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ModelMaker
07-24-2011, 05:07 PM
After one of the turn ins in Mason City our TC brought over a clamshell (minus meat) with a big ol honkin lettuce core in the middle.
In the other garnish thread I highlighted the term thus indicating it was a violation earning a score of 1 in presentation.
Now not seeing the entry as presented if the lettuce core was under some meat (used for lift only) is it still a violation if not seen during presntation?

12) Garnish is optional. If used, it is limited to chopped,
sliced, shredded or whole leaves of fresh green lettuce, curly
parsley, flat leaf parsley and/or cilantro. Kale, endive, red
tipped lettuce, lettuce cores and other vegetation are
prohibited. Improper garnish shall receive a score of one (1)
on Appearance.

This ruling only concerns garnish in the apperance score. If you can't see it during the presentation is it still a violation if discovered while removing your piece of meat?
I say no.
Your turn Dave.
Ed

Dan - 3eyzbbq
07-24-2011, 05:26 PM
Yes. Its a violation if its in the box

Ron_L
07-24-2011, 05:36 PM
It is still illegal garnish and if it is noticed before the box leaves the table, it would be a DQ. Here is a rep advisory that covers the discovery of a foreign object after appearance judging is over. I think it would also apply to illegal garnish that isn't uncovered until after appearance judging is over...

6.14 Subject: When is Appearance Judging Over

Question: After the judges completed judging an entry for appearance, one of the judges noticed a piece of aluminum foil underneath a piece of meat. Should I go back and disqualify the entry and how?

Opinion: The KCBS rules state that “no aluminum foil, stuffing, toothpicks, skewers of foreign objects may be in a container.” Any entry with a foreign object is to be disqualified and a “1” should be given in all categories. NOTE: If the foil, or a foreign object, were discovered while passing the box, after the Appearance judging, the Contest Rep should instruct the table as to the DQ. Once the entry leaves the table a DQ for foreign object can not occur.

February 17, 2006

Here is another that could also apply if the core weren't found until after the box left the table.

6.16 Subject: Foreign Object Found During Cleanup

Question: As Table Captains were cleaning up between categories, a napkin was found under the lettuce in one of the entries. Do you now go back and disqualify that entry?

Opinion: NO. Once the entry leaves the table, the Appearance judging is over for that category. The Table Captain should report it to the Contest Reps. Reps should report the problem to the team’s chief cook and advise them not to do it in the future, as they would be disqualified is noted at the judging table.

February 17, 2006

ModelMaker
07-24-2011, 05:48 PM
It is still illegal garnish and if it is noticed before the box leaves the table, it would be a DQ. Here is a rep advisory that covers the discovery of a foreign object after appearance judging is over. I think it would also apply to illegal garnish that isn't uncovered until after appearance judging is over...



Here is another that could also apply if the core weren't found until after the box left the table.


The highlighted rule refers only to a lettuce core used as a garnish, after the appearance score is recorded garnish is no longer a factor. If the core becomes visable after the appearance score it too should no longer be in play. It is not classed as a foreign object, thus the score of ones vs a DQ.
Ed

Ron_L
07-24-2011, 06:10 PM
The highlighted rule refers only to a lettuce core used as a garnish, after the appearance score is recorded garnish is no longer a factor. If the core becomes visable after the appearance score it too should no longer be in play. It is not classed as a foreign object, thus the score of ones vs a DQ.
Ed

I understand that, but I'm guessing that the decision process would be the same. It's just a guess, of course :)

BBQ_Mayor
07-24-2011, 06:21 PM
If it's just trimmed into the "core" how much of the "core" is needed to be DQ'ed. To bad this happened in Iowa again. What are we going to do with these judges?

KC_Bobby
07-24-2011, 07:58 PM
I don't know if the core should be illegal per the garnish rule. However, it probably should be illegal per the marking rule.

Smoke'n Ice
07-24-2011, 09:02 PM
As long as the core is from an approved garnish, then where is the problem. If it is legal to use the leaves then it is legal to use the core of the product. A DQ would be incorrect and the person would have a very good case to take to the board.

A number of teams use tight cores of legal lettuce to be the base for their parsley box. Is this in the winter yet?

ParkAvenue_2
07-24-2011, 10:53 PM
If it is legal to use the leaves then it is legal to use the core of the product. A DQ would be incorrect and the person would have a very good case to take to the board.


I just attended a KCBS judging class last week, and per the guidance given in the class, a lettuce core from any product is illegal, regardless of whether the leaves of the product are legal (like iceburg lettuce) or illegal.

The class instructor made a specific point to tell everyone in the class what steps they should take if they found a lettuce core in a box, and those steps conclude with a DQ'ing the box.

Personally, I think the rule regarding lettuce cores is nonsense, but it certainly is a rule thats on the books and obviously is being taught in the judging classes.

Rookie'48
07-24-2011, 11:05 PM
As long as the core is from an approved garnish, then where is the problem. If it is legal to use the leaves then it is legal to use the core of the product. A DQ would be incorrect and the person would have a very good case to take to the board.

A number of teams use tight cores of legal lettuce to be the base for their parsley box. Is this in the winter yet?

The problem is that it is illegal! It's clearly stated that lettuce cores are not allowed as garnish and will earn you a 1 in appearance. If this box would have hit the table that Ed and I were at then we would have a Rep's ruling by now. I would have asked for the Rep because I feel that this is a clear violation of the garnish rules.

Don't even get me started on just dumping all garnish - we'll save that one for the winter time :boxing:.

Hub
07-25-2011, 06:08 AM
Garnish is nonsense. Our competition is about meat, not vegetables. We spend countless hours as cooks fussing over greenery and far too much attention as judges trying to decide what's legal or not. Green stuff is for salad bars, not competition barbeque. End of sermonette :crazy:

Smoke'n Ice
07-25-2011, 07:35 AM
I stand corrected, it specifically says lettuce cores are prohibited. If I take a literal interpetation of this statement, when I pull a leaf off of a head or green leaf lettuce, I am required to remove the white part on the bottom of the leaf as it is considered the core. In addition, I can be dq'ed if I use the inner leaves on the bottom of the box as they are not the proper shade of green. I assume (ass/u/me) there is a rep advisory giving the exact color of a lettuce core portion and where it begins? :roll:

INmitch
07-25-2011, 07:48 AM
Now you're making me nervous. At what point is a leaf not a leaf but part of the core? I'm going to make sure me wife reads this (She does the boxes). Not trying to be a smart a$$ but what if a judge wants to start splitting hairs on this?:confused:

Bunny
07-25-2011, 10:20 AM
The highlighted rule refers only to a lettuce core used as a garnish, after the appearance score is recorded garnish is no longer a factor. If the core becomes visable after the appearance score it too should no longer be in play. It is not classed as a foreign object, thus the score of ones vs a DQ.
Ed
Nope. If it hasn't left the table and was discovered when passing the box around taking out samples, it's a DQ

Bunny
07-25-2011, 10:24 AM
I stand corrected, it specifically says lettuce cores are prohibited. If I take a literal interpetation of this statement, when I pull a leaf off of a head or green leaf lettuce, I am required to remove the white part on the bottom of the leaf as it is considered the core. In addition, I can be dq'ed if I use the inner leaves on the bottom of the box as they are not the proper shade of green. I assume (ass/u/me) there is a rep advisory giving the exact color of a lettuce core portion and where it begins? :roll:
Come on guys. We are not that stupid.:shocked: The lettuce core is just that. The big middle thing in the lettuce. I cook, too and have had some of the white on the leaf. That's part of the lettuce.

If ever it becomes a fine line...we go for the cooker. Just don't put the core in there.

Smoke'n Ice
07-25-2011, 03:31 PM
The core is defined as the inner portion. Another interesting note, the USDA recommends that the outer leaves not be used as they are the ones most contaiminated. They recommend using the inner portion for food safety.

Green leaf does not have as defined a core that a product such as cabbage has. I really think that there needs to be a rep advisory defining what is considered core and this will ensure that there is fairness at each contest. This way a rep only needs the color chart provided by KCBS when making a dq decision.

ModelMaker
07-26-2011, 07:44 AM
Nope. If it hasn't left the table and was discovered when passing the box around taking out samples, it's a DQ


Well Bunny since your a "cook, rep, judge and Certified BBQ Instructor" your as close to an "official" as anyone who has weighed in on this matter
so I'm a little surprized that you are dealing a DQ.
The rule as written is specific to garnish and appeaance scoring resulting in scores of ONE.
You are DQing as if it were being treated as a foreign object.
Once appearance scoring is done the lettuce core is a non-item in the box if it becomes visable later while removing samples, it would not change the appearance score.
Just for grins and giggles why don't you pose this question to as many reps as possible and lets see how the cookie crumbles?
Ed

Bunny
07-26-2011, 08:05 AM
Well Bunny since your a "cook, rep, judge and Certified BBQ Instructor" your as close to an "official" as anyone who has weighed in on this matter
so I'm a little surprized that you are dealing a DQ.
The rule as written is specific to garnish and appeaance scoring resulting in scores of ONE.
You are DQing as if it were being treated as a foreign object.
Once appearance scoring is done the lettuce core is a non-item in the box if it becomes visable later while removing samples, it would not change the appearance score.
Just for grins and giggles why don't you pose this question to as many reps as possible and lets see how the cookie crumbles?
Ed

I didn't mean I would DQ it across the board. It gets a one in appearance only. Even if I did ask all the reps, their answer still has to be DQ on appearance. It's the rule. AND, if it's found in the box BEFORE it leaves the table, it still gets a DQ in appearance. It's the rule. Even if I disagree with you, I still have to follow the rules.

All in all, I know that the garnish rule talk takes away from the meat discussions but if I don't follow the rules, guess who's butt's going to get chewed out in the end?

ModelMaker
07-26-2011, 08:20 AM
Ok I give!!
If I ever run across a lettuce core I will call for the rep and let them make the call.
As it should be....
Ed

HoDeDo
07-26-2011, 08:37 AM
The highlighted rule refers only to a lettuce core used as a garnish, after the appearance score is recorded garnish is no longer a factor. If the core becomes visable after the appearance score it too should no longer be in play. It is not classed as a foreign object, thus the score of ones vs a DQ.
Ed

Ed, if the density of a core is used to improve the appearance of the meat (hold up a crumbling piece for example, that can't support itself on just leaves or parsley...) -- that means it could have helped someone get a better appearance score. 90% of the garnish is hidden by the meat, until you start taking meat out. so I would expect you wouldnt see a core until after it is scored.

Ok I give!!
If I ever run across a lettuce core I will call for the rep and let them make the call. As it should be....Ed

Bunny is correct, because a core is specifically called out in the rules as not part of legal garnish, it is a foreign object in the box and gets a 1 for appearance. Treated just like a sliver of foil or a toothpick or anything else you might use in a box you arent supposed to. It's never been a point of contention that I am aware of... pretty straight forward.

But since it can "help" appearance, if you find it as you are removing meat, it needs to be scored as such. Sometimes it could also be construed as marking depending on how it was used. (similar to a rosette, if the core was sculpted at all, with some leaf left on it.)

MACK - it definitely does not need to go to the Board for a ruling. The cooks all know you dont put one in... if they have listened to the CD or read the manual... if they haven't, it only happens once :doh: No ruling needed.