad2:

Tack
09-10-2011, 07:47 PM
no give me the comment card but don't try to insturct me as to how to cook. Yhe entry was a poor one but it was MY fault not the cooking style or seasoning. I failed to put it on in time

Tack
09-10-2011, 07:49 PM
If ya don't like the entry thats fine just tell me why. If ya want to teach me to cook find me and mentor me.

PimpSmoke
09-10-2011, 07:56 PM
Eh, there's gotta be a middle ground. I got a card that on brisket that said "too salty" and that was it. I would have been thrilled if it had said what was too salty, ends, slices, au jus, bark??

Tack
09-10-2011, 08:08 PM
speaking of salt got another one that said my pork entry needed salt. as you can tell it was a BAD day at the judges table for me

Tack
09-10-2011, 08:10 PM
I got one on my ribs that saud they were dry too. Now that was TOTAL BS and I got witnesses to that

PimpSmoke
09-10-2011, 08:15 PM
Those do sound like crappy cards but, at least there is an attempt. I think that a lot of judges may think that they are being helpful instead of just slinging sanitized comments. I guess what I'm saying is, as a cook I would rather see a little more, non offensive descriptive cards than no comment at all.

If something is off tell me, just don't tell me how to cook, I agree with that. I just would hate to see the usefulness of the cards disappear because they are being used other than intended.

Smokin Mike
09-10-2011, 08:16 PM
atleast you get comment cards,,,,,,

PimpSmoke
09-10-2011, 08:17 PM
I got one on my ribs that saud they were dry too. Now that was TOTAL BS and I got witnesses to that

I'm not a CBJ and don't have to be to see that you could be looking for fire where there is no smoke. There are so many variables that nothing short of climbing into that judges mouth when they take the bite can guarantee anything.

Tack
09-10-2011, 08:22 PM
Hey Pimp see the quote at the bottm of my messages??? That was on a comment card last year at the same comp. See the pattern?

Tack
09-10-2011, 08:25 PM
Seems the judges are watching a few TV shows and are trying to impress people. Just tell me why ya didn't like it and I'll decide what if any adjustments need to be made. Clearly comment cards are good if used for the intended purpose. I just think that this judge went beyond acceptable limits for the card.

PimpSmoke
09-10-2011, 08:31 PM
Seems the judges are watching a few TV shows and are trying to impress people. Just tell me why ya didn't like it and I'll decide what if any adjustments need to be made. Clearly comment cards are good if used for the intended purpose. I just think that this judge went beyond acceptable limits for the card.

I can agree with that. I know how you feel to an extent. I got fived last weekend by one judge and I was quite upset. I had to take a breath, step back and remember the one thing we all know; Unless you're one of the top ten teams in consistently winning, it's a big crap shoot every time you close that box.

the pit crew
09-10-2011, 09:59 PM
I am a cook and a CBJ, I try to fill out a constructive card when I judge. For instance I will put meat was dry but flavor was good, meat was overcooked and had a mushy consistency, Sauce overpowered the meat, Bland flavor or something that will give the cook a clue to help them. I do not judge based on a flavor profile I do not like, for instance I do not like a lot of chipolte, or mustard, but I do NOT discount something because I do not like it. I HATE white sauce on chicken but I do realize that it can still me moist, tender and the appearance can be nice so I judge based as if all of the chicken had a white sauce would this be the best.

Matt_A
09-10-2011, 11:08 PM
What was the % of CBJ? It might have been like Bedford, 100% CBJ, but 85% were first time judges. All in all, at Bedford they did an outstanding job even though they were pretty new to the game.

Boshizzle
09-10-2011, 11:18 PM
I'm with you. Please don't get me started on this subject. I see judges all the time that try to prescribe a solution to a perceived BBQ problem rather than just tell the cook what the problem is. It's a pet peeve of mine, actually, and I even discussed it at length with the KCBS rep at the comp I judged today.

Judges should not be telling cooks how to cook. They can give feedback to the cooks to let them know what they didn't like but they have no business offering cooking suggestions.

Mooner
09-10-2011, 11:22 PM
I would rather have a comment card honestly. I mean, you are cooking for the judges so I would take their input unless it's just assenine crazy.

INmitch
09-11-2011, 12:10 AM
I flipped through my score sheet this weekend for a comment card....but none. CK is one of my stonger things, we thought it was spot on but 2 of the 6 judges didn't with one giving an 855 and another giving a 6 on taste. I've been in this long enough that I just shrug n move on but with the other 4 giving 8s & 9s.......TELL ME want you didn't like!!!!:evil:

Done with my rant.:icon_blush:

tmcmaster
09-11-2011, 07:03 AM
I am a cook and a CBJ, I try to fill out a constructive card when I judge. For instance I will put meat was dry but flavor was good, meat was overcooked and had a mushy consistency, Sauce overpowered the meat, Bland flavor or something that will give the cook a clue to help them. I do not judge based on a flavor profile I do not like, for instance I do not like a lot of chipolte, or mustard, but I do NOT discount something because I do not like it. I HATE white sauce on chicken but I do realize that it can still me moist, tender and the appearance can be nice so I judge based as if all of the chicken had a white sauce would this be the best.
And those are fantastic comments! They offer a constructive comment, but do not attempt to tell the cook HOW to cook. I know in my case, that was the entire crux of my disgust with the comment I got at Que For The Troops.

MilitantSquatter
09-11-2011, 07:26 AM
maybe KCBS should consider pre-set comments for a judge to check off which if any are applicable (positive or negative)

tmcmaster
09-11-2011, 07:36 AM
maybe KCBS should consider pre-set comments for a judge to check off which if any are applicable (positive or negative)
Or actually TRAINING judges, instead of a CBJ course that is more about writing a check to KCBS than learning anything...

CBQ
09-11-2011, 08:13 AM
Or actually TRAINING judges, instead of a CBJ course that is more about writing a check to KCBS than learning anything...

My CBJ course was pretty good. A lot of effort was put in to not only explaining judging, but cooking many samples (good and bad) to give people some experience. Of course once they leave the class, anything goes apparently :heh:

tmcmaster
09-11-2011, 09:28 AM
My CBJ course was pretty good. A lot of effort was put in to not only explaining judging, but cooking many samples (good and bad) to give people some experience. Of course once they leave the class, anything goes apparently :heh:
Mine (and several others I have spoken to on this subject) was more about garnishes and their legality and learning the oath. There was very little about what is bad or good about the meat. My trainer actually said he used the pull test for brisket, and looked for a smoke ring... I mean, WTF?!?!:doh:

Coz
09-11-2011, 10:50 AM
One of our friends came back from judging a contest and told us that one of the judges told her that she doesnt write less then a 6 so she doesnt have o fill out a comment card. On the average day that may make a difference but most likely not BUT what about the bad weather contests where it could make all the difference ?
Pimp theres a team in Mi that is called Smokin Aces Crapshoot BBQ and his logo says it all. Every contest is a crapshoot.

PimpSmoke
09-11-2011, 11:03 AM
One of our friends came back from judging a contest and told us that one of the judges told her that she doesnt write less then a 6 so she doesnt have o fill out a comment card. On the average day that may make a difference but most likely not BUT what about the bad weather contests where it could make all the difference ?
Pimp theres a team in Mi that is called Smokin Aces Crapshoot BBQ and his logo says it all. Every contest is a crapshoot.

Yeah, I cooked next to them in Armada. I saw the trailer and laughed my butt off, because it was spot on!

Hub
09-12-2011, 07:06 AM
Before you condemn a judge for "telling you how to cook" consider that many judges are cooks, too. The space on the card is small. When I make a comment I make it as clear as possible and suggest a solution when I know it will apply. I don't have room or time to state my credentials. I'm not asking the cook to agree with me. The comment card is a suggestion, not an order, and never intended to imply I'm a better cook. It is submitted in a spirit of sharing thoughts and ideas for the improvement of barbeque in general.

Nothing will ever stop the judge bashing that goes on here. The core problem is "scapgoating" -- targeting everyone for the less than ideal actions of a few. Like judging itself, comment cards will never be perfect, either.

bbq.tom
09-12-2011, 08:19 AM
Before you condemn a judge for "telling you how to cook" consider that many judges are cooks, too. The space on the card is small. When I make a comment I make it as clear as possible and suggest a solution when I know it will apply. I don't have room or time to state my credentials. I'm not asking the cook to agree with me. The comment card is a suggestion, not an order, and never intended to imply I'm a better cook. It is submitted in a spirit of sharing thoughts and ideas for the improvement of barbeque in general.

Nothing will ever stop the judge bashing that goes on here. The core problem is "scapgoating" -- targeting everyone for the less than ideal actions of a few. Like judging itself, comment cards will never be perfect, either.

I totally agree! As both a cook and judge, I try to provide comments on EVERYTHING below an 8; however, it is really difficult to properly fill out a comment card in detail with the Table Captain standing over you waiting on you to finish so that they can turn in the score cards (with comment cards) and prepare for the next category. USUALLY there isn't enough time between categories to allow for more than one comment card even if I have more than one 7 (which fortunately is rare). Cooks may not realize, but if your table is the last to get the entry then you don't have but about 10-15 minutes to judge it. I hate to say it, but maybe the turn-in times need to be 45 minutes apart instead of 30.

I also TOTALLY agree that a judge should NOT try to tell a team how to cook, but should just comment on what they judged - appearance, taste, and tenderness/texture!

By the way, my KCBS CBJ class a few years ago (and my wife's CBJ class this year) emphasized how to judge the MEAT, what is good and bad, with little emphasis on garnish and the oath!

tmcmaster
09-12-2011, 08:34 AM
I totally agree! As both a cook and judge, I try to provide comments on EVERYTHING below an 8; however, it is really difficult to properly fill out a comment card in detail with the Table Captain standing over you waiting on you to finish so that they can turn in the score cards (with comment cards) and prepare for the next category. USUALLY there isn't enough time between categories to allow for more than one comment card even if I have more than one 7 (which fortunately is rare). Cooks may not realize, but if your table is the last to get the entry then you don't have but about 10-15 minutes to judge it. I hate to say it, but maybe the turn-in times need to be 45 minutes apart instead of 30.

I also TOTALLY agree that a judge should NOT try to tell a team how to cook, but should just comment on what they judged - appearance, taste, and tenderness/texture!

By the way, my KCBS CBJ class a few years ago (and my wife's CBJ class this year) emphasized how to judge the MEAT, what is good and bad, with little emphasis on garnish and the oath!
I know that from my perspective, as a cook and judge, I would NEVER say something to a cook like 'You should inject.' The comments I have had to give were based souly on what I could tell with certainty from the samples. Appearence, taste, Texture. Thats it.

Lake Dogs
09-12-2011, 08:38 AM
In this case, the comment card made no sense. Adjust cooking temp? Up, or down, and why? Inject; why?

Meaning, was it bland? If that's the case, what in the **** does adjusting the cooking temp do? If it was dry, then say it was dry. If it wasn't tender enough and was chewy or tough, just say so. Or, if it was mushy, same thing.

What the **** was he/she saying, other than "I'm a moron".

Basically you had a moron for a judge; sorry.

I

DocStl
09-12-2011, 08:38 AM
My favorite comment card was on chicken last year... TOO JUICY! lol

Lake Dogs
09-12-2011, 08:43 AM
Before you condemn a judge for "telling you how to cook" consider that many judges are cooks, too. The space on the card is small. When I make a comment I make it as clear as possible and suggest a solution when I know it will apply. I don't have room or time to state my credentials. I'm not asking the cook to agree with me. The comment card is a suggestion, not an order, and never intended to imply I'm a better cook. It is submitted in a spirit of sharing thoughts and ideas for the improvement of barbeque in general.

Nothing will ever stop the judge bashing that goes on here. The core problem is "scapgoating" -- targeting everyone for the less than ideal actions of a few. Like judging itself, comment cards will never be perfect, either.

Hub, I'm actually coming to an opinion that most comments on cards could easily be check-box comments. For example, on tenderness, there's really only about 5 things it could be: tough, chewy, gristle, mushy, crunchy.
Same for taste, but probably 8 or 10 things: too salty, too sweet, too hot/spicy, bland, etc.

Sledneck
09-12-2011, 08:46 AM
Best one I ever got was on pork





"Pork had tiny bubbles on right side, did not look appealing"

Score 589

Here's the link to my original post on it http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1012307&postcount=38

tmcmaster
09-12-2011, 08:48 AM
Hub, I'm actually coming to an opinion that most comments on cards could easily be check-box comments. For example, on tenderness, there's really only about 5 things it could be: tough, chewy, gristle, mushy, crunchy.
Same for taste, but probably 8 or 10 things: too salty, too sweet, too hot/spicy, bland, etc.
I think that may not be a bad idea... If it's a 'multiple choice' for comments, more judges might be inclined to actually comment, since they may know that there is an issue with the quality of the meat, but may not be able to fully articulate it... This would give them a way to see a list of things, and say, "Yes! That was it!"

Lake Dogs
09-12-2011, 09:22 AM
Best one I ever got was on pork





"Pork had tiny bubbles on right side, did not look appealing"

Score 589

Here's the link to my original post on it http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1012307&postcount=38


That's kinda the ***** of presentation and appeal, it's REALLY subjective. One person likes nice shiny perfect red balls of chicken, and the next looks at it and doesn't find Christmas ornaments appetizing at all. It's like when Dr BBQ made a penis out of his pork presentation; on that day he got all 9's. Apparently everyone wanted to take a bite of a penis... :eusa_clap I'm of the opinion that he got lucky not to get some 4's... Comments on appearance dont help much, IMHO. Just score it because it's either appetizing to you (the judge), or it isn't, with degrees of is and isn't.

Goddahavit
09-12-2011, 09:28 AM
We actually got 2 comment cards on our ribs there, and they were very helpful. Now if they would just tell me what they hate about my chicken, id stop changing the wrong things and making it worse, lol..

I am never happy to see the cards, but in this case I had a feeling on my ribs and they confirmed it, so I was glad to have the feedback.

I have to agree though, no idea what that judge was trying to say...

tdwalker
09-12-2011, 09:30 AM
So I had a rib earlier this year with an excellent flavor profile (was really, really good). I gave a 9-9-6.

My comment was "Excellent flavor but was undercooked."

Would I have better to comment "too chewy"?

Lake Dogs
09-12-2011, 09:43 AM
So I had a rib earlier this year with an excellent flavor profile (was really, really good). I gave a 9-9-6.

My comment was "Excellent flavor but was undercooked."

Would I have better to comment "too chewy"?

Yes. Too chewy is probably slightly undercooked, but not necessarily. A bad piece of meat will do this too. Too chewy tells them exactly what they need to to know, no more and no less. Actually, saying "undercooked" doesn't say it was too chewy, it could say/imply other things.

The comment card is there to tell them what's wrong, and IMHO I LOVE it and would appreciate it for anything 7 or less (using KCBS scoring), but that's me. However, dont tell me how to correct it. Usually that doesn't tell me what the problem was at all.

ModelMaker
09-12-2011, 09:55 AM
My favorite comment card was on chicken last year... TOO JUICY! lol

What do you find so lol ish about that coment? With the influx of "cupcake" chicken that is "braised" in a pool of melted butter it's not uncommon to take a bite and have a massive amount of buttery flavored goo shoot out of the sample and drench your chin (and shirt).
"TOO JUICY" means you had added more moisture than it should have had in it's natural state.
You want a comment card? Take the info offered.
Ed

Fat Freddy
09-12-2011, 11:25 AM
I am a cook and a judge and really like the idea of a check box comment card rather than just a general comment card. Judges should not be telling how to cook but why they score, and a general checkbox may actually make better judges. At one contest I had a comment of "not enough lettuce" First off I dont use lettuce as a garnish( though I may start now). I was stunned that this comment card was actually given to me and honestly frustrated me. This was a KCBS event and I know garnish helps with appearance but I thought garnish was supposed to be optional?

At a contest I judged, there was not enough table captains so we were specifically told in our instructions to not fill out the comment cards and this was by the KCBS rep, because "there would not be enough time and there is not enough comment cards so lets spend our time elsewhere" That really bothered me and the next Monday I called KCBS and was basically told comment cards are at the discretion of the KCBS rep and the cooks may not get them even if they were filled out. This was in late May.

tmcmaster
09-12-2011, 01:49 PM
I am a cook and a judge and really like the idea of a check box comment card rather than just a general comment card. Judges should not be telling how to cook but why they score, and a general checkbox may actually make better judges. At one contest I had a comment of "not enough lettuce" First off I dont use lettuce as a garnish( though I may start now). I was stunned that this comment card was actually given to me and honestly frustrated me. This was a KCBS event and I know garnish helps with appearance but I thought garnish was supposed to be optional?

At a contest I judged, there was not enough table captains so we were specifically told in our instructions to not fill out the comment cards and this was by the KCBS rep, because "there would not be enough time and there is not enough comment cards so lets spend our time elsewhere" That really bothered me and the next Monday I called KCBS and was basically told comment cards are at the discretion of the KCBS rep and the cooks may not get them even if they were filled out. This was in late May.

That is unbelievable. KCBS is really dropping the ball with their judging criteria. But, I guess, as long as people still watch reality TV and pay money to be a judge, why would they bother or care about what helps the cooks?:mad2:

Tack
09-12-2011, 07:37 PM
I got in contact with a KCBS board member today. I am sending a copy of the comment card to them and we are goingt to see what the outcome is. I agree with the check mark style of comments. Telling me to "Please inject". thats a direct quote, is unwarrented and would not have changed the outcome since the problem was totally MY fault. I had a much larger brisket and failed to adjust my cooking time.

TheJackal
09-12-2011, 07:59 PM
Best one I ever got was on pork





"Pork had tiny bubbles on right side, did not look appealing"

Score 589

Here's the link to my original post on it http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1012307&postcount=38

We got a 699 that counted for our 10th place brisket this weekend. Of the other appearance scores, four were 8 or 9 and the last was a 7. I kept wishing that judge with the 6 gave a comment card but after reading this thread I think I'm glad he didn't! It must have been something like "I gotta eat that crap? Holy sh*t, this is the best brisket I ever ate!" LOL

BTW, we haven't received a comment card in 2.5 seasons. And when we got one, it was for a good score and the judge told us what he really liked about the entry.

DocStl
09-12-2011, 08:07 PM
What do you find so lol ish about that coment? With the influx of "cupcake" chicken that is "braised" in a pool of melted butter it's not uncommon to take a bite and have a massive amount of buttery flavored goo shoot out of the sample and drench your chin (and shirt).
"TOO JUICY" means you had added more moisture than it should have had in it's natural state.
You want a comment card? Take the info offered.
Ed

I add no extras, was cooked hot and fast... most complain about dry meat, not too juicy... Was funny too us, maybe not to you...

Fat Freddy
09-12-2011, 09:26 PM
I got in contact with a KCBS board member today. I am sending a copy of the comment card to them and we are goingt to see what the outcome is. I agree with the check mark style of comments. Telling me to "Please inject". thats a direct quote, is unwarrented and would not have changed the outcome since the problem was totally MY fault. I had a much larger brisket and failed to adjust my cooking time.


Keep us updated, I would love to hear what a board member says. You might suggest this person reads this posting too. Even though you have the comment card to show it seems that several others are having similar issues. It also seems most of us think the checkbox comment cards are a very good idea.

Gadragonfly
09-13-2011, 12:39 PM
I totally agree! As both a cook and judge, I try to provide comments on EVERYTHING below an 8; however, it is really difficult to properly fill out a comment card in detail with the Table Captain standing over you waiting on you to finish so that they can turn in the score cards (with comment cards) and prepare for the next category.
I see this done frequently - why do you have to turn in a comment card with the score card and hold up the entire process? If I'm turning in a comment card I'll write the required information, Team #, Category, Scores and then give the score card to my TC so that they can move on and my table mates can discuss the entries. As soon as I've finished my comment card - and lets face it, it doesn't take long, there isn't that much room - then I give my comment card to the TC. -Julie

bbq.tom
09-13-2011, 01:30 PM
I see this done frequently - why do you have to turn in a comment card with the score card and hold up the entire process? If I'm turning in a comment card I'll write the required information, Team #, Category, Scores and then give the score card to my TC so that they can move on and my table mates can discuss the entries. As soon as I've finished my comment card - and lets face it, it doesn't take long, there isn't that much room - then I give my comment card to the TC. -Julie

Hey Julie, I sat next to you when I wrote out the comment cards at Greer and Myrtle Beach. We need the score card to enter the scores on the comment cards before we leave the actual comments; therefore it does hold up the process a bit. Especially when there is more than one comment card needed to be left on a particular category. I try to leave a comment card on any entry where I give a 7 or less. I feel it appropriate to let the cooks know why I didn't give their entry an 8 or 9.
Just saying...

SeriousQue
09-13-2011, 05:22 PM
Like most, this is frustrating. How can you get better without a critique? How the heck can we make changes and get better if we have no idea what went wrong. Over the weekend on brisket we scored 999 999 997 966 965 975. Personally we thought it was the best brisket we have ever cooked. How the heck am I as a cook to interpret these scores without a comment card. In a sport that is growing fast, maybe too fast how can people excel with out a critique. Some would say practice, practice, practice - what the hell do I practice, besides making that same mistake over and over again?

Gadragonfly
09-13-2011, 06:26 PM
Tom, you're not following me. Get your comment cards, write the team number and scores on each card then give your score card to the TC. They can then turn in the cards and start setting up the table for the next category. When you finish completing your comments then give the comment cards to either your TC or the rep that is circulating. I do this whenever I fell the need to complete a comment card and I don't hold up the process. If you need to you can write notes on your plate.
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

boogiesnap
09-13-2011, 07:03 PM
Like most, this is frustrating. How can you get better without a critique? How the heck can we make changes and get better if we have no idea what went wrong. Over the weekend on brisket we scored 999 999 997 966 965 975. Personally we thought it was the best brisket we have ever cooked. How the heck am I as a cook to interpret these scores without a comment card. In a sport that is growing fast, maybe too fast how can people excel with out a critique. Some would say practice, practice, practice - what the hell do I practice, besides making that same mistake over and over again?

did you turn in burnt ends AND slices? that could be the reason for 2 clearly different scorings.

SeriousQue
09-13-2011, 08:08 PM
did you turn in burnt ends AND slices? that could be the reason for 2 clearly different scorings.

nope, only slices.

Tack
09-13-2011, 09:48 PM
Okay let me reiterate. I am for comment cards. What I am against is judges who may or may not be fellow cooks telling me on the comment card how to cook my entry